Beth/Santino ruined them BOTH professionally

[timmy872]

In my eyes the association between Beth Phoenix and Santino Marella has destroyed their careers.

Beth Phoenix was the dominant diva in WWE. She needed no help to win, she owned the devision she competed in. She was the furthest person you expected to be associated with the comical Santino. But low and behold it happened.

Santino became involved with Beth much more than he ever was with Maria. This made him look like he needed Beth's heel heat to get him over as a heel because so many people liked him for his comical limericks.

My conclusion, Beth Phoenix now jobs to Santino as a tranny. But I do think it would of ruined Beth to make her Ms Wrestlemania, its a shit title, meant for the girl who would of been in playboy that year, it means nothing. Santino is stuck because they aren't sure whether to build him as heel or face.

What are you're thoughts?

 

[Scott Free]

In my eyes the association between Beth Phoenix and Santino Marella has destroyed their careers.

Beth Phoenix was the dominant diva in WWE. She needed no help to win, she owned the devision she competed in. She was the furthest person you expected to be associated with the comical Santino. But low and behold it happened.

Santino became involved with Beth much more than he ever was with Maria. This made him look like he needed Beth's heel heat to get him over as a heel because so many people liked him for his comical limericks.

My conclusion, Beth Phoenix now jobs to Santino as a tranny. But I do think it would of ruined Beth to make her Ms Wrestlemania, its a shit title, meant for the girl who would of been in playboy that year, it means nothing. Santino is stuck because they aren't sure whether to build him as heel or face.

What are you're thoughts?

I think you're partially right. The whole Santino\Phoenix storyline had potential, but it soon turned into crap, then it evolved into a giant pile of crap with the Santina debacle. It left Phoenix in limbo, forgotten and neglected by creative, who seem to have no clue on what to do with her next. Santino on the other hand, is fast becoming a face, and it looks like they might actually let him wrestle and win a few matches too, he's evolving from comedy jobber to comedy wrestler, it's not a stellar jump, but it's a step up.

 

[Black Snow]

I disagree. The match-up showed me a lot of positive aspects to Beth Phoenix that I had never seen in the past. I always found her to be a phenomenal wrestler and an attractive woman but that was the whole of the situation. This teaming with Santino has really let her comedic timing shine. It shows that Beth also has no ego. She's more than willing to be made the fool. I almost compare it to Kurt Angle. She can do a silly skit one moment and the next she'll beat your ass in a seemless transition. That takes a lot of talent and I believe it increased Beth's overall staying power.

Take a woman like Chyna for example. She was unique but she also had the personality of wallpaper. Once you got passed the fact that she was big and could wrestle with guys there wasn't anything left. She quickly faded while her ego grew. Now she's nothing. Beth has show that she's great in the ring, on the mic and can genuinely be entertaining in many ways.

As far as Santino goes I think it comes down to your definition of a successful career. Not everyone can win World titles and main event tons of PPVs. Santino has found a very nice position on the card. He can get a sniff of a tag title or the secondary title here or there but no one ever expects him to main event. So what? Realistically Steve Austin's old speech about how if you're not here to be World Champ then you have no reason to be here doesn't hold water in my book. That's not to say Santino wouldn't love to be World Champ but he knows his limits. As long as he continues to be uniquely entertaining he'll have a spot on the roster. He seems to enjoy what he does.

Besides, look at the alternative. He didn't have a unique look or the greatest body. His wrestling skills are decent but ny no means great. He was just another nobody with a strong, silent gimmick in OVW. On RAW he was supposed to be a lovable underdog but fans quickly tired of that and booed the hell out of him while the heel Umaga killed him. In a stroke of luck he was allowed to be a silly heel and it just worked wonders. Heel or face it doesn't matter. Much like the Honky Tonk Man of old Santino has a solid place on the card. Depending on his heel/face status young heels/faces will interact with him from time to time to get over.

All in all I really just think that people need to broaden their definition of what it means to have a successful career. It's not just about being the top man or woman in the company. It's about being versatile which increases overall staying power.

 

[Joup7]

may I remind you all that Beth Phoenix wrestled (albiet a loss) in the pre-Judgement Day dark match. The pre-PPV dark match is key to warming up the crowd. They wouldn't put a women's match as the pre-match when they have tons of talented men if they didn't have complete faith in the two women.

