Well, I suppose I had to respond at some point, and I'm up, so I guess I'll do it now.
This is yet another lie, I've never said wresting should be a sport and have said many times else where that it shouldn't be deemed as such. Just look through my profile elsewhere, I've never said anything about wresting should be considered a sport and have laughed at people thinking such. As usual, you lie when you have nothing to go on.
I have never, ever seen you laugh at anyone when they suggested as such. And nor will you come out and suggest that it should because you would be laughed at for the mere suggestion that it should. Instead, you have to read between the lines of your posts.
You support in-ring product over storyline. Check.
You consistently harp on work-rate and frequently criticize match performances far more than a casual fan. Check.
You are a big supporter of Ring of Honor, Chikara, Dragon Gate, along with Japanese Wrestling such as New Japan. All of those promotions are heavy match-focused promotions. Check.
You frequently ridicule storylines in wrestling. Check.
You frequently complain about match times being too short. Check.
You have frequently justified the toning down of all aspects of the wrestling business, including toning down characters. Check.
You complain because the public doesn't take wrestling seriously. Check.
To alleviate this problem, you suggested that people come to the shows in suits and ties. Check.
All one has to do is add it up and connect the dots on how you want the public to view wrestling. You want the public to have the same point of view as smarks when it comes to in-ring workrate and look at it in the same critical structure. That way, like many smarks, it can be twisted around to be viewed as a sport ...... with the best in-ring worker getting the push and the title.
That's the way you want to view wrestling. That's fine. However, I will always take the better Entertainer and Character over in-ring workrate. I'm not saying they should completely suck, but this consistent harping on ringwork, ringwork, ringwork that the IWC has done ..... to the point of where a worker botches one single move .... has gotten to the point where people now call for these people's jobs for botching a single move.
Take Gail Kim for instance. That match with Mickie about two months ago had people calling for her to resign when she received a concussion, because she botched the finish, as a result of being knocked out. These are people that view wrestling like a sport.
I simply feel it should be viewed as a TV Action/Drama sitcom more so than a sport, and would argue for those fans that are concerned with wrestling being taken more seriously by Mainstream America, that this type of Marketing has a far better chance of connecting with them, then trying to convince the public to view it as some sort of a real sport, the way smarks view in-ring wrestling competition.
You're really taking this IWC gimmick as far as you can I see. It means nothing we're a couple of marks on a computer arguing over men that pretend to fight in underwear.
Are you arguing that Vince doesn't pay attention to the IWC? Why does he harp on Spoilers and Long-term plans leaking out if the IWC is so damn insignificant to him?
As far as members of the IWC being "community leaders" of sorts, let me ask you who smartened you to the business, and how did that process shape up?
Cena should win more and shouldn't be losing every other month.
Why? To make the PPV's predictable, and make people frustrated with spending $40 a month always to see a guaranteed Cena victory?
I thought it was spamming to talk about what goes on at another board in the Spam Free part of the board? What happens else where stays there.
Haven't seen that specifically mentioned in the Rule Book. You can't mention the name of forums elsewhere, but nobody ever said you couldn't bring up what was discussed by a poster on here, elsewhere. You are free to bring up some of our past conversations, as well.
But this does help establish what type of character you are for those not familiar with you.
I guessed being "pressed' is the new trolling. Just ask and I'll tell you, no need to you know: get all angry and start trying to get personal, wouldn't want you to have a meltdown or something.
Pressing someone on an issue isn't trolling at all. If you follow them all around the forums and to other boards, it may be considered trolling though.
Here is the definition of trolling, though.
Trolling: This is known as following a specific poster around, for the sole purpose of annoying them or insulting the topic they are commenting on. It can also apply to simply insulting a thread or post, rather than having an opinion on it. If you think a thread or post sucks, there is no need to comment on it. Move on, or make a contribution to the conversation in the topic. Trolling may result in an Infraction.
No not really. I give Russo credit for the one good year in 1998, but everything he has done the last 10 years has been shit. I mean look at his track record, since he left WWE. But again, I don't know why we're even having this conversation. I thought the thread was about people telling you why they like the product, without talking about the business side. You're confusing yourself and wasting my time.
Well, if I am "wasting your precious time", then please don't feel the need to respond to anything I say. Nobody is holding a gun to your head to respond.
What was done in 1999 that was so different to both 1998 and 2000, that you couldn't stand?
