Alberto Del Rio: Truly a heel turn?

[LSN80]

I'm referring to the match itself, not the promo following. The promo felt impromptu, almost as if to say, "Yes, we really are turning him heel."

As for the match? Who cares if he's a heel or a face? If your opponent has a weakness, you attack it until you're successful and victorious. In this case, it was Del Rio targeting the head of Dolph Ziggler, who just returned to action from a concussion two nights earlier. I suppose if he was truly a swell guy, he'ld ignore attacking the head, although his Enzeguri and Superkick involve aiming for the head anyways. Yes, I understand, it just wasn't that, he spent the entire match that he was on offense targeting the head, but he's trying to regain the World Heavyweight Championship that he just lost. and not The best way to go about it? It wasn't cheating, it wasn't holding the trunks, nor outside interference. It was zeroing in on a weak spot, exploiting it, and winning the match. And because it worked, and that was the entire of Del Rio's offense, it's heelish?

I can see this much more being rationale for Dolph Ziggler turning face. He showed great heart and resolve in continuing to fight, and not allowing the referee to stop the match. Moreover, it creates an actual feud between the two that wasn't there before. So yes, the argument could be made that Ziggler has turned, but Alberto Del Rio? He knew his opponent's weakness, zeroed in on at, and attacked. That's being a smart competitor, not a heel. He's chasing the World Title, after all, not having an exhibition match. It was for the second biggest prize in the company, and by focusing on where Ziggler was weak, he won the title back. What is heelish about that?

I don't want to focus on Ziggler here, as he's irrelevant to this discussion. This is about Alberto Del Rio only.

Am I off here? Was the action in the ring(not the promo after) truly a heel turn?

 

[Poop Master Flex]

Well the match itself was the start of the heel turn but the promo after is what solidified it. Although going after the head is what any logical person would do Del Rio didn't play it off as a face. For example when Ziggler was leaning against the apron with the paramedics looking at him and Del Rio just blindsides him in the head with a stiff kick even though the match was at a point where you didn't know if Ziggler could continue, that's a pretty heelish thing to do, a face sits in the ring and waits until the paramedics say you're good to go. There were times where Del Rio was coming off not as a person trying to win, but a person who is trying to end Ziggler's career and that's where the difference is, that's how I saw it anyways.

Ziggler is easier to explain, heels don't have the heart of a lion and Ziggler refused to quit even though his health was at stake doing it, that's face 101 right there.

 

[Greg4WWE]

Dolph would of done the same thing if tables were reversed> I dunno.. just seems a weird way to turn Dolph face and Del Rio heel IMO.

 

[Fire Marshall Bill]

I see what you're saying. And it is basic logic. Want to win? Attack the opponents weak spot. However, you're forgetting classic professional wrestling face psychology. A true face hardly ever blatantly targets a known weak spot excessively like that. At some point they generally will take a few shots here and there, but it's often well into the match and usually a part of their normal moveset anyways. While anyone would think, "if you want to win, go after his concussion," it's not a chivalrous means of fighting, which is what faces nowadays generally do.

If you want a perfect example of why this is a clear sign of a heel turn, look no further than how Mickie James won the TNA Knockout's Championship a few weeks back. She attacked Velvet's injured knee to finally get her pinned. It was the clear beginning of the heel turn that she completed this past Thursday.

Not to mention, from what I'm hearing about the match (I didn't see it), it seems that ADR was pretty malicious in his attacks.

 

[dakikko049]

I get what you mean. For me what really needed to happen was to see something cheap to win it, something that would make the fans who loved him gasp, something you wouldn't expect of a face. For me the ending was too clean and it looked like Dolph just wasn't good enough. Instead of using the focusing on a weakness, they should have done something that would taint Del Rio's win even more, like taking advantage of a Ziggler mistake or something.

Maybe I'm wrong, maybe Ziggler's heroics made Del Rio look bad enough.

 

[a member of wwe universe]

del rio is turning heel. Him targeting ziggler head throughout the match is a huge indicator. A babyface just doesnt exploit and abuse an opponent weakness like del rio did. Can you imagine cena does something like that? Del Rio has been portrayed as a fun loving babyface that wants to do things the right way. It made no sense for del rio to wrestle like that last night if hes not turning heel. If Del Rio character was similar to eddie guerrero, it wouldve been logical.

 

[sanefan_har]

And this is why we need to tune into the longest running , weekly episodic show in television History, Monday Night Raw.

Excellent PPV. This is the buildup they should've had for WM.

Now coming back to the OP. Yes , Del Rio is turning heel. And the IWC's hero is finally becoming a babyface. Now they'll move on to the next guy.

 

[Blade]

You make some decent points, but I'm pretty sure that was a heel turn for Del Rio.

