Can a high-flyer be an effective heel?

[cm ben]

Hi everyone. This is my first thread, so, as everyone always prefaces before their first thread, I hope I'm "doing it right," you know.

In a bunch of threads lately, I've been reading about how X Superstar could never be a heel, because their style wouldn't match: Bourne wouldn't fit in the SES, Kofi wouldn't be over with a heel turn, etc.

I see where this logic comes from--people like to cheer for impressive moves, and whatnot--but I'm not convinced that fans couldn't cheer impressive moves while still booing the character himself, especially if the wrestler in question were good enough on the mic to generate some real heat.

What do you think? Do you think fans can judge a character independently of his moveset, or are high-flyers always doomed to be eternal faces?

I'm thinking of some examples from the past...
-Essa Rios turned heel after breaking up with Lita
-The Hardy Boyz turned heel, I think, when they teamed up with Gangrel?
-Edge and Christian are arguably high flyers? And they were both heel when they were vampires, and directly afterwards, when they did their pausing for photo-op thing.

Were these people over as heels? (When these exapmles occured, I was 7-9 years old, so I'm legitimately unsure) Do any examples of effective past heel high-flyers come to mind?

Thanks guys. Hope my thread doesn't sux

 

[Spidey Revivey]

Off the top of my head (in the WWE) I would say Billy Kidman was a good heel. He wasn't over, but he made it very convincing while still maintaining a high-flying moveset.

Eddie Guerrero now, he was over as a heel in the last bit of his career, though he was much more technical then a high-flyer. Still did his Frogsplash and all of that however.

John Morrison is the same; but I wouldn't call him a high-flyer. Usually that is reserved for faces in the WWE, and that really is a shame.

In my honest opinion, I think a superstar can get over as both a true heel and a high-flyer. It's just really rare to see one for some reason in modern wrestling. I remember playing a Raw vs. Smackdown game where I wanted to play Dirty and do moonsaults and shit, and it took away from my momentum meter making me go So yeah I can't wait to read some examples on this thread on "bad guy high flyers". Props.

 

[klunderbunker]

I suppose it's possible, but it's not like it happens that often. The problem is fans like to cheer for exciting wrestlers. Look at Punk for a great example. Remember when he was teaming with Kofi. he was using suicide dives and springboard clotheslines and other high flying moves. One of the best heels in the business. Now look at AJ Styles. He uses the same moves and he's kind of over as a heel but not to the extent the company would want him as. Like someone else said, Eddie is the only thing close to an example that I can think of, but it's very rare. Also a lot of it has to do with who they're fighting. Eddie mainly feuded with Rey who flew better than he did. It made Eddie look more toned down while being a heel which made it easier to boo him. It's possible, but everything has to go right in order to get it to work. It's not easy at all, but not impossible.

 

[Sean Valjean]

Before the mult-quote of DOOM, good thread topic for a first time. Don't hate me for what I'm about to do:

-Essa Rios turned heel after breaking up with Lita

If I remember correctly, no one really cared about Rios and any interest he may have recieved was intercepted by Lita. They probably just turned him heel to get Lita away from him and with high flyers that people actually cared about.

-The Hardy Boyz turned heel, I think, when they teamed up with Gangrel?

Yes, they did. They got decent heat, I'll give you that. Personally, I couldn't boo them. Hard to hate anyone that does cool aerial moves AND rises from a ring of fire.

-Edge and Christian are arguably high flyers? And they were both heel when they were vampires, and directly afterwards, when they did their pausing for photo-op thing.

They take risks, but they're hardly high flyers so this is a moot point.

Now, that isn't to say that high flyers can't make good heels. AJ Styles is one of the best high flyers around and he's playing a pretty effective heel right now. Though the key is his mic work and that he's altered his ring work to fit a heel. He still flies around, but he keeps his opponent grounded more than he used too in addition to taunting/yelling at the fans. Christopher Daniels and Brian Kendrick have managed to pull it off pretty well too. It's possible, but they just have to work at it a little harder than other guys.

What makes it tough is that high flyers are generally smaller guys, and smaller guys are usually seen as underdogs. It's just natural to want to cheer for them. And of course, the moveset is a big reason too; hard to boo a guy that does a picture perfect Shooting Star Press.

