Could Jim Niedhart have "made it" as a solo wrestler?

[ServantofTwilight]

First, to answer your question. Of course he could have. Anyone could if pushed right and worked with properly. The Honkytonk Man had a long push and is still the longest reigning IC champ ever. And he sucked.

Neidhart would have had to turn heel, probably reunite with Jimmy Hart and feud with Bret, saying he was pissed about the break up. After the feud he could have acted as an enforcer for Jimmy Hart. He was never going to be champ but could have had IC title shots. With Jimmy Hart helping with promos I think his weaknesses would have been protected.

Unfortunately the worse thing the WWF could have done was leave him as a face. There was nowhere for him to go at that point except into tag teaming with Owen. Its too bad.

That question being answered there have been stated some things about Neidhart that I don't agree with. I would like to go off on a tangent and respond to some of them. And maybe take a trip back into the past to revisit a time when Neidhart could have had a good singles run.

I guess I'm in the minority and say no.

Neidhart was good as the power man in a tag-team environment but he was limited in the ring with his ability and I don't think Neidhart could have gotten over, much like Animal, D-Von Dudley etc. he was a tag-team specialist and the guy spent his time there for that reason, as a singles competitor, he would have been the veteran to put guys over, almost a jobber.

I agree. He was only 6'2 which is rather short for a near 300 pounder. A singles guy at least. He was the perfect "power" in a "power and finesse" type tag team like like the Hart Foundation. He could go toe to toe with the likes of the Road Warriors, Demolition, and Powers of Pain. As far as a singles push? I don't know. It depends on your definition of a push. Maybe string together a couple of wins on Superstars of Wrestling or Primetime Wrestling? Sure I could see it. But an upper mid card push or ever a title match push? No way. He just couldn't command the type of attention that a big name singles star should. So solid tag team wrestler but he needed a guy like Bret to make that tag team main-event caliber and MAYBE a lower card JTTS or gets the occasional win guy but that's it.

I always viewed him as rightfully placed as a lower mid carder. He could have possibly turned heel and a had mini program with Bret for the ic title during his first run, although Bret had good competition during that era.

The highest I could see Jim going would be a feud with Bret in 95. Jim had his heel run with Owen and. Oils have continued that into 95 when Bret didn't have anyone to really work with.

Neidhart, I always saw as the weak link of the Hart foundation stable. I think he's lucky to have gone as far as he did.

The irony here is that Neidhart was the successful singles wrestler and Hart needed him. If not for Neidhart then...

Come with me now thru the mists of time to the WWF in January of 1985. A new wrestler has appeared on the scene, first managed by Mr. Fuji and then by Jimmy Hart. His name is Jim Neidhart. Mr. Neidhart comes to the WWF after successful runs in Stampede, NJPW, GCW, Mid-South Wrestling, CWA and CWF. He is billed as a crazy, powerhouse wrestler. His nickname is The Anvil because he threw an anvil the farthest in a strongman competition.

Also around this time a young wrestler has come to the WWF named Bret Hart. He has only wrestled in Stampede and in NJPW. He has no gimmick( he was given a cowboy gimmick but refused ), no manager, is not good on the mike and is unknown to WWF crowds.

So, while Neidhart is finding success and is winning week in and week out on TV, Bret is floundering, winning some but also losing.

Bret asks WWF management if he could turn heel and form a tag team with Neidhart. The WWF refuses. Bret is close to leaving the WWF when they relent and the team of Jim Neidhart and Bret Hart is formed. They are a member of Jimmy Hart's Hart Foundation, which is what Hart's group of wrestlers were called. The two of them wouldn't take the name as their own for some time yet.

So, if the WWF does not relent, if Neidhart refuses, if Jimmy Hart refuses, then it is possible Bret leaves and the history of wrestling would be very different.

It was Neidhart who raised Hart up, not the other way around. It was Neidhart who gave the team credibility early on, not Hart. Neidhart was the foundation of their success, not Hart. While it is true Hart went on to have the better overall singles career, lets give Neidhart a little credit, shall we.

Now, lets at this point pretend Hart left and Neidhart continued on as a singles wrestler. What would have happened. Well...

As with all heels at that time eventually Neidhart would have worked a program with Hogan. Neidhart would get title shots, he would probably win a couple matches by DQ or countout, Hogan would then start winning matches, but by roll ups or interference backfiring. After about three monthes, give or take, Hogan would start winning by the big boot and legdrop and Neidharts program with Hogan would be done. At this point Santana would have regained the IC title so I imagine Neidhart would work a program with him to finish the year. After Santana's feud with the more technically sound Valentine, Neidhart would be a good change of pace. Plus both Neidhart and Valentine would be managed by Jimmy Hart so it would work out nicely. After this he would probably start to fall down the ladder so after being in the battleroyal at Wrestlemania 2 I imagine he would either form a tag team, like Valentine had, or leave.