Keep in mind that Beth Phoenix was a dominant woman on Raw for over a year. There's only so much you can do with that. I think Beth/Santino may have saved her career. She can stew in another area for a bit, then return as a dominant force and be quite fresh.

TNA took the focus off of Awesome Kong for a little while then brought her back into the main picture. And it worked cause she's fresh and dominating again.

Santino.........his career was ruined professionally beforehand. This may have saved him cause now he can wrestle as two people and is a bit fresh again. Btw, i'm assuming the definition of professionally as to being Employed, not being Respected.

 

[Mitchguy]

I disagree. The match-up showed me a lot of positive aspects to Beth Phoenix that I had never seen in the past. I always found her to be a phenomenal wrestler and an attractive woman but that was the whole of the situation. This teaming with Santino has really let her comedic timing shine. It shows that Beth also has no ego. She's more than willing to be made the fool. I almost compare it to Kurt Angle. She can do a silly skit one moment and the next she'll beat your ass in a seemless transition. That takes a lot of talent and I believe it increased Beth's overall staying power.

Take a woman like Chyna for example. She was unique but she also had the personality of wallpaper. Once you got passed the fact that she was big and could wrestle with guys there wasn't anything left. She quickly faded while her ego grew. Now she's nothing. Beth has show that she's great in the ring, on the mic and can genuinely be entertaining in many ways.

As far as Santino goes I think it comes down to your definition of a successful career. Not everyone can win World titles and main event tons of PPVs. Santino has found a very nice position on the card. He can get a sniff of a tag title or the secondary title here or there but no one ever expects him to main event. So what? Realistically Steve Austin's old speech about how if you're not here to be World Champ then you have no reason to be here doesn't hold water in my book. That's not to say Santino wouldn't love to be World Champ but he knows his limits. As long as he continues to be uniquely entertaining he'll have a spot on the roster. He seems to enjoy what he does.

Besides, look at the alternative. He didn't have a unique look or the greatest body. His wrestling skills are decent but ny no means great. He was just another nobody with a strong, silent gimmick in OVW. On RAW he was supposed to be a lovable underdog but fans quickly tired of that and booed the hell out of him while the heel Umaga killed him. In a stroke of luck he was allowed to be a silly heel and it just worked wonders. Heel or face it doesn't matter. Much like the Honky Tonk Man of old Santino has a solid place on the card. Depending on his heel/face status young heels/faces will interact with him from time to time to get over.

All in all I really just think that people need to broaden their definition of what it means to have a successful career. It's not just about being the top man or woman in the company. It's about being versatile which increases overall staying power.

My thoughts exactly. Beth provided a tremendous serious foil for Santino to play off of. It made her much more interesting in my opinion because I found myself looking forward to their segments. (On a side note, I only remember one time where she came close to cracking up on camera. I don't know how she was able to control herself that well, but that's a skill in and of itself.)

I also agree with your sentiment that people need to change their view of what it means to be successful. This kind of thinking is along the same lines of people saying Dibiase and Rhodes are being wasted in Legacy. They're fulfilling the Arn and Tully role of backing up the champion and taking the beatings so that Orton doesn't have to. Look back at the Horsemen or Raven and his Flock. Everyone has their place(theoretically of course) and right now Team Priceless are serving their purpose of protecting Orton and helping build his heat. The whole point of being a heel is that you're not supposed to be liked. So having Orton play a coward who hides behing his flunkies is better than having him be tough because you can't truly hate a tough guy.

Getting back to Santino and Beth, I think they'll both do just fine. It's way too early to say that their pairing has harmed their careers(if that is the case, which I don't agree it is). What would have happened if the same attitude was taken during Rock's debut babyface run? Both the WWE and fans in general are too quick to label people as successful or failure these days. If the modern WWE mindset was in effect when he debuted, everyone would have written him off and they likely would have released him saying creative had nothing for him, and it would have changed the industry.

 

[hArdyPUNKmArk]

I did like it to begin with but I'm glad it's drawing to an end (hopefully). They were funny together for a while but then it just got iritating. That's what I find with Santino though, he'll have a funny few segments/promos then he'll overdo it and it'll become boring and annoying.