So in short, it could work, it just depends on the high flyer in question. Though that applies to anyone no matter what size; not everyone would make a good heel. Though I feel high flyers have to try a little harder than everyone else would.
.

 

[Klown_Karnage]

The main difficulty high-flyers and cruserweights have when it comes to being heels is that heel-style fighting doesn't allow them to use their particular talents. MVP referred to heel-style wrestling as "meat-chopping" and that pretty much sums it up. Granted, high-flyers and cruserweights can go heel. Eddie Guerrero was a great heel while still being a high-flyer. Tajiri was also a great heel and I believe he would also count in the high-flying and risk taking category. The Hardys are also a great example both when under Gangrel and then Matt numerous times afterwards. Let's not forget Gregory Helms here as well.

I have to say that it was easier for cruserweights and high-flyers to be heels when the cruserweight division still existed. Then, they were needed. Now, when it's cruserweights vs. heavyweights, the high-flyers are just too exciting to be long-term heels. It's possible, but they're usually used as jokes and/or punching bags for large faces on their way to another title run. Can we say Jamie Noble?

 

[Ducey13]

Bottomline, it doesn't matter what style you wrestle, if your good at being bad then you can be a legitimate heel.

It may be true that WWE does like to keep most of their high flyers as faces, but they don't have too and their are exceptions.

There are 4 catagories for all wrestlers. Guy who work better as faces, guys who work better as heels, Guys who suck no matter what, and the ever rare group of guys who can work as either a heel or a face.

For example: Clearly Edge works better as a heel. He just tried a face turn and it didn't really get over. He could always go face again in the future, but the majority of his career he should be remebered as a heel. Same for Jericho, there were times he was very over as a face BUT He CLEARLY works better as a heel. Stone Cold Steve Austin was an awesome face, but alot of people didn't like his work as a heel. Hogan and Flair are two guys who could either be a major heel or major face for a company

 

[Viola Moonlight]

People appreciate it when wrestlers do something out of the ordinary or take a lot of athleticism to accomplish just for the purposes of entertainment, such as any move done under the category of "high-flying," which will always get a positive reaction out of the crowd in terms of getting them excited (something that the role of a face is responsible for). It's very hard in making the audience hate you for being the vibrant spotmonkey... that is if you are just playing the role of a wrestler who flies.

The only way that a high-flier can be considered an effective heel is to give them some sort of gimmick that contains traits that audiences will boo quite frequently. Take AJ Styles for example. His persona he is currently playing has particular qualities that get people annoyed and frowned upon, thus leading to the decision to go against AJ. What intensifies this hatred is that he can actually back up what he does in his persona with a move-set that involves high-flying. Wouldn't you be pissed off that someone can talk smack to your face and defeat you with a flash and fancy move-set?

What I'm trying to get at is you need the said high-flier who you want to be heel to be able to use their charismatic skills for trash-talking, to the likes that people will boo you for. Cheap heat is an excellent way to start off. Take knocks on the town's favourite sporting team, or dis the United States Army. Make them have a gimmick that makes them better off than the common person and roll with it (Christopher Daniels), or give them something that screams douche-bag (Brian Kendrick).

It's possible, but most of the time, it's a better fit to keep the exciting guys exciting the crowd (and being a face). A lot of the time, these high-fliers haven't got the best charismatic skills in the world for people to take notice of or care about, so using their in-ring skills to get over is the easy way out of building up the wrestlers. Guys like Chris Daniels and AJ Styles can pull it off, but you'll need a shitload of work from everyone involved in making/building the heel run succeed... something that most people don't have the time for.

 

[Greenlight13]

In the WWE? No. Not at all. In TNA? Maybe a little. In the independents? Absolutely. And here's why.

The WWE audience watch specifically to see entrances, finishing moves, celebrations and promo interaction between their favourites. This is why despite the clamoring of the IWC, WWE get away with doing 3 minute matches, because the fans get to see what they wanted. All Jeff Hardy needed to do was make his entrance with the pyro, face-paint, waving his arms, doing his taunt, Twist of Fate, Swanton, celebrate, leave. Literally, all he had to do.

