Bruno's record broken... or has it?

[NegativeFeedback]

Professional wrestling is very big in Mexico just like it is in Japan and USA. In fact, although no national wrestling promotion has ever duplicated the popularity of the WWE, Mexico has a bunch of promotions that are on an even keel. You can say that at a time, there were about 4 wrestling promotions with the same type of presence TNA has right now.

One of those promotions was "Lucha Libre Internacional" which was governed by the fictional Universal Wrestling Association. The promotion ran for 20 years from 1975 until it's closure in 1995. However, the title has continued to be defended in various Mexican promotions ever since. On June 18 2014, Dr. Wagner, Jr. won the title and has kept it ever since. On February 20 2012, Wagner beat Bruno Sammartino's record, and as of today, has kept the title for over 3195 days.

Now, here's the tricky thing. Although this promotion was big in its hay-day, I can't find some reliable sources that Wagner keeps defending the title. So does this record really count if the title is sitting on a shelf somewhere?

But the story doesn't end there! There's this other promotion called the World Wrestling Association that started in 1986 and ran into the late 90's. It actually aired in the USA on Fox Sport's spanish channel and had some cross-promotion with WCW. Well, this promotion never officially shut down instead running irregular shows well into the millenium. As of March 21 2003, Rayo de Jalístico, Jr. is the WWA World Heavyweight Champion and broke Bruno's record on November 2 2010. Rayo seems to continue defending the title, but on an extremely irregular basis.

But this makes me wonder. How often did Bruno defend the title? Punk mentioned in a promo how Bruno rarely defended his title and that's why it was so easy to hit 7 years. Although it was said in kayfabe, there is some truth to it. How different was Bruno's reign to these two Mexican ones?

Obviously, these two guys aren't as famous as Bruno Sammartino ever was, so their records will never be talked about worldwide like Bruno's, but is that enough for us to say that Bruno's record is still intact?

I find it an interesting discussion and would like to know what other people think.

 

[The Butcher]

On June 18 2014, Dr. Wagner, Jr. won the title and has kept it ever since. On February 20 2012, Wagner beat Bruno Sammartino's record, and as of today, has kept the title for over 3195 days.

What's more impressive than the duration of the reign is the fact that it started a year from now.

But this makes me wonder. How often did Bruno defend the title? Punk mentioned in a promo how Bruno rarely defended his title and that's why it was so easy to hit 7 years. Although it was said in kayfabe, there is some truth to it. How different was Bruno's reign to these two Mexican ones?

Obviously, these two guys aren't as famous as Bruno Sammartino ever was, so their records will never be talked about worldwide like Bruno's, but is that enough for us to say that Bruno's record is still intact?

History is written by the victors. His record stands because he held what is now the most prestigious title in the world for longer than anyone else has. Anybody can hold a scrub title for as long as they want, the WWE Championship is the Holy Grail. It doesn't really matter how often he defended it, because frankly, wrestling is fake. Just as CM Punk's reign ended with a bunch of suspect, heel-style victories doesn't change the fact that he held it for the longest period in 20 years, Bruno's old-school schedule doesn't change the fact that he held the title for the longest consecutive period ever.

So to summarize: WWE, as the de facto custodians of wrestling history, determines what records matter. Scrub title is scrub title. Number of defenses doesn't matter, just duration of the reign. Bruno is the man.

 

[NegativeFeedback]

What's more impressive than the duration of the reign is the fact that it started a year from now.

LOL My bad, I obviously meant 2004.

History is written by the victors. His record stands because he held what is now the most prestigious title in the world for longer than anyone else has. Anybody can hold a scrub title for as long as they want, the WWE Championship is the Holy Grail. It doesn't really matter how often he defended it, because frankly, wrestling is fake. Just as CM Punk's reign ended with a bunch of suspect, heel-style victories doesn't change the fact that he held it for the longest period in 20 years, Bruno's old-school schedule doesn't change the fact that he held the title for the longest consecutive period ever.

So to summarize: WWE, as the de facto custodians of wrestling history, determines what records matter. Scrub title is scrub title. Number of defenses doesn't matter, just duration of the reign. Bruno is the man.

But these aren't scrub titles. They obviously aren't as big as the WWE title, but in their heyday, these titles were as big as the NWA title. That has to count for something.

 

[ABMorales787]

They are trophies. And you don't count how long you carry a trophy. These are remnants from a dead company wrestlers get to keep and do whatever they want with. These titles are only defended and change hands under the consent of the current owner. Meaning the wrestler who owns the belt can only be billed as said champion if the company wishes and the wrestler approves. Dr. Wagner hasn't been billed as "UWA World Heavyweight Champion" since 2009. It's unfair to say he's broken Sammartino's record, which was with a title with a still active company, using a belt he got from a guy who beat a guy who got it from a defunct company.

 

[MrMojoRisin]

I don't think you can really count the UWA title. It may technically still exist (or may not anymore), but the actual UWA hasn't been in existence for quite some time. To what the one guy said here though... I'd hardly call it a 'scrub' promotion. UWA was pretty well recognized back in the day, and the likes of Thesz, Inoki, Fujinami and Vader as outsiders to Lucha Libre have all worn their version of the World title at one point.

I didn't realize it until reading this thread and deciding to look stuff up, but Verne Gagne's 10 year reign as AWA champ seems to have been retconned into two separate reigns, with Dr. X getting a 2 week reign in between. Likely a title swap that was never recognized back in the day because it wasn't supposed to happen.

Talking about how often Bruno defended the title? He defended as much as any champion in a promotion that runs regular cards. I did a quick look at www.wrestlingdata.com and in January 1964 alone, he had 17 title defenses. Pretty standard, especially for the time when they'd probably run about 4 shows a week. He'd average 100-150 matches a year during his first reign according to that website, and you can figure about 70% of those matches would be title defenses.

But keep something in mind too, for anyone claiming a place like the UWA is a lesser promotion than the WWWF of that day was. The WWWF was a REGIONAL promotion. It happened to be one of the most important regions in the country, but it was a regional promotion. Most don't realize that during the time, the WWWF was a part of the NWA, and that they weren't even allowed to promote their title as a World Championship at the time, or promote their own champion above the NWA World Champion anytime that the champ would come in for a show. Unlike most other NWA territories, the WWWF rarely had their champion challenging the NWA champ when he came to town, instead billing them separately or in title vs title matches if they'd put the two together. This made them seem bigger than other territories where the NWA champ would come in to fight the local champ, because it made the WWWF title appear to be on the same level as the NWA World title.

Someone having a 3000 day title reign in a promotion like the UWA for example (if the promotion still existed), would absolutely be on par with what they had Bruno do back then... because they would be comparable promotions. Don't make the mistake of confusing the WWE of today, with it's grandfather the WWWF.

 

[Jack-Hammer]

Sammartino carried the WWWF Championship for more than 7.5 years. When he became champion, he helped the company grow and thrive for much of the next 2 decades whether or not he was champion.

Today, the WWE is the biggest & most successful wrestling company in the world. While people can debate as to which promotion in the world is the best, when most people think of pro wrestling, WWE is what first springs to mind. That level of recognition gives the WWE Championship an altogether different level of prestige in most people's eyes.

The title Dr. Wagner is carrying around is a relic from a defunct wrestling company that went out of business roughly 18 years ago. Jerry Lawler was the last WCCW Champion, but I don't think most would buy into him as someone who beat Sammartino's reign if he'd been occasionally defending the WCCW Championship since 1989 despite the fact that there is no more WCCW.