Leave? No one leaves the WWF.

Actually, they did. Back then you had alot of choices. You could go to smaller promotions like Stampede, WCCW, Central States, Portland, Memphis, CWA, CWF or WWC.

Are you crazy? No one would go big then go small.

Tell that to Brody, McDaniels, The Sheepherders, DiBiase, The Fantastics, Eddie Gilbert and Barry windham.

Or...you could stay big and go AJPW, NJPW, NWA or, where I think he would have worked best, the AWA.

AWA? No one would leave the WWF to go there.

Tell that to Henning, Stevens, Rose, Snuka and Sgt Slaughter( who did so at the height of his popularity and while he was a GI Joe character ).

Had Neidhart gone he would still need a manager so I see him teaming with Rose, Somers and Martel. He could act as an enforcer for the tag champs while challenging Bockwinkel for the World Title. This would actually work well as Bockwinkel needed credible challengers at the time.

After that who knows but I could see a good singles career that would have last all told about 15 years or so.

Or, as always, I could be wrong.

Funny part about this is that prior to coming to the WWF Jim Neidhart had a decent solo career.

Thank you.

 

[Makaveli31]

The irony here is that Neidhart was the successful singles wrestler and Hart needed him. If not for Neidhart then...

Come with me now thru the mists of time to the WWF in January of 1985. A new wrestler has appeared on the scene, first managed by Mr. Fuji and then by Jimmy Hart. His name is Jim Neidhart. Mr. Neidhart comes to the WWF after successful runs in Stampede, NJPW, GCW, Mid-South Wrestling, CWA and CWF. He is billed as a crazy, powerhouse wrestler. His nickname is The Anvil because he threw an anvil the farthest in a strongman competition.

Also around this time a young wrestler has come to the WWF named Bret Hart. He has only wrestled in Stampede and in NJPW. He has no gimmick( he was given a cowboy gimmick but refused ), no manager, is not good on the mike and is unknown to WWF crowds.

So, while Neidhart is finding success and is winning week in and week out on TV, Bret is floundering, winning some but also losing.

All of this does not matter a single bit. It does matter WHY they were put together or that Jim (at the time) was a more accomplished singles wrestler, he have to deal with what happened and how the team ultimately played out and Bret was the lynch pin. Sure, Niedhart may have been the bigger singles going in but it didn't end up that way. Bret quickly overshadowed Niedhart to the point where Bret was supposed to take on Ricky Steamboat at WM 2 and was given a semi-singles push in 1988.
So yes, Niedhart needed Bret ALOT more than Bret needed Jim. Those are the facts.

A program with Hogan? Really?? Hogan was feuding with Piper, then King Kong Bundy, then Andre, then DiBiase, then Savage, then Earthquake, then Sgt. Slaughter so where does the Anvil exactly fit? I'm not saying he wouldn't have a match or two but let's punp the brakes on a six month program.

 

[ServantofTwilight]

All of this does not matter a single bit. It does matter WHY they were put together or that Jim (at the time) was a more accomplished singles wrestler, he have to deal with what happened and how the team ultimately played out and Bret was the lynch pin. Sure, Niedhart may have been the bigger singles going in but it didn't end up that way. Bret quickly overshadowed Niedhart to the point where Bret was supposed to take on Ricky Steamboat at WM 2 and was given a semi-singles push in 1988.
So yes, Niedhart needed Bret ALOT more than Bret needed Jim. Those are the facts.

I acknowledged that Bret got bigger. My point was that in the beginning not only was Neidhart bigger but tagging with Bret saved him from quitting or becoming a jobber.

Yeah, he would have had a match with Steamboat and he would have jobbed to Steamboat. Plus it was his tagging with Neidhart that started getting him noticed. And I maintain that had the team never formed Neidhart would have been fine. Not so much Bret.

A program with Hogan? Really?? Hogan was feuding with Piper, then King Kong Bundy, then Andre, then DiBiase, then Savage, then Earthquake, then Sgt. Slaughter so where does the Anvil exactly fit? I'm not saying he wouldn't have a match or two but let's punp the brakes on a six month program.

Yeah, a program with Hogan, just like all new heels usually did. And it would have gone just like I said. Hogan did feud with Piper but their feud was never all inclusive. During the time period after Wrestlemania Piper feuded with Orndorf. The Bundy feud did not kick into gear until Feb of 1986. So you are telling me between March of 1985 and February of 1986 he didn't have time for a program with Neidhart?

Also, I said about three months, give or take. Where are you pulling six months out of. Lets say they start in April, go three months with it ending like I said( like most Hogan programs did in the 80s ). That finishes it in June with Santana regaining the IC title on July 6th. Just in time to fend off new challenges from Neidhart.

