I see some people on other forums always saying Bret was overrated but I never understood how. I know the guy couldn't talk on the mic or anything but he's always been known for his incredible work in the ring, so I don't think his mic work should even matter. The only thing I can speculate people having against Bret is that he did some of the same moves every match but again that shouldn't even matter because they were part of his movesets, something which I also think is a ridiculous excuse when bashing Cena when bringing up the whole "5 moves of doom" bullshit. But anyway to all those people who call Bret overrated, could you please explain how you think he is overrated?
Bret Hart: Overrated?
- Thread starter Wolf Pac
- Start date
- Status
S.J. Maximus
Championship Contender
Bret Hart may actually be the most underrated wrestler in the history of the business. He always gets shit for his promos, everyone says he sucks on the mic but that's not even true. People say he uses the same moves in all of his matches but that's not true! Do we remember the 90's? I know his promos weren't top 10 (or top 20) worthy but he was definitely above average on the mic. Everyone expects the top face to be 100% on the mic and 100% on the mic and although he was probably the only top face to be under 80% on the mic is unquestionably the only one who was 100% in the ring. If you wanna count Shawn Michaels then go for it but Shawn was only the top guy for months, he didn't "rule the WWF from 96-98" the way everyone claims because Bret was still considered the better wrestler in 1997 and in 1998 Austin was the top guy.
Anyway, Bret Hart was the only guy that you could send out there with anybody and would get a 3-5 star match every time. Him and Michaels are the best storytellers ever and Bret is the best seller ever, he'd get his leg worked on for the first 5 mins of a match and limp his ass all the up the ramp after the match. He was a true sportsman who respected the business and worked his ass off to keep WWF afloat from 1992-1997. The only reason the WWF didn't go completely bankrupt during that time period was because Bret put the company on his back and ran until he left for WCW in 97. His mic work was above average but not spectacular, he put on promos that got a good reaction but it's not like he spewed out gold the way Roddy Piper and The Rock did. When it comes to anything related to in-ring action, he truly was the best there is, the best there was, and the best there ever will be.
Anyway, Bret Hart was the only guy that you could send out there with anybody and would get a 3-5 star match every time. Him and Michaels are the best storytellers ever and Bret is the best seller ever, he'd get his leg worked on for the first 5 mins of a match and limp his ass all the up the ramp after the match. He was a true sportsman who respected the business and worked his ass off to keep WWF afloat from 1992-1997. The only reason the WWF didn't go completely bankrupt during that time period was because Bret put the company on his back and ran until he left for WCW in 97. His mic work was above average but not spectacular, he put on promos that got a good reaction but it's not like he spewed out gold the way Roddy Piper and The Rock did. When it comes to anything related to in-ring action, he truly was the best there is, the best there was, and the best there ever will be.
The "Blueprint"
Occasional Pre-Show
Bret Hart and overrated shouldn't be in the same sentence. If anything he was underrated for his work ethic. I consider Bret Hart the greatest technical wrestler of all time even though Meltzer never admitted it. (F*ck Meltzer). People claim his best match of all time was against the British Bulldog at Summerslam of '92, well if you read his book it'll tell you Bret was the one that carried that match because Davey Boy forgot the spots. Bret Hart is a wrestler who was never handed anything and earned everything he got without any help from his father. Bret spent years in mid card hell always putting on the best matches anyone has ever seen before he even held the WWF Championship. Bret became so popular that at one point he received more fan mail than Hulk Hogan. Bret also paved the way for smaller guys like Shawn Michaels to become world champions after the whole steriod scandal almost broke the WWF. I rank Bret as the #2 wrestler of all time behind Shawn Michaels only because Michaels excelled at Bret's only flaw which was mic skills.
bigbootydaddyV
arrogant bastard
People who bash bret are fuckin idiots... You don't have to agree that he is the best there is, the best there was, and the best there ever will be, but to call him overrated?? Get the fuck out of here. Bret wasn't great on the mic, ok, but he wasn't awful either. It was a different era back then, and he did his job on the mic and had his moments. Also, he was good enough on the mic to get all of America hating him, while the rest of the world loves him, the only other polarizing superstar like that is Cena with the kiddies and grown men. Bret helped pave the way for guys whose specialty was in ring work to make it to the top. Triple H wanted to name names on the small guys who made it, who was first? Bret Hart. People see bret now and want to act like he was never one of the top guys putting on some awesome matches with all kinds of opponents. To this day no one besides bret and shawn have been able to put on great matches with such a wide variety of opponents and neither are overrated.
King_Kong_Brody
Dark Match Winner
Bret personified the credo of "I can't convince you that wrestling is real but I can convince you I'm for real" People can say Bret wasn't great at promos I'd argue that just because he didn't say he was Bret Hart and he's Awesome or ask you if you smelt what he was cookin' doesn't make him awful just makes him a normal everyday guy who never went over the top.
Tripleb2k1
Pre-Show Stalwart
his microphone work was better than most, his in-ring technical wrestling can stand the test of time even today
TheHitMark-SirJoseOle
A Fan Of Wrestling Not Backstage BS
Absolutely not! While maybe I may not totally agree with his placement on the Top 50 Superstars Of All Time list that WWE made. I only say this because I think that DVD does not represent a truly objective list but hell if I was in control of that list I might not have been so objective either. Anyway back to the matter I can't and won't deny my personal feeling of him as one of my favorite WWF superstars of all time. I feel that the era he was in was definitely not the best time in the WWF but in all fairness he was the reason why I still look back on that time with fondness and contentment. I know he's had his detractors come out like Ric Flair and I don't think the criticisms are necessarily fair to Bret Hart.
Again the WWF was in so much disarray with the emphasis being taken away from the bigger stars like Hogan, Warrior and Savage and to be honest I wish Bret Hart had been able to stick around during the second boom of the WWF to show how much of a benefit he was to the WWF in their post Hulkamania transition. Much in the way where I think Hulk Hogan sometimes gets overlooked for the times where he has worked a good match I think Bret's overlooked for his ability to emote.
