[115]FalKon;1333359 said:
I will give you the fact that Mickie did have the crowd on her side at the WM match, however... fans of this generation seem to undertake a rebellious attitude &/or more informed about the wrestling world with the internet/radio shows/TV shows & the fact wrestlers appear out of kayfabe in the real world. They seem to be not cheering the faces or booing the heels as strictly as the company would like. People of the older generation seem to prefer the heelish characters where they berate them instead of the guys who tell them they are great. Mickie did have some role in getting over with the crowd, but the crowds have already been starting this rebel act towards the face/heel statuses.
That still doesn't mean she wasn't a threat to the division in the first place. Even Mickies gimmick was a threat, it wasn't just her wrestling skills. It was the constant attacks on Ashley, she was this unpredictable, obsessed fan girl, who went over girls like Victoria. She even attacked Victoria on her debut, and Victoria was a some what legitmate contender back then. And I agree the crowds did start to rebel, but Mickie even said so herself, the crowd was on her side because she went out there, and gave them a good time. Despite her being a heel, they found her funny, lovable, and that is why they cheered for her - which once again, is thanks to Mickie.
Trish taking the job, nobody really cared it was her. But, they did care that Trish took the job for Mickie. Without the notch under her belt to defeat the best in the business & win the strap at the biggest stage of them all, Mickie would have had to complete more of a workload in order to become the sensation she is today. Mickie could have easily done it, but it would have taken longer.
I can agree with that. But it's pure speculation as well. Winning probably did put her over, but not as much as you would like to think. What i'm saying, is the stuff she did back then, is not the reason as to why she is over today. You're also forgetting that Mickie was jobbed the fuck out in 2007, and she had to be built back all over again; which was not down to Trish Stratus - Mickie built herself up again, despite lacking the psycho lesbian gimmick, and she still got 100% back over with the crowds; that fact alone proves that Mickie can, and did do it by herself, especially when for once, she has booking on her side.
As for the Mickie/Trish dominance, this was an even situation as you have stated. Trish had allies in Ashley to help defend herself, whom Mickie kidnapped. Trish defeated Mickie at New Years Resolution whilst Mickie got the Mania win. Trish built up her momentum going into the match by not quitting with MJ, whilst MJ defeated other high profile diva's like Victoria for momentum. It was basically a toss between who was dominating until the Mania match. Both girls were considerably even with each other. It was up to the outcome of this match to decide whether or not Trish should pass the torch. Mickie received the torch from Trish. So, Trish helped Mickie into the sensation she is today.
Trish never had one over on Mickie. Think about it. Mickie was always there, psychologically, Mickie was under Trishes skin. I'm gonna look like a fool mentioning this, but think kayfabe; Mickie was texting Trish literally hundreds of times a day, she was following her to interviews, she was attacking Trishes friends, and almost came close to getting the title before; Mickie always had the upper-hand. We knew what Trish was capable of, but we the 'WWE fans' did not know what a little miss Mickie James was capable of. And the momentum really shifted when Mickie delivered Trishes own finisher, onto her right before the PPV; she even delivered a DDT to Trish - it was only after the 'mania match Trish got momentum, and that is how your typical feud goes anyway.
This is true about Mickie James. She had the skills prior to the WWE to make it in the business. However, is the indy circuits the E? Is TNA the E? Is ROH the E? Only WWE is the E & the E has a particular style of conduct in the ring that they like to embrace. They saw MJ as a great potential star for the future & needed to push her up to the rankings she deserved. How was could someone who has satisfied the wrestling criteria who has some experience adapt to the new environment known as the E? Give them a veteran of the business to give them the rub & the experience. Trish was the one to do this over the feud & helped propel Mickie.
Oh Falkon, Falkon, FalKon; OVW was WWE's development back then. Think, Sunshine. That is where they taught you the skills, that is where they taught you how to wrestle 'WWE Style'. And actually, TNA, WEW, and ROH helped with selling ability, psychology, promo ability - all of which, Mickie uses today, and used in her feud with Stratus. Mickie already knew how to work the WWE style, not only had she been wrestling for five or six years, she had been a fan her whole life. The moves she did on the circuit, are very similar to the moves she did in the 'E; Missile Dropkick, Running and Diving Crossbody, Snapmare Drop Kick, DDT, ect. I still don't understand how Trish gave Mickie the 'rub' in terms of improvement, (debuting, I do get), but Mickie was already better than her in every single aspect when it all came down to actual ability.
