Austin Region, OKC Subregion, First Round: (12) Vader vs. (21) Blue Demon

[klunderbunker]

This is a first round match in the Austin Region, Oklahoma City Subregion. It is a standard one on one match. It will be held at the Chesapeake Energy Arena, Oklahoma City, Oklahoma.

#12. Vader

Vs.

#21. Blue Demon

​

Polls will be open for three days following a one day period for discussion. Voting will be based on who you feel is the greater of the two competitors. Post your reasons for why your pick should win below. Remember that this is non-spam and the most votes in the poll win. Any ties will be broken by the amount of posts of support for each candidate, with one vote per poster.

Also remember that this is a non-spam forum. If you post a response without giving a reason for your selection, it will be penalized for spam and deleted.

 

[IrishCanadian25]

Anyone who knows me know how I'm voting here. Vader is the greatest Superheavyweight in professional wrestling history. He is big, strong, agile, ruthless, inventive, and managed by one of the greatest minds in pro wrestling history in Harley Race.

I am gonna try REALLY hard not to get sucked back into hours of being WZ's resident Vader historian, but despite my respect for Blue Demon's longevity and respectability, as well as his impressive collection of other wrestler's masks, there is a lack of strong evidence of being relevant outside of Mexico. Vader, on the other hand, was a World Champion on 3 continents, multiple times, and holds several major victories over other transcontinental legends such as Sting, Flair, Foley, Anderson, Hogan, Inoki, Canek, Wanz, and several others.

Vader in a walk over the Mexican legend.

 

[Tastycles]

By now, you've seen the argument between luchadors and Vader. The fact is - Vader was a stiff worker who never got a foothold in anywhere in his career whilst Blue Demon managed to remain popular in the same place for 40 years. I have resigned myself to the fact that the support for Vader will linger on, but ultimately Vader is a guy that lost to smaller guys all the time and who's principle successes came from audiences looking for strong style wrestling. Mainstream US audiences are not looking for that, so a guy with the charisma, history and ability of Blue Demon would win here.

 

[IrishCanadian25]

By now, you've seen the argument between luchadors and Vader. The fact is - Vader was a stiff worker who never got a foothold in anywhere in his career whilst Blue Demon managed to remain popular in the same place for 40 years. I have resigned myself to the fact that the support for Vader will linger on, but ultimately Vader is a guy that lost to smaller guys all the time and who's principle successes came from audiences looking for strong style wrestling. Mainstream US audiences are not looking for that, so a guy with the charisma, history and ability of Blue Demon would win here.

1. Vader "never got a foothold?" Are you high? He was entrusted with major world championships for 4 promotions on 3 continents. How much more of a foothold can one possibly have? I'll argue that being able to translate talent across oceans is VASTLY more impressive than just being popular in an insular manner in your home country. Pro Wrestling markets in the United States, Mexico, Japan, and Germany placed major championships on Vader and had him go over their established stars on a regular basis in the 1990's.

2. OF COURSE HE LOST TO SMALLER GUYS, THERE WERE ONLY 1 OR 2 BIGGER GUYS THAN HIM! Who the hell else would he have lost to? Everyone Andre lost to was smaller than he was!

3. If Blue Demon was so charismatic and so historical, why is it that probably 80% of the forums would have to look him up to even know who the hell he is? And don't say it's because the forums are primarily American, because you don't see that same issue with Inoki, Baba, Colon, Fujinami, Rikidozan, etc.

 

[Tastycles]

1. Vader "never got a foothold?" Are you high? He was entrusted with major world championships for 4 promotions on 3 continents. How much more of a foothold can one possibly have? I'll argue that being able to translate talent across oceans is VASTLY more impressive than just being popular in an insular manner in your home country. Pro Wrestling markets in the United States, Mexico, Japan, and Germany placed major championships on Vader and had him go over their established stars on a regular basis in the 1990's.

No it isn't. You and I both know that Vader was too stiff to work anywhere for any measure of time because people wouldn't want to work with him. Being able to be popular in multiple territories is a skill, but people who are popular enough never have to move.

Scott Norton won titles in Japan, John Cena hasn't.

2. OF COURSE HE LOST TO SMALLER GUYS, THERE WERE ONLY 1 OR 2 BIGGER GUYS THAN HIM! Who the hell else would he have lost to? Everyone Andre lost to was smaller than he was!