Yes I will concede his strongest soon was the in ring work, there's no doubt about that but for those who think he had no personality I beg to differ. I mentioned this in another thread but I'll say it ONCE again watch WrestleMania X where Owen Hart got the better of him in the opening contest and the look of disappointment on his face when the little brother jumped out of his shadow. You could see it in his eyes that Bret sold the goods and just that one look did more justice than anything he could have said in a post-match interview and that I think is just as important at certain times than just cutting a promo.
Bret's look that night just said "I just wasn't good enough, what did I do wrong?". To me the greatest testament to Bret Hart's ability in the wrestling world was to be able to fool you into thinking you actually were watching a true battle. While the guys like Hogan and Savage who were great and I am not taking this away from them but their matches had the more colorful over the top theatrical flare to it.
Bret Hart though he sold his contests with a more grounded type of demeanor but yet still showed the performer in him through the way he sold the moves, the way he connected with the crowd and the way he would convey his emotions during a match. Yes sometimes his promos were not as wild and colorful like Rock, Savage, Hogan, Austin or Flair...but if you want my opinion I think he always got his point across.
So Bret Hart to me just doesn't come off as overrated, I might be a little biased here but I was a staunch WWF follower during his 1992-1997 World Title/Main Event run and this guy had big shoes to fill with guys like Warrior, Hogan, Flair and Savage no longer being in the WWF World Title scene and to be able to do that and be a mainstay for half a decade well I think that says a hell of a lot about Bret Hart's abilities.
Again the WWF was in so much disarray with the emphasis being taken away from the bigger stars like Hogan, Warrior and Savage and to be honest I wish Bret Hart had been able to stick around during the second boom of the WWF to show how much of a benefit he was to the WWF in their post Hulkamania transition. Much in the way where I think Hulk Hogan sometimes gets overlooked for the times where he has worked a good match I think Bret's overlooked for his ability to emote.
Yes I will concede his strongest soon was the in ring work, there's no doubt about that but for those who think he had no personality I beg to differ. I mentioned this in another thread but I'll say it ONCE again watch WrestleMania X where Owen Hart got the better of him in the opening contest and the look of disappointment on his face when the little brother jumped out of his shadow. You could see it in his eyes that Bret sold the goods and just that one look did more justice than anything he could have said in a post-match interview and that I think is just as important at certain times than just cutting a promo.
Bret's look that night just said "I just wasn't good enough, what did I do wrong?". To me the greatest testament to Bret Hart's ability in the wrestling world was to be able to fool you into thinking you actually were watching a true battle. While the guys like Hogan and Savage who were great and I am not taking this away from them but their matches had the more colorful over the top theatrical flare to it.
Bret Hart though he sold his contests with a more grounded type of demeanor but yet still showed the performer in him through the way he sold the moves, the way he connected with the crowd and the way he would convey his emotions during a match. Yes sometimes his promos were not as wild and colorful like Rock, Savage, Hogan, Austin or Flair...but if you want my opinion I think he always got his point across.
So Bret Hart to me just doesn't come off as overrated, I might be a little biased here but I was a staunch WWF follower during his 1992-1997 World Title/Main Event run and this guy had big shoes to fill with guys like Warrior, Hogan, Flair and Savage no longer being in the WWF World Title scene and to be able to do that and be a mainstay for half a decade well I think that says a hell of a lot about Bret Hart's abilities.
DeathClutch
HaRDcOrE ChAMpiOn
Anyone who states Bret is overated bought into the Hogan, Flair hype train and were blinded by Hogans bullshit.
I'm not going to ramble on, proof is in the pudding, watch any of Bret's summerslam matches (even 1995) Bret could work with anyone and make them look gold, Bret took a rough nugget in Austin at Survivor Series 1996 and actually made Austin look legit enough that WWE give Austin the 97 Rumble win to continue his feud with Bret. Watch King of the Ring 93 and watch Bret face 3 different guys with 3 different styles and have 3 classics, hell Bret made Owen look like a legit title contender in Mania 10-Slam 94, thou Owen was great his own way but Bret looked like he could of dropped the belt at Slam to Owen and that for a Champion takes so doing.
All in all people who tarnish Bret are simply ******ed and don't buy into the smaller guy possibly being world title material.
I'm not going to ramble on, proof is in the pudding, watch any of Bret's summerslam matches (even 1995) Bret could work with anyone and make them look gold, Bret took a rough nugget in Austin at Survivor Series 1996 and actually made Austin look legit enough that WWE give Austin the 97 Rumble win to continue his feud with Bret. Watch King of the Ring 93 and watch Bret face 3 different guys with 3 different styles and have 3 classics, hell Bret made Owen look like a legit title contender in Mania 10-Slam 94, thou Owen was great his own way but Bret looked like he could of dropped the belt at Slam to Owen and that for a Champion takes so doing.
All in all people who tarnish Bret are simply ******ed and don't buy into the smaller guy possibly being world title material.
Bret Hart could never be considered overrated...the man learned his skills from Stu Heart n the Dungeon. When he says he's "the best there was, the best there is and the best there ever will be" he's not talking about his mic skills, he talking about the fact that he could go toe to toe with ANYONE in that company, kick their ass n still make it a 5 star match. who else can make u believe that someone would really tap out to the sharpshooter? The Bret we see now is a man that gave the wrestling business 20 yrs of his life and then was in a accident that almost killed him and left him paralyzed for months. What else needs to be said?
I've watched a lot of wrestling in my time, and from a wrestling standpoint, nobody compares to Bret Hart. Like others have alluded to, Bret made it real. It's truly sad that his greatness is lost on so many. Growing up, Bret Hart made me believe that being the WWF Champion was the greatest accomplishment any man could achieve. I held him in a higher regard than all the other sports stars like Jordan, Magic, Gretzky, etc back when I was 6 years old. And I still do. The counters he would come up with were brilliant.
Bret Hart is easily one of the greatest wrestlers of all time. That can't be argued. However, one can make an argument about his being the overall best. I don't have a problem with Bret's ring work, microphone skills, or personality. He had all three is spades. I also never really considered him to be a small guy. He wasn't tall, but he was a hell of a lot bigger than guys like Benoit, Guererro, and CM Punk.
I like Bret, I just don't think he can be considered a major crossover success. (In America, Canada is a different story). Bret's amazing, but he didn't become the superstar Vince needed in the early 90's. He was never able to fill the void that Hogan left. To be fair, neither could HBK or Taker. Thats the only thing that knocks Bret down a peg in my book. He never became the mainstream cash cow like Hogan, Austin, Rock, and Cena.
