Cena is WWE's Dark Knight.

[Smartie]

Ok , this is another topic about Cena , but I doubt if we ever had one like this.

Last Monday during the Cena Sucks/Let's go Cena part of the show , Cena was lauing back to the ropes and he was smiling.That smile could have lots of meanings , which i'm gonna focus on one of them.

For all past 6 years , which wrestling fans have seen Johnny boy at top of the mountain , we or at least I have heard enough of the so called " Cena haters " about how he sucks , how he has killed the wrestling , how his only fans are kids and women , how he only has 5 moves and a seemingly endless list of criticism.

Well in order to keep this thread meaningful , I'm not gonna bring reason on why most of above statements are ridiculously wrong , but I'm gonna address some true facts about him and why not only he doesn't deserve this amount of hatred , but may also be the best ever in WWE history.


1)JC became the top guy , without having the " torch " passed to him:

Hogan had Sheik who just ended a six or seven year lasting reign of Bob Bauckland , Warrior had Hogan , Bret Hart had Ric Flair ,Taker (kinda) had Hogan, HBK & Austin had Hitman and VKM, Rock and HHH had each other , their stables and Austin in further years ,Y2J had Rock & Austin in the same night (Damn , I miss Jericho.) Lesnar had Rock.

Who did Cena beat in order to win the championship for the first time?JBL.

I mean Are you serious?Some may compare him to Hogan having Sheik but even Sheik was hated enough to make a star , but JBL?!

The fact is that Cena already had had the torch before beating JBL , He was without a shadow of a doubt the most over guy in WWE from the begining of 2004 , and he earned it without needing anyone to put him over , the only thing he needed was to be himself on mic before each and every match.(I don't mean that no one helped him , Certainly lots of people helped him , but he didn't get as much as the guys who came before him.

Heck , even Batista had HHH and Flair.


2)WWE was weaker than before when Cena got to the top ,and Cena's helped it to get stronger:

Rock,Austin,Lesnar,and even Goldberg were gone , HBK,Angle were good but they weren't money-makers , and even if they were , they were not in Cena's generation and they belonged to the past.

In a simple way , WWE was ready and needed to refresh its roster at time, But no one was as big as Cena.

Orton?He was tried and even main-evented SS , but he didn't work out.Batista?he started his way to top in a higher level , but he didn't live up to expectations.

Austin , Angle , Jericho , Rock , HHH , Taker , Foley had each other.Cena mostly didn't have anyone.


3)Cena has helped every star who has burned after him more than anyone else.

Edge,Orton,Sheamus,Barret (or should I say Nexus),Miz.

Jeff Hardy and Rey Mysterio (CM Punk??) can be counted as expectations but they were on SD so Cena actually could do nothing.

the first 3 won their first championship from Cena (I'm officially ignoring Orton's first), Miz was a joke before feud with Cena , and I assure you the only reason Nexus is still relevant is Cena.


4)Cena started when HHH wasn't finished:

Whenever i watch WM22 , I get confused.Is HHH insane?Is he that arrogant?Is he a big piece of shit?Is the creative that stupid?Or It's just a big misunderstanding on my side.

HHH was the top heel for years , but he decides to turn face right in the beginning of Cena vs. HHH rivalry.

Yes I know , Lots of people are gonna say " People chose to cheer him and boo Cena ".Yes.Indeed , It may be true.But It's ain't about people.

HHH acted during the whole feud like he is a big babyface.He introduces his newest nickname " Kings of Kings " , even a new cool theme song by motorhead , and all of this happened why he logically should have helped a new star to develope , not to make one out of himself.

5)Cena loses way too much for the top guy.

Everybody has beaten Cena.Every babyface has beaten him cleanly.

Orton,HHH,,HBK,Batista,Sheamus has beaten him fair and square.

Barret,Edge,Big show,JBL, have beaten him via pinfall or KO, numerous times , but not exactly cleanly.

How many times did u see guys like Austin and Rock lose?


6)Cena is able to get reactions as loud as Austin and Rock.

That's a fact if you understand Ovation is not Reaction.

Last Monday ,you saw that he got people to React , no matter who they are.

He may be boed by lots of guys , but hell in past few years , I can name countless episodes of Raw or PPVs which absolutely had no reactions if it wasn't for Cena.Cena's part of the show is 90% of the times the loudest part.If you don't believe in Sounds you hear from your TV set , I suggest you to go to a Raw live event to realize what i say.

7)No matter what you say about his wrestling , his mic work , his look , his attitude and ... In his era , he has the most talent in the only category that matters in wrestling (and many other industries) : He can make people care.

This is the reason no matter how sometimes Orton's,HHH's or other superstars get louder cheers, they are not as big as Cena.Orton had a feud with HHH in 2004.Did people care about him or the feud?Orton had a match with Sheamus at SS.Did you hear anything during the match?That's what I'm talking about.




All of above points are the ones i think that are forgotten by IWC sometimes , so I didn't bring lots of other argues like :

Spoiler

He sells merchandise ridiculously , He is a great guy outside work , He is a workaholic , He rarely misses time , He has never caused any problem backstage ,He is not an egotistical at all , The reason guys doesn't like him is because of his character or gimmick and has nothing to do with himself ,He hates PG or at least acts like he does more than anyone alse on roster,He's been on the top more than 5 years while he's only 33,He's adaptable to any kind of programming unlike Rock and Austin,He has never refused to job,You can't find any wrestlers talikng shit about him in public,He's been the top wish granter in USA,He's the only guy in wrestling in past 5 years to make people cry for his match's outcome,He's the only well-known wrestler in mainstream and ...

I have no problem with people booing him or thinking that he sucks.It's just a matter of opinion.The only problem I have is with the people who insult or disrespect him , while he definitely doesn't deserve it.

At end of the day , he is not a hero.Some love him,Some love to hate him , but he does his job , he is what people need him to be.He's a brave soldier , a knight , a dark knight.