For the Mickie James argument, you have kind of proved my point. Trish DID spread the foundation for the sensation of Mickie James with the feud. She was the one who took Mickie by her wing throughout the whole time & helped her develop into becoming a great diva wrestler. Who else in the division could be able to give the same effect that Trish did? As you stated, Victoria could not have done this as she was not good or experienced enough to perform the role. Lita was the only other viable option, but still did not have the status required to give Mickie to ultimate bump she received.
You misunderstood my point about Victoria. I was saying that Victoria, despite working with Trish and Lita, could never fully get over with the crowd like Mickie did - why? Because Victoria did not have the skills that Mickie posessed. She did not have that undeniably, perky, infectious charisma that Mickie had - the charisma which made the whole thing work. You need to give Mickie alot of credit for the whole feud, because most, if not, all the things in that feud which where entertaining, came from Mickie herself. Every wrestler needs an angle to start with to get them over; this was Mickies, and despite that, Mickie was not the only person who worked with Trish upon their debut.
History is a factor of judging a wrestler's worth, but not the only thing that is taken into account. However, with the portrayal of Mickies character alongside her going over Trish immensely aided her in creating value to her name. She was a rookie that defeated the greatest in the business... don't tell me that is not worth something huge.
Of course it's worth something huge, but if Mickie didn't have the skills to start with, she wouldn't have been booked by the company in the first place - why did they choose Mickie? Because she was already capable of getting over, hence her pops at many of the house shows she wrestled at. Again, i'll go back to my point, Mickie turned into a jobber, and re-established herself, without the aid of Trish Stratus.
All true here. I am not denying the fact that Mickie is able to pull off the character & could get herself to the top on her own if she had to. She has the criteria to become the greatest the world has ever seen. But, the topic is linked to Trish being a main factor in pushing her to the top. The fact of the matter is that Trish helped Mickie get there. Who do you think taught her to learn how to perfect the Trish #1 fan by mimicking her every move including the finisher moves like the Stratusfaction & the Chick Kick? Trish did. Who do you think aided Mickie in getting her noticed & making people give a damn about her? Trish did as the demand for womens wrestling was in its peak area for the generation & she was the biggest draw of them all. Having an association with someone of the name like Trish worked wonders for Mickie. One of the main reasons that Rosa isn't as big as Mickie was is because the demand of the division was low when she was brought in & the name Beth Phoenix was not as huge as Trish.
Beth Phoenix is still a big name though, she's a multiple womens champion, and no diva, from memory, has gone over her on TV with a clean finish - and Melinas shitty code green doesn't count because it's more or less a roll up anyway. Beth is still a driving force in the division, and Rosa still came into the company in an angle, a storyline, which re-enforces my point,
booking. Alot of people fall apart after their pushes, but Mickie didn't, despite losing a number of her matches, she showed promise prior coming to Raw, and she didn't have Trish on her side then. I'd also like to point out, that it is one thing getting over with the crowd, but it's another thing maintaining your popularity.
Again, Mickie already had the skills before entering the E. That is quite simple. For God sakes, she competed in the mens division matches & legitimately wrestled dudes. She even competed in the Orange Clockwork House of Fun match in TNA twice! However, with most wrestlers that are brought up from the developmental roster after a sufficient amount of training learning the art of the WWE's style of wrestling something is missing. When Mickie first started out, she did perform well in her matches & promos for a new person, but was not that particularly great. Once the feud with Trish got to the point where the two started attacking each other, Mickie found her niche in the E's wrestling world. Trish was there to help her & assisted her by getting Mickie over, which I have stated time & time again.
Exactly! She had the skills, which is
why she got over. Oh Falkon my dear, a ray of hope for you. What was Mickie missing upon her debut? An Angle; check. Wrestling skills; check. Selling skills; check. A character; check. Psychology; check. Charisma; check. And Mickie was already great with her promos from the start; Halloween Battle Royal? I was pissing myself with laughter watching that at the time, it was hilarious, and the crowd loved it when Mickie came up with a title which was made out of carboard, it was so surreal, but it was there, somebody dressed as Trish, how often do you see that? It's different, it's new. Trish was there to help Mickie, but when you really think about it, what did Trish do? With the exception of 'mania, it was Mickie making those matches funny, it was Mickie making those promos funny, when was Trish exactly entertaining? The only thing I smirked at, was when Mickie saved Trish in the battle royal, and Mickie her thumbs up (which was also really funny, if I do say so myself), and Trish shrugged, smiled, and held up the title.
