FromTheSouth
You don't want it with me.
I am going to try to do this without taking a side, but I will, and you know what side it will be. So, I guess what I should say is, I will try to do this without much venom.
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Christmas is most people's favorite time of year. The themes of family, togetherness, good will amongst men, giving, and caring are universal ideas that are involved with any definition of a utopian society. Christmastime is the closest we get in our global community to utopia, so it is a treasured time of year. The problem is that this wonderful season has become a battleground between two distinct voting blocs in America. The disenfranchised secular progressives, who feel that this time of togetherness drives a wedge between the believers and nonbelievers, seem to want to battle with conservative Christians, who feel that taking away the joy of this time of year is an act of aggression towards to their beliefs. Basically, both sides feel that the other is forcing their beliefs upon their opponent. And, to tell you the truth, they are. Both sides are so stubborn that meaning of this joyous time of year is lost upon everyone. Whether you make it a religious deal, or just an excuse to put aside the stresses of an entire year and relax with those you care about and exchange gifts and tidings of good cheer, compromise has gone completely out the window in favor of good ole partisan politics. That is a shame, as this season is a time of year that usually benefits charities and the destitute, but instead those donations are going to the ACLU to fight against Christmas displays in the park.
The War on Christmas can be broken down into two distinct arenas of battle. The public display battle rages on about what can be put in public areas of cities to mark the season. Cities used to light Christmas trees and decorate downtown. It was a beautiful display, but for some reason, people are offended by some lights wrapped around light poles. The other arena of battle is in retail stores. Newspaper ads, even greetings in stores, have gone from non-issues to major points of contention. I grew up Jewish, still cling to some of those roots, and have never, ever, been offended by someone telling me Merry Christmas, and am still perplexed by how some can be offended by being wished well. We will examine both of these battlefields, but will have to remember, that the ultimate battlefield will never be settled.
[YOUTUBE]CjY_uSSncQw[/YOUTUBE]
OK, that was a bad joke, but I tried to insert a little bit of levity into an issue that Bill O'Reilly tells me is serious.
Speaking of Bill O, I think the idea that Christmas is under attack can be traced back to him. In 2004, he and Sean Hannity (who I know most of you are going to call idiots, but they are filthy stinking rich and respected commentators who draw viewers by the millions, so I am going with the public here. "But FTS, the public are stupid, and will agree with anything sensationalized, no matter how wrong the content is" I agree, they voted for Obama.)
Let's examine this rationally for a moment. Correlation does not equal causation. Just because Europe took the Christ out of Christmas, that does not mean that's the reason that narcotics are legal, prostitution is legal, and the youth are out of control. That being said, it is religious groups the suppress narcotics. It is the religious groups that keep prostitution illegal. Whether you think either should be legal is matter of personal opinion. The idea of The War on Christmas being the battleground for the liberalizing of society isn't that much of a stretch. The time of year when people are most religious being tamped down could quite possibly stretch out for the rest of the year. If you keep the Christians down, you can keep down the opposition to a secular progressive agenda. Now, I do not necessarily think that adults should be told what to put into their bodies or put their bodies into, but, in the case of drugs, when you make something available to adults, you make it accessible to children. Beyond marijauna, there really aren't many benefits to drugs, beyond opening your mind, which isn't a good enough reason in my mind to make them easier to get for children. OMG, Who will think of the children is a stupid argument. I disagree. No one is thinking of the children in today's society. Kids are exposed to sex, violence, drugs - immoral behavior is not only shown to them, but glamorized. There needs to be some kind of example to kids to live some kind of value based life. If a parents wants his kids to be drug addicted dropouts, then the parents can go that route. Taking God our of everyone's life is the first stop. I'm not saying that people who live Godless lives are immoral serial killers. I'm not contending that religious people are without fault either. All I am saying is that on balance, some kind of religious indoctrination is not a bad thing, in moderation. I may not believe in Jesus, but I do believe in his message (and I too anoint myself with cannabis). This is where everyone tells me that religion justified the crusades! It is also where I respond with, "Thank you 1157 AD, but religion was also used to justify ending the Holocaust, for most charities, and for comfort." For every ill that has been caused by religion, there are hundreds of positive stories, and using Christmas as a battleground to take religion out of people's lives who want it there is a bit inexcusable to me.