Beth has taken a hit from it though for sure, she's not as big a threat as she once was but she's still one of the top Diva's that could take the title any time and make it believable. It wouldn't take much storytelling to get her back to that stage.

 

[Y 2 Jake]

It hasn't had the slightest effect on Santino. Comedy jobber before, now he's a comedy winner. Santino/Santina has only lost twice over the past two months.

The alliance with Santino has been nothing but good for Beth. Before nobody really cared about her. She was solid and she could get ok matches out of Candice Michelle, but people still prefered Kelly Kelly.

 

[Little Jerry Lawler]

I believe Santino helped Beth more than he hurt her. Beth was a dominant diva but really had no personality. Teaming up with Santino showed us that Beth has a somewhat comedic side of her and she allowed him to make a fool out of her. I don't think what she does in the ring is going to diminish but what she does out of the ring can develop.

 

[Mjolnir]

You can't have one superstar or diva remain a dominant force for ever... everyone needs ups and downs and having relationships on WWE is one way they do that. Other ways are injury angles, new personas, wacky ass tag teams, association with midgets, losing streaks, etc. Even jobbers like Funaki and Wang Yang have their day in the spotlight (however brief), because as expansive as the roster is, they need you to think at any given time that everyone is beatable.

The Santino/Santina/Phoenix angle has obviously taken Beth a notch down in the Diva standings for the time being... but only to allow others (Kelly Kelly?) to take the stage for awhile. Beth can't always have the title or be #1 contender, she has to be brought down a peg every once in a while. No one is going to be surprised when she returns to her dominant streak either.

As far as Santino goes... he is over anyways because he makes people laugh, if anything people payed more attention to Beth because they wanted to see what he would do next.

Someone mentioned that Miss Wrestlemania is just a title for the next person who will be in Playboy... P.S. remind me NOT to pick up the Vicki Guerrero Playboy!

 

[Adel_hamra]

yes, both their carreers are messed up...beth who was the most dominant diva is now considered a joke and does santino have a finisher? or when was the last time he had a proper/serious match?this week's match agains chavo was pretty funny but c'mon, take him more serious...if creative wants to turn him into a bigger heel, they should split glamarella and give santino the us title...that will piss people off

 

[Blueshirt]

I'm sorry but I completely disagree with the OP. Wrestling fans (myself included) have incredibly short attention spans. We move from storyline to storyline either forgetting or ignoring the old ones. Beth Phoenix will be over once again and if (un)creative decides to make Santino something other than a comedy act, we will forget about Santina just like we have forgotten about everything else. Sure, we will say remember when...but the fact of the matter is we'll watch the next feud as if the old one had never happened.

 

[ErictheEnt]

I disagree. The match-up showed me a lot of positive aspects to Beth Phoenix that I had never seen in the past. I always found her to be a phenomenal wrestler and an attractive woman but that was the whole of the situation. This teaming with Santino has really let her comedic timing shine. It shows that Beth also has no ego. She's more than willing to be made the fool. I almost compare it to Kurt Angle. She can do a silly skit one moment and the next she'll beat your ass in a seemless transition. That takes a lot of talent and I believe it increased Beth's overall staying power.

Take a woman like Chyna for example. She was unique but she also had the personality of wallpaper. Once you got passed the fact that she was big and could wrestle with guys there wasn't anything left. She quickly faded while her ego grew. Now she's nothing. Beth has show that she's great in the ring, on the mic and can genuinely be entertaining in many ways.

As far as Santino goes I think it comes down to your definition of a successful career. Not everyone can win World titles and main event tons of PPVs. Santino has found a very nice position on the card. He can get a sniff of a tag title or the secondary title here or there but no one ever expects him to main event. So what? Realistically Steve Austin's old speech about how if you're not here to be World Champ then you have no reason to be here doesn't hold water in my book. That's not to say Santino wouldn't love to be World Champ but he knows his limits. As long as he continues to be uniquely entertaining he'll have a spot on the roster. He seems to enjoy what he does.