Spoiler

I remember in some other thread in this forum one of guys said" I'm afraid he is gonna be booed even in his own hall of induction ceremony".

I'm waiting for that night and I'm expecting people to not only boo him , but also give him one unforgettable ovation , so I can say :

"This city just showed you it's full of people who are ready to believe in good." The Dark Night , Batman to Joker.

 

[ZCLawless]

I agree with about 90% of what you said. Ive been defending Cena for ever I probly defend him more than anyone. Cena gets a reaction rather its good or bad. On Raw monday I loved it when he said Men over the age of 18 Say Cena Sucks and all The Woman and Kids say lets go Cena. It was one of his greatest Promos. Also agree about him getting as big of reactions as The Rock and Stone Cold only differnts is Rocky and SCSA is there was Cheers Cena is mixed. About him making Sheamus Orton Miz and Nexus ive never really thought of that thats a very good point sir. See Cena can wrestle just in his own way he has way more than 5 differnt moves and anyone says he sucks need to look at the ultimate warrior for gods sake. But as i said i agree with 90% of what you said I dont agree with you saying he could be the greatest of all time. Cena is my CURRERNT favorite wrestler and i have alot of respect for him and love to watch him entertain us but IMO Stone Cold Steve Austin is the Greatest Ever Not Bret Hart not Shawn Micheas like The Rock Even tho all of those people are up there with him and not that butt fuck Hulk Hogan. But like i said thats my opion and SCTA is my favorite of all time so I kinda lean towards him anyway lol. But good thread and I enjoy seeing somon besides myself defending Cena.

 

[darbare]

great thread, I definitely have gained a newfound respect for Cena and what he has done...I thought about this a while ago and even posted a thread about how this could lead to a heel turn....I think WWE will make Cena liked by everyone...especially after this past monday when he asked the fans to chant lets go Cena and Cena sux...everyone got a laugh, and if you didnt then you were in the minority....I think WWE could possibly make everyone like him and then turn him heel just to prove a point....but anyways great thread...I wouldnt say he didnt have anyone because you would be blind to say that....he obviously needed that first title run and second one to really get a loyal following...feuds with JBL, Kurt Angle, Edge, RVD, Triple H, HBK, really cemented his spot because those are such diverse wrestlers and all former world champs...I will agree that no one gave him the torch....Cena has worked for everything and deserves some respect

 

[harrythem]

Well there's quite the argument for Cena there but I'm going to go through the points just quoting the numbered part as it'd be too big a reply to cover every point in detail.

1)JC became the top guy , without having the " torch " passed to him:

Quoting that reasoning. The Warrior was already a top guy without having the torch passed to him. He wasn't "the guy" but he was a close second long before he came near Hogan. Cena did well taking a joke gimmick and running with it to the point that he became a somebody, but he did get some help along the way. Once he had beaten JBL who, like him or not, was an established headliner (how I'll never know but that's another thread) he was moved to Raw and was put in there with the Austin type role (against the uber heel Bischoff) and people like Jericho and Angle. If that isn't giving someone a rub, I don't know what it.

2)WWE was weaker than before when Cena got to the top ,and Cena's helped it to get stronger:

Cena helped to stabilise the WWE, no question, but he sure as hell didn't make it stronger. Ratings and buy rates have headed in one direction since he became "the guy" and that's not the right direction either. A lot of that can be put on creative but, when you're THE face of the company, you've gotta shoulder a lot of the blame for things being no-where near as strong as they were before you got there.

3)Cena has helped every star who has burned after him more than anyone else.

I strongly disagree with this one. Cena singlehandidly destroyed the Nexus being seen as a major threat after he recovered and destroyed them at Extreme Rules. Finished them off at SummerSlam. Miz had to go away and regroup, because Cena made him his complete bitch in his feud. Sheamus has never beaten Cena clean and is back in the upper midcard where he, at this stage of his career, belongs. Cena's more of a hinderance then a help to those he faces, due to his poor selling and Near Death Superman Comebacks. The only ones that seem to come out of a feud with him without losing steam are those that're already at the main event level.

4)Cena started when HHH wasn't finished:

Triple H acted like he was superior to Cena. He was playing the non-concerned heel so that, when Cena beat him, it should've been able to give the fans a feel-good moment that they're guy beat the cocky bastard. Sadly fans in general have more respect for Triple H and what he's done then they have for Cena, hence the fan reaction. It's the Cena effect. Kurt Angle was saying, during their feud "I don't like black people and would love to make Jesus tap out" but the fans still cheered him against Cena because he belonged in the main event. Cena belongs there now but, back between WM21 and WM22 time, Cena didn't deserve what he had been handed.

5)Cena loses way too much for the top guy.

Sheamus has never beaten Cena cleanly. There's always been a screwy finish involved. Cena loses matches, deffo, but he wins a lot more then he loses. It's not so much that he wins that annoys people, it's how he wins. The dead then superman, the no selling injuries (such as stabbings) and so forth. All the top guys lose a lot more then they used to because, unlike Austin & Rock, they're not super-duper-stars. There are a lot of guys around the same level and they can share the wealth, because none of the bastards is brining in that much attention as the SDS's did!

6)Cena is able to get reactions as loud as Austin and Rock.

You've got more chance of me not referring to Gillian McKeith as a cunt then you have of this ever being true (and she's a Tim Westwood/Ben Affleck level cunt). He gets good reactions, no doubt about it, but not even close to the level of reaction that Austin and Rock used to get. I've been to Raw live when Rock & Austin were there, and I've been there when Cena's been there. Not even close.

7)No matter what you say about his wrestling , his mic work , his look , his attitude and ... In his era , he has the most talent in the only category that matters in wrestling (and many other industries) : He can make people care.