Bret is certainly an all time great. He's in the top 95% of wrestlers in history. He belongs right there with Taker, HBK, Mick Foley, Randy Savage, Flair, and Triple H. However, he doesn't belong in the 99% with Hogan, Rock, Austin, and Cena. It certainly doesn't make him overrated, but it does keep him from being one of the truly elite names in wrestling history.
I like Bret, I just don't think he can be considered a major crossover success. (In America, Canada is a different story). Bret's amazing, but he didn't become the superstar Vince needed in the early 90's. He was never able to fill the void that Hogan left. To be fair, neither could HBK or Taker. Thats the only thing that knocks Bret down a peg in my book. He never became the mainstream cash cow like Hogan, Austin, Rock, and Cena.
Bret is certainly an all time great. He's in the top 95% of wrestlers in history. He belongs right there with Taker, HBK, Mick Foley, Randy Savage, Flair, and Triple H. However, he doesn't belong in the 99% with Hogan, Rock, Austin, and Cena. It certainly doesn't make him overrated, but it does keep him from being one of the truly elite names in wrestling history.
bigbootydaddyV
arrogant bastard
I disagree... Bret had some mainstream success... he would do the nightly talk shows, regis and kelly, and he was even a guest star on the Simpsons, the biggest show ever. I think he was on Madtv as well (the poor mans SNL but it was still on a major network)... He had a stint on some show that again wasn't huge but was on a major network. Bret had a pretty good amount of mainstream exposure considering he was on top at a time when the business was at its lowest. Definitely more than Shawn.
I think bret served his purpose in the 90s perfectly. He helped keep the business afloat during the steroids scandal. He had a huge amount of overseas success which helped as well. Bret may have been one of the hugest overseas stars of all time, including the guys you listed. I know in India, Germany, and South Africa he was and is HUGE. All of this is what wrestling needed in the 90s. Also, his role in helping usher in the Austin era cannot be overlooked. While it was the feud with McMahon that really set it off, without Bret, neither would have been in a position to make that angle what it was. I think Bret was a better asset than most in the 90s because he had that role model factor to him, he was someone the kids could look up to and the company could forward as a respectable role model.
justtxyank
Championship Contender
I think Bret is underrated and Tuffy's post proved it to me.
Bret Hart is not in the grouping with Mick Foley, he is in the group with Flair and Savage.
Bret Hart's legacy is diminished because of the era he got stuck main eventing in. Hogan was gone, the WWF tried the new generation and had a bunch of terrible gimmicks and bad wrestlers. Interest in wrestling itself wained, not just the WWF where Bret was. Had he stayed in the WWF after the Montreal incident he would have been part of the surge in the ratings war for the Federation.
Bret Hart is not in the grouping with Mick Foley, he is in the group with Flair and Savage.
Bret Hart's legacy is diminished because of the era he got stuck main eventing in. Hogan was gone, the WWF tried the new generation and had a bunch of terrible gimmicks and bad wrestlers. Interest in wrestling itself wained, not just the WWF where Bret was. Had he stayed in the WWF after the Montreal incident he would have been part of the surge in the ratings war for the Federation.
ECW Sandman
Getting Noticed By Management
Bret Hart IS NOT overrated, Hulk Hogan IS overrated Bret did everything he was asked he never bitched or complained about who he did or did not want to work with unlike that power hungry bastard Hulk Hogan, Hulk used his power and got in the ear of Vince McMahon in the WWF then Eric Bischoff and Vince Russo in WCW to keep his world title and to keep him a top drawl but Bret had to earn his way up to the ladder first winning the WWF Tag Team Belts with The Anvil then moving on to a singles career Hulk Hogan NEVER held the IC Title it was always the WWF Title sure he finally won his 1st tag title with Edge in the 2000's but in the 80's and 90's he only held the WWF Title Bret had to wait til that no good son of bitch left the WWF to capture his first WWF title, I know I will get a lot of heat from this but the people who say Bret is overrated you all must be Hogan Marks Hogan SUCKED Bret is and will for ever be A hell of a lot better then Hulk Hogan will ever be IMO .
ONE PERIOD! I can't wait to see how great your posts are when you learn to write. Shit like this is so embarrassing its pathetic. Bret never bitched or complained huh? I'm gonna assume your not counting the fact that the Screwjob only happened because he flat out told Vince he wouldn't drop the title to Shawn. Holy shit I don't even really want to read your post because it's so goddamned stupid. I'm just gonna hit some points:
-Your mad that Hogan never had to be IC champ: Why exactly would you put the biggest moneymaker in wrestling history in the mid card?
-Hogan was only a success because he got in Vince's ear: You are aware of the fact that Vince brought Hogan to the WWE and had him beat the Iron Sheik when he was a nobody don't you? I supposed Hogan also tricked all those people into buying millions of dollars worth of tickets and merchandise. I guess you think he also tricked all those network TV execs into putting him on prime time shows.
-You claim Bret had to work his way up before getting the title: This is true. As it is for 99% of main eventers jackass. Do you forget that Hogan worked in the WWE for about 3 years as a heel getting his ass kicked by Andre every night. More importantly, are you implying that Bret Hart was ready to be world champion in 1986? If you are, then you have some serious issues. I suppose you think Shawn Michaels should have won the title in 88 also.
-Bret had to wait for that "son of a bitch" to leave before he got the title: He sure did. Bret got the belt as soon as Hogan wasn't on top. All he had to do was wait for Warrior, Slaughter, Taker, Savage, and Flair to get through with it first. More importantly, you do realize that HOGAN WAS WORKING FOR THE WWE WHILE BRET WAS CHAMPION.
Your post is a joke and so are you. More importantly, your dumb ass took a thread about Bret Hart and tried to completely ramrod it into what you wanted to bitch about.
justtxyank
Championship Contender
This is sort of a misleading way to describe what happened. Bret had creative control (given to him by Vince) for the final 30 days of his contract should he leave (which Vince asked him to do to save money) and Bret exercised it, not to refuse to job to Shawn, but to refuse to do it in Canada. That was his right based on the contract Vince created.