I meant 'smaller guys' relative to the wrestling spectrum, Shawn Michaels, for example, but appreciate that I didn't make that very clear.

3. If Blue Demon was so charismatic and so historical, why is it that probably 80% of the forums would have to look him up to even know who the hell he is? And don't say it's because the forums are primarily American, because you don't see that same issue with Inoki, Baba, Colon, Fujinami, Rikidozan, etc.

The Japanese people on your list all competed in US promotions or against prominent US wrestlers. Carlos Colon is from Puerto Rico, which is literally part of the United States and his sons wrestled in WWE. I'd say that goes some distance to explaining it.

I've grown to respect Vader a bit more over the last year, oddly through watching his awful WWF run. I still think he'd lose this, but I don't think this result is a travesty. I don't really want to waste any more time on this conversation, see you in the next round.

 

[NSL]

Anyone who knows me know how I'm voting here. Vader is the greatest Superheavyweight in professional wrestling history. He is big, strong, agile, ruthless, inventive, and managed by one of the greatest minds in pro wrestling history in Harley Race.

I am gonna try REALLY hard not to get sucked back into hours of being WZ's resident Vader historian, but despite my respect for Blue Demon's longevity and respectability, as well as his impressive collection of other wrestler's masks, there is a lack of strong evidence of being relevant outside of Mexico. Vader, on the other hand, was a World Champion on 3 continents, multiple times, and holds several major victories over other transcontinental legends such as Sting, Flair, Foley, Anderson, Hogan, Inoki, Canek, Wanz, and several others.

Vader in a walk over the Mexican legend.

For all of these reasons, but especially the one where Vader kicked ass on multiple continents, in many countries, and was a badass in doing so. I'm not knocking Blue Demon's impact or abilities, but in a head-to-head match, it's time...it's time...IT'S...VADER...TIME!

 

[enviousdominous]

Vader was an obnoxious brute, which by the rules of kayfabe will almost always mean that the generic hero in the scenario will valiantly prevail in their epic encounter. Those are the rules, and that gosh-darned audience had better play along OR ELSE!

Yeah, welcome to the 21st century Blue Demon. These days you don't just show up as a guy wearing a mask with a name that sounds like a breakfast cereal. The fans want heel style mayhem, and they're going to want to see Blue Demon get trampled by the Mastadon.

If you watched Blue Demon and most other masked performers from his scene in a battle royal where they were all made to wear simple white masks with no designs, you wouldn't be able to tell who's who. In that same match; you would be able to clearly see Vader from the nose bleed seats, and react just as strongly as those from the front row at his spots.

Vader didn't just put over smaller guys, he also beat those guys even when belts and prestige were on the line. I'll save my favorite examples for when Vader is done stomping his generic opponent into blueberry paste. Vote Vader.

 

[IrishCanadian25]

No it isn't. You and I both know that Vader was too stiff to work anywhere for any measure of time because people wouldn't want to work with him. Being able to be popular in multiple territories is a skill, but people who are popular enough never have to move.

And yet a long list of all time greats DID work with him, multiple times. Flair did. Sting did. Foley did. Hansen did. Arn did. Bulldog did. Simmons did. Inoki did. Canek did. Wanz did.

You and I agree on ONE THING with Vader - the dude was stiffer than he needed to be, and that worked to his detriment. In a kayfabe tournament, that's fairly irrelevant.

Scott Norton won titles in Japan, John Cena hasn't.

Cena hasn't won titles in Japan because the business landscape of WWE is SO MUCH DIFFERENT than it ever was, and even in the 90's they didn't let a lot of their guys go over to Japan the way WCW may have been willing to do. WWE, unlike indies and smaller promotions like TNA, want to OWN guys.

And like Norton, Vader won titles in Japan. And like Cena, Vader won titles in the US. And he also won in Mexico. And Germany. With the exception of the UK / Britain, I think we may have just listed the top 4 professional wrestling countries in the world. Vader was on top of them all at one time or another.

I meant 'smaller guys' relative to the wrestling spectrum, Shawn Michaels, for example, but appreciate that I didn't make that very clear.

Fair enough, I appreciate the clarification. The Michaels relation is a good one. (not sarcasm.)

I've grown to respect Vader a bit more over the last year, oddly through watching his awful WWF run. I still think he'd lose this, but I don't think this result is a travesty. I don't really want to waste any more time on this conversation, see you in the next round.

