A gift for the prisoners

[Hazardous]

Well, this more goes out to one of you, since the other one has proven he is useless. I did this thread a while back, but would like to get your input on it as well. Granted this was done before Daniel Bryan was brought back, so pardon my exclusion of him. So, tell me what you think, and make a good reply to it.

In the long history of the WWE/WCW, Submission maneuvers have been the trademark finisher of a number of Superstars. Whether it be Lex Lugar's "Torture Rack" or Bret Hart's "Sharpshooter" it was their finisher. But one of the things I have noticed in the past few years, is the real lack of Submission finishers. Granted, you have John Cena's use of the "STF" and The Heart Dynasty's use of Bret's Sharpshooter, but these are not their Signature finisher, and for some, are usually done very poorly.
Those days seem to be gone, To be replaced by the more flashy higher impact ones.

So I thought I would take this time to take a look back at a few of the Superstars who used a Submission move as their finisher.. afterwords, I would like to get people's opinions on the subject.

Dean Malinko - Texas Cloverleaf

Considered by some to be the greatest of his kind, Malinko used this move with such finesse, and was so technical that he made it look really devastating. These day's Dean is one of the trainers in the WWE, so maybe he will see someone who has what it takes to be the next "man of 1000 holds" and train him in his style.

Chris Benoit - Crippler Crossface

Unfortunately, due to the "Benoit Tragedy" you will never see this move on any of the WWE.com lists, or DVD's. Which is a shame really, as it really is one of the best Submission maneuvers ever used. it didn't matter if Chris was using it on a Cruiserweight, such as Rey Mysterio, or a Heavyweight like HHH, it was believable. HBK was known to use it here and there as well, but it never quite had the realism to it that Benoit's did.

Ric Flair - Figure 4 Leg Lock

Considered by many to be the greatest Submission in professional wrestling history, the Figure 4 is a time honored Classic. Yes I'm aware the Flair was not the inventor of the move, but he is the one who brought it to the "Mainstream" Wrestling fan. This move alone has resulted in more wins then any other move you see today.


These are just 3 examples of many, many wrestlers who's finisher was not a big flashy move such as the "Attitude Adjustment" or the "RKO". Even Chris Jericho's "Walls of Jericho" have been moved down from a move used to win championships, to a move reversed on a nightly basis.

So now my question is:
Do you think Modern day wrestling has killed the art of Submission Wrestling?
If not, then why?
If so, do you ever see a return?

 

[CenaSucker&OrtonFucker]

You're trying to redeem yourself for being a clueless fan in the other thread. It's not going to work now.

 

[CenaSucker&OrtonFucker]

You're a whiny little punk just like Chris Jericho.

 

[Safari.GFX]

Interesting, I've made similar topics on other forums about submission moves of the old. I remember when submission's were as big of deal as slams and other finishing moves, for example Kurt Angle's Ankle lock. In the WWE he always kicked butt with that, but now I see more and more guys escaping it, just like the Wall of Jericho that you talked about.

Another submission that I would have mentioned is Sargent Slaughter's Cobra Clutch. He won a lot of matches with this to, maybe not as many as Ric Flair's Figure Four, but still many. There's a certain something about the Clutch that I think makes it that much better then the Figure Four. It might be the fact that it can black people out. That sounds weird, but it kind of adds to the excitement of the match. Also, Sarge could break this out of no where, some one could be going for a clothesline and all of a sudden BAM! Sarge has the Cobra Clutch locked in. Ric Flair almost (not always) did a little dance before he locked in the figure four. The figure four was just pretty predictable. I'm not saying which one is the best, just which one I like better.

The Von Erich Claw! How did that not get brought up! I think this is one of the all time greats. It was used by almost every Von Erich. The actual effectiveness of the move I'm not to sure, but the fact that the Von Erich's won so much with it. If you ever get the chance to watch some old WCCW or NWA tapes, almost every match that any Von Erich won, was by way of submission, and that submission being... The Claw!

Also, the Sleeper hold! Maybe one of the oldest submissions used. I know it was first used in a wrestling match in the 30's or early 40's by a wrestler named Jim Londose (or Londos not sure on spelling) from greece although I think he did use it in America. If you're one of the wrestling fans that get serious and say that "its not really applied" then look at Samoa Joe, he does a great job of making it look extremely real. As for being used as a finisher Roddy Piper used it all the way throughout his Career as his finisher. I think it's one of the most realistic wrestling moves. Just like the Cobra Clutch it can be applied out of no where. It also can have several different versions of it, both on the ground and on their feet.

I know I haven't answered you're question yet, and I'm sorry but I just wanted to get my opinion out on my favorite submissions. As for your question, has modern day wrestling killed submission wrestling? Yes and No, you could say that has severally injured it, but it's still hanging on. Danielson does a great job of using submission's in his matches, more in the indys then he does in WWE.