Neither Trish nor Mickie carried the matches. Both females were in charge & helped each other out whilst in the ring. When it was time for Trish to attack, Mickie helped her out. When it was time for Mickie to attack, Trish helped her out. It was that simple. For this to have occurred, Trish needed to be able to perfect the matches more so than Mickie as the selling point for making Mickie a threat & a legitimate contender in the division was a must. If Trish could sell Mickies offense, even if it was bad... it would still have elevated her. Sure, Mickie needed to be able to perfect her side of the bargain, but when it comes down to somebody in this situation to perfect everything for someone to gain the rub & become the next great one, it was Trish. I mean, did you see the botched Kick at the end of the Mania22 match done by Mickie? Trish sold the botched move very well & essentially helped Mickie.
But you just said Trish carried Mickie through the matches, and then you go and say she didn't? FalKon, if you're going to debate with me, don't contradict yourself. I'm kiddng, but Trish never helped Mickie with the attacks, unless you oh so desperately want to count the selling. But you do make a good point with the fact Trish did indeed make Mickie selling the point, I can agree with that, however, Mickie also had to throw in her two cents there as well. It's all good Trish molding the match, but if Mickie couldn't capture the crowds attention, they wouldn't care, which would have resulted in a depush, or even her not getting over. And by the way, it was Trishes fault the Stratusfaction was botched, Trish buckled and fell, that really helped Mickie didn't it? Botching the finish of Mickies 'mania debut on the grandest stage of them all, but accidents happen, and hopefully that slight little mistake, proves that Trish had many flaws, which can't be masked, and tbf, it was Mickie making that match good in the first place; Trish was just selling, it was Mickie who made the match what it was; she was screaming like a Banshee on the ring-apron, playing to the crowd, and really, she just went out there and gave it her all; the crowd loved it.
True until you played the card at the end of the paragraph by using the cocky, I have one technique. Sister, wrong move. Never put your Queen in a position to take the opponents King when there are still options for the opponent to take away your Queen.
You play Chess? Maybe we can play it on MSN sometime, after I win this debate. lols, I kid.
Yes, Mickie did everything herself as a wrestler. I have said this. Her charisma, her skills, her looks... all done by Mickie James, not Trish Stratus. Despite the fact that I am going to sound like a broken record, Trish helped Mickie along the way to become one of the biggest stars in the business. So too did all of the other women who stood in the way of Alexis Laree in the previous indy promotions.
That's absoloutely true, but the point you seem to be missing, is the fact that if Mickie did not have all those skills, the people would not be able to help her in the first place. If somebody didn't have the strength to quit smoking, nobody would be
able to help them - it all comes back down to the indivudal themselves.
Just because a wrestler has the skills to get over by themselves, does not mean that they can get to the top. Just because a wrestler needs someone else to make them look good, does not mean they can't get to the top. It takes two to tango with any feud. Placing the likes of Mickie against someone of Trish Stratus will work wonders for the newcomer Mickie in giving her the upstart. Thus, giving her the main foundation as to why Micke James it the sensation she is today.
Charisma is key. Trish was usually in the ****ty diva segments, and the same-old 'Omgz, your hot, wanna date?' storylines; she'd never done an angle like this, so who is even to say, she knew how to make it work? Mickie did not have a 'guy' crush on Trish, she wasn't jealous, or a ****, she was inlove with Trish, and Mickie was just left in the end, wanting to destroy her and take the title, it wouldn't have been as sucessful as it was, it Mickie didn't have the charisma to make it work; which is one of the points i'm trying to make. I do agree that Trish painted the foundation, i've already said this, but you seem to be in the belief that it was all down to Trish in the end, give credit where credit is due, Mickie held her own, through-out that feud, but there's another point i'd like to make, which i've stated twice already - Mickie was jobbed in 2007, alot as well when you really think about it, and, she had to remake herself, without the storyline, without the angle, and why did she pull it off? Because she still had the very things that made her over in the first place.
Remember, the question asked if TRISH STRATUS helped MICKIE JAMES gain success & become the sensation she is today with the company. I believe I did not mention ALEXIS LAREE anywhere in the debate question. Look before you leap, Rebecca. If I could steal your line... think, sunshine!