WWE fans don't necessarily watch every week. WWE fans may not remember what happened 6 months ago, let alone several years ago. They want quick, easy gratification. They want flash. They want to go oooo.

True high-flyers utilize the ropes for almost all of their key moves. Jumping off them, running them to hit a leaping move of some kind, diving over/through them etc. Rey Mysterio is a high-flyer because if you take away the ropes he has a very limited arsenal. The moves everyone know him for require them. Val Venis was not a high-flyer because most of his moves were straight-up, and he took to the top rope only to hit the Money Shot.

Eddie Guerrero fluctuated back and forth in terms of his style, at times he'd use tornado DDT's, diving hurricanranas, missile dropkicks and others he'd wrestle entirely on the ground before hitting the Frog Splash. When mainstream high-flyers turn heel, they do as he did, they cut out almost all of their flying moves, become more grounded, taking to the ropes maybe only once per match. Morrison did this by breaking out the corkscrew moonsault or starship pain or the flying chuck only every so often and never more than one in the same match. Essa Rios did it as far as I can recall, using only the Moonsault when he was heel. E&C weren't high-flyers. The Hardyz' heel turn was... iffy at best.

So basically, the fans go too crazy over a true high-flyer for them to be a heel, and the ones that do it, tune down their offense to the point they're not really high-fliers anymore.

But on the indies it's not only possible, it's been seen several times. Generation ME/The Young Bucks were major major heels in PWG and they are unquestionably high-fliers. They turned it down a little, sure, but not to the degree Eddie or others did. Evan Bourne/Matt Sydal did it during the end of his ROH run. They turned him into a cocky athlete with a hot-shot manager. He did the same in Wrestling Society X but replaced the manager with a hot valet.

Why does it work in the indies? While they are impressed by crazy high-flying, they see wrestling way more often than WWE fans, they've seen almost everything before, they have long memories, and they don't want instant gratification. They feel short-changed by matches under 5 minutes. They want a lengthy story.

Most important of all, indie fans are essentially a collection of amateur critics. They can look at a heel, boo him, cheer like hell for the other guy to win, hate it and throw things in the ring when he wins, but still applaud when he does something good, because they appreciate good wrestling, regardless of who is doing it, heel or face. They are also assessing how good the heel is at being a heel, and will cheer him for being a dick, but that's besides the point. So an indie fan can witness a crazy high-flying move, cheer, go crazy, chant, but then go right back to hating on the guy. Call it the Michael Jordan effect. Sure, opposing teams hated the Bulls, probably got sick of them dominating, but when Jordan did something crazy, away fans would cheer. Some away fans brought signs related to Number 23. Same deal with indie fans and high spots.

But how do you do it without going too far? Well, you do it with an attitude. You cut corners to set up for your crazy high-flying moves. You strut to the ring with a cocky smirk on your face. You insult the fans. You act like a complete dick. You brag about your unrivaled athleticism. You run away from a challenge, attack your rivals from behind, preferably you have a mouth-piece or valet to generate extra heat. People admire athletic brilliance, but they hate arrogance. LeBron James has been accused of it. I personally think he's a douche for tattooing "The Chosen One" on his neck, but can appreciate how damn good he is whilst hating him.

So there you have it, a short essay for a simple answer of... yes and no. It can't be done in the WWE, it's difficult in TNA, but it's possible in the indies, so long as the high-flyer is arrogant and uses his own brilliance to fuel his ego and draw heat.

 

[schaeffershawn]

It would depend on what and who you would classify as a high flyer. HBK was considered one when he was IC champion and he was prtty darn good. Waltman is but poepel just hate him as a human being so again it depends. The best example of a "high flyer" who was a heel, Superfly Jimmy Snuka worked as a heel for most of the 70's and was over as hell.

 

[Gallops]

I think using AJ Styles as an example is honestly a stretch. He's doing alright as a heel, but it's TNA, not the WWE. TNA isn't pushing guys who can sell, they're pushing guys the fans want to see, which in all honesty, is hurting their business.

