Are Title Reigns a Good Way to Debut?

[IrishCanadian25]

Over the course of the past few days, the executive board of the Santino Marella fan-a-club have been examining a question we have not yet heard brought up - whether or not it is a good idea for debuting professional wrestlers to kick off their careers by winning a championship. We thought of 4 in the past 15 years.

1. Christian debuts winning the Light-Heavyweight Title. One of Gangrel's vampiric brood members, this young kid came in and, in his first major WWE match, defeated Taka Michi-no-job for the Light Heavyweight Title. The title itself wasn't worth much weight. It was rarely defended, and when it was it usually changed hands. Dean Malenko was a 2-time champion, and many of the stars who held this belt wen on to - disappoint. (see: Essa Rios, Scotty 2 Hotty) Christian, on the other hand? Well, he did ok.

2. Gail Kim debuts winning the Women's Title. I had forgotten that this was in her debut, a women's battle royal. Thanks justinsayne, for pointing it out. This hyped-up spot monkey (thank you Sly) came in and capitalized on the fact nobody knew who the hell she was - and she won the Women's belt. Duing her title defenses, she would injury herself and others more than Mark Henry, but as she is currently the TNA Knockout Champion, we'd have to see her as a success.

3. Carlito beats John Cena for the U.S. Title in his debut. A really strange circumstance on Smackdown, "Carlito Caribbean Cool" shows up with a recycled Razor Ramon gimmick and beats up-and-comer John Cena for the spinny US Title. With his run-in-buddy Jesus (I always thought he ran with Shawn Michaels) helping, Carlito's first match was also his first win, and his first tatse of mid-card gold. Now, not long after, Carlito is a former US and IC champ, but has never climbed out of the mid-card ranks, and many wonder if the release of Chris Masters is a harbinger of things to come for the apple man.

4. Santino defeats Umaga for the Intercontinental Title. This turn of events sparked massive debate on the boards, asking what the WWE was doing with the Intercontinental Belt. Umaga, then champion, was waging war with Bobby Lashley, thanks in part to the Vince McMahon / Donald Trump saga. When Vince picked Santino out of the crowd to be dismantled by Umaga, Lashley showed up and lent a hand. The result? The Milan Miracle. A clean faced kid from "Italy" who was in the right place at the right time. Wile the jury is still out with him, he did get the Stone Cold Beer Truck wet-down not a year after his debut - so he's attracting attention. And he has a fan-a-club.

What I want to know is - Debut Title Reigns - Good Call or Bad Call?

 

[TheOneBigWill]

In my personal opinion on this matter. I think it could go either way. And I'll explain, starting with your list.

1. Christian's Debut: Okay, so his debut was against the Light Heavyweight Champion, Taka. A Championship that had previously almost single-handedly flushed itself down the drain, because W.W.F./E. has & likely will never, know how to work with smaller, more talented, athletes.

In my opinion, this would be considered a GREAT CALL, because it gave new life to the Championship that had been fading out of the lime-light, & it gave a debuting star, who'd later become a World Champion, the ability to showcase his talent on a weekly basis, via defending the Championship. (although, he didn't defend it as much, & ultimately lost it to Gill-berg - besides the point)

2. Gail Kim's Debut: This would be the instant opposite, in other words. BAD CALL! I say this, because at the time.. I believe Molly Holly, or Trish Stratus was the Women's Champion. Even if they weren't, I still claim this as a bad call.. because noone knew if she'd "sell" to the fans. She didn't have the "diva-beauty" that most W.W.F./E. fans wanted.. & she did have a technical style all her own, but again.. most W.W.F./E. fans want sex appeal, not ring awareness.

So, Gail Kim, while a great athlete who turned out okay & deserves to be the T.N.A. Knockout's Champion.. was NOT in the right place, at the right time, for winning the W.W.F./E. Women's Championship & they should've made her earn it.. as it wasn't but a couple weeks later, she dropped it to Molly Holly, who then threatened her very life if she didn't join her. (bad storyline for Kim)

3. Carlito's Debut: Now, we go to the in-between call situation. This could've been considered a good call/bad call sort of issue.. & this is why.

You have John Cena, who hadn't been U.S. Champion all that long, & just won it from Booker T. if I remember correctly, only to turn around & have him drop it to a debuting new comer, whos gimmick wasn't 100% sellable, or fan worthy. This was a long shot, that W.W.E. took & to me, it worked out in the beginning, but went stale after not giving Carlito a proper push as a legit Champion.