No, no, no; the question was; 'Is Trish Stratus the
MAIN reason why Mickie is what she is today?'. And the answer is, no. And Alexis Laree is relevent, she was a psychotic girl back then too, back in OVW, she was doing the same promos, moves, ect, there, that she did in the feud with Trish. As i've stated like a million times, Trish was the reason to debut, but that doesn't mean she should get all the credit, because every single wrestler has to have a a reason to start in the 'E in the first place; Trish was Mickies. Then once she debuted, Mickie made a name for herself, and not only got herself over, but initally, she maintained her over-ness.
Mickie James is like Randy Orton. Both had enormous potential when the first came into the training with the WWE. The company knew that these wrestlers could be pushed quickly to the top as they can handle the pressure & have the skills. When they entered, Mickie James became associated with Trish as her fan, then a friend, then an obsession... then enemies. Though the time to take Orton to be associated with Evolution was a lot longer, the same process happened. He became a protege of HHH/Flair, then a friend, then a family member... then enemies. Without these associations with the biggest players in the business & going over some of the biggest names in the business during their tenture with their 'friends,' both Orton & Mickie would not have been as big as they were today. Sure, it would have happened eventually, but not as quick.
This isn't relevent. Mickie was made into a jobber when it came to Beth and Candices pushes, they then bought Mickie back, which ruined the momentum and sequence from the feud with Trish. See what i'm saying?
I can guaran-damn-tee that Mickie would have taken a longer time to reach for the stars & become as popular as she is today without Trish Stratus. By namesake, Trish was the greatest. It does not matter if she was good at being a wrestler, she was a huge asset to the company. She was proclaimed at being the best in the business at that point in time, held the womens title numerous occassions & was spearheading the division. Having someone of this type of association work with someone who is a rookie that is not familiar with the art wrestling style of the WWE must say wonders to many people that having a year long feud with the best must mean she is the best of the future.
It may have taken longer, but within five years, she still would have been the pioneer of the division. If she wasn't going to debut with Trish, she was going to debut with CM Punk; a guy who she worked with throughout her indy career, they already had the chemistry; and look what Punk is today. Mickie was not a rookie, she had already been in OVW since 2004, before being called up, she had perfected the craft they call 'WWE Style'. To the crowd she was some new girl, but, at the end of the day, they didn't know much about Mickies past, Mickie had been watching Trish for years, and to them, Mickie was already this crazed girl who knew what she was doing in the ring.
It is comparable to The Miz. John Cena is spearheading the Main Event scene, held the title numerous times & is considered to be the most reliable worker/face of the company. May not be the best wrestler, but he knows how to put on great matches & get people over. What was the Miz before Cena on RAW? A wrestler destined to get lost in the midcard shuffle. Sure, he has the charisma, the look & the following with decent ring skills that could make him hit the big time... but without the Cena association, he would have had to take a different path in getting him noticed & it would of been longer no doubt. It is exactly the same with Mickie James. Without Trish, she would not of gotten the push so quickly as she did & would have had to find a different way to the big time.
In the matches between Miz and Cena, The Miz barely got any offense, they're not comparable, because The Miz and Cena where not in a psychoctic storyline, not only that, but The Miz didn't even have a crush on Cena - for Maryses sake I hope anyway. Cena didn't really do anything until a promo prior their match at The Bash; Miz was establishing himself through beating other talent, and doing promos; which is the same thing Mickie did. There's also a big difference between midcard and the main eventers; the womens division in the WWE, is really too small for that, they didn't have many divas then, let alone many who could actually put on a solid match. I do agree, what Miz did, talking and bitching about Cena got him noticed, but that's how you do things, to get noticed, you have to do something big. I can partially agree, it would have taken longer with Mickie, but the truth is, we'll never know.
I can say this. Say if Trish had nothing to do with Mickie James. Would anybody care about her as much? Having matches with random diva's generates the same amount of interest as todays random matches, next to nothing unfortunately. She may have gotten some looks as to her skills, but without that big feud with someone special of the division... a different path for Mickie would have been chosen that took a longer duration to complete was inevitable.
If Trish wasn't going to debut with Mickie, then the other option was actually Punk; Mickie had said this herself as well. Would people care about her, if she was teaming with Punk, as a tag team? Probably. They could have even won the tag titles together, would people care then? You bet'cha. Mickie was supposed to debut five times before her angle with Trish, so really, the 'it would take longer to get where she is today', isn't relevent, because she would have debuted before the time when the angle was supposed to start, and using hindsight, it 'makes up for lost time'.