See I like Cena's mike work, I love his attitude (although I would prefer it if he stood up for the lesser wrestlers but, again, that's another rant for another thread) and I agree he makes people care, but not in the sense that you think he makes people care. With the younger audience, yeah, he gets them to care because they want him to win because he's the hero who fights the odds and never gives up. With us older fans who, in general, have been around for longer, he tends to wind people up. In the stuff outside of the ring I think he's great but, between those ropes, the guy pisses me right off. It just takes a few of his shit punches, of that No Pressure STF, and when he's lying dead in the ring and jumps up seconds later as if nothing has happened. When he does those things it makes it impossible for me to suspend belief and can ruin a whole event. It was acceptable at first because he was new to the game but, now, he's been at the top so long he should've been able to sort out the shit he does wrong.

Although, saying that, perhaps I'm wrong. The fact that I get annoyed by what he does in the ring does show that he gets people to react. Could quite possibly be that if he sorted out what he does wrong, the older fans wouldn't react with any passion for him and that'd kill half of the magic of a Cena match.

Oh, and he needs to stop dressing like a fucking ten year old who found his dads special medicine, he looks stupid and his shirts hurt my eyes.

 

[Arkham Noir]

I agree with some of the things you said.

Not to be the Batman nerd ( which I am anyways) , but one of the quotes in "The Dark Knight" said " I'm whatever they need me to be". This sums up Cena in every possible way. He lets the fans react to him in any way they see fit. He doesn't try to be the good guy. He is him. Open to anyone's opinion and interpratation. He isn't going to try and make you change your opinion.

The point I agree with you most on is that he has the ability to make people care. People like Cena, and some hate him with a passion, but nobody is bored when he comes out. The worst thing that any wrestler can do is draw zero reaction.

 

[Yarrie]

wow so many opinins, I agree with most things Nexusoragianstus said, except '
HHH acted during the whole feud like he is a big babyface.He introduces his newest nickname " Kings of Kings " , even a new cool theme song by motorhead , and all of this happened why he logically should have helped a new star to develope , not to make one out of himself' (sorry dont know how to do it the flash way I am a computer moron) and that HBK isn't a money maker. Umm Hello HHH or HBK are the ONLY reasons I would pay for a PPV. Anyway I like Cena and I think he does deserve to be where he is, I love his attitude, such a good role model for kids with his never give up thing, and I like his outfit, I also think he is good in the ring, better than most infact. I hope Cena stays around, although it would be nice for him to be out of the title picture a bit longer. Let Miz have it for a while.

 

[Little Jerry Lawler]

Well there's quite the argument for Cena there but I'm going to go through the points just quoting the numbered part as it'd be too big a reply to cover every point in detail.

Here we go.

Quoting that reasoning. The Warrior was already a top guy without having the torch passed to him. He wasn't "the guy" but he was a close second long before he came near Hogan. Cena did well taking a joke gimmick and running with it to the point that he became a somebody, but he did get some help along the way. Once he had beaten JBL who, like him or not, was an established headliner (how I'll never know but that's another thread) he was moved to Raw and was put in there with the Austin type role (against the uber heel Bischoff) and people like Jericho and Angle. If that isn't giving someone a rub, I don't know what it.

That's still not having the torch passed to you. If anyone closely resembled passing the torch, it was Michaels when he tapped at WM 23.

Cena helped to stabilise the WWE, no question, but he sure as hell didn't make it stronger. Ratings and buy rates have headed in one direction since he became "the guy" and that's not the right direction either. A lot of that can be put on creative but, when you're THE face of the company, you've gotta shoulder a lot of the blame for things being no-where near as strong as they were before you got there.

Cena helped stabilze the WWE after HHH almost killed it from 2003-2005. HHH had awful matches with Steiner, Booker T, Nash, and Goldberg while Angle, Lesnar, and Benoit were having great match after great match on Smackdown. Not to mention he and his buddy HBK totally overshadowed Benoit's reign.

I strongly disagree with this one. Cena singlehandidly destroyed the Nexus being seen as a major threat after he recovered and destroyed them at Extreme Rules. Finished them off at SummerSlam. Miz had to go away and regroup, because Cena made him his complete bitch in his feud. Sheamus has never beaten Cena clean and is back in the upper midcard where he, at this stage of his career, belongs. Cena's more of a hinderance then a help to those he faces, due to his poor selling and Near Death Superman Comebacks. The only ones that seem to come out of a feud with him without losing steam are those that're already at the main event level.

You couldn't be more wrong. Cena beat Nexus at Summerslam and yet three two months later he had to join Nexus. That sure did make Nexus look weak having the top guy as one of their own. And now, Cena is "fired" from the WWE thanks to the black and gold. Having a future world champion and tag team champions sure looks like they are destroyed.

Triple H acted like he was superior to Cena. He was playing the non-concerned heel so that, when Cena beat him, it should've been able to give the fans a feel-good moment that they're guy beat the cocky bastard. Sadly fans in general have more respect for Triple H and what he's done then they have for Cena, hence the fan reaction. It's the Cena effect. Kurt Angle was saying, during their feud "I don't like black people and would love to make Jesus tap out" but the fans still cheered him against Cena because he belonged in the main event. Cena belongs there now but, back between WM21 and WM22 time, Cena didn't deserve what he had been handed.

Angle got cheers from the fans because he couldn't display heel psychology to save his damn life. All he did was use high impact moves to try to wow the crowd which is what a heel shouldn't do. Cena deserved what he had handed to him because he worked damn hard at it when he was a midcarder for two and a half years.

Sheamus has never beaten Cena cleanly. There's always been a screwy finish involved. Cena loses matches, deffo, but he wins a lot more then he loses. It's not so much that he wins that annoys people, it's how he wins. The dead then superman, the no selling injuries (such as stabbings) and so forth. All the top guys lose a lot more then they used to because, unlike Austin & Rock, they're not super-duper-stars. There are a lot of guys around the same level and they can share the wealth, because none of the bastards is brining in that much attention as the SDS's did!