Works for me, though admittedly it chaffs me that after 6 or 7 years or going tit for tat with me about the mertis of Vader it was the ONE YEAR I stayed entirely away that you turned a corner. I'm hurt. Hold me.

 

[nightmare]

Vader should probably win this. Not based on being stiff or for a fat guy moonsault, but because of his success all over the world. Demon was not a big deal really anywhere but Mexico.

 

[SSJPhenom]

Have to go with Vader here.

Before he was ruined by the WWE, he was a major player everywhere he went. Winning major championships internationally and right here in the states in WCW. He even beat the hell out of Sting for the WHC and ripped off Foley's ear. Ok, he didn't literally rip it off but he was a part of that incident. I'm saying, at one time, Vader was the baddest of bad asses. A legit monster that very often legit hurt people. Now that's not necessarily a good thing but it happened. Also, don't think Vader was a slouch in the athleticism department either, because he was agile and gifted in the ring. As a matter of fact, he was so good that he's the second greatest super heavyweight of all time behind the Undertaker (unless you don't count 'Taker as a SHW).

I don't mean to sleep on Blue Demon, but he's not beating Vader here.

Vote Vader.

 

[IrishCanadian25]

Jesus its IC.

Guess its Vader Time.

Vader was just up here saying "holy shit it's Maverick and Goose."

Glad you also agree that Vader is the right choice here. Cheers.

 

[Richard Blonoff]

I don't really like Vader. I think he was a big deal in Japan because of his style, not because of his talent. That isn't to say he didn't have talent. I don't see too many 400 pounders doing moonsaults. I mostly remember Vader as a bit of a joke in WWE, like that one time he put his singlet on backwards, then rammed his head into a locker while Cornette yelled in the background.

Blue Demon was a huge deal in Mexico. One of arguably the three biggest names in Mexican wrestling history. His son is an asshat though and suffers from that disease Mil Mascaras has where he pushes himself over young talent despite being almost a hundred years old. That coupled with the fact that I don't know of too many instances of Demon facing super heavyweights gives Vader the vote here.

 

[IrishCanadian25]

I don't really like Vader. I think he was a big deal in Japan because of his style, not because of his talent. That isn't to say he didn't have talent. I don't see too many 400 pounders doing moonsaults. I mostly remember Vader as a bit of a joke in WWE, like that one time he put his singlet on backwards, then rammed his head into a locker while Cornette yelled in the background.

Two things I'd love people to look past: The Moonsault and the WWE "run." The WWE run was rough as Vince wasn't going to put over a WCW guy easily, and Shawn Michaels was such a bitch about it. The Moonsault is amazing, but Vader was a lot more than just one high spot.

His son is an asshat though and suffers from that disease Mil Mascaras has where he pushes himself over young talent despite being almost a hundred years old.

Gagne-green?

 

[Bernkastel]

I voted for Blue Demon. The man was an icon in Mexico. And while Vader was popular in Japan, he never reached those same heights. He didn't find nearly the popularity in the States as he did in the East, and his consistency was no where near as good either. Blue Demon is one of the few men to hold a winning record against Santo and was almost every bit as popular and influential. Hold it against him that he never worked outside his home country if you must, but the fact is that he didn't need to. He pumped far more money into lucha libre than Vader ever did in puroresu or Western sports entertainment. But I digress.

Vader can have this win. He'll be fed to Triple H next round.

 

[OYDK]

FOREARM-FOREARM-FOREARM-BALLGAME.

Seriously though, I'm not going to pretend that I'm an aficionado on Blue Demon, my exposure to him is through random matches that I've watched and seeing his son wrestle. Maybe this is not fair to Blue Demon, but I just don't see how he gets around The Mastadon anywhere other than his home country. He wasn't necessarily a household name in America, while everybody who lived during the 80s reveres Vader for the monster that he was.

Yeah, a star in multiple countries and the fact that I don't see anything Blue Demon does being able to put Vader down for the 3, gives my vote to Vader.

 

[NSL]

Yeah, a star in multiple countries and the fact that I don't see anything Blue Demon does being able to put Vader down for the 3, gives my vote to Vader.

This seems to be the part people leave out. It wasn't just Japan where Vader was popular and had success. It was basically everywhere where wrestling matters. He's a legend to some people, and no one can deny his abilities in the ring. I think it sucks he's losing this match.