Until Survivor Series 2000.
Are you sure about that? IMDB has him listed as working with WWE until the year 2002.
Do you have a link somewhere that supports that he left at Survivor Series 2000? Not calling you a liar, but I would just like to see what you got, since there is apparently some discrepancy.
He used story boards, was a freak for continuity, he linked everybody together and made everybody seem important without giving them dumb gimmicks. He incorporated great storylines with great wrestling, and made everybody seem credible. Everybody from the lower-mid-upper mid-to The ME was viewed as important, and he made it easy to slot new guys in to the Main Event scene without missing a beat, and the fans bought it, literally. What is even more impressive, he did it without Austin, Taker, and Foley, and it ended up being WWF's most successful year until 2007. The matches still hold up and the angles still hold up.
Ok.
Vince Russo left WWE and signed with WCW on October 5, 1999. So if Chris Kreski took over at that point and left as you said in October of 2000, you are essentially on record as calling him the greatest writer in WWE history, while basing his performance off of 1 whopping year as Lead Writer.
And following WWE since 1990 and watching it through the Attitude Era as well, I honestly could not point out any huge differences in programming content in that single time frame. I didn't find it distinguishable.
So if you wonder why I come to the conclusion that you simply don't like Vince Russo and have a problem with him being known as The Creator of The Attitude Era ...... when you turn around and praise another writer as the Greatest Thing in History Since Sliced Bread, when he was only with the company as Lead Writer for a year, then that's why.
4 guys from WCW debuted and were a faction. I was not impressed with the actual "Invasion" at all. It was no different than any other faction debuting and having each other's backs. When they split up and each were given characters of their own, was when things got interesting.
DX/Helmsely/Mcmahon regime vs The Rock
What was done substantially different here than Austin vs McMahon? Basically, this was a repeat of Austin/McMahon, except the Rock was inserted.
The Kurt/Steph/Triple H love Triangle
I did like this quite a bit, actually. I was at SummerSlam 2000 in Raleigh when they had the Triple Threat Match with The Rock, when Angle received his concussion.
Benoit and Jericho main event pushes
Good move to move them up. Who's to say Russo wouldn't have?
All drew better then the shit fest in 1999.
Oh, so now we are going into "WWE Shareholder" mode again? I want to hear your opinions in this thread.
But again, maybe you can specifically elaborate and give us a nice looooong laundry list on what was so different in 1999 compared to 2000, since you are so adamant that this single year was transformed like night and day.
So yeah, that is why I liked Kreski better.
I was hoping for a much more extensive list than simply that. You only pointed out three single storylines and a single decision (which was probably Vince McMahon's) to move Benoit and Jericho up the roster. That was it.
Well I like Cena because he is a great character and I've always been a fan of the WWE Style babyface, which is basically babyface overcoming the odds and coming out victorious. This has been WWE's formula since Bruno and Pedro, and it has always worked through the Hogan and Austin's era, and it worked in 2007 with Cena, but now they're booking him like he is one of the stars, opposed to being THE star like he should be.
Okay.
But you do certainly have to admit that we live in a different day and age now where there are a Hell of a lot more PPV's than the Hogan Era, and there obviously weren't any in the Age of Bruno and Pedro.
You can't expect the public to necessarily accept the same things today that they did back then. The concept of the Internet has made people a lot more impatient, and seeing the same result over, and over, and over again simply does not appeal to people anymore. Plus, with the multitude of PPV's we have now, instead of seeing Hogan victorious 4 times a year, you are asking the public to be happy seeing Cena victorious 9 or 10 times a year .... not to mention all the times he wrestles on Raw for TV.
I just don't think that is realistic, and is a big reason why the fans turned on Cena early on. Fortunately, a good amount of them have since come around because he is known for being a great guy behind the scenes, a good employee, and is a very good worker. But booking him like the way you wanted the company to book him resulted in the fans actually turning on Cena. That tells me that they aren't happy with the "Superman" style of booking anymore in this day and age.
I think WWE is awesome because I love the booking on Smackdown, and how Hayes finds a way to book the show around the World title, while building up the Mid card titles. I like the way JeriShow are giving credibility back to the Tag Division. They really seem like a badass team that nobody can fuck with. Jericho playing the smarmy smartass heel and basically hiding behind The Giant Big Show is entertaining to me.