Sheamus beating Cena brought an air of unpredictability and that has continued throughout this year with the new champions and angles the WWE has produced. Sheamus took out HHH which not too many other wrestlers can hang their hat own. Sheamus is doing just fine. Even Cena has delved in the upper midcard while as a main eventer. Not the end of the world.

Cena did sell getting stabbed during his feud with Carlito. Clearly you didn't watch any episodes of Smackdown in late 2004.

Even the Rock lost a lot for a main eventer.

You've got more chance of me not referring to Gillian McKeith as a cunt then you have of this ever being true (and she's a Tim Westwood/Ben Affleck level cunt). He gets good reactions, no doubt about it, but not even close to the level of reaction that Austin and Rock used to get. I've been to Raw live when Rock & Austin were there, and I've been there when Cena's been there. Not even close.

I don't care that his reactions are viewed as less then Austin's or Rock's because we're in a different era and currently Cena gets the best reaction other than any wrestler and has since 2005.

See I like Cena's mike work, I love his attitude (although I would prefer it if he stood up for the lesser wrestlers but, again, that's another rant for another thread) and I agree he makes people care, but not in the sense that you think he makes people care. With the younger audience, yeah, he gets them to care because they want him to win because he's the hero who fights the odds and never gives up. With us older fans who, in general, have been around for longer, he tends to wind people up. In the stuff outside of the ring I think he's great but, between those ropes, the guy pisses me right off. It just takes a few of his shit punches, of that No Pressure STF, and when he's lying dead in the ring and jumps up seconds later as if nothing has happened. When he does those things it makes it impossible for me to suspend belief and can ruin a whole event. It was acceptable at first because he was new to the game but, now, he's been at the top so long he should've been able to sort out the shit he does wrong.

Although, saying that, perhaps I'm wrong. The fact that I get annoyed by what he does in the ring does show that he gets people to react. Could quite possibly be that if he sorted out what he does wrong, the older fans wouldn't react with any passion for him and that'd kill half of the magic of a Cena match.

Oh, and he needs to stop dressing like a fucking ten year old who found his dads special medicine, he looks stupid and his shirts hurt my eyes.

Who cares how he dresses? Call the fashion police if you have a problem with it.

 

[HellbossMilitia]

I guess I'll give my opinion on John Cena...

He's not my favorite wrestler by far. I really didn't care for him when he was doing the whole "rap gimmick", and I don't care how the WWE basically puts his face all over their product. However after the whole rap gimmick, the WWE noticed his selling to kids and the female audience, and I suppose in a way that's why it helps with the WWE being PG. He's now the clean cut, work hard, play hard, and do the right thing kind of wrestler.

Of course he can't act nor rap, but like him or hate him his mic skills are top tier work when it comes to wrestling and promos. He can still get a chuckle out of me for some of the things he's said, but when it comes to technical wrestling, most people knows he lacks that. From what I read up on it was the WWE who may be the result of why you don't see much technical wrestling anymore.

Most people also know he's like a modern day Hulk Hogan. The whole Hulking up, lack of selling, and the way kids worship him. Hell even my fiances 12 year old nephew wrote an English report on him.

Either way he's successful because McMahon and the WWE put their trust in him, and he delivered. If I was in the entertainment business and I was making money off of someone that a majority of the people didn't like either, I wouldn't stop what I'm doing with that person. I'd keep it up, and draw in the dimes. Which is why the WWE does NOT need to turn him heel. Even then I still wouldn't change my views on John Cena.

 

[KRKO KING OF KINGS]

i cannot have said it better. a lot of people believe that the most person iz the one with the most positive cheers but cena gets both good and bad reactions and he is by far the most over with the crowd this era. also idk if anyone else feels this way but cenas promo on raw wasnt half bad itz actually fairly good. so he proved that he does have extremely good mic skills. im not a cena fan by a long shot but you gotta hand it to him he does his job well

 

[Yarrie]

Once again I apologise for lack of copy and pasting skills but......

Cena helped stabilze the WWE after HHH almost killed it from 2003-2005. HHH had awful matches with Steiner, Booker T, Nash, and Goldberg while Angle, Lesnar, and Benoit were having great match after great match on Smackdown. Not to mention he and his buddy HBK totally overshadowed Benoit's reign.


What ever Little Jerry Lawler, that was an amazing period in the WWE. And if HBK and HHH out shone Chris then that is because they have such amazing charisma, and wrestling ability aside, Chris wasnt the most charismatic performer, even if I was a big fan. Cena is good, but Trips and Shawn are way better

 

[Little Jerry Lawler]

Once again I apologise for lack of copy and pasting skills but......

Cena helped stabilze the WWE after HHH almost killed it from 2003-2005. HHH had awful matches with Steiner, Booker T, Nash, and Goldberg while Angle, Lesnar, and Benoit were having great match after great match on Smackdown. Not to mention he and his buddy HBK totally overshadowed Benoit's reign.


What ever Little Jerry Lawler, that was an amazing period in the WWE. And if HBK and HHH out shone Chris then that is because they have such amazing charisma, and wrestling ability aside, Chris wasnt the most charismatic performer, even if I was a big fan. Cena is good, but Trips and Shawn are way better

2003-2005 was the worst period for the WWE since the mid-90's. Nobody wanted to see HHH be world champion for that long and he made sure others wouldn't be. Why do you think the IC and the World Titles were unified?

Benoit was having amazing matches on Smackdown and was the best wrestler in the world at the time. It should have been HHH and Benoit but HHH couldn't have that so he had to add his buddy HBK and just to make sure that they staved relevant, they had to continue their feud that should have ended in 2003 which culminated in one of the worst HIAC matches I've ever seen.

As far as Cena goes, he is now on the same level as HHH and HBK in terms of quality and putting on great matches and he's a better draw than both of him.