Besides, look at the alternative. He didn't have a unique look or the greatest body. His wrestling skills are decent but ny no means great. He was just another nobody with a strong, silent gimmick in OVW. On RAW he was supposed to be a lovable underdog but fans quickly tired of that and booed the hell out of him while the heel Umaga killed him. In a stroke of luck he was allowed to be a silly heel and it just worked wonders. Heel or face it doesn't matter. Much like the Honky Tonk Man of old Santino has a solid place on the card. Depending on his heel/face status young heels/faces will interact with him from time to time to get over.

All in all I really just think that people need to broaden their definition of what it means to have a successful career. It's not just about being the top man or woman in the company. It's about being versatile which increases overall staying power.

I actually have to agree with you completely.

I really enjoy Santino and I'm about ready for the Santina gimmick to be dropped, but it was fun for a couple of months. I don't see Santino as a main eventer any day no matter what he does. Still, I really enjoy seeing him on TV and so long as he keeps saying funny crap, I'll want him to stay around. You mentioned it well that not everyone can main event and there is always need for an under card and the under card is not all future main eventers.

 

[Chadmw]

I am hoping that with Santino is that they plan on turning him into a bit more of a serious wrestler who you actually believes has a change of winning.

I see it starting with him winning matches in comedic styles or with fluke wins, but overtime he will start winning with more conventional styles

 

[ztwhite]

I don't think Santino ruined Beth - I think the Diva's division ruined Beth.

Seriously, who could they really match her up with and make it believable that she could be beaten ??

Mickie James ?? Already been done.

Melina ?? Already been done.

All the other Diva's are way too under skilled or way too malnourished. It's the same thing TNA is facing with Awesome Kong right now. Not to digress, but does anyone think Angelina Love can beat Kong without help ?? Absolutely not.

As for Santino, I don't believe he is destined for the WZ classic - "comedic jobber for life" role. Lots of guys have started their careers as wrestling entertainers before becoming superstars - Edge, Christian, Cena & the Rock - hell, HBK and HHH were once part of the largest comedic stable in WWF / WWE history and they did o.k.

There's always a way out if there's talent. I'm just not sure if Santino has true talent, but from what I've read about his time in OVW, he does have in-ring talent, so it's only a matter of time.

 

[Arrynboot]

I agree 100 percent with Black Snow, he described perfectly what it takes to be a success in this industry and a lot of people would benefit from using his idea of broadening their ideas on what success really is.

Beth has in no way suffered from this angle, she dominates santino in the ring but he pulls out sneaky wins, I've seen many top level stars lose the same way and their careers have not suffered, I do think they need to end the whole Santina bit tho.

 

[shafe_41]

Are you kidding? Beth/Santino didn't do anything close to ruining either of them. First... it's not like everything is all real anyway. So creative will forget they even paired them together at this time next year. Then when people ask what you remember the most about the late part of the decade in wrestling around 2008-2009, not one person is going to say how they remember Beth and Santino together. If anything it made their careers better. Let's start with Santino...

Santino is NOT going to be a life-time comedy jobber. I don't know what it takes to convince people of that, but it's not. Santino's run as the comedy jobber was an important part of his career IMO. I think Santino was seen as a great asset to the company but creative just couldn't find a good storyline or anywhere to fit him in the show in a serious manner. So they gave him the comedy role because everybody saw something great in Santino that they knew they wanted to keep him around and on TV and in the eyes of the fans than just being the guy sitting backstage waiting for someone to tell him once every 3 months "hey, we have an extra 7 minutes in tonights show, you're jobbing to Paul Burchill tonight." So obviously Santino has something special to be kept around in such a fashion and not just thrown on the backburner Funaki style. Plus as I've said before, Santino is one of the only reasons I'm even still watching Raw because he is entertaining every. single. week. Hands down. So you know deep down in Santino's heart and in his mind, he loves the fans and loves to entertain the fans at all costs and will do anything to entertain them even if it does include botching the Melina entrance, sporting a unibrow, or dressing like a woman. Santino is a bright spot every single week in a subpar Raw line-up. Nobody wanted to remember Santino as the guy who was given the IC title by Bobby Lashley. That was more damaging to Santino than his role as the consistant comedy on Raw. You can't even defend the way he debuted because it was awful. Yes he got a great pop... but they were in his home country I believe (or England) and it was shortly before WM23 where everyone was behind Lashley and wanting to see Umaga go down somehow. That was just... cheap. On to the Glamazon.