 

[Makaveli31]

Well it doesn't refute my original point that Bret Hart made the Hart Foundation a main event caliber tag team. We'll obviously never know how Jim would've turned out without Bret but we can make a pretty good educated guess based on what transpired. Again, who was "bigger " at the start is irrelevant and there is no disputing who became the bigger star. As far as jabbing to Steamboat who cares?!? Bret was the type of wrestler who could become even greater doing jobs i.e. with Bulldog, Owen, Shawn etc.....no one would remember Bret did job for Steamboat.

LOL that's your own Time line. You said AFTER three months Hogan would START winning by the leg drop that takes the program between 5-6 months. So you're talking house shows??? There was no PPV between '85 and '86 plus Hogan was feuding with the likes of Nikolai Volkoff, Kamala, Killer Kahn and Terry Funk during those months and they were BIGGER draws than a brand new Anvil who people didn't even know of.

 

[ServantofTwilight]

LOL that's your own Time line. You said AFTER three months Hogan would START winning by the leg drop that takes the program between 5-6 months. So you're talking house shows??? There was no PPV between '85 and '86 plus Hogan was feuding with the likes of Nikolai Volkoff, Kamala, Killer Kahn and Terry Funk during those months and they were BIGGER draws than a brand new Anvil who people didn't even know of.

I'll try again. Three months give or take. Not five or six. At the end of three months Hogan would win every match by big boot/leg drop.

Of course house shows. Even Wrestlemania 1 was not on PPV. Hogan's first two years as champ was done at house shows. We didn't have a PPV a month plus Raw and Smackdown.

Yes he feuded with them. But not at this time. Volkoff was tagging. Kamala left the WWF at this point and went to the AWA, wrestling at Superclash and WrestleRock, not returning until mid 1986, Khan was not in the WWF, he would return in 1987 and Funk worked some with Hogan but was in a heated feud with Junkyard Dog. Yes he would have wrestled Neidhart.

This was how it was done back then. New heel came in. Wrestled on TV for awhile and at some house shows, often against jobbers. Eventually he would work against Hogan, first matching him and maybe picking up a countout win. Now people took him seriously. Next Hogan would start winning, but not by the leg drop. I have a match from Toronto on VHS of Hogan beating Orndorf by rolling thru a crossbody. On the one Hogan DVD he beats Savage by raising his leg as Savage did his leap and catching Savage in the face. Hogans winning but the heel is still a threat. People needed to believe Hogan could lose so they would come out. Finally, as feud winds down Hogan wins by big boot/legdrop. Travel from city to city, this process would take about three months, give or take. Meaning, at the end of three months it was most likely done. Then the heel moved on. Same thing happened with Savage. Won a couple by dq or countout, lost some, Hogan then pinned him regularly, then Savage was back in the midcard going after Santana.

Of course we will never know for sure, but seeing how this was the way it was done I don't see why suddenly it would change just to help your argument.

 

[Makaveli31]

So your basic argument is Niedhart would have been part of the long one of monster heels fed to Hogan in the mid-80's at non-televized house shows. That's not really "making it" as a singles. We just mentioned Kamala and Killer Khanna in the same breath. Not really world class territory. I never disputed Anvil could be good for a few house show runs but we have guys on here talking about him being a potential PPV draw and that's not the case. We all know you could have put a grizzly bear in the ring with Hogan in the mid 80s and it would've sold out. Not much of a stretch there.

 

[stingray11214]

He would have made a great power heel in Japan. I could see either Baba or Inoki trying to bring The Anvil over. WWF had enough of those types that Neidhart had nowhere to go except in a tag team. It would have been a great addition to Steve Williams, Terry Gordy and Stan Hansen.

 

[Makaveli31]

Leave? No one leaves the WWF.

Actually, they did. Back then you had alot of choices. You could go to smaller promotions like Stampede, WCCW, Central States, Portland, Memphis, CWA, CWF or WWC.

No one did that voluntarily LOL. You made more being a low card job guy in the WWF than a top guy at these dying promotions at that time.

Are you crazy? No one would go big then go small.

Tell that to Brody, McDaniels, The Sheepherders, DiBiase, The Fantastics, Eddie Gilbert and Barry windham.

Brody was a a different type of animal. He didn't get along with ANY promoters hence the reason why he jumped from territory to territory and eventually wound up in Puerto Rico where he was ultimate killed. DiBiase left the early WWF before it went national in 1984. He was not going back after he became "The Million Dollar Man" same goes for Eddie Gilbert, the Sheepherders and anyone else can name.

AWA? No one would leave the WWF to go there.

Tell that to Henning, Stevens, Rose, Snuka and Sgt Slaughter( who did so at the height of his popularity and while he was a GI Joe character ).