Well, developing the Midcard has been a critique of mine for the past several years. I appreciate that many within the IWC has jumped down WWE's case for this, as well. Unfortunately, I have also gotten in debates with many of the "WWE Shareholders" who had adopted Vince's philosophy of "Only the Main Event matters, and everything else is filler".
But I have to give credit to each of the shows in seemingly doing a much, much better job with promoting the Midcard these days. I am just in utter disbelief that Vince has let it go this much over the years, and failed to see what the repercussions of such a move would be.
As far as Jericho and Big Show and the Tag Team Titles, this is another discussion I have gotten in with a couple people. I really don't see them bringing credibility back to the Tag Team Titles at all. I'm glad to see Vince McMahon back into backing the Midcard once again, but he has still not embraced the Tag Team Division, which I really want to see again.
It's hard for Jericho and Show to really restore credibility to the Division, when it is still so bare to begin with.
You figure we have:
Legacy (which look to be breaking up soon)
Cryme Tyme
Hart Dynasty
Kozlov/Jackson (who Jerishow basically doesn't even appear on ECW)
I don't see them adding any credibility to the Tag Team Division at all, really. They are basically just there, and Vince is using them as Tag Team Champions to appear on both shows and inflate the appearance of established Upper Midcarders on the two rosters.
I do not see them defending the Tag Team titles regularly. They are basically inserted into big angles on each of the broadcasts. I just don't see the prestige rubbing off on the titles, so much as Jericho and Show being simply used to appear on both broadcasts.
I Love Jericho's promos as well as Punks, I think they are the best in the business at playing heels and incorporating their characters in to their matches and promos. They do a good job of building heat and setting the faces up for big comebacks, both in the ring and in promos. They pay attention to detail, an art lost in pro wrestling.
Punks promos are good. I do think Jericho's promos are vastly over-rated, but we've been down that road before and I won't go into it again on here.
Jericho does consistently get a negative reaction though, so at least the fans respond to it. Just from a personal perspective, I think his promos in this particular character are over-rated, primarily because of repetitiveness. Then again, repetitiveness has been a highly successful technique with some of the greatest heels in the business.
As far as the "lost art of pro wrestling", again I have to put the finger on Vince for this one, as I do feel he has lost the art of it. But there has been some noticeable improvement out of the company in the past couple months though. It's just a shame that he "lost the touch" to begin with, for several years at that.
Again with the petty trolling. It's pretty obvious your feelings are hurt from else where and it's bleeding over to this forum.
Oh, no. My feelings aren't hurt whatsoever. If you recall, I left the other place in April and didn't return until September, only pushing the End Hornswoggle/Chavo program petition.
All I was simply saying was that the quality of posting elsewhere isn't nearly as good, because of their flex in what is tolerated for "spam". Hence all the "He's awesome", "That's awesome", "Everything is just awesome" posts out of you.
It would be nice to see you up your game with quality over quantity and quit worrying about what your post count and rep are. You do that stuff, then the other things like rep will take care of themselves.
Not really it was a team of writers. You blame Vince when something isn't going right but credit Russo when things you like happen. Typical double standards and wishy washy posting. I don't care to get in to that, this is an argument that will never be settled and it will become an endless cycle.
Funny. I don't think I have ever seen you come down on Vince McMahon for anything other than steroid use. It is so rare to actually see you criticize WWE for anything, but to actually criticize "Vince McMahon" is even more of a rarity.
You credit Kreski immensely, for the one lone year he was Head Writer, bash Russo .... and seemingly don't say anything at all about Vince McMahon. Do you feel Vince McMahon has only a minimal role in Creative?
What my thoughts are, are this. I feel when McMahon was facing bankruptcy when WCW was kicking his ass, he had no idea what to do. Most people accept that. When Russo came along and pitched his ideas for a new cutting edge program (with many elements inspired by ECW), Vince went for it and gave Russo and Ferrara a lot of flexibility, with Vince concentrating most of his Creative time on solely the Main Event.
When Kreski and Russo left, that is when I think Vince kicked it into high gear and exerted far more control over the Creative team then he did under those two writers.
That is why I credit Russo for most of his booking in WWE, can credit Kreski for his single year as Head Writer, and why I fault Vince for the past several years, since he rules the Creative Team these days with an iron fist ... which isn't a good thing as far as I'm concerned.