They stuck him with a body guard, only to then have Carlito get injured, so he ultimately had to drop the Championship & on top of everything else, it went right back to Cena.. which made pretty much no sense, & basically it'll only make the fans believe that the Championship never should've switched hands to begin with. So, this is an in-between call, because I liked them giving him the Championship upon his debut.. but hated it after they never went anywhere solid with him AS the Champion.

4. Santino's Debut: This is where I have to side away from being a fan-a-club member.. because I thought this was a BAD CALL! The only reason Santino received this Championship was because it made Bobby Lashley look good, over Umaga.. & it gave the hometown something to blow up about.

Santino's in-ring skills have still not come along nicely enough for him to be considered Championship material. While he has some of a technical style, the M.M.A. stuff isn't for the W.W.E. -- Furthermore, what pissed me off the most about Santino's Championship run, was that similar to Carlito, they never went anywhere with it. They ran him as the underdog Champion, who kept getting fluke pins over everyone he won against.

Thats not what Santino's worthy of. He deserves a proper finisher, he deserves a better push.. & the man HAS the mic. skill to be a true great in the company, if they'd only find him some better ring gear, & a damn finishing move that makes you stand up & say.. "Hot-a-damn! He just opened'a can of ass-a-whip on him!"

 

[Y 2 Jake]

Short answer: It depends what they do with them after.

Considering they didn't really do much with the above superstars then no.

Carlito injured himself not long after he made his debut. So that might have hurt his momentum. Or it could have been the fact that his first storyline was stupid. Who did stab Cena ? Maybe it would have worked better if he hadn't been fed to Cena upon his return.

Santino's debut helped nobody. If Santino had won the title then turned heel straight away, then maybe it would have worked. Maybe have him annoy Lashley, turn, then the McMahons could have given Marella the rub. But they didn't. they made him look like a fool. If his current gimmick doesn't last he'll be one of those people that WWE Magazine take the piss out of.

Women wrestlers in WWE get little reaction as it is. So somebody who the fans don't know isn't going to succede.

As for Christian I don't really remember the title win. But that title was worthless after the initaial tornament to crown the first champ. And Christian didn't do nothing for a year after winning it.

 

[Derf]

I only saw Carlito and Santino debut, so i can only comment on them.

Carlito, when he debuted, I though had the potential to be a great midcarder. Until he got hurt. Once he got hurt, I started to doubt him, but unlike most wrestlers with injuries, Carlito didn't go to the sidelines. Instead, he had a feud with Teddy Long, and I think that saved alot of cred for him. So in his case, I think it all worked out for the better. For a year, that is, when he dropped completely.

Santino, I didn't know what to think when it happened. I knew it was a plant, and I didn't want to make a judgement call until I saw him against someone his own size. And when I did, I was disapointed. But it's been less than a year for him, and he's red hot on the mic, so he's still got a future. As for Carlito, I say to him the ame as Gail Kim and Christian. See you as a Champ in TNA in the near future!

 

[AnthonyMango/NoFate007]

I never thought an immediate title reign was a good idea. Oddly enough, I feel it kind of ruins the credibility they would bring to the table - especially a "monster" - which is what they're trying to do. For instance, if Khali would've came onto the spot and immediately become the World Heavyweight Champion, I'd go "oh so he's got the jobber aura. Well, give him a month and the Undertaker will beat him and we'll never hear of him again". Too strong a FORCED debut, to me, is a dangerous route. The best to do is to send them out against someone who isn't a jobber but at the same time isn't one of the top guys. If I was debuting Mr. Kennedy at the moment, I would put him up against someone like Carlito, who is established enough that a loss would mean something, but it wouldn't seem like a punishment, you know what I mean? All in all, though, I think its up to the particular wrestler, because if they have good enough mic skills, they'll make an impression, or if the story itself is good enough (ala Kane's debut) then that'll carry them. Just bringing in some newcomer and trying to make us think he's the next greatest thing never works for me.

 

[OutsiderDX]

Title debuts are a uncreative way to push a guy. I actually find it insulting. Most of the wrestling fans left are smart to the business, and know the only purpose to debuting with a title is to give a undeserving wrestler a push.

I suppose i wouldn't mind, if the title shot had a reasonable storyline to it. It made the least bit of sense. Concerning the Gail Kim title, that was actually realistic, cause i do believe she won it in a battle royal... which makes it plausible to win a title.

Title debuts are just unimaginative and lazy by the writers... and actually have a negative effect. The fans will reject the guy, like i do believe they strarted to with both Gail Kim, and Santino.