The AWA was dying the mid-'80's. Once those guys had the opportunity to go back to the WWF they all jumped.

 

[Makaveli31]

He would have made a great power heel in Japan. I could see either Baba or Inoki trying to bring The Anvil over. WWF had enough of those types that Neidhart had nowhere to go except in a tag team. It would have been a great addition to Steve Williams, Terry Gordy and Stan Hansen.
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Are talking fact or fiction here? We all know that Jim Niedhart was not responsible enough to be on his own. He needed a babysitter like Bret or Owen to keep not only on time but to actually SHOW UP. We all saw what happened when Bret went singles, Niedhart was gone in a matter of months.

 

[ServantofTwilight]

You kind of jumped around a little so I will try to answer everything.

So your basic argument is Niedhart would have been part of the long one of monster heels fed to Hogan in the mid-80's at non-televized house shows. That's not really "making it" as a singles.

That is how it worked back then. With both Backland and Hogan. Heel would come in, look good for awhile, and as the feud wound down the champ would win. Happened with everyone.

And there were no televised house shows( except on MSG ). Wrestlers defeated jobbers on TV and cuts interviews for their upcoming matches. A good program would be one that had SD Jones because you knew he would lose but would put up a fight. In fact in the WWF in the early/mid 80s the champ never wrestled on TV. You had to go to an arena to see him.

I am saying that while( if the tag team never happened ) Bret would have went home to Calgary( by his own admission ) Neidhart would have stayed and worked with Hogan.

We just mentioned Kamala and Killer Khanna in the same breath. Not really world class territory.

Nice try, but you mentioned Khan and Kamala. I pointed out that they were not even in the WWF at the time. But try these names. Ventura, Orton, Valentine, Studd, Muraco, Graham, Duncam, Slaughter, Patterson, Bundy, Beefcake, Iron Sheik, Volkolf, Orndorf and Savage. Any of them world class territory? Because they all did what I am saying with either Backland or Hogan. Some with both. At house shows in New York, Boston, Philadelphia etc etc.

Lets look at Valentine.

Started in territories. Went up to Mid Atlantic and won NWA tag titles and US Hwt title. Left to go to WWF. Started small, worked a program with Backland, looked good early, Backland finishes strong. Valentine goes to midcard and challenges Morales for IC title. Leaves for NWA, wins US title and feuds with Piper. After feud goes back to WWF, works up for feud with Hogan, drops down to midcard and wins IC. Drops IC and moves to tag teaming.

Thats basically how it worked. Worked with the champ and then moved before you got stale. I don't see why it is so hard to believe Neidhart couldn't do something similar.

I never disputed Anvil could be good for a few house show runs but we have guys on here talking about him being a potential PPV draw and that's not the case. We all know you could have put a grizzly bear in the ring with Hogan in the mid 80s and it would've sold out. Not much of a stretch there.

Here we are not arguing. I said in 91 that the only way a singles push would have worked for Neidhart would have been to turn heel and attack Hart. It would have been short and never got out of midcard. My argument with Neidhart in 1985 was against those saying that he needed Bret. It was the other way around.

And are you saying Hogan vs bear fills Wrestlemania 3?

No one did that voluntarily LOL. You made more being a low card job guy in the WWF than a top guy at these dying promotions at that time.

But guys did. I proved it.

Brody was a a different type of animal. He didn't get along with ANY promoters hence the reason why he jumped from territory to territory and eventually wound up in Puerto Rico where he was ultimate killed. DiBiase left the early WWF before it went national in 1984. He was not going back after he became "The Million Dollar Man" same goes for Eddie Gilbert, the Sheepherders and anyone else can name.

Nice try, but no. Brody was in heavy demand. He was just smart enough to never sign on with just one promotion. Yes he had problems with promoter but he was money, which was why they always brought him back. In 1986 Brody...in Feb wrestled at FCWs Battle of the Belts 2, in April he wrestled at AWAs WrestleRock, in May he wrestled twice at WCCWs Parade of Champions, not to mentions appearances in Central States, AJPW and WWC. Prior to his death in Puerto Rico he wrestled at Parade of Champions 1988 for WCCW, where he also served as a part time booker.

I will give you DiBiase but both Henning and Gilbert left well after Vince Jr had control and had started going national. Gilbert was even being given a singles push.

My point with the others is that there are many successful wrestlers who bounced between one of the big 3 and the territories. Had Neidhart decided after his push to leave the WWF the territories were an option.

The AWA was dying the mid-'80's. Once those guys had the opportunity to go back to the WWF they all jumped.

But first they left. In 85, while the WWF was big. Slaughter left at the height of his popularity, while being on the GI Joe cartoon and getting his own GI Joe action figure. And he went to the AWA. So did Snuka. So did Rose. My point was that if Neidhart felt he was turning into a jobber at this point he had options, the AWA being a good one.