But in the world of kayfabe, we're told to believe that babyfaces care more about honour than they do about winning titles. It's what makes them babyfaces. It's like John Cena stopping John Laurinitis and Vince McMahon from screwing over CM Punk at Money in the Bank 2011. Cena said "not this way" because he wanted to do it with honour and dignity and all that crap.

Now, I didn't see much honour in what Del Rio did against Ziggler. There's no honour in kicking in someone's head when it could cause severe damage because they're recovering from a concussion. There's no honour in flying two feet into your opponent's head when the doctor is checking on them. There's no honour in continuing to kick a man in the head when his girlfriend is literally in tears over it.

Like I said, based on the actions of John Cena, the archetypal babyface, those were not the actions of a babyface. You want to know why they're the actions of a heel?




The Rock hitting Mankind in the head with chair shot after chair shot. That was well within the rules of that match, much like Del Rio kicking Ziggler in the head, but there's something disturbing and hard to watch about it. Those are the actions of a heel.

 

[The Eighties]

Wrestling is a morality play, in those the good guys do not brutally attack a man who is injured, especially a very serious head injury as it makes you look cowardly.

So by WWE logic that goes from being competitive to being a bad guy just like in real sports, you want to win but you aren't looking to permanently damage your opponent.

It's a good choice by WWE as Del Rio has never gotten over as a face and the crowd want to cheer Ziggler, I think his career will hit the next level with the face turn.

 

[CMbrose Punk]

just seems a weird way to turn Dolph face and Del Rio heel IMO.

It's simple really. Kill two birds with one stone. Dolph isn't that over as a heel and Del Rio isn't that over as a face. Dolph gets more cheers than boo's, even from the casual fans. Del Rio only gets cheered because of Rodriguez. Back to the thread's topic though, the match itself was a pretty definitive heel turn in my opinion. Del Rio targeted Ziggler's head the entire match and he didn't relent; it was repeated shots over and over. Two of which occurred as the ring-side doctor was trying to check on Ziggler. Del Rio didn't even win with a finisher; it was just another shot to the head. They played up Ziggler's heart and fighting spirit by having him try to make a comeback but then went back to nursing his injury after delivering a move. From a psychological standpoint, every thing about this match was a Del Rio heel turn. I thought it was well executed. I'm sure they knew going into this match that Ziggler would get cheered in Chicago and Del Rio would get booed regardless of how the match played out, so they used it to their advantage to help sell the heel turn even more. Well done.

 

[Wrestlefan27]

I just posted an article on the other side about a face turn. I was thinking about this situation and it has me wondering: What exactly constitutes a face turn?

Is getting repeatedly kicked in the head enough of a catalyst for a face turn? Is "becoming a victim" all that it takes in terms of story? Are all the bad things that a heel did suddenly forgotten and never mentioned? Is there no pennance or atonement? Is just booking a guy to wrestle other heels enough to make him a "face"? I feel Del Rio's actions were obvious enough to make him a heel. He attacked in a way that could cause permanent and life threatening injury-something faces just don't do. But with Dolph going face, I don't know how that's supposed to work, unless they give him amnesia from brain damage.

How is it supposed to work with AJ, who recently did one of the meanest things ever (kayfabe) to Kaitlyn? Is she "face" by association now? Or will she drop Ziggler now because he lost the gold and she's the champ and he's not good enough for her?

What do you all think? I feel the WWE doesn't put enough work into face turns. Most of the time, there's no difference in character between a face and a heel after they've turned. They're just facing different opponents.

 

[Dagron]

I don't see how you could question ADR's status if you actually saw the match. It wasn't just the exlusive offense on the head, it was how he got Big E. tossed by pushing E. first, then smirking when E. got tossed as if to say "gotcha!" It was the repeated blind side attacks. In particular, the one where Ziggler was trying to get medical personel to get out of his way so that he can re enter the ring, only for ADR to baseball slide into Ziggler's head was something only a heel would do. That single cheap shot, along with ADR's facial expressions throughout, removed all questions of his status. The promo afterwards just cemented it.

If you haven't seen it, do so. The storytelling and crowd interaction is the kind of thing that reminds you why we watch wrestling.

 

[#heel420]

I was there live and I have to say this heel turn was flawless. The entire arena truly felt bad for Ziggler and really hated Del Rio by the end of the match. Completely unexpected perfect double turn. Well done WWE.

And yes the post match promo seemed to just be thrown out there last minute.

 

[uvx]

It's not the fact that Del Rio targeted Zigglers head made him a heel, it's the way he carried himself in the match. He lost his composure multiple times and looked like he was talking trash, the announcers were acknowledging how malicious he was and how the crowd had turned on him. Just before Ziggler hit the Zig Zag Del Rio was taunting the crowd and Ziggler, which I haven't seen a face do before.

