Confused Person

[mcfly2012]

Just watching the hall of fame right know as I type this. Just watching the Alundra Blayze speech. They reminded me of something which I totally forgot about the fact she threw the women's title in the trash in WCW. Now the questions I have is this.
Why was she allowed to take the belt to WCW in the first place and go there as champion? But the bigger question in my view is Montreal. Whatever went down at survivor 97 happened. But if stories are correct Bret was willing to give title back on Raw next night.
So if Alundra was able to take her title to the WCW then why didn't Vince trust Bret to his word. Someone explain please????

 

[tak161]

As far as I know it, there was nothing keeping Madusa from taking the title with her, much like Flair took the World Title with him from WCW to WWE. The contracts at the time didn't prevent things like this. So the belts sort of became the holders possession if their contract was up.

Montreal happened because Vince couldn't and wouldn't take the risk of Bret taking the WWE Title with him to Nitro and potentially doing the same thing Madusa did. Although I don't think Bret would have agreed to do that anyway, but Vince didn't want to take that chance.

 

[Lord_Frish]

I seem to recall Bischoff said in an interview there were legal reasons why he couldn't have shown the WWE title on Nitro anyway.

Contracts were very different back then, there wasn't guaranteed money and they were just ending an era where champions would appear in different regional promotions with their titles.

My guess would be that Blayze had a contract that pretty much gave no guarantees with the WWE. In her HoF speech she said she 'threw the title in the trash for job security and money.' which was a rarity at the time. Also there was no 'no compete' clause.

Its also worth noting Lex Luger's appearance on the first WCW Nitro. His contract with the WWE ended a few days earlier and McMahon had no idea Luger was going to appear on Nitro until it happened.

The same with Rick Rude, who left in 97 after the screwjob. He wasn't on any guaranteed contract and ended up appearing on the prerecorded Raw and live Nitro on the same night.

So to sum it up, she would have been on a small contract with no guarantees and few if any clauses. Considering around the same time, guys like Lex Luger could suddenly appear on the other promotion without warning.

To link it to the screwjob. Basically Madusa showed up with the Women's Title a few years earlier. Vince would have been very concerned about the potential of it happening to the WWE Title, a much more valuable asset to the WWE.

Personally I think its not that Vince didn't trust Bret Hart, I think he probably did trust him as much as anyone else. It was more of a matter of being safe, because Bret Hart trashing the WWE Title would have been a huge deal. Just look at how big of a deal it was when Madusa trashed the Women's Title, people still talk about it today. Now imagine if it were Bret Hart and the WWE title. It is very unlikely it would have happened, but I wouldn't take that risk either.

 

[shafe_41]

Simple. Vince wasn't going to take the chance of having the same thing happen again. Plus... Bret was supposed to do the business and pass the title on to Shawn. Bret didn't want to do business and do the job. Bret decided losing the title in Canada was some giant slap in the face because he thought he was Canada's ambassador to wrestling. Bret has even said sometimes he took the business too seriously. His refusal to drop the title to Shawn at Survivor Series was a glowing example of that. Bret didn't do the job so Vince did the job for him.

 

[MWRedskins]

But the bigger question in my view is Montreal. Whatever went down at survivor 97 happened. But if stories are correct Bret was willing to give title back on Raw next night.
So if Alundra was able to take her title to the WCW then why didn't Vince trust Bret to his word. Someone explain please????

for me it's simple, he (Vince) likely didnt trust Bret at his word. Jim Cornette said in the Monday Night Wars DVD that one of Vince's biggest weaknesses was taking people at their word and that's what hurt him with Luger, Hall and Nash (according to Cornette), so Vince likely didnt want to trust someone at their word only to get kicked below the belt again.

Vince feared that Eric Bischoff would persuade Bret Hart to bringing the WWE title to television and likely doing something to it. With that said, i HIGHLY doubt that Bret would've done that because while he did leave for WCW, he respected the business too much to do something like that to a guy who treated him well (at the time). so i think Vince did what he did and likely regretted it, but felt he had to do it so his worry didnt happen.

