Are We Lowering Our Standards?

Nate DaMac

Fuck erbody but me
My first thread devoted to Women's wrestling. It's not a positive one. In my eyes, there are 2 group of Divas: the supermodel wannabes (Kellly Kelly, Maryse, etc) and the "good ones" (Beth Phoenix, Mickie, etc.) My thoughts concern the latter. These Women are often called the best the WWE has, but is that really a fair assessment? Are there really any good women wrestlers anymore? Are these girls actually good, or are we giving them more credit than they deserve? I don't believe there is a single good Diva today. It seems that most people label them good because they don't really have any standards by which to be measured. If you don't expect a lot from the women, that's your opinion, but to me wrestling is wrestling, there is no sexist double standard that says women should be held at lower expectations than men. When's the last time you seen a Divas match that you put over 2 stars?
 
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Not since Trish and Lita has the WWE had good female wrestlers. Gail Kim is decent, but her better work was on TNA. I'm more of a WWE fan then a TNA fan, but TNA does have a leg up in their Knockouts division. Most of them are actually good at what they do.
 
My first thread devoted to Women's wrestling. It's not a positive one. In my eyes, there are 2 group of Divas: the supermodel wannabes (Kellly Kelly, Maryse, etc) and the "good ones" (Beth Phoenix, Mickie, etc.) My thoughts concern the latter. These Women are often called the best the WWE has, but is that really a fair assessment? Are there really any good women wrestlers anymore? Are these girls actually good, or are we giving them more credit than they deserve? I don't believe there is a single good Diva today. When's the last time you seen a Divas match that you put over 2 stars?


I agree that the WWE Diva's could probably fit into 2 categories quite nicely, however, I'm not sure that I agree with your assessment of the group you term "the good ones". Unfortunately, this group contains a small list of names as it is. For me, Beth Phoenix, Melina, Gail Kim, Natalya and Mickie James are it. I do believe they are good wrestlers and I don't think they get enough credit. It's true, there is very rarely a "good" women's match in the WWE these days, but I put most of the blame on the booking rather than the wrestlers.

Beth Phoenix is a great example of terrible booking. She was run into the ground during her storyline with Santino Marella and she has yet to recover. Yeah, it was entertaining but it did nothing but make Beth look weak as a wrestler. If these women are ever to be taken serious as wrestlers, the booking needs to develop actual storylines centered around the women who we all know are solid and capable in the ring.

Unfortunately, there are so many Diva's still learning the trade and they are doing it on national TV. The women who I have listed as good wrestlers all had a chance to train and hone their skills before ever setting foot in a WWE ring.
 
Not since Trish and Lita has the WWE had good female wrestlers. Gail Kim is decent, but her better work was on TNA. I'm more of a WWE fan then a TNA fan, but TNA does have a leg up in their Knockouts division. Most of them are actually good at what they do.
Were Trish and Lita really any good, or do they just look good compared to the shit we have to deal with these days? They were shit too, the smell just wasn't as apparent. TNA Knockouts suck just as hard as the Divas. I think the Knockouts just appear better because as a whole, they aren't as supermodelish. They aren't any better, they just dress ****ier.
 
Were Trish and Lita really any good, or do they just look good compared to the shit we have to deal with these days? They were shit too, the smell just wasn't as apparent. TNA Knockouts suck just as hard as the Divas. I think the Knockouts just appear better because as a whole, they aren't as supermodelish. They aren't any better, they just dress ****ier.
Have you watched TNA lately? I'm guessing that's a no because if you did, you would have seen Cheerleader Melissa/Raisha Saeed/Raisha Saeed who is one of the best female workers in the entire business. Sure she's just one person, but she's extremely talented. And if you are going to go and say that Trish and Lita weren't good, then you really don't think of any female wrestlers of being good, do you?
 