In summary...

1991- only gets a push if goes heel and feuds with Hart. Not a big push and not long.

1985- could have had a good singles career but went the tag route. Had he stayed a single competitor and wrestled in my scenario until 1990 he would have had a career lasting 12 years. Not great but not bad.

Bret got bigger, but Bret needed Neidhart more then Neidhart needed Bret.

 

[Goldie]

Are talking fact or fiction here? We all know that Jim Niedhart was not responsible enough to be on his own. He needed a babysitter like Bret or Owen to keep not only on time but to actually SHOW UP. We all saw what happened when Bret went singles, Niedhart was gone in a matter of months.

Jim was a bit of a loose cannon at times.
The days leading up to Davey vs Bret at the London Summerslam- Davey was living at Jims house- the pair smoking crack together just before the biggest match of Daveys life!
In Brets book he claimed Davey was easily led that he wished Jim wouldn't have been such a bad influence.
Part of the reason why Bret had to walk Davey through their match... albeit a classic!

 

[Makaveli31]

That is how it worked back then. With both Backland and Hogan. Heel would come in, look good for awhile, and as the feud wound down the champ would win. Happened with everyone.

And there were no televised house shows( except on MSG ). Wrestlers defeated jobbers on TV and cuts interviews for their upcoming matches. A good program would be one that had SD Jones because you knew he would lose but would put up a fight. In fact in the WWF in the early/mid 80s the champ never wrestled on TV. You had to go to an arena to see him.

I'm jumping around? You're talking two different era's here. The "Backlund Era" where it was still the WWWF (a northeast based territory controlled by Vince Sr.) which did one show a month at the Garden plus several smaller shows and the "Hogan Era" which was a national tour. The bottom line is you had to sell out but it was more about the headliner than anything else. Guys like Superstar and Hogan sold out no matter who was in there with them, Backlund did not. I still don't know where Anvil fits into this equation. Hogan was going against legit giants (6'5' and above) that was why they created this line of "monsters" like Studd, Kamala, Bundy and Kahn. It was either that or have an outsized personality like Piper or Savage but you had to have one or the other.

Nice try, but you mentioned Khan and Kamala. I pointed out that they were not even in the WWF at the time. But try these names. Ventura, Orton, Valentine, Studd, Muraco, Graham, Duncam, Slaughter, Patterson, Bundy, Beefcake, Iron Sheik, Volkolf, Orndorf and Savage. Any of them world class territory? Because they all did what I am saying with either Backland or Hogan. Some with both. At house shows in New York, Boston, Philadelphia etc etc.

It does matter, They ALL fall into the same category. Monster heels that were lined up to serve up to Hogan. You don't think Niedhart falls into that category. Again, you are confusing the era's The heels that faced Backlund in the late '70's/early '80's did not face Hogan. Two totally different types of babyfaces so you needed different types of heels. Backlund relied on his wrestling, Hogan his charisma. Snuka was perfect to face someone like Backlund (who had no charisma) but not necessarily Hogan. The guys you just mentioned also had successful careers PRIOR to their run with the World Champion something Anvil did not. Anvil was still relatively new.

I am saying that while( if the tag team never happened ) Bret would have went home to Calgary( by his own admission ) Neidhart would have stayed and worked with Hogan.

Well that's pure speculation and I have a feeling Bret would've ended up with the WWF eventually. You can't hide talent.

It would have been short and never got out of midcard. My argument with Neidhart in 1985 was against those saying that he needed Bret. It was the other way around.

Maybe in 1985 he needed Jim but not in 1988, 1989, or 1990. When the Harts were a main event tag team

And are you saying Hogan vs bear fills Wrestlemania 3?

And are you saying Hogan vs. Anvil does.?

But guys did. I proved it.

Again. Not voluntarily.

Nice try, but no. Brody was in heavy demand. He was just smart enough to never sign on with just one promotion. Yes he had problems with promoter but he was money, which was why they always brought him back. In 1986 Brody...in Feb wrestled at FCWs Battle of the Belts 2, in April he wrestled at AWAs WrestleRock, in May he wrestled twice at WCCWs Parade of Champions, not to mentions appearances in Central States, AJPW and WWC. Prior to his death in Puerto Rico he wrestled at Parade of Champions 1988 for WCCW, where he also served as a part time booker.

Yes. Someone like Brody would've been successful in the territory days because he coul jump from promotion to promotion but once the territories started dying out and it slowly became the Big 3 then the Big 2 Brody's days would've been numbered. Not saying he wasn't money but he could conform to the corporate atmosphere pro wrestling had become under Vince and Turner. Brody was a throwback to the Wild Wild West days.