If Russo did it himself he should have easily been able to do it some where in the last ten years. He hasn't been able to, he was a one hit wonder. What has he done outside of Stamford?
Well, it's clear that Russo has nothing outside of wrestling. That is his thing. I think you know why I don't fault him for WCW, as the AOL/Time Warner merger killed WCW, along with very bad internal decisions, including decisions to give too many talent Creative Control clauses along with salaries that were far too high. Russo came in to a clusterfuck, and wasn't able to patch together the pieces in time. He was at Hogan's mercy, as those two routinely butted heads about the direction of Hogan's character, yet WCW would have been sued if Russo did not comply with him.
Russo was all for pushing the younger guys, something I don't hear enough people give him credit for. He made Chris Benoit WCW champion. He pushed Booker T up into the Main Event.
As far as his work in TNA, I can not say that I am upset with it. Not as good as his work in WWE, but I'll tell you this much .... his work is better on Impact today than what I have seen on Raw for the past couple years.
He simply does a lot better job with storylines and getting people to actually care about the wrestlers themselves, as opposed to sticking un-developed guys who the crowd could care less about, out there to wrestle, and simply expect the audience to react. He seems to understand the notion that the crowd isn't going to connect to the wrestlers UNLESS you actually give them a reason to connect. And they aren't going to connect solely based on their in-ring abilities. Russo seems to understand that. McMahon did not these past couple years.
You'll probably see The Dungeon of Doom. Hogan is 56 and pretty much broke, and doesn't draw without another name on the other side of the ring.
I doubt that. Hogan is smart enough to see that WWE is the family-friendly company, where as TNA is now the adult and older teen company. So I can say with confidence that we aren't going to be seeing any Dungeons of Doom any time soon (thank goodness).
He will never let a guy like AJ or Joe work on top in a company he is apart of, and he will never really let Russo stick around, hell he is baiting Russo already.
Like I said before, if I were Dixie Carter, I would probably tell Hogan "hands off Russo". It's pretty clear that Hogan and McMahon were in the middle of a feud even before this happened and going back to WWE wasn't on the table at this point.
Therefore, as far as I'm concerned, Dixie still had the advantage and she should use that.
Now, as far as Hogan bypassing Russo for asking for Creative Control, as much as I would hate to say it, I would consider it. I would be more opt to consider this as opposed to firing Russo in order to bring in Hogan.
I do think Hogan's finances are hurt and that he needs TNA right now more than TNA necessarily needs Hogan. If TNA is content with being #2 and essentially just being a cash register for Panda Energy, then so be it. I know a lot of people were scratching their heads at why TNA wasn't taking more risks to move ahead, but what I don't think a lot of people were considering was that maybe Panda Energy was simply content with TNA providing the capital they were providing and didn't really seek to compete with Vince.
But if they want to step up their game, let's see what they got.
Now, as far as Hogan working with AJ and Samoa Joe ... Hogan put Goldberg over and it made Goldberg a huge star in record time. I don't question him putting over a Top Babyface in the company, and I have a feeling that person will be AJ Styles. As far as Samoa Joe, I am not quite as sure on that one.
I am just hoping that Hogan comes in and becomes a Heel pretty quickly, as I think that is the way to go with him.
Hogan in WCW didn't catch on until a heel turn and even then he wasn't the biggest drawing act in WCW's boom period, Goldberg was.
Goldberg was the draw he was thanks to Hogan putting him over in the Georgia Dome.
However, before that, Hogan was indeed the draw. Impressive for a Heel to be the Top Draw, too.
The second top rating draw was Flair, behind Goldberg. Goldberg was the guy who gave them that monster year in 1998, and then Bischoff let Nash fuck it up. History will repeat itself. These guys aren't going to TNA because they feel they can build it up, they couldn't careless about TNA coming up. They see a cash cow and they're going to milk it dry. One because guys like Hogan, Nash, Flair, and Foley know that Vince will always give them a job back. However getting free money only comes around once every blue moon, examples being WCW and TNA.
Oh, I am going to have to dispute that one, as well. You mean to tell me that if a card was being advertised and only one of the two between Hogan and Flair could be on it, that Flair would prove to be the bigger draw being on that card more so than Hogan?
I attended a WCW House Show at Baltimore Arena in which Hogan was on the card when he was WCW Champion in his NWO days, and that thing was completely sold out. I've been there other times before in that same time period with Flair on top and it was not sold out.