Can a high-flyer be an effective heel? Absolutely. But to do that, they need to have tremendous mic skills. I can't remember the last high-flyer who was an effective heel in the WWE. I think if a guy like Evan Bourne picked up either a valet (Maryse?) or a big enforcer to help him win matches dirty, plus changed his in ring style a bit to keep his opponents grounded, AND worked in a standing finisher to go along with the SSP, then maybe he could do it.

 

[TokiRKO]

Let's not forget Y2J himself. One of his signatures is the Lionsault, aka an IN ring asai moonsault. He also has that cool jumping enzigiri. Not sure if he'd technically be a ''high flyer'' but he does have a handful of moves to fit.

 

[llhawkmanll]

There have been plenty of heel type characters that have been high flyers or performed arial moves. The problem though is that they tend to be turned face at some point but honestly most people change face and heel throughout their career anyway. Look at a guy like RVD or Sabu. They were heels when they first started. Guys like Kendrick, Lowki and Christopher Daniels have also maintained a high flying/risky moveset and carry off heel personas

 

[richunclescrooge]

I think it can be done

the high flyer heel has to slow down some of his pace tho

the high flying moves can be used if they seem methodically set up rather than in the excitement of the moment as they would with faces, and a high flyer heel would probably be less flashy with the moves and use them more sparingly.

or the heel could be, well, a heel about it.

example: heel takes off the turnbuckle pad when the ref is not looking and later in the match flapjacks the opponent into it, then hits his move

example of example (lol): evan bourne ties kofi up in the ropes during his heat, the ref tries to untie him. while that is going on, bourne takes the top turnbucle pad off a corner. later in the match kofi is having his comeback and works bourne over to that corner. kofi runs to the opposite corner, then back looking to do his "jump and sit on the top rope and punch the guy" move, bourne sees it coming and flapjacks him onto the exposed turnbuckle and kofi sells to the ground perpendicular with the corner. bourne gets a sick smile on his face and milks it for a lil bit, slowly climbs the turnbuckle, hits the shooting star and gets the pin.

 

[dd23beatlesfan1]

While it's rare, it is possible for a high-flyer to be a heel. It all depends on his character and gimmick. I'll give you two more old-school examples, two of which I'm surprised haven't been mentioned.

The first one is Jimmy "Superfly" Snuka. Now he probably wouldn't be classified as a high flyer by today's standards, but in his time in the late '70s/early '80s he pretty much defined the term "high flyer." In addition to his Superfly splash, he was also known for his dropicks, chops off the top rope, and other moves off the ropes. And when he first came into the WWE, he was a heel. He played your typical foreign savage type heel pioneered by the Wild Samoans. And he was over as a heel big time too. Now granted having Capt. Lou Albano as his manager certainly helped get him heat, but Snuka played a good "crazy savage" type character and fans genuinely hated him/were scared of him. So he was great as a heel, but he was also insane to watch in the ring at the time. A good example was his legendary 1982 cage match with Bob Backlund for the WWF championship. He was the heel in the match definitely and the crowd was rooting against him, but yet he dazzled the audience when he went to the top of the cage and missed his superfly splash. His match a year later with Don Muraco is more well known and hyped because of the impact it had on Mick Foley, but that wasn't the first time he went to the top of the cage and went for his Superfly splash. So Snuka was a high flyer who proved to be an effective heel. Of course he would go on to become a babyface and a very popular one at that, but he also did well as a heel.

The other big example I'm surprised nobody thought of was Shawn Michaels. Now there may be some argument that Shawn wasn't a true high-flyer, and that may be true. As Shawn's arsenal certainly consisted of more than just high flyer moves. Especially as his career progressed. But the early part of his career (85-92) when he was a tag team wrestler, he was pretty much a high-flyer. After all that's how him and Marty got over, for synchronized moves and high flying moves. And when he turned heel in 1992, he like most high-flyers turned heels, altered his moveset to include more technical wrestling and more heel like moves. But he still reserved a big part of his arsenal to high flying moves pretty much the rest of his career. Even at Wrestlemania 26 against Taker, he still pulled off the moonsault onto the table. To me Shawn Michaels has always been a high flyer, even if he wrestled other styles. He could still keep up on high flying with the best of that style (see his matches with Rey Mysterio for example). And obviously Shawn was one of the most over heels in the WWF circa 1992-1995. And even in 97/98 when he was the top heel, he still pulled out some high flying moves. And how did he do it? Kind of like what Greenlight posted in his post, he dazzled the crowd with his cool, high-flying moves, but he still acted like a heel. He'd act cowardly, conceited, and just be an ass. Greenlight described it perfectly.