Henning and Gilbert left well after Vince Jr had control and had started going national. Gilbert was even being given a singles push.

No, they both left in 1984 hardly "well after" Vince started going national.

My point with the others is that there are many successful wrestlers who bounced between one of the big 3 and the territories. Had Neidhart decided after his push to leave the WWF the territories were an option.

Many?!? Really?I would like to hear. Fact it most territories were dead or on their death bed by the late '80s they been absorbed by either the WWF or JCP. Those are the facts.

But first they left. In 85, while the WWF was big. Slaughter left at the height of his popularity, while being on the GI Joe cartoon and getting his own GI Joe action figure. And he went to the AWA. So did Snuka. So did Rose. My point was that if Neidhart felt he was turning into a jobber at this point he had options, the AWA being a good one.

Please tell me you're not comparing Anvil to Snuka and Slaughter at that point who had just come off MASSIVE main event runs in the WWF. Yes, he could've gone to the AWA but he would've been Boris Zhukov.

Bret got bigger, but Bret needed Neidhart more then Neidhart needed Bret.

Again, maybe at first but that's like saying well Tom Brady was just a sixth round draft pick and sat behind Drew Bledsoe on the bench. It dosn't matter the circumstances of HOW that team was out together. What matters is HOW and WHO made that team as successful as it became. Not taking anything away from the Jim the Anvil but to say that Bret NEEDED Anvil more than Anvil needed Bret is asinine. I'm talking about the OVERALL picture not just 1985.

 

[ServantofTwilight]

I'm jumping around? You're talking two different era's here. The "Backlund Era" where it was still the WWWF (a northeast based territory controlled by Vince Sr.) which did one show a month at the Garden plus several smaller shows and the "Hogan Era" which was a national tour. The bottom line is you had to sell out but it was more about the headliner than anything else. Guys like Superstar and Hogan sold out no matter who was in there with them, Backlund did not. I still don't know where Anvil fits into this equation. Hogan was going against legit giants (6'5' and above) that was why they created this line of "monsters" like Studd, Kamala, Bundy and Kahn. It was either that or have an outsized personality like Piper or Savage but you had to have one or the other.

I was vague. I meant you jumped between posts. You answered me, waited a day, then answered again but different parts. I was trying to answer both your posts in what I thought was the order...never mind. This part was my fault.

Backland loses the title in Dec of 83. Hogan wins title in Jan 84. Are you really saying that the booking styles of the WWF changed in one month. No. before PPVs you had feuds last about three months. That didn't change when Hogan won the title. In fact, lets look at Hogan's first reign.

He wins title in Jan 84. One year later he has wrestled at 0 ppvs. Two years later he has wrestled at 1 PPV, defending against Piper. Three years later he has wrestled at 2 PPVs, defending against Piper and Bundy. Four years later he has wrestled at 4 PPVs, defending against Piper, Bundy and Andre. The last PPV was Survivor Series so he didn't defend title.

So, in his first reign he defended the title 3 times on PPV. 3 times on PPV in a 4 year period. During Hogan's first reign they still booked the champ pretty much the same, feeding him a heel and various house shows, building the matches until you had the blowoff matches a few months later.

And yes Backland drew. You are not champ for 5 years if you didn't draw.

While Hogan often wrestled the 'monster of the week' heels he also defended against smaller guys like Piper, Orton, Orndorf, Savage, Valentine, Muraco, Iron Sheik, Funk, Beefcake, Adrian Adonis and Harley Race. And with the exception of Piper, none on PPV, so it was done on the house circuit. This is where Neidhart would have fit in. Never on PPV but on the house circuit.

It does matter, They ALL fall into the same category. Monster heels that were lined up to serve up to Hogan. You don't think Niedhart falls into that category. Again, you are confusing the era's The heels that faced Backlund in the late '70's/early '80's did not face Hogan. Two totally different types of babyfaces so you needed different types of heels. Backlund relied on his wrestling, Hogan his charisma. Snuka was perfect to face someone like Backlund (who had no charisma) but not necessarily Hogan. The guys you just mentioned also had successful careers PRIOR to their run with the World Champion something Anvil did not. Anvil was still relatively new.

No, all the names I mentioned do not fall into the same category. Big difference between Studd and Orton. However, lets look at guys Backland and Hogan both faced.

Greg Valentine, John Studd, Bob Orton, Don Muraco, Jesse Ventura and The Iron Sheik.

Plus Backland faced his share of big men in Graham, Duncam, Hansan, King Kong Mosca and Ernie Ladd. No champion just faces one type of opponent.

Well that's pure speculation and I have a feeling Bret would've ended up with the WWF eventually. You can't hide talent.