Even going back to their days in the WWF, Flair was never as big a draw as Hogan was.
You simply have a heavy bias against both Hogan and Vince Russo. It's just funny how you don't like either one of them, yet those two can't stand each other.
Hogan doesn't draw on a full time basis anymore this was proven in 2002, getting pops doesn't=drawing. Hogan was great at getting pops in 2002, but once he won the title nobody cared.
That's because Hogan wasn't really wrestling Full Time. He was around for sporadic appearances.
Now as far as Hogan's pops go, please. Hogan would still outpop John Cena any day in WWE.
But again, I think the better way to market Hogan in TNA is to do what they did with him in WCW and work him as a Heel, but this time, a Heel figure with some authority. I think Foley needs to go from that "Majority Shareholder" role he has in TNA, and do a storyline where perhaps Hogan purchases the company with Eric Bischoff.
You care about the bottom line way more then I do. But if you want to talk about it, we can go there to, kid.
That's funny, you calling me "kid". I think I am actually older than you.
But yes, we can talk bottom line all night if we want to, and I'd be happy to elaborate on why some bottom lines are better today then when they were several years ago, as well.
It has to do with raising $$$$$$$$ on pretty much everything.
You're lying and you know it.
LOL. Okay, so you are accusing me of putting WWE business interests first and foremost over what actually interests me, and in essence are calling me a "WWE Shareholder"? Hysterical.
Believe me, Industry. If that were truly the case, I would be supporting the PG Era with absolute blind faith because it is profitable. You'll see that I am doing anything but.
I didn't mark out for that spot. I actually bashed the segment because Triple H looked stupid with the constipated shaking. Look it up
I don't deny that you criticized Triple H as I remember you doing it.
But you also popped big time for Orton DDT'ing Stephanie. I also remember you touting "Now how is this PG television??!!", acting like Vince had crossed the line and wasn't doing PG television in that segment, despite having the PG rating.
And if you remember, the entire thread was praising how well that segment came off (minus Triple H's facial reactions).
But after it is said and done, you have to pretend like you were not in favor of seeing women struck in any scripted storyline segment for purposes of generating heat.
That was an example of where you once again reverted back to the "WWE Shareholder" mentality.
The Share Holder gimmick is never going to get over, no matter how much you force it. If you want, I could make it catch on for you, but you'd have to pay a fee.
That's right. I forgot you needed the money to get your subscription back to the wrestling pay site we were discussing, so you could show me how the posters there came up with the terminology "PG Era" before the posters here at Wrestlezone did. We named the current WWE Era. And now, it's all over the Internet.
As far as paying you a fee, no thank you at this time. Appreciate the offer, though.
TNA has never been healthy competition. They shouldn't even be competing until they get their shit together. Going up against WWE when they're barely breaking a 1.0 and can't even draw decent outside a free venue like The Impact Zone isn't a smart move. They should work on being the best they could be on Thursday night before they start, jumping in to a fire with Gasoline MEM shirts on.
I am sure that Bischoff, Hogan, and the Carters are mapping out a strategy and a road map on expanding the company as we speak, to make those very preparations.
I seriously doubt they are going to jump right in and then say "So, now what do we do?"
That is obviously what they are working on right at this moment, between when they signed and the next round of Impact tapings.
People like you want too see TNA die, if it means getting WWE back to Attitude
Not at all. Think of me like the character Ra's al Ghul as portrayed in Batman Begins. I believe in there being a balance. If the balance becomes heavily tilted (in this case between WWE and TNA), then that is not a good thing. Don't expect any terrorist threats from me though, in the name of starting over again. But still, if the roles were reversed this time and TNA eliminated WWE, then what's to say that TNA also won't get lazy and do the same thing Vince did?
There needs to be at least two major companies for a healthy wrestling business to exist.
but what will it do for guys who will lose their jobs, when the second best option on wrestling goes out of business because foolish mismanagement? WWE will still be doing PG Programming and guys will be back on the indy circuit struggling to get pay days.
Which is why both companies must continue to stay in existence.
But hey, I love watching train wrecks, so I can't wait to see the DVD of TNA's history.
In a way, I would have to laugh if TNA produced a DVD entitled "The Self-Destruction of the WWE".
Now, keep in mind that I did say that two organizations should exist for a healthy wrestling business. I didn't say, however, that one of those HAD to be the WWE. So if hypothetically TNA put the WWE out of business, I would be okay as long as another wrestling company came along to restore the balance, and serve as a check for TNA.