If you watch some indy events, Submissions are still a big part of the show. For example, Austin Aries' Horns of Aries. It's a great match ender, once he locks it in, a lot of times thats the match. WWE does a bad job on submission wrestling, and Tag Teams, but we'll save that for another thread on another day.

To touch again on Indy Wrestling's use of submissions, I feel like I need another example. Let's look at Chris Hero. He's the true "Man of a thousand holds." He has at least 4 or 5 different variants of his "The Hangman Clutch" You seem Indy's let their wrestler make decisions about what goes on in the matches a little more then WWE. That's why you hardly ever see the Anaconda Vise used by Punk anymore, at least I assume it's WWE's decision.

I hope I added to the discussion a little bit I tried to stay on topic the best I could.

 

[Remy LaCroix]

Wow, this is gonna be a long year for him.

 

[Safari.GFX]

Wow, this is gonna be a long year for him.

A long year for who?

 

[Hazardous]

A long year for who?

Not you, talking about my bastard son. The other guy. Anyway, I liked your answer. You gave facts to back up what you were saying. It was well thought up, and well executed as well. Only thing I would say is don't second guess yourself. Have some faith in your post, and stand by it. What I'm talking about is this:

I hope I added to the discussion a little bit I tried to stay on topic the best I could.

Your post was good. Without that, it was even better. This is just a person opinion of course.. But I thought it was well done either way. Keep it up

 

[Remy LaCroix]

A long year for who?

I could've swore I quoted him and left his name there. But yeah, not you, dawg.

 

[Hazardous]

Safari Man, (yes I'm referring to you by your regular name, not your prison name for now on) I have another one for you. Now this one is one of my brothers, but he said I could copy it over for you to read/reply to. (He's in Japan, or he would have done it)

The IWC always seems to have it's issues when dealing with Superstars.
Pro-Cena/Anti-Cena
Pro-Miz/Anti-Miz
Pro-Orton/Anti-Orton
ect..

But for the most part from what I have read around here, there seems to be a lot of hate for one man. Triple H. The main issues people seem to have are that he doesn't put anyone over, he has won too many World Titles, he uses his pull in the back too much. The list goes on. But you really have to look into the facts of it first. HHH married Stephanie on October 25, 2003. That's right, 2003. He was still dating Chyna up until 2000. Do you know what he had done by the time they split? Here's the list.

3 time WWF champion
2 time Intercontinental Champion
2 time WWF European Champion
1997 King of the Ring.

So are you telling me that he wasn't already on his way to having a great career by the time he started dating Stephanie? Because you're wrong. Now granted yes, those numbers, as well as a few other titles came into play after, But who among us can say they wouldn't do the same is we had the chance? If i had the chance to sleep with my bosses daughter, and have it help my career? HELL YEAH I'D DO IT! You'd have to be slightly ******ed not to if given the chance. I for one applaud HHH for what he has done. Going from being in Vince McMahon's dog house, to being his Son-in-Law. People say he has not helped put people over, and well on screen this can be true at times, but look behind the scenes. Randy Orton, Dave Batista, and most recent, Sheamus. All people HHH picked to get the "rub" from him, and look where their careers went.

I seen a few Pro-Cena people complain about HHH on here. Now if that aint some hypocritical crap, then I don't know what is. There is no difference from what HHH did in 2002 on Raw, and what Cena does now. While people like Cena, and Miz may indeed be out promoting the company, and doing some really good PR work, which by all means is great for the company, HHH has studied how things work on a day to day basis. Has studied how to work the books, how to run the juggernaut that is the WWE. Learning from the master himself, Vince McMahon, He's now in the position that when Vince does kick the bucket (lets face it.. that's the only way he'd step aside) the company will be ran by his daughter, Stephanie, and her husband, HHH. I know people say Shane will get it, but Shane left for a reason. Wants to distance himself from the company, where as Steph has become more involved. Personally I think Shane left due to Vince saying something about HHH/Steph getting the company in his Will, but who knows.

But i digress, it's good that WWE has people like Cena and Miz doing that work outside, but i credit HHH for doing what he is as well, so that when Vince finally does go, we will still have the WWE around to entertain us, and people like Miz and John will still have a place to work.

Was a good thread on his part, but want to see what you have to add to it as well.

 

[.]

A long year for who?

Not you. In fact:

 

[Ultra Awesome]

Haha. That pic is awesome.

 

[Safari.GFX]

I actually can't respond to this thread. To be honest I don't understand the question that is being asked here. But thanks for the respect, you don't know how much that helps.

 

[.]

No problem man at least you are trying to get out.

 

[Hazardous]

I actually can't respond to this thread. To be honest I don't understand the question that is being asked here. But thanks for the respect, you don't know how much that helps.

It's not really a question, as much as he wants people to give their personal opinion on the matter. Just state your views on HHH, and give reasons why you think that. That's all. Good practice