I'm not gonna give a diplomatic answer here, as much as I wish I could. I've said this before and I'll say it again, I only like the women because of their sex appeal, straight up. As fucked up as that may sound, I'm being honest. The big tits, perfect asses, and symmetrical faces distract me from what they do in the ring. I enjoy action, I get that with wrestlers. I enjoy good writing, I get that with storylines. I enjoy sex, and I get that with the divas.
 
I'm gonna have to agree with most of the people here. When I see a Diva's match coming up on WWE, I always fast forward thru it. (God Bless DVR's!) I know there are some Hot Diva's in the WWE but I don't watch wrestling for that purpose. I hate watching these women go out there and make everything look so fake and mess every move up. Now TNA is a whole different story. I actually stick thru it and watch their matches cuz they're actually pretty descent. They know how to use their Knockouts division with some actually good wrestlers and not DIVA's! The WWE ain't got nothing on TNA as far as women wrestlers go!!!
 
I enjoy watching the Divas before they were known as Divas (like watching the 2 out of 3 falls womans tag team titles that is on the Royal Rumble from 1988). And I agree with you guys that Trish/Lita were probably the best for this decade.
 
I'm not gonna give a diplomatic answer here, as much as I wish I could. I've said this before and I'll say it again, I only like the women because of their sex appeal, straight up. As fucked up as that may sound, I'm being honest. The big tits, perfect asses, and symmetrical faces distract me from what they do in the ring. I enjoy action, I get that with wrestlers. I enjoy good writing, I get that with storylines. I enjoy sex, and I get that with the divas.

correct....and I think most people do....
but watching Kelly Kelly, Jillian, Rosa Mendes and Alicia Fox ackwardly jump around and scream when they hit each other is not entertaining at all....
I don't care how good looking they are....those 4 should be managers and not wrestling in the ring....
Like the tag match this past monday was a complete waste of time....they don't belong on RAW....

Mickie,Gail Man Face, Beth, Melina, Maryse and Natalya can actually wrestle and we've seen some decent matches from them...
Trish and Beth and Melina have had good 1v1 matches in the past that are entertaining and they are still good looking chicks...


I also agree that TNA has much better wrestlers....
Roxxi was awesome....but no more....

Taylor Rain is very good
Kong is a good wrestler and very athletic for her size
Cheerleader Melissa/Saheed is awesome and needs to start wrestling more
Tara is good as we know and have seen for years
The Beautiful People are okay, more of their sexy group who aren't that good like most of the Divas....
 
As a female in hopes of becoming a wrestler it is a shame the WWE under uses their female talent. If I was asked right now what company TNA or WWE would I join hands down right now it would be TNA. To me there is the real competition and the real talent. Ever since Trish and Lita left there is nothing going for these diva's. I mean we have Eve pinning Natalya? come on everybody knows if it was a free ending Natalya would have owned Eve. It's a shame and I hope Vince realizes what he's doing and fixes it.
 
I think there are a few really good womens wrestlers - Mickie, Beth, and Gail Kim. That is pretty much the list right there. I think that the level of womens talent has definetly decreased over the last few years. Women like Chyna, Trish, Lita, and Victoria are better than pretty much ever diva today.

However, the WWE doesn't really care about the diva's division that much, so it doesn't matter. Face the facts, the divas are nothing more than sex objects in today's WWE. Even Lawler only comments on how hot they are during the entire matches. That's the way it's been for awhile now and I don't think it's going to change in the near future. How else could you explain how Rosa Mendes is on TV every week while we haven't seen the Glamazon in months?
 
Let's debunk a myth here. TNA Women are NOT better wrestlers than WWE women. In fact, a good percentage of them were and are WWE castoffs (ones that were in development but couldn't cut the mustard). I also find it amusing that there's a love affair for the wrestling of Awesome Kong. If she was a male (which she actually might be), she would be the exact type like Big Show, Khali, Kane, that everyone seems to be bored by. However, since she's a woman, we are in awe that they let one that looks like that wrestle. Quite honestly she's limited in what she does and puts on just as entertaining a match and you might see from Beth Phoenix.