It's just a shame that you prefer there only being one wrestling organization, which really hinders wrestling fans all over. Because it only offers them one choice for their wrestling entertainment, with a "Take it or Leave it" philosophy. Fans are very loyal to the wrestling business and are willing to be spoon-fed by Vince because of that loyalty. However, I am not so sure that the masses are so much loyal to Vince, as it is they are loyal fans of the wrestling business.
I would be highly disappointed if disgruntled fans with today's product simply stuck it out with Vince because the company has the "WWE" label attached to the product. Although that is a very large obstacle, in this day and age.
TNA shouldn't focus on making a new show on Monday Night, if their going to start pouring out money they should focus on making Impact the best it could be, increasing attendance and PPV buys. It's clear they haven't thought this through and by time they do, it will be too late.
I'm quite sure they are thinking it through now. Bischoff, Hogan, Russo, and Carter do not want to see a repeat of WCW going down the drain. But if they wait too long, then it will be too late, and the buzz will have died.
So no, I don't think it is in their best interests to wait. I think they have to play a game of "Beat the Clock" and "get in while the get-in is good". They need to make decisions now, and they need to be quick and decisive over it, because they have a very limited window to work with.
Hell, Hogan has been on 3 shows the last 2 days and doesn't even seem like he want to talk about TNA, he basically no sells the the topic every time somebody brings it up.
And that is clearly the strategy. He'll be out there promoting TNA when they are ready to do so, and implement some changes first. Why does it make sense to heavily promote the product, before you are able to strategically position your company where you want it to be? It's obvious that some changes need to be made to prepare for taking the company to the next level, first, before promoting the company before they are ready to do so.
Let's be real Sidious, you never cared about TNA until Russo became head booker. 6 months ago, you were saying the company would die without Angle. You never cared about Vince's Monopoly until last week. You're like the typical bandwagon smark, you go with the wind.
I did not say that the company would die without Angle. I am on record stating that Angle actually made very little difference in ratings and buyrates since he actually joined the company.
Although, when Russo took over as Head Booker, yes I was extremely happy to learn that people like Jarrett and Mantel were removed, while Russo was given a promotion. Jarrett and Mantel were simply too old school in their booking, and were holding the company back.
Oh, this should be fun ....
You asked what I liked about the product? I explained it
To a limited degree, yes.
You lied about me bashing The Attitue Era, and I didn't.
Nope. You bashed the Attitude Era on many an occasion. Although, clearly you realize that you aren't going to make many friends on this forum by doing so, like you did elsewhere, so it is rather obvious why you feel you must say to the contrary.
But from my past experiences in talking to you, I know what you said.
You said you wanted to talk about the Current Product and typical Sidious, you really didn't, it was just another stream to start your Attitude Era propaganda.
Again, notice the way you say "Attitude Era propaganda". It's clear that you do not like that Era. Maybe you can go into the Negative WWE Discussion thread and debate some people, since it seems like with a sample of approximately 300 people (which I think is actually decent for an IWC sample) ... more of them are actually displeased with your favorite Era, the PG Era, then they were thrilled with prior Eras.
Be my guest. I know you like getting into nice long debates with people since after all, you proclaim yourself and advertise yourself to be "right 95% of the time". Let's see a little more of that Industry as opposed to the watered-down one that I've seen on here.
I realize you are out of your comfort zone, but I promise you will have a far better breed of poster to debate with on here overall, as opposed to elsewhere. That is, assuming you are comfortable with doing so.
You want to be a WWE Share Holder
Ironically, I do hold a single share of WWE stock as a gag gift someone got me from online. But if I had a "shareholder" mentality, I most certainly would not be bashing the PG Era, as I stated earlier. It wouldn't make a shred of sense to.
You have some other beef with me from elsewhere and you're trolling me to have a flame war with you.
I don't see me following you all around the forums "trolling you". I see me having a debate with you in this very thread. I am seeing this trend that anyone who actually "debates you", you accuse of "trolling you". Doesn't work that way, pal. At least not here, it doesn't.
Now, if you don't want to debate, nobody is forcing you.
You for some reason basically said you believe the IWC is a Revolution.
I said that I think that members of the IWC can have a degree of influence over the Casual Fans, yes.
Indeed.