 

[LSN80]

I see what you're saying. And it is basic logic. Want to win? Attack the opponents weak spot. However, you're forgetting classic professional wrestling face psychology. A true face hardly ever blatantly targets a known weak spot excessively like that. At some point they generally will take a few shots here and there, but it's often well into the match and usually a part of their normal moveset anyways. While anyone would think, "if you want to win, go after his concussion," it's not a chivalrous means of fighting, which is what faces nowadays generally do.

Which is why I prefer the tweeners such as Randy Orton or Daniel Bryan to those who wrestle with that honor that makes them, well, very dumb. John Cena, even, has no problem putting his opponent through an announce table, or torturing his opponent.(Think John Laurinitis) For Del Rio NOT to target the head would be poor strategy. The goal is to win, not be honorable, is it not?

del rio is turning heel. Him targeting ziggler head throughout the match is a huge indicator. A babyface just doesnt exploit and abuse an opponent weakness like del rio did. Can you imagine cena does something like that?

John Cena put Edge through two tables from top of a 15 foot ladder to win the WWE Title(Unforgiven 2006), gave Lita countless AA's when men still beat up women, buried Wade Barrett under a pile of chairs at TLC 2010, and tortured John Laurinitis at Over The Limit 2012. And he's their most honorable babyface.

In most those cases, he'ld had enough, I know, and he snapped. But the TLC match with Edge was for the WWE Title, not a grudge match. He risked grevious injury to Edge to win the WWE Title. Why shouldn't Del Rio be given the same free pass, when WWE's most honorable babyface has done such things?

You make some decent points, but I'm pretty sure that was a heel turn for Del Rio.

But in the world of kayfabe, we're told to believe that babyfaces care more about honour than they do about winning titles. It's what makes them babyfaces. It's like John Cena stopping John Laurinitis and Vince McMahon from screwing over CM Punk at Money in the Bank 2011. Cena said "not this way" because he wanted to do it with honour and dignity and all that crap.

I have no doubt that was a heel turn for Del Rio. His promo following the match proved that. But see my previous points: His "burial" of Wade Barrett. His attempts to injure each member of Nexus "from within" before the anonymous GM said "No More." His willingness to beat up Lita countless times. Putting Edge through two tables from the top of a ladder. Are those really actions of an honorable babyface, or a man who wants to win?

The Rock hitting Mankind in the head with chair shot after chair shot. That was well within the rules of that match, much like Del Rio kicking Ziggler in the head, but there's something disturbing and hard to watch about it. Those are the actions of a heel.

Fair point, and it was overboard. But Rock was also the heel in the match. He played a tape of Foley saying "I Quit." Rock could have laid Foley out far before the 22 chair shots, then played the tape. Del Rio couldn't get a pin until his last superkick. That's the difference I see.

It's a good choice by WWE as Del Rio has never gotten over as a face and the crowd want to cheer Ziggler, I think his career will hit the next level with the face turn.

This I can't argue with. Regardless of how they got there, it was a smart move to do a double turn. I just feel it could have been executed better, in a way, before the promo, to truly cement that Del Rio was turning heel.

Del Rio targeted Ziggler's head the entire match and he didn't relent; it was repeated shots over and over. Two of which occurred as the ring-side doctor was trying to check on Ziggler. Del Rio didn't even win with a finisher; it was just another shot to the head.

Why should he relent? It's zoning in on an opponent's weakness. As for him attacking when the ringside doctors were checking on Del Rio, that's a fair point. That, to me, was the most heelish thing he did in the match.

As for the finish, he's used that Superkick before many times, made covers, and gotten near falls. This time, it lead to a pin. Nothing wrong with that.

I don't see how you could question ADR's status if you actually saw the match.

I would not have started the thread had I not seen the match. Actually, I saw it twice, the original and the 'free replay.'

It wasn't just the exlusive offense on the head, it was how he got Big E. tossed by pushing E. first, then smirking when E. got tossed as if to say "gotcha!"

So to even the odds is a bad thing? Getting the heel's heavy out of the way is a classic babyface move.

It was the repeated blind side attacks. In particular, the one where Ziggler was trying to get medical personel to get out of his way so that he can re enter the ring, only for ADR to baseball slide into Ziggler's head was something only a heel would do. That single cheap shot, along with ADR's facial expressions throughout, removed all questions of his status. The promo afterwards just cemented it.

Again, I suppose I cannot question this. Personally, I think it falls within the confines of either stop the match, call for a break, or there's nothing wrong with it, as long as it doesn't break the rules. Del Rio never broke the rules, he just took advantage of the weakness of a man who returned to action 2 days prior, the man who "stole" his title.

If you haven't seen it, do so. The storytelling and crowd interaction is the kind of thing that reminds you why we watch wrestling.

It was a smart crowd, and they knew what they were witnessing. I don't question that they were turning him heel, I question the way they did it. As in, within the confines of the rules.