City after city expanded holiday displays to be more inclusive. Menorah were added, mention of Kwanzaa added, Merry Christmas changed to Happy Holidays. That wasn't enough. Now, atheists feel offended that public funds are used to put up some lights and light a big tree. Believe me, I get where they are coming from. But to stop these displays, is that not an endorsement of atheism over theism?
Basically put, the separation of church and state means that the government cannot establish a national religion. It does not mean that religion cannot be involved in any aspect of public life. I do not understand how the National Christmas Tree invokes a requirement to bow in awe of Jesus. For most people, Christmas does not invoke images of baby Jesus in a manger anymore. It invokes images of Santa, Rudolph, and Frost the Snowman. (Frosty is not a parable about Jesus coming to take your soul)
While I was doing research for this thread, I came across a comment from the Opinion Editor of the LSU student newspaper, Reville.
Honestly, putting up Christmas, Hannukah, and Kwanzaa displays does more to bring different cultures together than it does to alienate atheists. These displays do not tell anyone that they are wrong for their displays. If some draws that inference, they are looking for something to complain about. If your life is so empty that you need to try and ruin someone else's favorite time of year, the you truly are a bad person. Most atheists and agnostics, I think, understand what the time of year means. They understand that it is less a religious ceremony, and more a reminder to feel thankful for what we have and give a little of our excess to those who need the help.
To further examine the issue, we must look to retail stores. Retail stores have the most to gain and lose this time of year. Store owners and stockholders should be the most thankful for this time of year. This is the time of year that eleven months of operating at a loss becomes a worthwhile venture. Black Friday is the day that stores ledgers go from red to black, from loss to profit. To that end, department store Santas, Christmas sales, lights, and trees - for years - were placed in stores. Images of happy families and holiday wishes permeated the holiday ads. Now stores across the country are abandoning this tradition for fear of offending people. That's fine, it's their decision as private businesses to do as they wish. It is also the right of consumers to vote with their wallets. I have no problem with this message from Bill O...
I believe that the decision to appeal to everyone is more dangerous for a business in that it risks alienating a vast majority of the population.
That being said, I disagree with O'Reilly and Gibson here. The vast majority of people would shop at the store that offers the cheapest deal even if they had a display of Jesus having sex with ****es and reading The Satanic Bible while dropping ecstasy and doing cocaine off of Stalin's penis. They are going to save that dollar on a $1500 television set. The holiday is not longer about Jesus for the majority of people. It may be about his message of loving thy neighbor and giving of oneself, but, except for the hours between 8 am and 10 am spent at church on Christmas morning, the holiday is about charity and commercialism. The irony of this dichotomy is not lost on me at all.
In case you were wondering, The American Family Association maintains a list of major retailers and their advertising for this time of year.
http://www.afa.net/christmasban.asp
The funny thing here is that Best Buy refuses to use Christmas in their advertising, but wishes everyone a happy obscure Muslim holiday.
http://www.snopes.com/politics/christmas/bestbuy2009.asp
Best Buy maintains that there will be Happy Hannukah and Merry Christmas ads as well. We will see.
The point of this is that stores are so intimidated by a small minority of people who are actually offended by this message that they refuse to acknowledge the elephant in the room, possibly to their own detriment.
Let me draw a conclusion for you. I think the atheist uproar over public displays is a bit much. Not endorsing a religion is different than establishing a national religion. No one tells anyone they have to worship the city's Christmas Tree or lay prostrate in honor of the menorah. They are displays that pay tribute to the limited American culture that exists. These are not symbols that tell us to honor Jesus, they are symbols to remind us that we all live together, and tolerance and good will should reign year round, not just for two weeks in December. I understand the complaint, I just disagree with it. The retail industry I take the opposite stance on. Retail stores are trying to be inclusive. They run the risk of alienating the majority of people, but they do so at their expense. Like I said, most people are looking for the best deal, not the most spirit, and the all mighty dollar is all we are worshiping here in America.