 

[pepentorresHHH]

I agree with certain points and disagree with some....
I like cena.... Used to hate him with passion....although i still dont enjoy the wrestling part of john cena i respect the hell out of the guy...
With that said, i joined the thread to put mny 2 cents about an issue that bothered me
Someone here said that shawn passed the torch to cena and the op said. That no one passed the torch to cena... IMO HHH passed the torch to cena at WM 22 because HHH carried the compy for the last almost 4 years... Either for good or bad but he did it... It was when HHH tapped to Cena that cena became the MAN on raw.. As you said before that point everyone knew HHH was the man on raw and even for the build up for their match on mania not many people believed that cena could actually beat the gane...but he did.. And from that point on Cena was viewed as the man on raw...

 

[DMac84]

Cena is good for the business because like many, I love to hate him. I cant stand when he comes out and spits his do-good attitude to the kids and salutes like hes in the Military (I am in the Military so its like meh).

But thats why he is so good... because I hate him so much, I have to watch him. I guess he is like The Rock used to be (Even tho I love The Rock)... some people loved him, while the Austin fans hated him.

All that being said, I cant wait for his return so I can Boo him again. Unless he comes back full fledged Heel, flipping off the crowd and swearing at the children, at which point he will become my all time favorite wrestler. <3

 

[skeet mg]

Although Cena was VERY over before beating JBL, i believe that JBLs character put Cena even more over. JBL has great mic skills and gets the crowd to hate him in an instant, and he had held the title for 10 months, a lot of it through cheating and interference from his cabinet, making him one of the biggest heels, and elevating John Cena to be the top face of the WWE.

Yes, after Cena a lot of guys got to the main event after Cena, but keep in mind during a lot of his title reign HHH was injured and when he returned he feuded with ric flair while Cena was finishing up with Angle and starting to feud with Edge. Since HHH was gone it opened up the doors for others to step into the main event since HHH wasnt there to destroy the main event scene.

Also, soon enough after WM22, HHH reunited DX with HBK and wasnt chasing after the WWE title as much, keeping the door open for guys like Edge to hold on to the strap.

Anyway, I do think people may overlook his days in 03-04 when he did have a decent move set, not just the few we see today because Vince limits the moveset. Cena did work very hard to get where hes at and for things like that, even though I may not like him very much, i have to respect him.

 

[The Viper Orton]

Points I agree with

3)Cena has helped every star who has burned after him more than anyone else.
4)Cena started when HHH wasn't finished:
7)No matter what you say about his wrestling , his mic work , his look , his attitude and ... In his era , he has the most talent in the only category that matters in wrestling (and many other industries) : He can make people care.

Points I don't agree with and ill justify why

1)JC became the top guy , without having the " torch " passed to him:

JBL was the longest reinning champion since .... years.He had kept that belt for 7-8 moths if I remember correctly. People hated him so much(some for hate of heel, and others for seeing he doens't have enough skills) , because he has beaten anyone including eddie, and if i'm correct a booker comeback and etc.. JBL has putten bobby lashley over by US champ. Ask Lashley how his days went in WWE. JBL had a legit "passing the torch theory". However i agree he is not on the level of passing the torch by triple h. Another point Warrior and Hogan were over without torch passing. Iron sheikh was as good or as bad as JBL, he wasn't superior, even though he was top much longer. So if JBL wasn't eligeble to pass the toch, neither was sheik.

Never forget john cena feuded with biscoff and angle, has taken jericho out of WWE, and beaten the long waiting of fans HBK title shot cleanly all the times. If that wasn't putting over then what is?

2)WWE was weaker than before when Cena got to the top ,and Cena's helped it to get stronger:

Agree with WWE was weaker before cena got to the top. But was it a coincidence it was the same time it was known brock is leaving? Of course it does.

Cena helped make it stronger? Really? He was top face, and he helped the most in his generation (excluding miz from ur list). Sometimes when two feud, one side helps the other or pushes him far. Cena didn't do that to any person until recently. Even sheamus even though taking the title from sheamus, got over when getting over triple H. Edge had his kane feud that pushed him. Cena helped make more money, but the division stronger? NO WAY

5)Cena loses way too much for the top guy.

How about jericho the top heel at a day, and then the next day looses to the likes of bourne that he wasn't taken seriously at times? How about rock loosing to Hurricane? Did John Cena ever loose to Santino? When that happens well argue ur point

You said it yourself that guys like HHH, SCSA, the rock, Hart, HBK had each other to push and john cena had no one? correct?... so he had to loose someday and the best that WWE had to offer was Edge etc....

6)Cena is able to get reactions as loud as Austin and Rock.

I don't know how to discuss this, but are u serious? Cena wresltemania reaction=austin and rock raw reactions.
enough said





Props to harrythem as he made far more superior points than mine

 

[The Crock]

You cannot be serious right? John Cena loses too much? Errr... What? Please, go skim through 2 months of Attitude Era show results and you'll see how many times Austin and Rock lost. Did that make any difference? Hell no. Cena doesn't even lose that much to begin with. He loses clean RARELY and he gets a dirty loss here or there. That combined with the fact that he ALWAYS rallies back earned him the nickname Super Cena. Cena's made a career of not losing. It's his character, much like Hogan in the 80s.

Also, Viper Orton, Cena gets insane reactions. The man is just as big of a star as Rock and Austin were. People have got to deal with that. Cena is already turning into a legend, and you're honestly questioning his reactions? Have you watched any WWE lately? When Cena shows up the entire crowd combusts and goes into a frenzy. 'Nuff said.

Yarrie, '03 - '05 was PAINFUL to watch at times. I didn't want to tune in sometimes, just because I knew it was goig to be the "HHH Show" all over again. I got sick of the same shit over and over again, random thrown together feuds were all over, and then on the rare occasion there was a feud that made sense they would ride it until there was no tomorrow and sap all the life out of it. That was a TERRIBLE time in wrestling.

 

[mrpops]

Cena is the ultimate heel right now and has been the best heel the day he moved to RAW. I hate the guy so much. Do you guys understand how happy i am when he loses? Supercena never loses. When he does, its like the ultimate celebration. He is exactly like HHH was that one horrible year(booker t/goldberg/nash/steiner...which all happened to be WCW failures...LOL).

