A Taker streak question

[Killercam]

Pretty simple question, should they have done an Undertaker - Vince match at some point?? If they did, the window for this match would've been small (when Vince was still in shape enough to take big bumps AND pose a threat to Taker. It also would have to had taken place when the streak was of relevance). The window I see would have been at 22. I know Vince went with HBK at 22 BUT they could have found something else for HBK (triple threat with Cena?). Plus Taker met Henry which was his most lackluster opponent at Mania (on paper). Even if it wasn't at 22 would this have been a good idea? Vince could have had a few guys do run-ins or even stack the odds against Taker with stipulations and he could have made a big deal about "creating" Taker and promised that if anyone would ever break the streak it would have been him.

 

[Steamboat Ricky]

Vince fought Taker at Survivor Series 2003. There would have been no reason to have another rematch of that kind pairing. So...no.

 

[Brocky maivia]

Thats a good point,but you could build this match up differently. You could have bad things happen to the deadman. Random attacks maybe have his wife kidnapped something to really mess with him. People are wondering why takers been target and you have the big reveal as vince. Then you could go.with the ops idea of vince saying he created taker and he can end the streak, even have him say he created mania and hes the focal point not the streak. Then at mania have taker attacked by some of vinces lackeys have them really mess him up with chairs and put him through a table. Thej just as you.think vince is gonna get three count have the lights go out and then you.heqr paul.bearer and he comes out with the urn rejuvanating the deadman with.he classic white eye face. Have hik oroceed to beqt the shit out of vince and finish him with a tombstone on a chair for the 3 coung

 

[MrMojoRisin]

Vince/Taker at Survivor Series was bad enough. Vince had gotten well past the point where his character worked as a wrestler (see his first matches with Austin for how that character worked best in the ring), and had built himself up to the point where he was able to go toe to toe with the absolute best in his company, like the Undertaker.

That's the one thing I always hated about Mr. McMahon as a wrestler. I don't care how good of shape he's in. He'd be in the ring with guys sometimes 20-30 years younger than him, who he had promoted as being the best of the best... and he could always keep up with them. Sure he always needed shortcuts and heel tactics, but as time went on, those were always less and less. He was at his best early on when his tactics would include stuff like having Austin tie one arm behind his back, having the Stooges run a ridiculous amount of interference while changing the rules on the fly to allow it, and basically abusing his authority to keep the advantage, before it all finally not being enough and he'd take the shit kicking that a guy like him should always take against the best of the best.

 

[MarysesPantiesInMyMouth]

It was a horrible idea even back in 2003 when it happened. It would have been even worse if it was done again in recent years. Soo my vote is its a dumb idea

 

[Steamboat Ricky]

Thats a good point,but you could build this match up differently. You could have bad things happen to the deadman. Random attacks maybe have his wife kidnapped something to really mess with him. People are wondering why takers been target and you have the big reveal as vince. Then you could go.with the ops idea of vince saying he created taker and he can end the streak, even have him say he created mania and hes the focal point not the streak. Then at mania have taker attacked by some of vinces lackeys have them really mess him up with chairs and put him through a table. Thej just as you.think vince is gonna get three count have the lights go out and then you.heqr paul.bearer and he comes out with the urn rejuvanating the deadman with.he classic white eye face. Have hik oroceed to beqt the shit out of vince and finish him with a tombstone on a chair for the 3 coung

This is very similar to the match he had with Hogan at Mania XIX, which was a terrible match itself.

Vince in the ring has always been pretty awful, with the exception of a tolerable performance against Shane at X-7 and his match w/ HBK. The great thing about the Streak Match at Mania is that there is usually a legit feeling that it COULD end. Vince would NOT ever end the streak himself, and the believability would be 0.

No all around.