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Christmas is most people's favorite time of year. The themes of family, togetherness, good will amongst men, giving, and caring are universal ideas that are involved with any definition of a utopian society. Christmastime is the closest we get in our global community to utopia, so it is a treasured time of year. The problem is that this wonderful season has become a battleground between two distinct voting blocs in America. The disenfranchised secular progressives, who feel that this time of togetherness drives a wedge between the believers and nonbelievers, seem to want to battle with conservative Christians, who feel that taking away the joy of this time of year is an act of aggression towards to their beliefs. Basically, both sides feel that the other is forcing their beliefs upon their opponent. And, to tell you the truth, they are. Both sides are so stubborn that meaning of this joyous time of year is lost upon everyone. Whether you make it a religious deal, or just an excuse to put aside the stresses of an entire year and relax with those you care about and exchange gifts and tidings of good cheer, compromise has gone completely out the window in favor of good ole partisan politics. That is a shame, as this season is a time of year that usually benefits charities and the destitute, but instead those donations are going to the ACLU to fight against Christmas displays in the park.
The War on Christmas can be broken down into two distinct arenas of battle. The public display battle rages on about what can be put in public areas of cities to mark the season. Cities used to light Christmas trees and decorate downtown. It was a beautiful display, but for some reason, people are offended by some lights wrapped around light poles. The other arena of battle is in retail stores. Newspaper ads, even greetings in stores, have gone from non-issues to major points of contention. I grew up Jewish, still cling to some of those roots, and have never, ever, been offended by someone telling me Merry Christmas, and am still perplexed by how some can be offended by being wished well. We will examine both of these battlefields, but will have to remember, that the ultimate battlefield will never be settled.
[YOUTUBE]CjY_uSSncQw[/YOUTUBE]
OK, that was a bad joke, but I tried to insert a little bit of levity into an issue that Bill O'Reilly tells me is serious.
Speaking of Bill O, I think the idea that Christmas is under attack can be traced back to him. In 2004, he and Sean Hannity (who I know most of you are going to call idiots, but they are filthy stinking rich and respected commentators who draw viewers by the millions, so I am going with the public here. "But FTS, the public are stupid, and will agree with anything sensationalized, no matter how wrong the content is" I agree, they voted for Obama.)
Bill O said:
Let's examine this rationally for a moment. Correlation does not equal causation. Just because Europe took the Christ out of Christmas, that does not mean that's the reason that narcotics are legal, prostitution is legal, and the youth are out of control. That being said, it is religious groups the suppress narcotics. It is the religious groups that keep prostitution illegal. Whether you think either should be legal is matter of personal opinion. The idea of The War on Christmas being the battleground for the liberalizing of society isn't that much of a stretch. The time of year when people are most religious being tamped down could quite possibly stretch out for the rest of the year. If you keep the Christians down, you can keep down the opposition to a secular progressive agenda. Now, I do not necessarily think that adults should be told what to put into their bodies or put their bodies into, but, in the case of drugs, when you make something available to adults, you make it accessible to children. Beyond marijauna, there really aren't many benefits to drugs, beyond opening your mind, which isn't a good enough reason in my mind to make them easier to get for children. OMG, Who will think of the children is a stupid argument. I disagree. No one is thinking of the children in today's society. Kids are exposed to sex, violence, drugs - immoral behavior is not only shown to them, but glamorized. There needs to be some kind of example to kids to live some kind of value based life. If a parents wants his kids to be drug addicted dropouts, then the parents can go that route. Taking God our of everyone's life is the first stop. I'm not saying that people who live Godless lives are immoral serial killers. I'm not contending that religious people are without fault either. All I am saying is that on balance, some kind of religious indoctrination is not a bad thing, in moderation. I may not believe in Jesus, but I do believe in his message (and I too anoint myself with cannabis). This is where everyone tells me that religion justified the crusades! It is also where I respond with, "Thank you 1157 AD, but religion was also used to justify ending the Holocaust, for most charities, and for comfort." For every ill that has been caused by religion, there are hundreds of positive stories, and using Christmas as a battleground to take religion out of people's lives who want it there is a bit inexcusable to me.