 

[George Steele's Barber]

I don't believe McMahon ever believed Bret would take the title with him. He wanted to bury Bret by making him look like a fool. He succeeded, WWE succeeded and Hart's tenure in WCW was a letdown.

 

[FlairFan2003]

Just watching the hall of fame right know as I type this. Just watching the Alundra Blayze speech. They reminded me of something which I totally forgot about the fact she threw the women's title in the trash in WCW. Now the questions I have is this.
Why was she allowed to take the belt to WCW in the first place and go there as champion? But the bigger question in my view is Montreal. Whatever went down at survivor 97 happened. But if stories are correct Bret was willing to give title back on Raw next night.
So if Alundra was able to take her title to the WCW then why didn't Vince trust Bret to his word. Someone explain please????

Madussa wasn't "allowed" to take anything anywhere. She was lucky she wasn't sued into oblivion over what she did.

Flair also wasn't allowed to take the "Big Gold Belt" to WWE. WCW did sue him and WWE - In fact, after spending a month parading that belt all over WWE TV McMahon & company had to switch and have Flair wear a tag belt at house shows which was "digitally blacked out" during his TV appearances after WCW got a temporary injunction against WWE to stop them from "damaging" their title.

McMahon was losing the Wrestling War pretty bad in late 97 and had been for almost two years. Things were extremely competitive. The Lex Luger situation was a major embarrassment for WWE as they completely believed he was re signing and staying with the company, used him prominently one night earlier on the S-Slam PPV, then suffered the indignity of his shafting The "E" with his debut on the first ever episode of Monday Nitro. Madussa, because the Womens Title was so low profile and WCW had no real Womens Wrestling Program, was a minor insult but not that bad.

In addition to the Luger embarrassment, Vince was worried about a retaliation to his antics with Flair in 1991 as far not wanting Brett to hold the title past his contract date. Flair's WCW contract expired almost a month before he left, while he was reigning World Champ, ostensibly with plans to have him lose the title to Luger at The Great AM Bash PPV. Flair continued working under the financial terms of his expired agreement while in negotiations for a new deal, but nothing was in writing. When the two sides couldn't come to terms Flair agreed to lose the title prior to the PPV to the opponent of WCW's choice (there are stories WCW chose Barry Whyndam because he & Flair had been close friends for years, since the days of Whyndam's childhood while Flair teamed with his father Blackjack Mulligan, the logic being Flair wouldn't risk no showing and damaging a good friend even though he was on good terms with Luger). In the end WCW backtracked again and simply fired Flair, who took the physical belt (which he never lost in the ring thanks to WCW's booking) in retaliation for his WCW dismissing his claims he was owed several thousand dollars in back pay related to insurance deposits he made to cover the costs of the physical belt when it was in his possession.

In the end Flair won the lawsuit and WCW paid him a settlement and he returned the physical belt. Still, Flair had turned down offers from McMahon to jump ship in both 1985 & 1989 and stayed loyal to WCW. Hart had spurned offers from WCW and always been Mr WWE and loyal to McMahon. Flair was willing to lose the belt to WCW's chosen opponent but plans could not be finalized prior to his contract expiring and WCW basically told him to leave rather than give a new deal or extend him long enough to lose the belt proper in the ring. Hart was told WWE wouldn't honor the rest of his contract and he should look for work elsewhere, his contract dates were expiring and he wasn't happy about being phased out. The final dispute over money was the last straw for Flair and his loyalty finally wavered as he took the physical belt and gave it to WWE to use on TV to humiliate WCW. Vince was worried Brett, unhappy about being asked to put over his backstage nemesis HBK, might balk (already upset about being pushed down the card and told to seek new employment elsewhere) might be willing to do something similar, especially if the money was right.