Agree. Why would they have made Hogan go get the IC strap. I'll further address this after your next point...
You actually undersell Hogan here. He WASN'T a nobody. He was a huge star for the AWA, constantly in the WORLD title picture, only falling short by "screwjob" finishes. When he was poached finally to go to the WWF it wasn't so Vince could have him start at the bottom and work his way up. He was poaching a star on the precipice. People who say Hogan was only a star because of Vince or whatever completely fail to understand what happened in the 1980s. Go watch tapes of Hogan in the AWA and listen to the crowds behind him. Go watch him in Japan before Hulkamania and listen to the crowds. Hogan had "it" from day one. It wasn't artificial or contrived. He is the single brightest star the business has ever seen. Backing up your last point, why put this man in the IC title picture when you can make more money with him in the world?
I will be the first replier to the OP that's willing to take the other side...
Yes. Bret Hart is overrated. Not egregiously so, but he is. The biggest issue I have with Bret Hart is that he actually believes his tagline of being the best there was, the best there is, and the best there ever will be. First, having such a motto is INCREDIBLY narcissistic, vain-glorious, even. When you call yourself the best ever, you better damn well be.
First: just because he was trained in the dungeon doesn't mean jack shit. So did Bruce and Keith Hart. Are they two of the best wrestlers ever? Fuck no. There have been some good wrestlers who came out of the dungeon, but there have also been some bad ones. Being a graduate of the dungeon doesn't make you anything.
Bret Hart is not the best technical wrestler ever. This wouldn't be a problem if all of his fans didn't claim he was, but they do, and he is not. He is a good technical wrestler. But he didn't do anything that Ricky Steamboat, Randy Savage, Chris Benoit, Chris Jericho, Dean Malenko, Kurt Angle and some other guys didn't do. He isn't any better than any of those guys, but listening to him and his fans, you would think he invented wrestling.
His mic work was mediocre. Why people insist he was good on the mic, I have no idea. He stumbled words, said the wrong words, spoke in a way like he didn't know where he was going (ie, it didn't really flow well together), and delivered same speech every time. blahblah Canada, blahblah grew up in dungeon, blahblah respect, blahblah best there was, blahblah Champion. There. That is every Bret Hart promo ever.
If we are using a grade scale, Bret Hart is a B+ to A- wrestler who thinks he deserves an A+ for being pretty good. Bret Hart did not suck as a wrestler, that is not what I am saying. What I am saying is that through a lot of hype, the legend of Bret Hart far exceeds the reality. He was very good. But he was not nearly as great as both he and his fans claim. So, yes. Overrated.
Yes. Bret Hart is overrated. Not egregiously so, but he is. The biggest issue I have with Bret Hart is that he actually believes his tagline of being the best there was, the best there is, and the best there ever will be. First, having such a motto is INCREDIBLY narcissistic, vain-glorious, even. When you call yourself the best ever, you better damn well be.
First: just because he was trained in the dungeon doesn't mean jack shit. So did Bruce and Keith Hart. Are they two of the best wrestlers ever? Fuck no. There have been some good wrestlers who came out of the dungeon, but there have also been some bad ones. Being a graduate of the dungeon doesn't make you anything.
Bret Hart is not the best technical wrestler ever. This wouldn't be a problem if all of his fans didn't claim he was, but they do, and he is not. He is a good technical wrestler. But he didn't do anything that Ricky Steamboat, Randy Savage, Chris Benoit, Chris Jericho, Dean Malenko, Kurt Angle and some other guys didn't do. He isn't any better than any of those guys, but listening to him and his fans, you would think he invented wrestling.
His mic work was mediocre. Why people insist he was good on the mic, I have no idea. He stumbled words, said the wrong words, spoke in a way like he didn't know where he was going (ie, it didn't really flow well together), and delivered same speech every time. blahblah Canada, blahblah grew up in dungeon, blahblah respect, blahblah best there was, blahblah Champion. There. That is every Bret Hart promo ever.
If we are using a grade scale, Bret Hart is a B+ to A- wrestler who thinks he deserves an A+ for being pretty good. Bret Hart did not suck as a wrestler, that is not what I am saying. What I am saying is that through a lot of hype, the legend of Bret Hart far exceeds the reality. He was very good. But he was not nearly as great as both he and his fans claim. So, yes. Overrated.
TheHitMark-SirJoseOle
A Fan Of Wrestling Not Backstage BS
Alright, the kid gloves are off right now. Most posters I give the benefit of the doubt and don't jump down the throats of. However, you deserve a royal reaming you stupid ass troll. And because of your user name I can't WAIT to put this back in your face.
First off, you have no true grasp of who said what or who did what backstage in regards to how the wrestling business truly is ran. Don't let the internet or those glorified kayfabe pieces like autobiography tell-alls, shoot interviews and DVD retrospectives be your source. That's no different than using Wikipedia to write a term paper. As entertaining as those books are to read and those DVDs are to watch, I still doubt any of them being 100 percent legitimate pieces, period.
First of all, I am sure the word you meant to use was draw, not drawl. Drawl means the following:
The Dictionary said:A drawl is a perceived feature of some varieties of spoken English, and generally indicates longer vowel sounds and/or diphthongs. Varieties of English which are said to feature pronounced drawls include Southern American English, Californian English and Australian English, especially Broad Australian English.
The Southern Drawl, or the diphthongization or triphthongization of the traditional short front vowels as in the words pat, pet, and pit: these develop a glide up from their original starting position to [j] and, in some cases, back down to schwa.
/æ/ → [æj(ə]
/ɛ/ → [ɛj(ə
/ɪ/ → [ɪj(ə
Judging from your word choices and the argument you stand on, you must have a special drawl of your own. I assume its one that only you can truly understand when you decide to talk out of your ass with unfounded points.
Whether you realize it or not Hulk Hogan spent a good seven years paying his dues in the wrestling business. In that time, he had a couple of regional title reigns for Southeastern Championship Wrestling and mind you he had several shots at the WWF World Title as a heel in his first WWF run, I must add he came up short every time in those efforts. Not to mention like TUFFY54 said he did get his ass handed to him by Andre The Giant very often. He also plied his wrestling skills in Japan and earned the respect and esteem of that crowd, something I doubt your troll ass could appreciate. After all if you appreciate traditional and pure wrestling so much what the hell are you doing with the handle ECW Sandman? Ill get back to that later, believe me.