City after city expanded holiday displays to be more inclusive. Menorah were added, mention of Kwanzaa added, Merry Christmas changed to Happy Holidays. That wasn't enough. Now, atheists feel offended that public funds are used to put up some lights and light a big tree. Believe me, I get where they are coming from. But to stop these displays, is that not an endorsement of atheism over theism?
Basically put, the separation of church and state means that the government cannot establish a national religion. It does not mean that religion cannot be involved in any aspect of public life. I do not understand how the National Christmas Tree invokes a requirement to bow in awe of Jesus. For most people, Christmas does not invoke images of baby Jesus in a manger anymore. It invokes images of Santa, Rudolph, and Frost the Snowman. (Frosty is not a parable about Jesus coming to take your soul)
While I was doing research for this thread, I came across a comment from the Opinion Editor of the LSU student newspaper, Reville.
Matthew Albright said:
Honestly, putting up Christmas, Hannukah, and Kwanzaa displays does more to bring different cultures together than it does to alienate atheists. These displays do not tell anyone that they are wrong for their displays. If some draws that inference, they are looking for something to complain about. If your life is so empty that you need to try and ruin someone else's favorite time of year, the you truly are a bad person. Most atheists and agnostics, I think, understand what the time of year means. They understand that it is less a religious ceremony, and more a reminder to feel thankful for what we have and give a little of our excess to those who need the help.
To further examine the issue, we must look to retail stores. Retail stores have the most to gain and lose this time of year. Store owners and stockholders should be the most thankful for this time of year. This is the time of year that eleven months of operating at a loss becomes a worthwhile venture. Black Friday is the day that stores ledgers go from red to black, from loss to profit. To that end, department store Santas, Christmas sales, lights, and trees - for years - were placed in stores. Images of happy families and holiday wishes permeated the holiday ads. Now stores across the country are abandoning this tradition for fear of offending people. That's fine, it's their decision as private businesses to do as they wish. It is also the right of consumers to vote with their wallets. I have no problem with this message from Bill O...
O'Reilly said:
I believe that the decision to appeal to everyone is more dangerous for a business in that it risks alienating a vast majority of the population.
That being said, I disagree with O'Reilly and Gibson here. The vast majority of people would shop at the store that offers the cheapest deal even if they had a display of Jesus having sex with ****es and reading The Satanic Bible while dropping ecstasy and doing cocaine off of Stalin's penis. They are going to save that dollar on a $1500 television set. The holiday is not longer about Jesus for the majority of people. It may be about his message of loving thy neighbor and giving of oneself, but, except for the hours between 8 am and 10 am spent at church on Christmas morning, the holiday is about charity and commercialism. The irony of this dichotomy is not lost on me at all.
In case you were wondering, The American Family Association maintains a list of major retailers and their advertising for this time of year.
http://www.afa.net/christmasban.asp
The funny thing here is that Best Buy refuses to use Christmas in their advertising, but wishes everyone a happy obscure Muslim holiday.
http://www.snopes.com/politics/christmas/bestbuy2009.asp
Best Buy maintains that there will be Happy Hannukah and Merry Christmas ads as well. We will see.
The point of this is that stores are so intimidated by a small minority of people who are actually offended by this message that they refuse to acknowledge the elephant in the room, possibly to their own detriment.
Let me draw a conclusion for you. I think the atheist uproar over public displays is a bit much. Not endorsing a religion is different than establishing a national religion. No one tells anyone they have to worship the city's Christmas Tree or lay prostrate in honor of the menorah. They are displays that pay tribute to the limited American culture that exists. These are not symbols that tell us to honor Jesus, they are symbols to remind us that we all live together, and tolerance and good will should reign year round, not just for two weeks in December. I understand the complaint, I just disagree with it. The retail industry I take the opposite stance on. Retail stores are trying to be inclusive. They run the risk of alienating the majority of people, but they do so at their expense. Like I said, most people are looking for the best deal, not the most spirit, and the all mighty dollar is all we are worshiping here in America.