Maybe. Or he would have stayed in Calgary and worked with his brothers. Or he would have worked more in Japan. Or he would have went to the AWA. Or he would have went to the NWA. Who knows. But once he would have left the WWF( and by his own admission he was quitting until they decided to tag him with Neidhart ) his time line is off and the chances he would have been champ like he did become slimmer.

Maybe in 1985 he needed Jim but not in 1988, 1989, or 1990. When the Harts were a main event tag team

No one is arguing that. By 1988 Bret was the bigger star. My point is that all of you saying that Neidhart needed Bret and the tag team in the beginning are wrong.

And are you saying Hogan vs. Anvil does.?

You said Hogan could draw with a bear, not me.

Again. Not voluntarily.

Rose wrestled at Wrestlemania 1 then left rather then be a jobber. Snuka left for Japan the went to the AWA. And again, Slaughter chose to leave at the height of his popularity. Are you telling me Vince McMahon, who loved cartoonish wrestlers, wouldn't have done all he could to keep a super popular guy who was an actual cartoon.

Yes. Someone like Brody would've been successful in the territory days because he coul jump from promotion to promotion but once the territories started dying out and it slowly became the Big 3 then the Big 2 Brody's days would've been numbered. Not saying he wasn't money but he could conform to the corporate atmosphere pro wrestling had become under Vince and Turner. Brody was a throwback to the Wild Wild West days.

This is totally pointless. I said in 1986 Neidhart would not have had to job but had options outside the WWF. Nothing you said here changes that.

No, they both left in 1984 hardly "well after" Vince started going national.

I was wrong about Henning. I concede the point. However I still maintain that Gilbert chose to leave, maybe not 'well after' the expansion to go national but certain during it and during a push he was receiving.

Hogan wins belt in Jan 84. McMahon had already purchased airtime in the midwest. He starts moving west across country during the year so that buy the time Wrestlemania 1 comes around in March 85 the WWF is known across country and he could risk selling it on closed circuit.

Or are you off the opinion that McMahon risked all on the chance people would drive to a civics center or coliseum and pay the ticket price to watch the event on a large screen?

Many?!? Really?I would like to hear. Fact it most territories were dead or on their death bed by the late '80s they been absorbed by either the WWF or JCP. Those are the facts.

1986. WCCW, UWF, Stampede, Central States, Portland, Memphis, Continental, Florida, AWA, NWA, AJPW, NJPW and WWC.

Please tell me you're not comparing Anvil to Snuka and Slaughter at that point who had just come off MASSIVE main event runs in the WWF. Yes, he could've gone to the AWA but he would've been Boris Zhukov.

Fine, he would have been Zhukov, who in 1986 challenged Bockwinkel for the AWA world title and then in 1987 won the tag titles. That is all I am saying Neidhart could have done.

Again, maybe at first but that's like saying well Tom Brady was just a sixth round draft pick and sat behind Drew Bledsoe on the bench. It dosn't matter the circumstances of HOW that team was out together. What matters is HOW and WHO made that team as successful as it became. Not taking anything away from the Jim the Anvil but to say that Bret NEEDED Anvil more than Anvil needed Bret is asinine. I'm talking about the OVERALL picture not just 1985.

And I am not. Again I am saying this only in responce to those of you saying Neidhart need Bret more. It is not true. By Bret's own words he was gone if not for the tag team. He is the one who requested it. On his DVD he says he was losing often, was off tv and was ready to quit. Neidhart was not. Hart also said it was Neidhart early on who elevated the team until he took over.

Overall picture- Bret is 10x the star. I am saying he owes alot of that success to Jim Neidhart. More then Jim owes to him.

 

[Makaveli31]

Are you really saying that the booking styles of the WWF changed in one month.

Well, you're getting two things confused. Booking style and era. No the booking style did not change. It did not change until 1998 with the "Attitude Era" but there was a big difference between pre-national WWF (until about 1984) and national-era WWF. Pre-national they did one show a month at the Garden. That was the money maker for the Vince Sr. Everything based off of that. Then that they did shows around the northeast loop where the champion faced random wrestlers'. Now if you want to say we could've faced Hogan at a few house shows around the loop I'm in agreement with you but to say he would've had a "program" with Hogan is a bit of a stretch again considering the level of heels at the time.

Plus Backland faced his share of big men in Graham, Duncam, Hansan, King Kong Mosca and Ernie Ladd. No champion just faces one type of opponent.

Right but one thing they all had in common was that they were all draws individually also.

Maybe. Or he would have stayed in Calgary and worked with his brothers. Or he would have worked more in Japan. Or he would have went to the AWA. Or he would have went to the NWA. Who knows. But once he would have left the WWF( and by his own admission he was quitting until they decided to tag him with Neidhart ) his time line is off and the chances he would have been champ like he did become slimmer.

Maybe but that's the luck of the draw.