Also lets not forget that Hogan also came up short in his quest to win the AWA World Title but he connected with the crowd so much that he was the choice of the people to be the new World Champion for that promotion. I dont know the whole circumstances outside of what the tell-alls say in regards to Verne Gagne and Hogans relationship behind the scenes. But thats another story for another day. However, I can believe enough to know that obviously Vince knew if he brought Hogan back to his version of the WWF that he now owned instead of his father that he could do what the AWA seemed unwilling to do.
And believe me Im confident enough to say that it was a team effort with Vince and Hogan if what they say about Vinces convictions and judgment are true I doubt seriously that Vince would just let Hogan dictate policy in the WWF so easily. Vince was obviously willing to go along with the ride as well because he knew there was something about Hogan that separated him from every other wrestler in the industry. So it only made sense for Vince to push this guy for as long as he could.
Same held true for Hogans jump to WCW, he still had something to offer wrestling, so why not take advantage of what you can with your star power? And by the way that word you meant to use draw, you cant force yourself to be a top draw, its either the people want to pay to see you or they dont and for a few good solid years the people in WCW still paid to see Hogan. Sure he could flex his creative control to make himself a champion if he wants to but if the people arent paying to see him then hes not making himself a top draw? The ticket buyers are the ones who determine who the draws are dumbass.
But in retrospect WCWs ratings were still solid even when they were losing ground to the WWF no matter what all the internet armchair experts want to say. So even when Hogans momentum after the nWo was waning a bit he was still one of the top names whether you like it or not. As far as the Vince Russo factor goes and again this is where Hogans part in everything related to WCWs downfall is overrated, if what they say about Hogans creative control is true then why the hell did Vince Russo and David Arquette ever get to win the WCW World Titles?
Hogan in your deluded words being the power hungry son of a bitch he was and Im not saying he wasnt ever eager to want to be champion because he sure did win the title a lot in WCW. But he was still with WCW during both those reigns (even though he was off TV for Russos win) I am sure he could have stopped that fro happening if what the so called internet wrestling experts like yourself say is true about how much policy Hogan got to dictate.
Ok, now like I said earlier Hogan had a couple of regional title reigns on his resume and was making a name for himself all over the United States and in Japan as a wrestler. So youre going to seriously tell me that it was an injustice that after working with solid hands like Gorilla Monsoon, Andre The Giant, Bob Backlund, Nick Bockwinkel, Blackjack Mulligan and Antonio Inoki that he would become WWF World Champion after working with those legends who from that list are all in some shape or form Pro Wrestling Hall Of Famers? Are you fn serious? Yes we know Bret had to earn his way up the ladder but keep this in mind Bret also had to fight the accusations of nepotism in his training ground of Stampede Wrestling.
Did it ever occur to you that maybe just maybe Vince really had to test Bret to see how reliable a hand he would be in the WWF and not just someone that was being protected and overpromoted by his father. Thats not an affront to Bret or Stu, but its something to keep in mind when we consider the fact that the majority of Brets career up to that point was in Stampede Wrestling. To my knowledge Hulk Hogan never had a a familial connection to the wrestling business. Thats not to say Bret Hart wasnt great after all hes one of my favorites up there with Hulk Hogan but lets be honest being born into the business gives you a leg up, granted Bret still proved himself and in the end is still one of the greatest but dont sit on your self-righteous ass and feed me this crock about your anti-Hogan spiel.
I am really not going to delve into the background story of how Hogan got into the business but from the stories I hear it wasnt a pleasant experience. Again it could be hype to build up the character but in the mystique laden era of yesteryear in wrestling you just never know whats reality and whats fiction. To an extent with the internet we still sort of have that difficulty of separating reality from fiction but its a much more ambiguous sort of thing now in my view. Anyway, if those stories about Hogan paying his dues are true, Id like to see how some internet troll like yourself would fare...its all about the timing man. Had Hogan arrived later into the wrestling business he probably would have gone on the same career track as a guy like Bret having to earn his stripes through the lower title divisions. Also, these days you see guys going straight for the World Title (i.e. Sheamus and years prior Brock Lesnar did it) and those guys put in less time in the actual pro wrestling business by comparison to Hogan.
What a stupid ass you are proving to be with every line you type. Yes Hogan went and took his hiatus from WWF and Bret took the best of an opportunity to win the World Title but do keep in mind there was no rush on this happening considering that Ric Flair and Randy Savage were feuding for it prior to Bret winning. If Bret was such a high priority to make champion right away then he would have beaten Savage and not Flair. Its one thing to not like Hulk Hogan but now you are just reaching for more ways to just hate him without any true justification. So no you are not getting heat because of your dislike for Hogan thats fine, we understand you dont like someone but if you want to have a valid argument on this forum then you better be prepared to actually know how to back it up.
You clearly dont have a strong argument though, you are acting the way you are because you HATE Hulk Hogan blindly. That you deserve heat for. I would say the same thing to you in regards to any other professional wrestler, period. For instance I have told people time and again I was never a fan of Bob Backlund period, however I have always respected his place in wrestling history and whether I liked it or not he was a top draw for several years. To a vast majority at that time in wrestling, he was a guy worthy of holding that title because of the impact he had on the fans. Would I have rather seen someone like Pedro Morales or Bruno Sammartino win the strap back from Billy Graham, yes to be honest, I would. However, Backlund got it because he was Vince Sr.s choice and the crowd agreed with it, much like Hogan was Vince Jr.s choice and yes the crowd agreed with that too.
But again this is all coming from a user named ECW Sandman, if you want to talk about someone who in the ring was completely ridiculous it was The Sandman. I saw that guy once at an indy show in upstate New York for this fed called 2CW. He came in and within two minutes they had to rush the match to an abrupt end because he was too inebriated to continue wrestling. Say what you want about Hulk Hogan but I never remember him pulling a stunt like that in his career. Whether you liked Hogan or not, when he was scheduled to be on the show, he was at least in the right frame of mind to go out there and do his thing.