I have nothing against the man in real life. I just hate him and i love watching him fail. It rarely happens. The whole nexus storyline has been the best thing in forever. I loved watching cena getting bullied around.

People need to realize that he is best face(for kids/women) and the ultimate heel for men. He is two things at once. What other guy has ever achieved that status? JC is awesome!

I demand he beats the undertaker at wrestlemania and becomes the ultimate "heel"(Which in reality would make him the most over/entertaining face since his rapper gimmick on smackdown).

 

[The Mark of Zur-En-Arrh]

People need to realize that he is best face(for kids/women) and the ultimate heel for men. He is two things at once.

That's not really something to celebrate though is it? That he can split the crowd? As long as you get a reaction then fine, but surely no wrestler would want to split the audience the way Cena does. You make them all hate you or all love you, not a mix. You're either a face or a heel.

He's not a heel to 18yr+ olds, he's a face that they seriously dislike. Those people think John Cena is shit at his job, and that's about it.

Anyway, i'll agree with just about everything the OP said, but please let's not start comparing Cena to Batman. His closest comic book counterpart is Superman if anything.

And i don't say that in a 'Super Cena never gets beaten' way, it's that his characteristics are more akin to Superman, the person.

He'll fight for any good cause, even if it's to his own detriment, just look at Survivor Series as an example.

He'll also do anything to achieve his goals as long as it's not through underhanded tactics.

His strength and resilience continues to make people watch on in awe, and seeminlgy has no upper limits.

He has loads of abilities at his disposal, but can easily get the job done with his basic abilities more often than not.

He is the champion of the people, whether they want him or not.

Taker is WWE's 'Dark Knight'. 'I bash the fuck out of anyone who deserves it, and rarely ever get beaten. I don't fraternise with people, i don't mix well with others, and everyone fears me, even the people i help.'

I agree with all the reasons the OP gave why we should all respect Cena. But a Dark Knight? Actually being 'Dark' helps.

 

[Ferbian]

I'm not really sure what to say about this. Most of it I completely agree with you to the bone. John Cena is one of the best entertainers today, and he's definitely this generations top star and top draw and all that stuff.

However, I must say that there's 2 things I don't quite get with this whole thing. You say John Cena started while Triple H wasn't even done. I'm not quite sure what you mean, just because he turned face at the time he did changes nothing. Triple H has always been a huge part of WWE, as well as one of the best things professional wrestling had been able to offer in the past 15 years time. Triple H was more than warranted to turn if he wanted to, and John Cena still managed to make it work every single bit as much as he wanted to.

John Cena was able to still get a big reaction next to a face, or for that sake a more beloved heel Triple H. John has always been the guy to both kayfabe as well as in reality excel where the odds are against him. The very fact that he has thrived as the top star for more or less 5 years time shows every bit of this.

Also, I don't get why you think that John looses too much. He's one of the dominant guys, but even the dominant guy looses, and even the top face looses. Hulk Hogan barely lost cause he was pulling strings in the back of who he didn't like to job to obviously. But he still lost, the same goes for Rock and for Austin. Both who has lost plenty, especially looking at their resume in terms of world titles. The same can be said for John Cena, but he still doesn't have a problem making his opponents look good with him on the defeat on occasions.

Besides, John loosing is a major deal in terms of pushing a WWE talent. John Cena is a beast of an opponent. His matches with Randy Orton and Batista has proved this every single time. John Cena is not a person to underestimate, kayfabe or not.

So, beating John Cena is something that is done when it makes sense. It just so happens to maybe make sense a little more often than some times. But he's certainly also a guy on quite a winning streak. The past years time there's hardly a moment you can truly list him being beaten dead-clean.

I'm not sure about the batman reference. But either way I agree with what you're saying.

 

[Hulk Hogan's Brother]

1)JC became the top guy , without having the " torch " passed to him:

Hogan had Sheik who just ended a six or seven year lasting reign of Bob Bauckland , Warrior had Hogan , Bret Hart had Ric Flair ,Taker (kinda) had Hogan, HBK & Austin had Hitman and VKM, Rock and HHH had each other , their stables and Austin in further years ,Y2J had Rock & Austin in the same night (Damn , I miss Jericho.) Lesnar had Rock.

Who did Cena beat in order to win the championship for the first time?JBL.

I mean Are you serious?Some may compare him to Hogan having Sheik but even Sheik was hated enough to make a star , but JBL?!

The fact is that Cena already had had the torch before beating JBL , He was without a shadow of a doubt the most over guy in WWE from the begining of 2004 , and he earned it without needing anyone to put him over , the only thing he needed was to be himself on mic before each and every match.(I don't mean that no one helped him , Certainly lots of people helped him , but he didn't get as much as the guys who came before him.

Heck , even Batista had HHH and Flair.

JBL was an extremely hated heel. He held on to the title for a year after winning it in controversial fashion from Eddie Guerrero who was a huge fan favorite. Then he continued to hold on to his title despite possibly never winning a match clean. So yeah the point is JBL was hated. The amount of heat he generated is comparable to what HBK generated as the heel leader of DX from whom Austin won his first title.

Also Cena had feuds with Jericho and Angle just after he won his title. That is also a part of passing the torch. And you surely cannot say that Angle and Jericho were not hated enough as heels.

2)WWE was weaker than before when Cena got to the top ,and Cena's helped it to get stronger:

Rock,Austin,Lesnar,and even Goldberg were gone , HBK,Angle were good but they weren't money-makers , and even if they were , they were not in Cena's generation and they belonged to the past.

In a simple way , WWE was ready and needed to refresh its roster at time, But no one was as big as Cena.

Orton?He was tried and even main-evented SS , but he didn't work out.Batista?he started his way to top in a higher level , but he didn't live up to expectations.