The one thing TNA does do is give their Knockouts mic time to develop feuds and stables of women. It shows more focus on the division and even if you are someone like Madison Rayne who wouldn't be in the title hunt, you are part of a stable and thus can have stories based on that. Think about this, Mideon was useless in the WWE for the most part, but he was on TV every week with the Ministry. Being in stables helps people get over. Right now, the ever improving Eve fighting Natalya is great because their respective teams are feuding and thus, them fighting makes sense. No titles, just bragging rights for the team. That's a FEUD! Sometimes feuds involve a title, but not always. If there becomes more of that, I think you'll see that the WWE Divas and TNA Knockouts are about even talentwise. Some great, others not so much.

As for whether we are "lowering our standards"-NO. I think the top divas today like Mickie, Beth, Melina, etc. could match up with the top divas of any era. In my life I've seen Alundra Blaze who was awesome, then Sable and Jaqueline brought back the women's title and Sable was probably the best diva i've seen and not just because of them implants. She wrestled quite well and without her, you have no Victoria, Trish, and Lita. Maybe Lita because she wrestled independents and is the female Jeff Hardy. However, for modern divas, there are a few that take us based on their looks and ability, but comparing them is like comparing Hogan, Austin, The Rock, and John Cena. For their own times, their respective styles worked and they became the best. We can always argue who the best was and is and everyone will have a different opinion, but I don't think it's a dead given taht today's women are somehow the worst ever. In fact, I think there's more GOOD women wreslters today than ever before but because of that, writers struggle to find stories for them all so we just see a title feud and not much else. Perhaps that will change and that's the one thing WWE should look at TNA for: utilization. But I would NEVER say the talent pool is that uneven.
 
Yes some of the divas are hot Kelly Kelly Maryse etc. But like a previous poster said I don't watch wrestling for them they are not any good their matches are all the same with some hair pulling and screaming.

They should trim the divas roster down to a smaller number somewhere between 5-10 divas and scrap the divas championship keep the Womens and then have it defended on all brands. The brand extension is all but dead anyways and if people outrage over not getting enough of their fill of the sexiest women on televison then I suggest a playboy.
 
Thing is, they DO have some decent Diva's, but it seems everyyy match is a good wrestling diva like say last week natalya vs eve (eve winning). I mean, just like most things in life, you can only do so much with what they give ya! Now I'm high up on Natalya for sure, that 1st week she locked on that sharpshooter it gave me chills, i mean Neidhart's daughter come on!!! lol Then you got Beth, Gail Kim, Melina, Mickie James... But with them good diva's there are equally the bad ones, and WWE seems to love to put the best with the absolute horrible ones... very sad
 
As an avid women's division fan... I am going to say that the statement "There is not one good wrestler in the WWE's women's division" is false. However, in respect of the terms "we are lowering our standards," I still believe the statement is false, yet a few diva's are eliminated from my list of actual wrestlers. Let me show you who the WWE have who are in the same league as Trish & Lita:

Mickie James: One of the very few women in the WWE that actually has a moveset that can be performed without repetition in lengthy matches. She has adopted many upon many moves that can be legitimately can be considered a finisher or knockout move [the back spinning kick, the standing tornado DDT]. Not many diva's actually have finishers that look like you actually finished them off. Come to think of it, many male competitors have actually used finishers that in real life would do crap. I still dont understand how a leg drop or an elbow drop [excluding people like Andre] could finish off your opponent.

When she had the old psycho character of hers, she performed very well in perfecting the storyline between her & Trish. Oh, and she was trusted to actually be given this long fued with the one of the best in the division. She immediately got involved in this storyline when she debuted in the WWE.

And, though I dont know how much credibility there is for this, but she has had a history with competing against the male competitors. In TNA, she is the only female thus far to compete in Clockwork Orange House of Fun match, twice & competed in the OCW Television Championship Tournament [a male championship]. This paragraph can or cannot be added to the argument if you feel this does/does not help.