So yes in the end, I am maintaining a strong stance on my feelings towards both Hulk Hogan and Bret Hart, they are both two of my favorite wrestlers and I like them both for different reasons. I will gladly stand strong on my stance in regards to both of their impacts in wrestling and their status as legends. In regards to Bret Hart I had said similar things to another user on this thread who thought the same way about Bret Hart that you thought about Hulk Hogan. Ive done it before and I will do it again, especially when I read tripe like you have just posted. God, youre a complete moron and yes I am going to insult you because you deserve the heat you might get for your opinion. Personally I dont feel you can have a honest to goodness debate with anyone on here, therefore you just need to be derided.
The Future Rises
Thinking Of A New Name..
Bret Hart overrated because he couldn't work the mic good? Please. Bret had natural charisma. Everytime he came out he got a big ovation. That's the main thing you need. If you get yourself over with the crowd you're in the right direction. Not only that but Bret was one hell of a wrestler. His "pink and black" look was very original and the sunglasses were a very good touch Bret definitely had a good look in my opinion. It's just like what Triple H said last Monday night on Raw. It's all about getting over. And Bret was VERY over. His charisma was uncanny and the best part was that he got all the crowd reaction without having to cut a mean promo every week. Like I said Bret had natural charisma and great in ring talent. The main reason for a wrestler to try having good mic skills is for him to be appealing and get over with the crowd. Bret did it without the mic work part. His character was so appealing to all the fans back then and he was great in the ring. He's definitely not overrated in my opinion. Hell he was underrated if anything. I hate how it all went down for him back in 1997 when Vince had nothing for his character and it all ended with the Montreal screwjob. I truly feel that Bret he deserved a longer, greater, and more memorable run with the WWE/F. Not taking anything away from his run but it definitely should have ended much, much better.
I would say that Bret Hart is neither over-rated or under-rated, I'd say he's one of the few that is properly rated. He's not the best ever, but he's right there. I'd say he might even be able to get to that point still if he'd just become an on-screen manager.
Hogan, Savage, Rock, Austin, Andre... that might be all I can think of that I would say are definitely better than the Hitman. Another way of putting it is that I can count on one hand the guys that are better than Bret Hart.
I think the people that yapyapyap about how charismatic & great he was on the mic are over-rating The Hitman. Back in the early 90's the guys on the brink of superstardom and the brink of becoming the faces of the company were Bret Hart, the first to realize that dream, HBK, who did it a few years later, and the man who would have been first, and then again second after Bret Hart, had he not injured his lower back, and that was Curt Hennig. When you compare these 3 stars to each other, Bret Hart was noticeably worse than the other two on the mic. Hart & Hennig & Shawn were all basically a tied on mat skills. Hart & Hennig were mat technicians with no other equals (in their prime at the same time as they were) and Shawn was more of a Savage type wrestler, a very strong mat technician but his specialty lay in high flying moves to which there was no equal to him (in their prime at the same time as he was).
Hennig, not Hitman was the man chasing Hogan. We all know that Hogan & Hitman have little respect for each other, and it's well documented that Bret Hart always fancied himself as a true successor to Hogan, and he was right. But Hogan, even as far back as his days in the AWA had Curt Hennig on his tail succeeding every move that Hogan made. It's part of the reason that Hogan chose not to drop the WWF title to Perfect even earlier than was originally slated. Ultimately, all 3 had to wait until Hogan was no longer in the title scene before they were given a chance. Perfect was taken out of the race because of his injury, so Hitman was the first to get it, then Perfect was scheduled to get it again and then got injured again, closing forever his chances to be a world title holder and face of the company.
In comes HBK who had been waiting in the wings. HBK was far more charismatic that Bret Hart, and arguably even more so than Perfect. He was certainly the flashiest wrestler in the ring since Randy Savage. The problem was that when it came right down to it Bret Hart screwed Bret Hart by agreeing to turn heel. After his relevance as a heel was played out no one really knew how to use Hart again, and that's why Vince wanted Bret gone.
It's a credit to Hart that he made it as far as he did. With all the crap he was involved in, it's really speaks volumes to his in-ring ability and presence that he's not much lower on the list. Even so, I would easily say that he's better than Flair, HBK, HHH, Taker, Cena, and unfortunately even Perfect. (I still say Perfect would be the best of the 3 if he had stayed healthy)
Hogan, Savage, Rock, Austin, Andre... that might be all I can think of that I would say are definitely better than the Hitman. Another way of putting it is that I can count on one hand the guys that are better than Bret Hart.
I think the people that yapyapyap about how charismatic & great he was on the mic are over-rating The Hitman. Back in the early 90's the guys on the brink of superstardom and the brink of becoming the faces of the company were Bret Hart, the first to realize that dream, HBK, who did it a few years later, and the man who would have been first, and then again second after Bret Hart, had he not injured his lower back, and that was Curt Hennig. When you compare these 3 stars to each other, Bret Hart was noticeably worse than the other two on the mic. Hart & Hennig & Shawn were all basically a tied on mat skills. Hart & Hennig were mat technicians with no other equals (in their prime at the same time as they were) and Shawn was more of a Savage type wrestler, a very strong mat technician but his specialty lay in high flying moves to which there was no equal to him (in their prime at the same time as he was).
Hennig, not Hitman was the man chasing Hogan. We all know that Hogan & Hitman have little respect for each other, and it's well documented that Bret Hart always fancied himself as a true successor to Hogan, and he was right. But Hogan, even as far back as his days in the AWA had Curt Hennig on his tail succeeding every move that Hogan made. It's part of the reason that Hogan chose not to drop the WWF title to Perfect even earlier than was originally slated. Ultimately, all 3 had to wait until Hogan was no longer in the title scene before they were given a chance. Perfect was taken out of the race because of his injury, so Hitman was the first to get it, then Perfect was scheduled to get it again and then got injured again, closing forever his chances to be a world title holder and face of the company.
In comes HBK who had been waiting in the wings. HBK was far more charismatic that Bret Hart, and arguably even more so than Perfect. He was certainly the flashiest wrestler in the ring since Randy Savage. The problem was that when it came right down to it Bret Hart screwed Bret Hart by agreeing to turn heel. After his relevance as a heel was played out no one really knew how to use Hart again, and that's why Vince wanted Bret gone.
