There's a specific side of this argument that I fall on, and I expect to take some flack for it. But first, let me explain.
C'mon. Flack? You?
One of the things most people here dont know about me is that I was adopted.
Well damn.
I
dont know my birth parents, and I dont care too. Im quite satisfied with the fact that I got two wonderful parents who raised me right. Despite that, there were some behaviors I displayed as a kid, idiosyncocies if you will, that they couldn't control.
Well I've studied psychology as well (2nd year student) and I have to agree with you that some things are just genetic. Now, I don't know what behaviour it was and if it was genetic or not (if it was rebellious, then maybe its a normal teenager thing) .
No amount of reinforcement, be it positive or negative, could change that. It frustrated my parents greatly, and me as well. Over time, I outgrew these behaviors, became a normal teenager, and Im a normal adult(for the most part
).
Ah yes...growing up.
On the surface, there appears to be no clear cut answer whatsoever.
Maybe but does one consider it to be both? I mean whatever you learnt from your parents you did, but those "idiosyncrasies" remained. Now, I'd be more inclined to agree with you if they never left regardless of growing up or being a teenager: Then it'd definitely be a nature thing.
As a psychologist, Ive worked with all types. Ive worked with the sociopath who was raised in a Christian family and taught proper morals and values from the day he was born. Hell, he may even be able to recite the Ten Commandments for you.
But he'ld just as soon break all ten of them faster then he'ld recite them. No matter the work and effort his parents put in, he became a menace to society. Why? Because he was born that way.
I gotta disagree with you on that. He was born a sociopath? That doesn't sound right. There's a difference between simply being a sociopath and understanding the rules and not giving a shit.
I'd say that he had a genetic makeup for violence or deviance that is past normal. I think nurture hit the trigger. Weather it was domestic abuse or repression of expression due to strong Christian beliefs, the trigger is nurture. For example, I reject all ethical notions. All of them. I simply see a blurred line and that is all I see. If someone kills someone else, I know its wrong --but here's the thing, I simply do not care about right or wrong. It doesn't faze me one bit. Ever since I was a kid--by that I mean ever since I begun to think--I always questioned moral values. I remember I got suspended because I once told a teacher that she couldn't possibly convince me what is right or wrong
I guess, by nature, I might be called a sociopath.
But then again, I also got a couple friends, I got to a nice university and tap some nice ass
My parents told me never to do drugs, never to harm people and I follow that...to an extent (alcohol, weed and some cigs from time to time). Nurture taught me to take that possible serial killer personality of mine and apply it somewhere else--express is constructively and I have--kicking asses in political debates.
Then you have other kids who are raised to follow certain rules, guidelines, and codes as well. The problem is, the "code" they were raised with was to lie, cheat, steal, and take shortcuts through every situation. While some of them do, others do not. Why is that? That's all they know, after all. From aa young age, that's what they've witnessed their parents doing. But yet, they choose to turn away from those behaviors, and act in a more pro-social way. Why? Because they just weren't born to be liars, cheaters, and thiefs.
But you're still assuming they're all born as Liars and Thiefs. In effect, you're saying that every single infant who hasn't learnt to swallow food has determined his personality due to his genetics. One is going to be the president and another is gonna become Bin Laden. When Bin Laden was a baby he had a marginal chance to become a religious nut and a contemplative genius who blew up two buildings. Same with 'Bama. What if 'Bama joined the Black Panthers? What if Bin Laden kept serving with the CIA after the 80's (yes, he worked for the CIA at one point). Obama and Bin Laden have both different minds, and both had a marginal increase in the path that they were going to follow, but only marginal. Nurture pulled the trigger.
While there is no clear-cut answer to this question, I do fall heavy onto the nature side of things. I do believe we were born with a certain set of characteristics that predisposition is to behave in a certain way, irregardless of what we've been taught growing up. Does that mean that these people will always act on these things? Some will, for sure. But I wouldn't be in the field Im in if I didn't believe that there are some who can choose to overcome their natural characteristics and choose a better way. I don't believe that it's difficult for people to change because they learned a certain behavior their entire life, I believe its difficult for people to change because of who they are, how they were born. Yes, parents will mold, shape, and guide their children from a young age, but in the end, they are who they are. The way a child is raised can influence some of the things they do, absolutely, without a doubt.
I agree with that, but only to an extent. No one makes us, we follow our own path. We choose who to look up to and who not to. My dad's a doctor and I'm becoming a lawyer (perhaps even a journalist). I'm breaking tradition. Genetically, I'd have a marginal advantage in mathematics and science but I didn't. I actually sucked at it. Why? Because when I was a kid, I was too busy reading Captain Underpants during my Math class. No genetic predisposition there. Simple because I read Captain Underpants.
Who knew a principal running around in his underpants would change my life?
But in the end, people are going to go back to being who they truly are, how God made them, if you will. And while they can learn techniques and behavior management skills and psychotherapy techniques that may help them act in a different way, there will always be that natural pull for people to go back to who they truly are, how they were born. I tell people I counsel that Im going to ask them to be phonies, because to me, that's inevitably what they're doing. Putting on an act, one that covers who they truly are. The one they were made to be by nature. No amount of nurture can truly change that.
I understand what you're saying but if that were the case, Rehabilitation is pointless. Addiction is genetic, sure you can cure it through nurture but if it all came down to genetics rehab centers would have a success rate of about 0%
People seem to think we do bad things because NATURE taught us to but they never realize a simple fact: If nature taught us to be killers we'd all be dead by now. I mean if cavemen who blindly followed instincts were genetically predisposed to be horrible human beings who'd resort to do horrible things...well, then we wouldn't be having this conversation. Nature gives you the tools it had deemed worthy to stand the test of time. Namely, survival instincts, physical genes, health genes, etc. etc.
We're the evil ones. Hitler wasn't born hating jews. If he visited the temple all day, he'd be jewish. Hitler hated jews because he saw them, he was socialized into thinking they were worthless beings. Maybe he was rejected by a jewish girl as a teenager, who knows. Point is, evil is a term created by man and not nature. Nature has no ethics, no morals. It gives us the tools to survive, can those tools make you a sociopath? Well, you have a marginal chance, sure. But only if you give in nurture's triggers.