 

[Killercam]

I'm just saying since the streak has been the focal point of Taker matches at Mania I think they could have booked a storyline that made you at least have doubt that Taker could loose and even though Vince isn't the monster that Henry, Batista, HHH etc are and after Taker defeated so many of the top monsters for years and years at Mania this could have been a twist that with it being Vince, by hook or by crook he was going to break the streak. As in my original post I said Mania 22 would have been when I booked the match (Vince could even use his losses at 17 to Shane and 19 to Hogan as a reason why he would never loose at the event he created again). You would be waiting on the screwjob to take place to end the streak, it would have just been a different scenario than most Mania matches than we've gotten from Taker.

 

[lowandmighty]

This is very similar to the match he had with Hogan at Mania XIX, which was a terrible match itself.

I thought that match was awesome, wasn't a terrible match, I liked the brawl style of it. I actually liked Hogans style, you knew what you were going to get and usually got it.

As far as the question of McMahon vs Undertaker at a wrestlemania. It could've worked because even though McMahon had no physical threat to the Undertaker, he owns wwe. Therefore If he really wanted to make undertaker lose he could potentially make it happen.

 

[HBsam31]

The thing about this is the fact that Vince has never won at Mania. I believe he actually said at one point in a book or interview that he would never put him self over in a match at Mania. The matches Vince has had were for the guy he was facing to get revenge on him for some wrong doing. It doesn't matter if he owns the company or not, there just would have been no way for them to make us believe even for a second that Vince would end the streak. Maybe just maybe it might have worked around the time Vince and Austin were going at it, but the streak wasn't recognized then. It just wouldn't have worked.

 

[Pay Per Ghost]

This is very similar to the match he had with Hogan at Mania XIX, which was a terrible match itself.

Vince in the ring has always been pretty awful, with the exception of a tolerable performance against Shane at X-7 and his match w/ HBK. The great thing about the Streak Match at Mania is that there is usually a legit feeling that it COULD end. Vince would NOT ever end the streak himself, and the believability would be 0.

No all around.

You know I'm not too sure about this. But it is a bit of hyperbole considering the fact that Vince has an amazing losing streak at 'Mania. But if you take the circumstances of SS 2003 where Kane interfered and buried his brother, I could see the whole world coming down to help Vince. I know the inevitable would be Taker overcoming all odds, but Vince's character has always had an amazing ability to incite a crowd. The result would be foregone, but the match would have its moments.

 

[FlairFan2003]

It is hard to believe Vince would have been a legit threat to end The Streak, although with heavy promotion and a variety of storyline props (Taker injury, crooked ref, outside interferrence) the booking might have been good enough to keep you interested.

I do give Vince credit, he is not a wrestler, even in the part time sense, never has been, never will be, he does play a great heel character on TV but the character, although a very effective villain, isnt a wrestler. It takes a lot to get Vince in the ring, but when he does he is also smart enough to book short matches that stay competitive without being unrealistic, staying true to the sneaky, heel nature of his character, but always ending in his opponent getting a clear cut definitive win, which is EXACTLY what the audience wants. Whether it be Hogan, Michaels, DX, Flair, etc, Vince doesnt embarrass the real stars by booking himself over them, or infuriate the crowd either.

As for Vince-Taker, since they clashed in 2003 on PPV a WM showdown seems unecessary. Vince-Hogan for example had never happened and it had a built in storyline (Who Made WWE). As with any Vince or Hogan match you didnt get a classic but they kept it believable and Hogan triumphed clean in the end, which we all wanted to see anyway.

The Streak itself was never even mentioned until WM 17. Only after beating Triple H & Flair back to back did The Streak itself start to become a storyline prop. At that point, with The Streak playing g key role in Taker's WM storylines, even with great booking I dont think Vince would have been a good choice as an opponent. At least through last year there was legit chance that Taker's Streak could end as he battled Orton, Batista, HHH, HBK, Edge, I think a Vince match would not have been recieved as the same level legit threat to the Streak.

 

[shooter_mcgavin]

Vince in the ring has always been pretty awful, with the exception of a tolerable performance against Shane at X-7 and his match w/ HBK. The great thing about the Streak Match at Mania is that there is usually a legit feeling that it COULD end. Vince would NOT ever end the streak himself, and the believability would be 0.