Beth Pheonix and her pairing with Santino did much of the same for her career. She's still the dominant Diva on Raw no matter who has the god-awful looking Diva's title. Everything with Santino shows that she too has other great qualities other than being a great wrestler that we wouldn't see otherwise if she just came out and domianted every single week. Beth can deliver a promo. Serious or Funny, she can do it. Her bits with Santino show she has comedy chops. As someone prior to me also said, she doesn't mind taking the butt the of joke or being on the low end that makes her look foolish, but in a funny way. All of it just adds up to her doing whatever is best for the business and what the fans would enjoy.

If anything, these 2 benefitted from their pairing together. They will both do anything that entertains the fans and it shows neither of them have an ego that they're trying to uphold.

 

[wbuqed]

I think I'm with some of the posters here in that I disagree with the idea that this relationship angle has ruined these 2. You look at Beth and she had relatively no personality, and even if your king (or in her case, queen) of your craft sometimes you can't get ahead without giving writers something to do with you. This relationship was the perfect fodder for helping these two superstars who are technically still on the rise. It allows for fans to see that they don't just have to have "Hate" angles but also funny angles. Santino probably won't win any big titles and he seems to be ok with that given the way he has taken the Santina angle, and for that I give him a round of applause, because so many people wanna get to their main goal as fast as possible.

 

[It's...Baylariat!]

It's like this. Beth and Santino are fine. I mean, sure Santino's a joke, but he was never built up to be strong anyway. So no loss there. Beth Phoenix has beaten them all. I mean, you can only do a Beth v/s Mickie or Beth v/s Candice Michelle match. The only thing left is to do a Beth v/s Maryse match where Beth destroys Maryse, then they make out.

But their careers are fine. For the time being. If all else fails, Santino can be repackaged in FCW, and be brought back because he has legit wrestling and martial arts skills. Beth Phoenix is strong and a solid wrestler in her own right. Plus she's hot, so she's going nowhere. They're not ruined right now. Just hindered.

 

[Razor]

It's not like Beth Phoenix is horrendously fucked over. She had beaten all there were to beat, and dropped the title to someone who could actually feud with it (Melina, right?). When you have no feud options, you have two choices. Heel or Face turn, or hover around doing nothing of any real significance. Lo and Behold, Beth Phoenix was told to hover instead of turning her, because let's face it. She's best as a dominant heel. I don't think she could really pull off a dominant face. Those take a certain kind of something.

Oh jeez, creative had Phoenix waste time by hanging with Santino...and Santino is nothing more than a comedy wrestler. So, quite necessarily, Beth was forced into some weird, supposed to be funny situations. It may have hurt her credibility too some. But I legitimately think that if she were to get into the ring on Monday against Kelly Kelly, everyone would still expect her to win. And if she has lost her dominance in the eyes of the crowd, a month of dominant booking and she's back on top. Because Beth Phoenix knows what she's doing.

As far as Santino? He was always booked as a comedy act, so I don't see how it's hurting him. And he's got a regular show on WWE.com plus a regular 10 minute skit on Raw that the crowd seems into. He's doing just fine with the comedy. If they want to make him dominant, they can either continue what they did last Monday (Santino knocked the hell out of Chavo because Santino got pissed) or they can repackage him in FCW. Doesn't really matter. If Santino is as good as everyone says he is, he'll be fine either way.

 

[kurtisraw07]

Santino came from a background of MMA, and was a dominant guy in OVW. I'm pretty sure if WWE let him work he could be a great technical submission like guy. If WWE would quit being morons, they could completely revamp the US Title division and have some awesome matches with the likes of Santino, MVP, William Regal, Matt Hardy and the Miz. The midcard back in the day used to be just as important and just as good as the main event. Hell they even had great Hardcore matches for the Hardcore title. The WWE is just too kid friendly nowadays. Hopefully Santino will eventually be given the opportunity to be serious. Maybe he has a match with Chavo or somebody and is doing his usual comedy and they fuck him up pretty bad and injure him. Then he could be gone for a while and then come back as a serious badass technical wrestler who fucks up Chavo and the guy who hurt him.