You can be a high-flyer, but you better have a good persona/mic skills/ring psychology/crowd psychology that's very heel like. And it's pretty easy to do. Just be arrogant and act like an asshole, and you'll get the people hating you because they want to like you because you're so good in the ring, but they just can't with you being the huge asshole that you are. That's how Shawn Michaels did it. That's how Chris Jericho did it. That's how Eddie Guerrero did it. And while Snuka's character and manner were completely different, he still did the same thing. He made the crowd dislike him for his character, even though they wanted to like him for how awesome he was in the ring. Snuka had an easier time being a heel though because he was around in an era with huge-heat grabbing managers, which is something wrestlers don't have now. No matter how likable you are, if you associated with someone like Bobby Heenan (see Andre turning heel) or Capt. Lou Albano, or the Grand Wizard, you were instantly a hated heel.

But yeah you can be a high flyer and be a heel. But it's not as easy to do, especially in this era, because then you have to work on your character and mic skills and make sure you know the psychology of being a heel, because if you don't, then yeah you'll fail.

 

[mister_b1LL]

I think it is possible to have a heel high flyer. An idea I just thought about is that someone could make his debut not in a match, but spend a few weeks doing heelish promos. When he finally has his match, he starts busting out high flying moves, but if his promos were effective, people would still boo him after the match.

It matters what you do outside of the ring as much as inside. Your backstage segments tell the audience your intentions. Now, if you're seen smiling and politely answering the questions the interviewer asks, of course you're going to be seen as a face. But if you smash a chair across John Cena's face, of course people are going to boo you. Not everybody, but a decent amount. Regardless of your fighting style there is always a way to make people hate you.

Although his heel run was cut prematurely by his release, The Brian Kendrick pulled off a great heel in my opinion. And when you have a move like the Kendrick, it's kinda hard not to boo that, but I think he was able to. He just had that swagger about him, not to mention he had a big ass bodyguard helping him. Despite being a high flyer, he qualifies as a clearcut heel.

Gregory Helms also had an amazing moveset. He also had a great face run as the Hurricane, but he decided to hate on the audience and move to a different more heelish gimmick, yet he kept his high flying moveset. And people still didn't like him.

 

[Cookie14]

I think it is possible for a high flier to be a heel, however I believe that it is a lot harder than it would be for a normal style wrestler, because fans will always cheer dangerous moves.

For a heel high flier to be a success they need to do at least two of the following three things....

1) Constanlty taunt the crowd. Not just in promos, but also during matches, especially just before they do a high flying move.

2) A 'big guy enforcer'. HBK had Diesel, Kendrick had Zeke, and there have been many others.

3) A heel manager.

they can't really have option 2 and 3, it has to be one or the other, but this isn't a problem as they serve a very similar purpose. The big guy will attack opponents,defend his own guy etc. The manager will distract the ref, taunt the crowd during matches, cut promos etc.

The only problem then is that the high flier isn't the one drawing the heat, so is he really a heel? or just part of a heelish team?

 

[Rayne]

Good thread!

While I think that a high-flyer can perform as a heel, I don't think you'll ever get the audience connection from said high-flyer that you'd get from a monster heel. A heel is supposed to represent all of those negative traits people don't like, and a skinny 180 pounder doesn't inspire fear or injustice into the hearts of fans. The high-flying heel is almost also always cocky and vain, because that's what they're limited to. A high-flying offense doesn't make you go "ooh, I hate him", it makes you go "ooooooh, that was cool." There aren't many terrifying roles for small wrestlers.

People like Kidman, Kendrick at the end (not all the way at the end) of his WWE run, Juventud, Sean "please just die already" Waltman, they've all had decent runs as heels. But they'll never be THE heel.