No all around.

But who no one was expecting Mark Henry to end the streak either. Though I agree Vince vs. Undertaker probably isn't an ideal match to challenge the streak. I was even against HBK vs. McMahon on the card.

WM22 was a bloated card but it wasn't a good card. Outside the World title matches and Women's Title Match the event really didn't offer anything. And this wasn't even based on hindsight. I would think that maybe if Undertaker had a quality opponent (or Shawn Michaels for that matter) WM22 would have been better.

I am thinking two opponents would have better suited for Undertaker.

The Undertaker vs. Kurt Angle - They had a great match at No Way Out and imagine if this match was at WM. Regardless if it was a title match or not. I would think maybe Kurt Angle can stay heel on RAW and just challenge Undertaker. Then maybe Benoit can be given the World Title and make it a Triple Threat between Benoit/Orton/Mysterio. So instead of a bad Undertaker match and a solid World Title Match, you could instead get a solid world title match and a 5 Star Undertaker Match.

The Undertaker vs. Chris Benoit - Benoit was still one of the top guys at the time. A Simple challenge to the Undertaker would have justified this match happening. Plus we have never seen Benoit and Taker go one-on-one in a high profile match yet. Then just book John Bradshaw Layfield siding with Vince McMahon and taking on Shawn Michaels in a Texas Street Fight. So another win-win. I actually wanted this for WM22 at the time.

 

[Wald]

Vince/Taker at Survivor Series was bad enough. Vince had gotten well past the point where his character worked as a wrestler (see his first matches with Austin for how that character worked best in the ring), and had built himself up to the point where he was able to go toe to toe with the absolute best in his company, like the Undertaker.

That's the one thing I always hated about Mr. McMahon as a wrestler. I don't care how good of shape he's in. He'd be in the ring with guys sometimes 20-30 years younger than him, who he had promoted as being the best of the best... and he could always keep up with them. Sure he always needed shortcuts and heel tactics, but as time went on, those were always less and less. He was at his best early on when his tactics would include stuff like having Austin tie one arm behind his back, having the Stooges run a ridiculous amount of interference while changing the rules on the fly to allow it, and basically abusing his authority to keep the advantage, before it all finally not being enough and he'd take the shit kicking that a guy like him should always take against the best of the best.

This is very true. Remember when Shane McMahon fought Randy Orton a few years back and Orton needed both DiBiase and Rhodes to get a cheap win? This was also supposed to be the set up for Orton being a threat to Triple H...

The McMahon ego knows no bounds

 

[HeenanGorilla]

Vince fought Taker at Survivor Series 2003. There would have been no reason to have another rematch of that kind pairing. So...no.

You're not only a jerk, you missed the point of the post. All in all, I'm glad you decided to chime in--great addition!

Anyway, I wrote this in April 2011, before Savage died, of course. But, my thinking was Vince vs. Taker could put doubt into the streak ending. What do you think, OP?

I have a long-term idea that doesn't involve ANY main eventers (aside from Taker, who we mostly agree is a special attraction at this point) , but could keep fans' interest if done correctly.

I think that one way to put serious doubt into the outcome of the 20-0 match would be to make it Undertaker vs. Vince. The buildup could be HUGE. A few things they could do: Remind fans of Montreal '97, address that Vince controls everyone (wrestlers, refs, everyone involved), make it no holds barred where Vince has hired hands or goons coming to the ring sproadically throughout the match to help, etc. They could do a great job with this buildup and then have a TRUE swerve at the end that would get Undertaker to 20-0 AND set up a storyline to go from there. This resulting storyline would not include the Undertaker, but be more of a launchpad for some other superstar.

Making this up as I type, but here's a stretch... Vince, ensuring that Undertaker does not manhandle his "goons", makes the stipulation that whoever the Undertaker lays his hands on during the match becomes the ref. If Vince waves Big Show down to help and Undertaker hits him, Big Show is now the ref and tries to make quick counts, etc. These "quick counts, etc." could lead to some high spots with real outcome doubts for the viewers.