The WWE always said the reason the Austin/McMahon fued worked was because the fans could easily relate to a man standing up to his boss. The fans / people can relate with more ease, a man who works hard for his title, and not one who is given it. They will respect that wrestler more

 

[justinsayne]

I have to say that it's a horriable idea to just give a debuting star a title right off the bat, in most cases it's completly unrealistic and not only insulting to the fans but insulting to the other wrestlers in the back that work their asses off to get a shot at the title and a push, and it never ever seems to work, out of the four people listed, Carlito, Santino, Gail Kim, & Chirstan, only one of them ever had any thing close to success in WWE, and that was Christian, and his success was just basically him being at the top of the mid-card until he decided he had enough and went to TNA, where he gained his real success, so yeah title reign debuts are a bad idea IMO

 

[Evan Snow-Wolf]

Most of the time its a bad idea. I can't think of a time when it really was a good idea. I always hated monster pushes, and that's why I to this day cannot think of a single day, single moment ever where I liked Brock Lesnar.

I can't see how people debuting with title wins don't anger the locker room. I'd be upset if someone came into my work tomorrow and got instantly promoted over me.

Christian turned out really well. A shame he hurt himself in that steel cage match against Jericho.

Santino... meh. I just am not feeling him.

Carlito I liked, and still like... I just feel like he is stuck in creative limbo.

I hate Gail Kim. No.. I loathe her. Despise? I need a word worse than despise. Hmm. Maybe I need to make up a word for my hatred.

 

[Kasey]

Having a title won during a debut by an unknown commodity is a completely wrong move, to me. It invalidates the current title holder and places the belt on someone who may not even be over yet.

Even wrestlers like The Rock had trouble just holding a belt and keeping the audience from turning on him because he hadn't ironed out his gimmick yet and found his sea-legs, so to speak (and that wasn't even in his debut). I'm all for keeping some serious esteem around a title and making only the proven commodities the ones who hold the belt. It not only gives the title matches more esteem, but it makes sure that a division isn't crippled due to a potential lemon holding the strap. Having a title around the waste of someone who is over is the only way to fly, if you ask me. You don't want to have to hope that the wrestler in question gets over...while you bet the division and the title's credibility in the same goddamn process.

In all of the cases listed by Irish up at the top here, NONE of them proved fruitful or beneficial to either the division or the wrestlers who won the belt.

No one gave a shit about Christian until he and Edge found some personality and tried to break a leg doing some crazy ass ladder matches (flash photography, anyone?). Decisions like this were the reason the juniors were never used to their fullest in Stamford and to this day that title in any incarnation has been an asswipe. The name "McMahon" and the phrase "good cruiserweight wrestling" is about as oxymoronic as you can fucking get, and this title change was no exception. Ask the average fan what Christian's first belt was in the WWF, and they'd be hard pressed to tell you. Besides, that entire scene was a joke because McMahon created a belt for a non-existent division built around one guy. When you have to import Sasuke to give someone for Taka to beat, because no one else is on your payroll worth a shit, then maybe it's time to rethink whether or not to even have a belt at all?

Gail Kim's was the same thing. Even as soon as the next week, the belt had been devalued further than before and they'd dug themselves a hole by having her wear it.

Carlito is still not what I'd consider upper echelon at the moment in terms of controlling a crowd. He's hit and miss at times. Although he had a great lead-in with the vignettes, that doesn't translate for shit in terms of what he did once he came out of the curtains. He can get people to hate him, but his matches with Cena were about as action-packed as watching a couple of sloths hump (no thanks to either of them). The Intercontinental Title used to mean something because it was used only generally by over wrestlers who were on a roll and being groomed for a shot at the big tamale. It definitely didn't need to be used as a litmus test for a fucking rookie.

Santino's debut helped about as much as any of the others. At least Umaga had an air of fear about him in terms of who he could and couldn't beat, so that at least brought stability to the belt. That title change not only derailed his gimmick, but it also was a missed opportunity for Bobby Lashley's boring ass to at least get a title out of the Wrestlemania fiasco. This way, there could've been something substantial to be had out of that goddamn circus (which in all honesty should've been avoided in the first place).

Instead of upping the divisions, these ramshackle changes served no other purpose than to sabotage them. Shitty, shitty booking.

 

[shadowfalcon]

A debut title win is a horrible move on any part. I watched the carlito, santino, and Gail Kim debut title wins and after watching them it just felt like the title lost its value. A title represents a superstars achivments, dedication, wether fans like or dislike them, and their overall wrestling ability(performance). To give a debuting star wether their an established wrestler or new to the buissness wrestler is a disgrace to all those who won the title after years or even months of effort. Even though sometimes it works most of the time it dosent. All of us remember the infamus finger poke of death Hogan-Nash which did tremendous damage to the crediability to the WCW hevayweight Title. It just feels the same to me.