Would Brett have done it ? I doubt it although it does seem silly that he refused to lose (even with a screwjob finish) in Canada (I guess Randy Savage cant lose in FLA, Flair cant lose in NC, HHH cant lose in CT) which makes you wonder if the idea was pushed hard would he have betrayed Vince. Bottom line, Vince couldn't risk the embarrassment that his company's main title, the belt that Sammartino & Backlund as well as Flair, Hogan, & Savage had all worn, would be subjugated by WCW like what he did with their title in 1991. The embarrassment of that would have been much worse than Luger's slap in the face two years earlier. Thus Brett's offer to dropt the title in some fashion the next night after S-Series on RAW (when Brett's last contract date with WWE was already passed) was denied (much like Flair's offer to drop the WCW title prior to the Bash PPV if WCW wouldn't extend his deal and wanted him gone).

 

[FlairFan2003]

As far as I know it, there was nothing keeping Madusa from taking the title with her, much like Flair took the World Title with him from WCW to WWE. The contracts at the time didn't prevent things like this. So the belts sort of became the holders possession if their contract was up.

Montreal happened because Vince couldn't and wouldn't take the risk of Bret taking the WWE Title with him to Nitro and potentially doing the same thing Madusa did. Although I don't think Bret would have agreed to do that anyway, but Vince didn't want to take that chance.

The wrestlers were responsible for maintaining the physical care of the actual belts while on tour. Flair's situation was a complicated law suit in which WCW claimed he stole the physical belt that they owned and Flair countered he took the physical belt because he paid several thousand dollars in insurance fees while he was champ to the company in the event they needed to repair or replace the belt while it was in his possession (a common practice for anyone in WCW who held the World Title, with the caveat that the money be returned to the wrestler when they lost the title). Flair claimed he never asked for his deposits back because the title always came back to him and when his contract negotiations fell through and WCW released him they refused his requests for reimbursement.

Flair definitely wasn't allowed to take the belt and WWE was stopped via a WCW lawsuit from using it on their TV programs and touring events. Eventually though WCW lost their suit against Flair and were forced to pay him a hefty fee to reimburse his deposits (and he was forced to return the belt undamaged to WCW which he did).

 

[Vader]

Given Madusa's place on the WWE card, I doubt she had the same contractual parameters that someone like Bret did. So there may have been something that kept Bret from doing what Madusa.

At what level the NWA was competing with the WWF when Flair did what he did is certainly up for debate. However, if Bret had jumped ship with the WWF title and done anything to it during the height of the Monday Night Wars, it could have been a defining moment in the outcome.

While Shawn didn't have a "credible" win over Bret at a time when many still thought wrestling was real, there is still the matter than anyone who held the title after Bret simply vacates the belt that he would be considered second tier because never beat Bret Hart.

While we all know wrestling is fake, who holds the titles; particularly the Heavyweight Championship, is very much real in that it's a product of the wrestlers own charisma, fan reaction, and in ring ability. So in that sense, it's very much a legitimate competition. If Austin, who defined the Attitude era, came along and won the belt there would still be that perception kayfabe and non, that he wouldn't have had the title if Bret was still in the company.

 

[THTRobtaylor]

Madussa wasn't "allowed" to take anything anywhere. She was lucky she wasn't sued into oblivion over what she did.

Flair also wasn't allowed to take the "Big Gold Belt" to WWE. WCW did sue him and WWE - In fact, after spending a month parading that belt all over WWE TV McMahon & company had to switch and have Flair wear a tag belt at house shows which was "digitally blacked out" during his TV appearances after WCW got a temporary injunction against WWE to stop them from "damaging" their title.

McMahon was losing the Wrestling War pretty bad in late 97 and had been for almost two years. Things were extremely competitive. The Lex Luger situation was a major embarrassment for WWE as they completely believed he was re signing and staying with the company, used him prominently one night earlier on the S-Slam PPV, then suffered the indignity of his shafting The "E" with his debut on the first ever episode of Monday Nitro. Madussa, because the Womens Title was so low profile and WCW had no real Womens Wrestling Program, was a minor insult but not that bad.