This is totally pointless. I said in 1986 Neidhart would not have had to job but had options outside the WWF. Nothing you said here changes that.

I never said he didn't have options.

1986. WCCW, UWF, Stampede, Central States, Portland, Memphis, Continental, Florida, AWA, NWA, AJPW, NJPW and WWC.

Within a year or two most of these promotions would be closed or bought out (WCCW bought by Jerry Jarrett, UWF/Central bought by Crockett, Tampa closed) Portland, Memphis (CWA) Stampede were minor league promotions where you STARTED you didn't finish there. AWA still had some juice (barely) but by 1988 they were on their last legs. Hence, all these cross promotion PPV's like Superclash and mergers. Not saying it wasn't option but you would be an idiot to leave the safety of the WWF to go to these dying promotions. Everyone knew these promotions were on their last legs as WWF raided their talent.

And I am not. Again I am saying this only in responce to those of you saying Neidhart need Bret more. It is not true. By Bret's own words he was gone if not for the tag team. He is the one who requested it. On his DVD he says he was losing often, was off tv and was ready to quit. Neidhart was not. Hart also said it was Neidhart early on who elevated the team until he took over.

Not disputing that BUT once they got off the ground (and it was make it or break it time) it was BRET who catapulted the tag team into the tag team main event picture in the WWF going against the Bulldogs, Strike Force, the Rougeaus, Demolition, etc...and certainly once they became babyfaces. Maybe Niedhart initially but Bret was the one made the Foundation take of. If you want to say he "owes" that to Niedhart. Fine. I guess but it was Bret to took that team main event and kept them there.

Overall picture- Bret is 10x the star. I am saying he owes alot of that success to Jim Neidhart. More then Jim owes to him.

Let's see. So Bret owes Jim for INITIALLY forming a tag team with him but Jim does not owe Bret for keeping him in the WWF for over a decade where he had no business being there for as long as he did and going to bat for him over and over when he had his personal problems? And to this day he maintains a relationship with WWE through his daughter.

 

[THTRobtaylor]

Not the case...

The 80's were a different time, it wasn't as much on "in-ring ability" to determine push, just more where they put your match on the card. Neidhart was a far more natural talker than Bret, and that was judged more important in selling shows. Neidhart was given BIG props in commentary and for many was the captain of the team.

Bret was more the "silent assassin" of the team, less good on the mic but carried the in-ring work. The Harts worked because BOTH had equal star quality, but in different areas, making the team more than the sum of its parts. To many, grown men wearing pink would have been laughable but they made it work...

One of the more memorable aspects of their run is how Bret would always stand and look cocky, maybe saying one or two words while Neidhart would carry the interview, cackle and come across as a little bit nuts. They needed guys who could do the selling of the show more than those who could wow the fans when they were there... the hardest part in those days was getting a fan INTO the arena... once they were there it was easy to wow them with the spectacle. Bret beneffited from the change where it became about TV selling PPV's and then ratings themselves rather than TV selling the live events. The latter period relied more on the in ring product and that's where a guy like Neidhart would lose out. That change coincided pretty much with Bret's first pushes as singles... he was just the most ready on the roster at that time and needed the least "push" from management as the fans were already invested

Even Bret had to admit he put shit loads of work into promos to even get that first singles push to the IC - so to say he had 10x the star power then is ridiculous... he DID have perhaps more overall potential, but even that was contingent on the small man becoming able to carry the show. There are alternate universes where Curt Hennig, Rick Rude or even Marty Jannetty, Shane Douglas or even Owen end up in the position Bret did...

All it ever takes is one or two decisions by a person or a moment of fate and it changes the whole of history in that period.

In the Hogan era, Neidhart not only was capable of selling a feud on the mic with him or Warrior (would have been interesting to see) but also making a different type of opponent in the ring for them, smaller in height but perhaps stronger or more "brute force" and that "craziness" would have added an edge. Even during Savage's run, Neidhart would have been a great opponent for him, someone almost as unhinged as him... For it to have happened would have meant Bret being fed to him however... would they have ever gone there?

That first break up they did in 89, quite possibly, you could argue the Strike Force turn would have been The Harts had they stuck to the original plans for them... Tito "lost out" at the start but was kept very strong for a jobber until the El Matador switch... Bret wouldn't have jobbed as often but perhaps moved up slower with Neidhart getting that big push that Martel did... But once Vince decided the only way he'd get his money back was on keeping the team together, it was clear they'd shifted to Bret being the one to move on from the team, rather than both.

Make no mistake, Neidhart made poor choices, but he didn't NEED Bret more, arguably he didn't get his singles push because of those poor choices, like getting sued/suing an airline and needing to borrow money from Vince that he never paid back etc... Take those out of the equation and llike with Marty Jannetty, you could actually have had two singles stars out of the team, not just the one.