 

[Attitude_Raven]

if they have the character, i say yes. look at AJ Styles, he was an horrible babyface, and his heel runs were great

 

[Miss DFW]

I think it doesn't matter on the move set, but their acting skills. Hell look at BD/Cole thing going on.

 

[Flair is Overrated]

Unless I missed it somewhere in the thread, everyone is missing the greatest high-flying heel of all time (and, in my opinion, one of the top 5 heels of all time)...the Macho Man. Maybe his move set wasn't terribly impressive by today's standards, but during the golden age, he was definitely a high-flyer.

 

[FitFinlay4Life]

Shelton Benjamin is the most successful high flying heel in recent WWe times, his cocky attitude and ability to back it up beggers the question why did he never participate a top line feud? Some headliners fearful of being shown up mayhaps?

Another brilliant high flying heel is Kurt Angle- he mightn't pull it out every match, but that dude does some crazy stuff (anyone see his moonsault at Lockdown).

Haas also being a free agent means there is a great chance we'll see these two fantastic heel high flyers in the same faction again.

 

[Super Geng Boy]

What do you think? Do you think fans can judge a character independently of his moveset, or are high-flyers always doomed to be eternal faces?

Fans can judge. But hell yeah there can be a high flyer with great ability of being a heel. They just need to have the rest of the package to do it. And by that I mean charisma, mic skills but the one thing that people need mostly to be a heel is aggression. Someone brought up Shawn Michaels in this thread, I am going to go into him in some more detail. He was a crafty mother fucker. People hated him, he was a coward who walked away a winner, there could be nothing worse. But he was a high flyer, well I certainly would think so. It depends on how you define high flyer. He would use his high flying style to help him with his craft, and he was that good at it you hated it. You wanted to be like that. It worked and because of that he is considered one of the greatest wrestlers of all time.

Aggression is key, if your showing in your facial expressions and emotions that your pissed off, or full of yourself, then I do not see why high flyers cannot make good heels.

This is a good thread and question that I may think about in more detail.

 

[AlexBankmanship]

I even think that Rey Mysterio could be a good heel. I didn't say great heel but an adequate one.

You could turn him into more cocky and at times, when he's about to hit one of his signature moves, he stops and just taunts the crowd. He would leave the crowd in suspense and maybe the audience would boo him. You never know.

It's kinda like how they were building AJ Styles into a heel during one of his matches. His opponent was outside the ring, he was running and about to leap over but suddenly stops and talked trash to the crowd. That was a pretty funny moment.

 

[Tastycles]

It's certainly harder for a heel to be a high flyer. There's limitations imposed, and you certainly couldn't be the kind of meticulous, grounded heel character that recent WWE heels such as Punk, Orton and Jericho have adopted. However, you could certainly be a showboating egotistical heel with a high flying style, just look at Randy Savage as evidence of that. So, while I think high flying moves limit where you can take your character, it makes it easier, if anything, to be a showboater, which is a perfectly adequate heel. It's all in the attitude. Styles could get over much better if he too more time to taunt and be cocky in his matches.

 

[Serious Mozzarella]

I think if you're creative enough, you can turn anyone into anything regardless of their wrestling style. So yes, I do believe a high-flyer can be an effective heel in any capacity. If you have a guy who is really good on the mic paired with a creative group of writers who really know how to sink their evil teeth right into their viewers, then you could really do whatever you want.

A small part of it also deals with the wrestler's "look" and how they present themselves. Like, take a look at John Cena and Randy Orton. If John Cena came down the ramp all slow, and wrestled like a sneaky-snake in the ring, he could come off as the mega-heel that Orton has the potential to be. On the flip side, if Randy Orton came out flopping around and saluting the crowd, smiling at everyone, he could be the mega-face that Cena is currently.

It doesn't matter what kind of gimmick you give to someone, it's all about how they pull it off.

I do believe Evan Bourne and Rey Mysterio have the potential to be heels, the same as guys like Khali or the Big Show have the potential to be faces. Just give Mysterio his "mysterious" mask and have him fly down from rafters and shit.