 

[Father:_Polley]

Unless it's a draft in from another company winning straight away, i don't see the debut title win doing any good because the wrestler isn't establish and it'l take a while to get behind them which leads to dead matches. give them a month or so then the crowd can get behind or against them and the match has more value.
As for the LHC, it was a nothing belt that was nothin but an imitation cruiserweight title in a company with very few cruiserweights.
Carlito's debut was ok, he got heel heat by cheating to win it, but the injury ruined everything.
Santino wasn't given the chance to shine - no finisher, bad push and wasn't on the mic as much. now he's getting better and needs some ringtime where he wins!!!

She didn't have the "diva-beauty" that most W.W.F./E. fans wanted

= she hadnt had a boob job. gail kim is gorgeous

 

[HBK-aholic]

Not commenting on individual reigns, but as a whole, I'd have to say I think giving debuting stars a championship run isn't a good idea. I disagree with someone only recently entering it and somehow ending up with a championship. Those stars usually end up as nothing anyway.

The wrestlers who debut and get are championship are almost always undeserving of that title, no matter which title it is. They haven't been there long enough to have a proper feud or any matches. This means their win of the title would be pretty much worthless anyway, as it would have just been out of the blue without a feud or lead up.

It also insults the other starts on the roster, who have been working in the WWE for years maybe and still not been able to hold that championship. I don't think it's fair, and I don't think it sets the right examples to fans or other wrestlers. It takes away from the presitge of the belt, and when you look at wrestlers who worked hard to win these titles, it makes their efforts seem worthless.

Also, a new wrestler, will they really have the crowd behind them.against them enough to have a proper reign? Is it not smarter for them to establish themselves, their gimmick and their fanbase first, before heading staright into gold? Some would say it's even harder for those wrestlers, as they automatically wou;d have people like us on the internet questioning their abilities and whether they were deserving of the reign.

 

[Kliq]

Absolutely not! I don't even like titles to be put on someone based on fan reaction. I believe championships should be soley used to thank a superstar who has been a big draw and has done a lot to further themselves and the business.

Someone who makes their way into the company and gets the title by any means shows that no one else on the roster already deserved the belt, and that can be a very bad thing. It basically downsizes the rest of the contenders and puts down the title as nothing more than a welcome mat for someone the company would like to get over, but not use a decent storyline or actually work to do it.

 

[Agrex]

No, this is definately not a good way for a wrestler to debut. The title loses alot of credibilty when a new wrestler wins it in their first match. First of all, that's pushing the wrestler way too fast, way too soon. Let the wrestler work a little bit for the title. Make him wrestle a few matches. Let the fans realise who he is, and actaully get a reaction from them. Then they can give the wrestler a title shot, and possibly let him win, but the wrestler has to work for it.

It's never good to push a wrestler too fast, too soon. Look at Bobby Lashley, he has pushed far too fast, and became overrated, and boring quickly. Most people actually got sick of him. Then look at Santino, all his reign did was make the IC title lose credibility, and make WWE's top monster heel, Umaga (at the time) look weak. His reign got boring, and he got boring. Now he's nothing more than a jobber on RAW.

So, I do not think that debut reigns are a good idea.

 

[Mighty NorCal]

I dont like it at all, and I think it alienates fans if anything, and devalues the belt they win. What value or prestige does a belt have if anyone can just walk in off the "street" (santino) and just take the belt? Not much if u ask me. Having to earn the right to compete for something in the first place, places emphasis and importace on whatever you are fighting for.

The only place I see it being a ok idea, is through a brand jump, with an already established superstar. But a brand new curtain jerker should not ever just take the belt off the current holder. It devalues the belt and shows the company doesnt have a lot of faith in the current champion, by basically saying "this brand new guy who is 0% over at the moment can run with this title more strongly than you" which doesnt help. Its like mortaging prestige. And it has devalued the IC and tag belts beyond recognition now.

 

[Rated K for Kennedy... Kennedy!]

Personally I agree with Shawn Michael's comment from his book
"In my opinion a title doesnt make a man, a man makes the title, so I didn't see the European Title as a step down, I saw it as a chance to elevate the status of the title"

Can't remember the last time I've seen a title be elevated in WWE, as soon as the title holder gets hot (see Jeff Hardy) they push him to the next level without dealing with his current belt. I jsut don't think WWE care about the titles any more, Santino is a great talent and making massive strides but his title reign made me laugh out loud and I actually stopped watching RAW and reading spoilers for a month when it happened!

Guys should work their way up, like there used to be a whole league of guys fighting for the IC Title, eg Ken Shamrock, Test, Triple H, Owen Hart, Bulldog, X-Pac etc, all within the same sorta time-frame. Title defenses should be MANDATORY within 30 days!