Beth Phoenix: Quite simply put, this era's Chyna. She may have a lot less muscle & doesn't compete in the male division frequently, she still can wrestle. Yes her moves are based on a power moveset, but at least she is a lot more agile than most of the other superstars that require a power moveset. She has been in bad booking recently & has recieved a major injury at the very start of her first run in the WWE, but when you see her go to the ring, you know she is going to deliver [or at the very least carry the match]. And speaking of carrying, unless she is up against the likes of mickie james, who is the one in charge in the ring? If I were to create a platoon for the USMC & all I had to choose was the WWE Diva's, Beth would be the Sarge hands down.

Natalya Neidhart: The first ever 3rd-generation wrestler being trained within the realm known as Stu Hart's Dungeon who is a female wrestler. Comparing the history of what the Dungeon has produced, that alone is enough to say that Natalya offers something in the ring. From the few matches that I have seen her in, she has done nothing but impressed me. Her match with Michelle McCool for the Diva's Championship gave me hope for Nattie. A technical power wrestler, something you dont see too often... especially for the women's division. Having a power female competitor & a technical female competitor in WWE are rarities in itself. A combination of the two??? Damn gurl.

There are others that I could mention, but they still need some time to work on either their in-ring or personalities at this point. Michelle & Maryse are about to break through the glass ceiling here. Melina, Gail Kim & Burchill are coming along nicely. Kelly isnt too far behind...

Yes I can see why standards have been lowered but remember, the WWE is in a state of rebuilding. Very soon we shall see most of the diva's in WWE become good, if not, great wrestlers. Six are close, the rest need experience & time to develop if they are to take their job seriously. However, I do believe Layla should not be on the roster at all as she is pointless. Maybe a manager/valet role, but I doubt it. Keep Maria as an interviewer or fashion/costume designer for the women.
 
I'm not gonna give a diplomatic answer here, as much as I wish I could. I've said this before and I'll say it again, I only like the women because of their sex appeal, straight up. As fucked up as that may sound, I'm being honest. The big tits, perfect asses, and symmetrical faces distract me from what they do in the ring. I enjoy action, I get that with wrestlers. I enjoy good writing, I get that with storylines. I enjoy sex, and I get that with the divas.

Jeter123...I think you may be making up that line about enjoying sex with the divas......
 
I'm not trying to be sexist or anything, but women wrestling has never been very good. It's not like this is a new development. I don't think I've ever seen a womens match that I thought was a great wrestling match. There have been some women over the years like Chyna, Trish, Lita, Gail Kim, and a few others that put on some good matches but nothing overly impressive.

Right now the divas are a lot more about looks and less about actually ability so the matches are worse then usual, but when I'm watching a divas match I'm not watching it for the wrestling. I'm watching it to see beautiful women in tight, skimpy outfits have a cat fight. It sounds bad but I'd rather see that then see two ugly chicks have a decent wrestling match. If you can combine looks with wrestling ability then you get the best of both worlds like we had with divas like Trish and Lita. However, at the end of the day even their matches weren't breathtaking by any means so I'm fine with what we have now.
 
I also really hope something can be done about the WWE Divas division, women can play a huge part in WWE's viewers and they can also be very entertaining. But I'm not going to sit here and slam Kelly Kelly and Maryse because they're improving greatly and to say they "suck" would just be ignorant of me.
 
I'll just keep it short and simple. the problem with the womens division is mostly bad writing for a more in depth view on that opinion its already been posted by some else on this thread in a better way than I could phrase it.
Q: more than a 2 star womens match?
A: Mickie v.s. Trish wrestlemania (22?) not necessarily the most recent one but that match stands out to me is the best I can remember in that division it was an all around good match, and the writing helped it matter to fans. watch the match You probably haven't seen a crowd so into a womens match for the actual wrestling like they were for that match. at least a 3 star match.
 