It's a credit to Hart that he made it as far as he did. With all the crap he was involved in, it's really speaks volumes to his in-ring ability and presence that he's not much lower on the list. Even so, I would easily say that he's better than Flair, HBK, HHH, Taker, Cena, and unfortunately even Perfect. (I still say Perfect would be the best of the 3 if he had stayed healthy)
I don't think Bret is overrated.
He wasn't charismatic on the mic, but that's part of what made his character what it was. When he gave a promo he simply stated what he was going to do then did it. He didn't get over the top and scream into the camera or make jokes. Bret was always very serious and focused looking, and that what made his gimmick (world's best wrestler) work.
People criticize the five moves of doom, but Bret Hart had a countless number of great matches.
Hart vs British Bulldog
Hart vs Shawn (iron man)
Hart vs Deisel
Hart vs Owen
Hart vs Steve Austin
Etc.
Bret Hart is a legend and rightfully so.
He wasn't charismatic on the mic, but that's part of what made his character what it was. When he gave a promo he simply stated what he was going to do then did it. He didn't get over the top and scream into the camera or make jokes. Bret was always very serious and focused looking, and that what made his gimmick (world's best wrestler) work.
People criticize the five moves of doom, but Bret Hart had a countless number of great matches.
Hart vs British Bulldog
Hart vs Shawn (iron man)
Hart vs Deisel
Hart vs Owen
Hart vs Steve Austin
Etc.
Bret Hart is a legend and rightfully so.
Hollywood Naitch
The current reigning and defending
So what if Bret Hart's mic skills were not as good as The Rock's or Hogan's? They didn't need to be. While not being amazing (par his period as an anti-American heel when they were brilliant), Bret Hart was easily strong enough on the mic to sell his feuds, get his point across and say what needed to be said.
However, it was his in-ring work that made him into a legend, and that is because he was simply that damm good. One of the best technical wrestlers of all time, Bret worked for everything he got, and he got there because he was good. End of. He wasn't pushed because he was Stu Hart's son, it was Bret's skills and ability that took him to the WWF title.
He was able to work a great match with almost anyone, regardless of their size, style or ability and he could sell better than almost anyone. The proof of how good he was can be seen in his classic match with Davey Boy Smith at Summerslam 1992. It was a classic, and Bret carried it as Davey had no idea what was going on and forgot the spots- due to Smith being up all night doing crack. To make the match as good as it was shows Bret's incredible ability.
He was the peoples champion for years, he got more fan mail than Hogan and people wanted to see him. And you know why they wanted to see him? Because he was that damm good.
Personally I would place Michaels and Angle above Bret, but he is definitely in the top 3 wrestlers I have had the pleasure of watching in their primes.
However, it was his in-ring work that made him into a legend, and that is because he was simply that damm good. One of the best technical wrestlers of all time, Bret worked for everything he got, and he got there because he was good. End of. He wasn't pushed because he was Stu Hart's son, it was Bret's skills and ability that took him to the WWF title.
He was able to work a great match with almost anyone, regardless of their size, style or ability and he could sell better than almost anyone. The proof of how good he was can be seen in his classic match with Davey Boy Smith at Summerslam 1992. It was a classic, and Bret carried it as Davey had no idea what was going on and forgot the spots- due to Smith being up all night doing crack. To make the match as good as it was shows Bret's incredible ability.
He was the peoples champion for years, he got more fan mail than Hogan and people wanted to see him. And you know why they wanted to see him? Because he was that damm good.
Personally I would place Michaels and Angle above Bret, but he is definitely in the top 3 wrestlers I have had the pleasure of watching in their primes.
Depends on who you ask doesnt it? Ric Flair thinks that Hart's shit, I am no Ric Flair but I do think Flair's shit, like not really, really shit, but shit.
I cant see why people can call Bret's mic work crap and then praise Shawn Michaels, I honestly think that HBK's mic work has always been as shit as it was during his last few years, sure he had the occasional funny line, but thats a guy who's promos I just couldnt get into, usually resorting to the tried and tested HHH method of putting on a stupid "witty" voice and making inside jokes. I think Bret's mic work was good enough that you could hand him a mic to sell a match and not have to worry about the outcome.
In the ring, well if I've learned one thing its that I am not really one to judge, but to me he was awesome, on the other hand I like Ultimate Warrior matches so take that for what you will. Still, if I am bored and I watch wrasslin on Youtube I'll often watch Hart matches, certainly over Ric Flair or Shawn Michaels matches.
Do I think Bret Hart's overrated? I am not sure I pay enough attention to other peoples opinions to truly know.
I cant see why people can call Bret's mic work crap and then praise Shawn Michaels, I honestly think that HBK's mic work has always been as shit as it was during his last few years, sure he had the occasional funny line, but thats a guy who's promos I just couldnt get into, usually resorting to the tried and tested HHH method of putting on a stupid "witty" voice and making inside jokes. I think Bret's mic work was good enough that you could hand him a mic to sell a match and not have to worry about the outcome.
In the ring, well if I've learned one thing its that I am not really one to judge, but to me he was awesome, on the other hand I like Ultimate Warrior matches so take that for what you will. Still, if I am bored and I watch wrasslin on Youtube I'll often watch Hart matches, certainly over Ric Flair or Shawn Michaels matches.
Do I think Bret Hart's overrated? I am not sure I pay enough attention to other peoples opinions to truly know.
FlairFan2003
Mid-Card Championship Winner
Being a great in ring performer does not make you a great pro wrestler, you have to have charisma, be able to engage an audience, and definately be good on the mic. Bottom line, it's the interviews on TV that make people pay money to see you wrestle. One of the greatest bouts I ever saw Hart wrestle was in 1998 vs Van Hammer. No one cared and the ratings tanked because they had no fued, Hammer wasn't a legit star, sure the physical match was entertaining, but fans tuned out in droves during their 45 minute match.
Brett was never a great mic guy, he was above average, playing one character. He was certainly better than say Chris Benoit, an excellent in ring performer who was very limited on the stick.