Austin , Angle , Jericho , Rock , HHH , Taker , Foley had each other.Cena mostly didn't have anyone.

Dude do you have any proof? Show me how much Cena being champion resulted in an increase in ratings or PPV buys. The simple fact is the ratings remained the same as they were before Cena becoming WWE Champion. You can say that Cena has helped WWE maintain their position of supremacy but you cannot say he strengthened WWE.

Also Cena had Edge to feud with. After that he feuded with HHH. Then guys like Shawn Michaels, Randy Orton and Batista. All of them are as good as Cena and guys like HHH and HBK are even better.

3)Cena has helped every star who has burned after him more than anyone else.

Edge,Orton,Sheamus,Barret (or should I say Nexus),Miz.

Jeff Hardy and Rey Mysterio (CM Punk??) can be counted as expectations but they were on SD so Cena actually could do nothing.

the first 3 won their first championship from Cena (I'm officially ignoring Orton's first), Miz was a joke before feud with Cena , and I assure you the only reason Nexus is still relevant is Cena..

This is mostly true. Though I would say that Orton did not reach the peak of his popularity only after his feud with HHH in 2009. Sheamus too gained more notoriety after putting The Game out of action. He wasn't looked upon as a huge deal even after winning the title from Cena.

4)Cena started when HHH wasn't finished:

Whenever i watch WM22 , I get confused.Is HHH insane?Is he that arrogant?Is he a big piece of shit?Is the creative that stupid?Or It's just a big misunderstanding on my side.

HHH was the top heel for years , but he decides to turn face right in the beginning of Cena vs. HHH rivalry.

Yes I know , Lots of people are gonna say " People chose to cheer him and boo Cena ".Yes.Indeed , It may be true.But It's ain't about people.

HHH acted during the whole feud like he is a big babyface.He introduces his newest nickname " Kings of Kings " , even a new cool theme song by motorhead , and all of this happened why he logically should have helped a new star to develope , not to make one out of himself.

First of all the "King of Kings" nickname was introduced in 2008. At least I think so. I could be wrong here though

Also I cannot understand why people make a big deal about it. Do heels not have cool entrance music? Is it the first time that HHH has come out to a live performance of his entrance music. He has done it before against Undertaker at WM 17. The Undertaker did not get booed then. And he was not even the face of the company like Cena was at WM 22. Still Cena got booed and that fact does not change. Its Cena's fault and not anyone else's.

5)Cena loses way too much for the top guy.

Everybody has beaten Cena.Every babyface has beaten him cleanly.

Orton,HHH,,HBK,Batista,Sheamus has beaten him fair and square.

Barret,Edge,Big show,JBL, have beaten him via pinfall or KO, numerous times , but not exactly cleanly.


How many times did u see guys like Austin and Rock lose?

Totally wrong statement here. Only HBK, HHH and Orton have beaten him clean in a one on one match. Rest have maybe one or two wins ove Cena but they have been by unfair means.

6)Cena is able to get reactions as loud as Austin and Rock.

That's a fact if you understand Ovation is not Reaction.

Last Monday ,you saw that he got people to React , no matter who they are.

He may be boed by lots of guys , but hell in past few years , I can name countless episodes of Raw or PPVs which absolutely had no reactions if it wasn't for Cena.Cena's part of the show is 90% of the times the loudest part.If you don't believe in Sounds you hear from your TV set , I suggest you to go to a Raw live event to realize what i say.

Yes he gets a huge reaction. But the job of a face is to get cheered. If a face does not get it done means he is not doing a good job. Austin and Rock got just pops that probably surpass Cena's reactions. So in no way can you say that Cena is better than Austin or Rock.

7)No matter what you say about his wrestling , his mic work , his look , his attitude and ... In his era , he has the most talent in the only category that matters in wrestling (and many other industries) : He can make people care.

This is the reason no matter how sometimes Orton's,HHH's or other superstars get louder cheers, they are not as big as Cena.Orton had a feud with HHH in 2004.Did people care about him or the feud?Orton had a match with Sheamus at SS.Did you hear anything during the match?That's what I'm talking about.

I agree with this part and this is the reason he is the face of the company. However as my earlier points prove he is not the best ever and nor is he even close. So its ludricous to compare him to Austin and Rock.

 

[GLOBAL ICON]

Fully agreed. Cena is the top dog now. He is the one who makes us care about Monday Night RAW. I know that most of you switch on your T.V sets for RAW just to see what Cena does next. He is the guy who made RAW worth watching. And not only Barrett, Miz and Sheamus, but many established main-eventers have also become popular and get reactions due to Cena. They include Orton. Orton couldn't have been counted as one of the greatest heels if it wasn't for Cena. And yeah, this point that you mentioned about he makes us cry about the match's result is totally and positively true.

 

[Smartie]

Thank you for all of responses.Here are some of answers to some questions:

I dont agree with you saying he could be the greatest of all time. Cena is my CURRERNT favorite wrestler and i have alot of respect for him and love to watch him entertain us but IMO Stone Cold Steve Austin is the Greatest Ever

I also think that Aystin is the best ever but the point is that Cena still has +7 years in his career and lots of thing can happen in future about him ( heel turn - WWE going out of PG so Cena can prove ONCE AGAIN that he is even more entertaining in a non-PG show and lots of another things ...) so Cena is only half way through his career and this inicates that we can expect lots of great things from him.

Ratings and buy rates have headed in one direction since he became "the guy" and that's not the right direction either

As long as I know , WM23 and WM22 had more than 1 million buys which is even more than mighty WM 17 buyrate.

And about ratings , As long as i remember ratings in 2005,2006 and 2007 were more than 2003 & 2004.

The other point is that If it wasn't for Cena , Ratings would be even worse.Take Raw after Summer Slam 2008 as an example.After Cena left for a couple of months , while Jericho and Batista and HBK were Raw headliners , Ratings dropped to below 3 , but the night Cena returned , Ratings went back to +3.2 and never looked back.