If the referee had been down, and he used Ricardo's stupid bucket or a belt shot to the head, that's a far more damning heel turn.

Of course, this also creates intrigue, as Del Rio can say he was doing what I said he was: Fighting within the confines of the rules.

 

[Wrestlefan27]

It's less about the attacks being "within the rules" and more about one athlete doing something that can cause another athlete permanent injury or even brain damage. Obviously, they're trying to hurt each other enough to score the pin, but there's a line between "competition" and just plain hurting someone. Even in physical sports such as football and hockey, nobody intends to injure anyone and it's looked down upon. You have to take into account the current climate. Look how much emphasis is on concussions in sports these days. Look what happened with Chris benoit and the repeated brain trauma. Would anyone be saying anything if Dolph hadn't just been diagnosed with a concussion? I doubt it. That's why it worked.

 

[scomvp316]

-The aggressiveness of ADR on Dolph's head along with ADR's frustration of not pinning Ziggler when he thought he should of
-Even the announcers put Ziggler over as a face as Cole & JBL mentioned Ziggler just won't give up

 

[Pedigree1]

First of all ADR like i have always said is a better heel than a face. I think we can all pretty much agree,his run as a face was just well fell flat. Was it Heelish to attack Ziggler in the head? No not heelish at all but very great strategy. Ya it was kind of a dick move for him to attack Ziggler while he was getting Medical attention but he did what he had to do..

ADR again a way way better heel than a face. For him to say what he said on his promo on tonights raw (I wont spoil it for anyone seeing as how a lot of us have DVR and watch it later but it was good). Yes ADR is a heel proved it last night and tonight. He looks slimy,like a used car salesman. But ADR is cool when he is a heel not so much so when he is a face IMO

 

[Kodo Sawaki]

Now there is no doubt, he has indeed turned heel...

Said it once and would said it once more: He couldnt get over with one of the most simple gimmick of all: rich guy who just screams "hate me". And by reactions now he still wouldnt get over. Said thing is, guy gets opportunities all time chasing major championships. I get it WWE, he is more then a solid worker and you invested in him, but doesnt mean that he is more from the midcard...

 

[shooter_mcgavin]

Dolph would of done the same thing if tables were reversed> I dunno.. just seems a weird way to turn Dolph face and Del Rio heel IMO.

I say it was simple but brilliant and the crowd ate it up. Let's face it Del Rio was failing as a face and Ziggler has been getting crowd support for months now. Doing this made sense and actually creates interest in the WHC Picture since the feuds over the last year has been quite anemic.

 

[I_Am_Electro_Boy]

Through the match Del Rio for me was wrestling like a heel would. The way he targeted the head was with malice it didn't look like it was a tactic it looked like he wanted to hurt Dolph. The fact that he wouldn't allow Dolph to be checked and just kept attacking Dolph was also a heel thing to do. If the feud was heated and personal then Del Rio would maybe still act like this even as a face because the heel would've sent the face over the edge, but the feud wasn't heated or personal.

 

[The Eighties]

This I can't argue with. Regardless of how they got there, it was a smart move to do a double turn. I just feel it could have been executed better, in a way, before the promo, to truly cement that Del Rio was turning heel.

The thing with the way it has been done is it has given Del Rio some justification to be angry, all the best heels have a kernel of truth they can cling to no matter what they do.

I thought Del Rio's promo on Raw was the best he has ever cut as it wasn't just a bunch of buzz words like hsi destiny stuff or corny sucking up like his face turn, he had some fire because from a character standpoint he has a genuine reason to feel he did nothing wrong even though most people would say the repeated kicks to the head of a man who has just had a concussion was going too far, and from here he'll continue to escalate in his viciousness as a heel and still cling to that night after Mania as his justification.

 

[Mustang Sally]

Yeah, I'm figurin' when a guy steps up to the mic and says: "Americans are pigs and cowards" he's headed down the dark path.

If the company plans to turn Dolph Ziggler face and still needs worthy opponents to battle it out with him, turning ADR heel will accomplish this very nicely. They still fight, but now on opposite sides.

I was enjoying Del Rio as a good guy; it was fun cheering him and Ricardo. Still, the move is a logical one if they want to keep pitting him against Dolph. I see ADR as one of the few main event wrestlers.....and this is the way to keep him there if Dolph turns.

 

[HBsam31]

I guess I am one of the few who actually enjoyed Del Rio as a face, but yeah he is definitely heel after Monday night. I don't think Ziggler is a guy i will ever get behind, but the crowd sure ate it up when he attacked Del Rio during his match with Punk. Like Sally said, it was the right move to turn Del Rio heel, and if they continue with the Ziggler face turn then I think they can salvage this feud with Ziggler chasing and eventually winning the title back from a heel Del Rio.