This is a strange subject. WWE has all those good looking girls that can't really wrestle, but are enjoyed by the male audience. What are they supposed to do with those girls? Put them in cages and make them dance like glorified Nitro girls? WWE is going PG, and I don't think the women would like that very much. They can't have them all as backstage interviewers, there's only so many of them one show can have.
I say, let them wrestle. Because it means the good women wrestlers get to wrestle too.
I mean, just look at the attitude era. There wre pretty much no real womens matches. They were all gimmick matches involving the divas showing off their body in some way. Or divas matches were used to progress angles that involved the male wrestlers (e.g. Stephanie Mcmahon's title reign). Even the good female wrestlers were just seen as eye candy. People didn't even know Trish had any talent because she spent most of her time just being a hot manager chick. It's not until WWE let all the female wrestlers wrestle, bad and good, that we got to see which women actually could wrestle, if that makes sense. Seriously, Trish came into the WWE in 2000, but it was 2002 before we realised she could really wrestle cause it wasn't until around the Invasion that WWE started taking women's matches more seriously. By 2002, people weren't just cheering for Trish because she was hot, they were cheering for her because she could wrestle too.
So if seeing the good women's wrestlers means we have to sit through the bad ones, then I don't mind because I do actually enjoy women's matches when they involve Beth Phoenix or Mickie James.
 
I'll just keep it short and simple. the problem with the womens division is mostly bad writing for a more in depth view on that opinion its already been posted by some else on this thread in a better way than I could phrase it.
Q: more than a 2 star womens match?
A: Mickie v.s. Trish wrestlemania (22?) not necessarily the most recent one but that match stands out to me is the best I can remember in that division it was an all around good match, and the writing helped it matter to fans. watch the match You probably haven't seen a crowd so into a womens match for the actual wrestling like they were for that match. at least a 3 star match.

i really really agree with you i was @ wrestlemania 22 and the crowd went completely nuts for this match which made they wrestling look even better and made the match seem alot better than wat it was when the last time we seen a diva feud that was that good cumulate into a pretty good match as far as matches with out feuds i think katie lea and mickie james match back @ night of champions in 2008 was it idk i think so but neway i think that match was pretty good just wish the crowd was more into it
 
I honestly beleieve that their are a bunch of Good Divas here today. But WWE just doesn't give them the credit they deserve like Jillan, I think she's one of the best WWE has today. But WWE treats her like crap. She hasn't been on tv since when? months? She's never had a title shot & hasn't won a singles match in over 2 years. WWE's just misusing the divas who can actually wrestle which makes me quite sad. I wish WWE pays attention to all of their divas & give the most deserving ones pushes every now & then. Look at Beth. She came into the WWE dominant & powerful. & now we hardly even see her? WWE needs to do some major fixing with their divas divison. Send almost all of their divas to train for train for about a year. Then we should have a good divison again.
 
Some divas are better then others, but I usually don't pay attention to a diva match or I change the channel until the match is over.

The only real reason I would watch a diva match is for their looks.

No disrespect to the WWE divas though.
 
People keep comparing the Divas to Trish & Lita. Thats their standard. But how good were they really? Compare Trish to Mickie James, and they're very close in my opinion. Trish could work a match better, but Mickie is just as good with all the moves. Beth Phoenix can do everything in the ring, no doubt about that.

I think we're not lowering our standards, but the standard of women's wrestling is lower than it was years ago. We still have the same standards, but we're adapting them to fit in with today's standards.
 
Yep yep, gotta agree with you there Nate. Well even though WWE has a really crappy womens division, I don't think womens wrestling is dead, look at TNA for example. They have a very healthy womens division, some how they managed through the loss of Gail Kim. But yeah TNA knockouts mostly have solid matches, plus they are sexy (most of them). Does any one know what happen to Christy Hemme though?
 

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