In the ring yes he was very good. I don't know how true some criticisms of his ring work, particularly that he was very inflexible RE: changing things, are true. As far as his move set, every guy has signature moves, the crowds mark out crazy for them, they tell you what point in a match you are. HHH has them, Taker has them, Savage had them, Flair had them, Austin had them. Some have more than others, all the top guys have them. Hart was very athletic, well conditioned, he understood pacing in a match to keep longer bouts from being boring, he could sell other's offense very well.
Some of the criticism of him "not being a big draw" is unfair because the industry in general was in a down time, and by anyone's accounts the booking in WWE 1993-96 left a lot to be desired. Vince had his legal problems, etc and they distracted him from the product. WCW never knew how to use Hart, they wanted him to be a fan favorite but they immediately put him in a program with Flair that got him jeered and booed. They never matched him against Hogan or Sting, was he NWO, WCW, a lone wolf, from week to week you never knew. Just like they killed Goldberg, wasted Sting, overutilized the NWO and undervalued Flair, WCW booking screwed up with Hart. Bottom line, no mater how good you are, your ability to draw relies in part on the programs you work and the opponents you face.
Hart has drawn criticism for refusing to job being too protective of his spot. Regardless of how true that was, I can understand if Hart was sensitive to putting over people like HBK, who had a genuine bad rep for refusing to put over anyone. Business is brutal, and anyone who has a beef with Brett RE: his unwillingness to share the spotlight should review Hulk Hogan's career.
For me, I think Hart did a very good job carrying the company during a tough transition period, and the WM's and SummerSlams he main evented all made good money. I do think HBK and HHH are better because they can match him in the ring and far exceed him on the mic, same thing for Flair and Savage in their prime. No doubt he never drew like Hogan or Austin, but he could draw well, and again how much of that was his lackluster personality and how much was lousy booking.
Would I put him with the all time legends ? No, would I put him close, yes. Honestly, other than Taker and HHH, how many guys today do you think will rival his contribution and ability, maybe Cena.... it's tough.
Brett was never a great mic guy, he was above average, playing one character. He was certainly better than say Chris Benoit, an excellent in ring performer who was very limited on the stick.
In the ring yes he was very good. I don't know how true some criticisms of his ring work, particularly that he was very inflexible RE: changing things, are true. As far as his move set, every guy has signature moves, the crowds mark out crazy for them, they tell you what point in a match you are. HHH has them, Taker has them, Savage had them, Flair had them, Austin had them. Some have more than others, all the top guys have them. Hart was very athletic, well conditioned, he understood pacing in a match to keep longer bouts from being boring, he could sell other's offense very well.
Some of the criticism of him "not being a big draw" is unfair because the industry in general was in a down time, and by anyone's accounts the booking in WWE 1993-96 left a lot to be desired. Vince had his legal problems, etc and they distracted him from the product. WCW never knew how to use Hart, they wanted him to be a fan favorite but they immediately put him in a program with Flair that got him jeered and booed. They never matched him against Hogan or Sting, was he NWO, WCW, a lone wolf, from week to week you never knew. Just like they killed Goldberg, wasted Sting, overutilized the NWO and undervalued Flair, WCW booking screwed up with Hart. Bottom line, no mater how good you are, your ability to draw relies in part on the programs you work and the opponents you face.
Hart has drawn criticism for refusing to job being too protective of his spot. Regardless of how true that was, I can understand if Hart was sensitive to putting over people like HBK, who had a genuine bad rep for refusing to put over anyone. Business is brutal, and anyone who has a beef with Brett RE: his unwillingness to share the spotlight should review Hulk Hogan's career.
For me, I think Hart did a very good job carrying the company during a tough transition period, and the WM's and SummerSlams he main evented all made good money. I do think HBK and HHH are better because they can match him in the ring and far exceed him on the mic, same thing for Flair and Savage in their prime. No doubt he never drew like Hogan or Austin, but he could draw well, and again how much of that was his lackluster personality and how much was lousy booking.
Would I put him with the all time legends ? No, would I put him close, yes. Honestly, other than Taker and HHH, how many guys today do you think will rival his contribution and ability, maybe Cena.... it's tough.
FlairFan2003
Mid-Card Championship Winner
One thing I will say reading some of these other posts, many of you have little memory of wrestling pre 1995.
Second, I wouldn't criticize Hart because he "fell into" his spot. A lot of guys fell into their spot, Hart took the ball and ran with it. Hogan definately benefited from Vince's promotional genius at the time, but he was already drawing huge responses from crowds in AWA before he returned to WWE, he had charisma, had mic work, his in ring skills may not have been great but they were better than he gets credit for.
Everyone has opinions but its not fair to blame a guy for being in the right place at the right time. When teeny bopper tag teams went out of vogue Ricky Morton and Robert Gibson, the Rock & Roll Express, the much more popular ans sucessful tag team that The Rockers were based upon, largely disappeared. When the Rockers split Marty Jannety disappeared, HBK took his opportunity and mined gold.
Still, having watched Brett since the mid 80's, and watching Hogan and Flair in their prime, as well as Austin and Rock, I would say Hart was good, was a good champion, but I'll take HBK because he was more entertaining as a whole. Hart's rawing power was not equal to Hogan or Flair in the 80's or Austin in the 90's but the company was making money with him, otherwise they wouldn't have kept going back, kinda like Cena today.
Second, I wouldn't criticize Hart because he "fell into" his spot. A lot of guys fell into their spot, Hart took the ball and ran with it. Hogan definately benefited from Vince's promotional genius at the time, but he was already drawing huge responses from crowds in AWA before he returned to WWE, he had charisma, had mic work, his in ring skills may not have been great but they were better than he gets credit for.
Everyone has opinions but its not fair to blame a guy for being in the right place at the right time. When teeny bopper tag teams went out of vogue Ricky Morton and Robert Gibson, the Rock & Roll Express, the much more popular ans sucessful tag team that The Rockers were based upon, largely disappeared. When the Rockers split Marty Jannety disappeared, HBK took his opportunity and mined gold.
Still, having watched Brett since the mid 80's, and watching Hogan and Flair in their prime, as well as Austin and Rock, I would say Hart was good, was a good champion, but I'll take HBK because he was more entertaining as a whole. Hart's rawing power was not equal to Hogan or Flair in the 80's or Austin in the 90's but the company was making money with him, otherwise they wouldn't have kept going back, kinda like Cena today.
- Status