In addition to the Luger embarrassment, Vince was worried about a retaliation to his antics with Flair in 1991 as far not wanting Brett to hold the title past his contract date. Flair's WCW contract expired almost a month before he left, while he was reigning World Champ, ostensibly with plans to have him lose the title to Luger at The Great AM Bash PPV. Flair continued working under the financial terms of his expired agreement while in negotiations for a new deal, but nothing was in writing. When the two sides couldn't come to terms Flair agreed to lose the title prior to the PPV to the opponent of WCW's choice (there are stories WCW chose Barry Whyndam because he & Flair had been close friends for years, since the days of Whyndam's childhood while Flair teamed with his father Blackjack Mulligan, the logic being Flair wouldn't risk no showing and damaging a good friend even though he was on good terms with Luger). In the end WCW backtracked again and simply fired Flair, who took the physical belt (which he never lost in the ring thanks to WCW's booking) in retaliation for his WCW dismissing his claims he was owed several thousand dollars in back pay related to insurance deposits he made to cover the costs of the physical belt when it was in his possession.

In the end Flair won the lawsuit and WCW paid him a settlement and he returned the physical belt. Still, Flair had turned down offers from McMahon to jump ship in both 1985 & 1989 and stayed loyal to WCW. Hart had spurned offers from WCW and always been Mr WWE and loyal to McMahon. Flair was willing to lose the belt to WCW's chosen opponent but plans could not be finalized prior to his contract expiring and WCW basically told him to leave rather than give a new deal or extend him long enough to lose the belt proper in the ring. Hart was told WWE wouldn't honor the rest of his contract and he should look for work elsewhere, his contract dates were expiring and he wasn't happy about being phased out. The final dispute over money was the last straw for Flair and his loyalty finally wavered as he took the physical belt and gave it to WWE to use on TV to humiliate WCW. Vince was worried Brett, unhappy about being asked to put over his backstage nemesis HBK, might balk (already upset about being pushed down the card and told to seek new employment elsewhere) might be willing to do something similar, especially if the money was right.

Would Brett have done it ? I doubt it although it does seem silly that he refused to lose (even with a screwjob finish) in Canada (I guess Randy Savage cant lose in FLA, Flair cant lose in NC, HHH cant lose in CT) which makes you wonder if the idea was pushed hard would he have betrayed Vince. Bottom line, Vince couldn't risk the embarrassment that his company's main title, the belt that Sammartino & Backlund as well as Flair, Hogan, & Savage had all worn, would be subjugated by WCW like what he did with their title in 1991. The embarrassment of that would have been much worse than Luger's slap in the face two years earlier. Thus Brett's offer to dropt the title in some fashion the next night after S-Series on RAW (when Brett's last contract date with WWE was already passed) was denied (much like Flair's offer to drop the WCW title prior to the Bash PPV if WCW wouldn't extend his deal and wanted him gone).

Flair absolutely COULD legally parade the belt around, he had it because they hadn't returned the champion deposit of about $25k and WCW's attitude was F'you. In essence till they paid him back, it was HIS property.

It was only that Vince didn't want to get into legal battles with Turner with the roid trial looming large that they aquieseced and removed the Big Gold Belt from the equation. I even seem to remember reading that Vince paid him the money to ensure he didn't lose out by returning the belt, and WCW then paid him too.

 

[rmp0012002]

Flair absolutely COULD legally parade the belt around, he had it because they hadn't returned the champion deposit of about $25k and WCW's attitude was F'you. In essence till they paid him back, it was HIS property.

It was only that Vince didn't want to get into legal battles with Turner with the roid trial looming large that they aquieseced and removed the Big Gold Belt from the equation. I even seem to remember reading that Vince paid him the money to ensure he didn't lose out by returning the belt, and WCW then paid him too.

Contracts at that time weren't that involve so showing up with one companies belt on another show was never thought of. I'm sure Vince has very defined guidelines now. I don't know if Flair was allowed to show the belt on WWF TV but he was totally right to keep it in his possession until his deposit was returned. I don't remember how Flair was also allowed to keep the domed NWA belt since the NWA at that time was still an organization seperate from WWF and WCW.