And then, just as Undertaker is about to be defeated (like when all of the heels helped Yoko get him into the casket)...a young up-and-comer decides to make a stand, comes down and clears the ring. (Have to be a Batista/Lashley/Brock type...don't think a "little" guy like Dolph or JoMo would work here) Laying out everyone and leaving carnage. Goons are all out, Vince is out, Undertaker is blown up. THEN, Randy Savage runs down, Undertaker high fives him--making him the ref--and he counts 1,2,3. Screwing Vince, getting Taker his 20-0, setting up a revenge angle against the up-and-comer, and gets Savage into the fold.

Savage is then in the corner of the up-and-comer, who will face someone of Vince's choosing at SummerSlam (a la Lashley/Trump vs Umaga/Vince). Vince's guy wins, but not clean--fueling the rivalry--and Savage is beaten/hurt and off TV until the end of the year. This then eventually leads to his return and a stipulation match at Royal Rumble 2013, where Savage's HOF induction/ban is on the line. Savage's guy wins the re-match and Randy gets inducted at WM 29.

 

[MaverickMeyer]

I don't think a Taker-Vince match really works, because while Vince is the CEO, President, etc, Taker is also a super-powered force that doesn't really take orders from McMahon, so it's not really as interesting as an Austin-Vince or Shawn-Vince match is.

 

[Jack-Hammer]

Vince vs. Taker, in my eyes, wouldn't have sold many ppvs. We've seen Taker beat Vince up so many times that it just doesn't have any allure to most people. On top of that, we've seen Vince wrestle in major ppvs before and he usually gets his ass kicked. Nobody's more willing to take an ass kicking than Vince McMahon if he thinks it'll help generate a lot of money. And, to his credit, it usually has. For instance, when he challenged CM Punk to a "fight" on Raw that was no DQ, it was the highest rated segment of Raw in quite some time. The entire show popped a big rating because they wanted to see what happened.

However, WrestleMania is different. The streak is something that's become almost sacred in the eyes of fans. It's something that's endured and has been embraced by millions of fans on an emotional level. The streak is an angle that sells itself and really has for the past 5 years or so. All you have to do is put a guy whose a great wrestler against Taker and the checks practically write themselves. Guys like Batista, Edge, Orton, HBK, Triple H & Punk are believable threats to Taker. These are guys who people look at and say "he has a chance to end the streak". You don't get that sense with Vince McMahon. The only way McMahon would have had a chance to end the streak is if damn near every heel on the roster interfered on Vince's behalf to help him get the win. That would be a MASSIVELY horrible way to end something as celebrated as the streak. The streak has become seeing Taker, an aging superstar respected & loved by fans & insiders alike, struggling to keep winning at the biggest show of the year. Fans know that Taker is hurt, they know that his body has really broken down the past several years. That even adds a lot to it because it has people wondering if the streak will end. Will Taker just suddenly stop wrestling one day? Will a WM match be his last one and, if so, who will it be against?

All these factors help to sell the streak each & every year, so adding someone that nobody believes has a legit chance of beating Taker, like Vince, would be a waste.

 

[Killercam]

@HeenanGorilla. That's out there. I don't think it's a bad idea it's just been so long since WWE has been that deep with an angle you just don't expect stuff like that anymore. I think some people missed my point, I am not campaigning for a Vince-Taker match this year, like I said I would have booked it somewhere between 20-22, but your idea would have given legs for a recent mania. I just think that whenever Taker is retired there will undoubtably be a lot of reminiscing on the streak and as great as it has been (and I give WWF credit for running with it) but there has been some questionable booking with it (since it became relevant) such as his matches with Henry, the WM 19 bullshit and to an extent going two years in a row with HBK. They had options with the likes of Goldburg, Lesner, Kurt and yes even Vince that could have posed a different type of threat besides the monster heel to Taker.