Sheamus has never beaten Cena clean

Umm ... Do you remember their First match?

And by the way , Cena's wrestling style gives the opponent a lot of time to offence and it really helps the guy to shine.

And about Cena destroying Miz and Nexus ,Well , I think you're wrong.Nexus would be nothing If it wasn't for Cena and Miz was introduced to WWE Universe his feud with Cena.What were you expecting?Miz beating Cena cleanly in his first singles PPV match?!!

but not even close to the level of reaction that Austin and Rock used to get

Ironically , If you own a copy of WM 20 DVD, you can obviously see and hear that Cena gets the loudest cheer of night , even louder than Rock , Austin , Benoit , Eddie and maybe even Taker.So he is able to get louder reaction than them in the same night.

I didn't say he always gets reactions as loud as Rock and Austin , but there has been quite number of live events which has done it.

although I would prefer it if he stood up for the lesser wrestlers but, again, that's another rant for another thread

You must be kidding me?In recent years he has stood up for lots of guys , including Evan Bourne , Daniel Bryan , Barret in the last year.

There was a recent interview of Wade Barret which he said Cena has helped him as much as he could and as i said in spoiler tags , you never hear about anyone talking shit about him and people usually complement or thank him in their speeches.(Though these interviews may not be a reliable source , but it's the only one we have.)

Most people also know he's like a modern day Hulk Hogan. The whole Hulking up, lack of selling, and the way kids worship him. Hell even my fiances 12 year old nephew wrote an English report on him.

I believe there's a SupeCena , BUT WOULD YOU PLEAS STOP COMPARING HIM TO HOGAN?

In last few months , You've seen he has easily pinned by a Batista Bomb , Wasteland , RKO or even husky Harris's Finisher.Yes he makes superhero come backs no way in hell they are as stupid and childish as Hogan's.

Not to be the Batman nerd ( which I am anyways) , but one of the quotes in "The Dark Knight" said " I'm whatever they need me to be". This sums up Cena in every possible way. He lets the fans react to him in any way they see fit. He doesn't try to be the good guy. He is him. Open to anyone's opinion and interpratation. He isn't going to try and make you change your opinion.

That's the exact same reason why we call Batman The Dark Knight , and I ,like you,think it can be applied to Cena in every aspect.Glad that you got it

But a Dark Knight? Actually being 'Dark' helps.

It's not about the outfit , But About " Being what people need to be " that makes one Dark Knight(Half joking-half serious)

Although Cena was VERY over before beating JBL, i believe that JBLs character put Cena even more over. JBL has great mic skills and gets the crowd to hate him in an instant, and he had held the title for 10 months, a lot of it through cheating and interference from his cabinet, making him one of the biggest heels, and elevating John Cena to be the top face of the WWE.

And about the JBL thing , I agree that he was a big heel at the time but there's no way you could compare him to the other "Torch passers"!

You said it yourself that guys like HHH, SCSA, the rock, Hart, HBK had each other to push and john cena had no one? correct?... so he had to loose someday and the best that WWE had to offer was Edge etc....

I believe that Cena loses way too more than what he should in order to people not say that "SuperCena never loses!"

I don't know how to discuss this, but are u serious? Cena wresltemania reaction=austin and rock raw reactions.

Answered.

People need to realize that he is best face(for kids/women) and the ultimate heel for men. He is two things at once. What other guy has ever achieved that status? JC is awesome!

That's what I LOVE and ENDURE about Cena.

The term controversial has been used by lots of wrestling figures in order to show that how someone is so cool.Bischoff and DX are the top ones among them.

But if you want real controversy , You only need to look at JC.What he done last Monday and rest of his career was a kinda achievement that only Rock , Austin and maybe Foley had been able to do.He could get a brand new kind of chant out of everyone.Everyone was saying either Let's go Cena or Cena sucks.No one ever has been able to do so and will never be.

However, I must say that there's 2 things I don't quite get with this whole thing. You say John Cena started while Triple H wasn't even done. I'm not quite sure what you mean, just because he turned face at the time he did changes nothing. Triple H has always been a huge part of WWE, as well as one of the best things professional wrestling had been able to offer in the past 15 years time. Triple H was more than warranted to turn if he wanted to, and John Cena still managed to make it work every single bit as much as he wanted to.

John Cena was able to still get a big reaction next to a face, or for that sake a more beloved heel Triple H. John has always been the guy to both kayfabe as well as in reality excel where the odds are against him. The very fact that he has thrived as the top star for more or less 5 years time shows every bit of this.

I totally saw HHH's attempts in 2006 as a way to pull Cena down.I could be 100% wrong or sound like a big idiot but I think HHH really hated Cena at the time.First of all his boys were out of Raw by Cena and Cena wasn't HHH's suggestion for the next big guy.

And the fact is that HHH hasn't been the top guy ever.He's beeen champ most of the time after 2002 but only as a heel , which in my eyes doesn't make him the top guy.

Even Batista in his classic pre-WM 26 promo mentioned that the torch was passed from Austin to Cena.No HHH in between.

 

[harrythem]

If you watch the Wrestlemania 20 DVD you'll also see they've edited out Ultimo Dragon's slip as he entered, post production can be a beautiful thing as, having watched WM20 recently (a taped to dvd version of the event, not the official dvd) during a WM stint with my little brother, Cena's reaction wasn't anywhere near Rock or Austin got. Not a knock on him as no-one gets that kinda reaction (with the exception of Hogan) and wont get close to it until we have that next SDS!

As for sticking up for the little guys. I'm talking about things like him saying it's right that WWE doesn't provide a health-care system for its independent contractors, or going out on a limb and pointing out some of the stupid stuff creative makes him, and others do. Yeah he can help people but, seeing as he's the WWE's number one guy (by a long shot) there's a whole helluva lot more he could do to help the rank and file wrestlers, then he does. Being Mr company guy he doesn't though