Compare this with Beth Phoenix, when she came into the fray the second time around. Only a few people remembered her, so this can count as a debut. She did not receive the same respect as Mickie did due to the fact that Phoenix was not placed into the same type of feud Mickie was involved with. Beth is an excellent wrestler, has the whole package when it comes to being a diva. What happened? She gained some sort of a following & did her best to rise to the occasion & rose to dominance. She kept the ball rolling after her feud with Mickie James & reigned dominant. Where is she now? Lost in the shuffle. Despite Beth was buried with the Santino/Santina incident, Mickie was given the same failed gimmicks/storylines with the likes of Murdoch & the like.
Your point about Beth debuting again, is some what similar to Mickie. After her angle with Trish, Mickie was a jobber, i'm talking about the end of 2006; and she basically had to make a name for herself, all over again, Mickie had to get herself over with the crowd, and she managed it; the Trish angle was now already lost in the shuffle. The difference between Beth and Mickie though, is Mickie has a massive amount of charisma; Beth does not. Beth is only ever exciting in the ring, when she's lifting up two of her opponents. Her selling ability is awful, and it generally looks like she's stumbling across the ring, drunk. Her in ring psychology is none-existant, and frankly, her 'psycho' character, sucked, in comparison to Mickies. And you're right, Beth is a joke now. And you know why? Because she cannot maintain her overness when she isn't booked correctly, whilst Mickie can; which is the main reason Mickie is the sensation she is today.
So Beth Phoenix's career has been the exact same as Mickie James in terms of what had happened. They are both great wrestlers who have no doubt in being able to carry the division. The difference? Mickie was involved with an interesting feud with Trish, someone with great value to her name, to help Mickie rise to the top. What was Beth's equivalent feud with to help her get to the top BOTH times round in the division? Mickie James. What happened to Beth now? So, if there isn't someone with the amount of experience, namesake & the nature of Trish around to help build another young talented individual, they will need to get themselves over by themselves & will take a lot longer to rise to the occassion.
Not really, their careers have been completely different. Beths was more of a dominant career, whilst Mickies, only before 'Mania, was dominant. Mickie was always used as the side-kick in tag matches when she was teaming with Candice, she was often made a fool of, like being blind folded and forced to wrestle, and she often took the pin when it came to tag matches in general; not to mention, she was always the one losing to Candices future-opponents, to make them look tougher. Has Beth ever done that? Not really. Your point about Beth could be said the same for Mickie last year, you know, when she was being squashed, and made out to be a jobber? Mickie last year, and some what this year, is what Beth is now; despite having the so called 'rub' from Trish.
Throughout my whole argument, I have covered these points in detail & to the best of knowledge. I do not want to keep repeating my points again. So, I have placed this argument at the end to reminder you to make sense of my whole rebuttal from the above points.
You tell me it's over, after I spent near enough an hour on a reply? Harsh. But seriously, yeah, it's been a good debate and stuff, definitely one of the very few ones i've actually enjoyed, more-so, because it was about Mickie, and well, she is just awesome.
I am liking this discussion Rebecca, but there is a difference between me & you. You are more of a Mickie James fan than I, but I am more adept with the womens division overall than you. Let's see if knowledge on the sole character will outdo the knowledge of the division/business. Tough arguments so far, very good. The hardest debate yet.
Maybe, but before this does end, i'll just say this. I do agree that Trish helped, but not as much as people tend to think. Trish just gave Mickie the starting point in her career, but at the end of the day, every wrestler has to have one. So should every wrestler who helped the 'new wrestler' start, get all the credit? Absoloutely not. You also have to remember, if Mickie didn't have what it took to make the angle with Trish work, then it wouldn't have been successful. Trish had never been in a storyline particularly like this one before, so who is to say, she even knew how to work it? But despite it all, as i've stated already, Mickie was on the back burner during 2007 and even during 2008 after she lost the title, and every single time, she had to make a name for herself once again, she survived it, and still maintained her popularity, and got herself back on top; even without a storyline, and even without Trish Stratus. Getting popular in the first place is a challange, but staying popular, is an even bigger one. And Trish only ever helped slightly with the first challange, but the second? All down to Mickie. And
that, is why she is the marvel, she is today.
