90's Legion of Doom/Road Warriors- so much pop, so little production

[HeenanGorilla]

Push does not equal a match. He specifically asked for production. Onematch does not equal one run, and one match does not equal a feud. I am talking over a period of time. The Road Warriors production (or lack thereof) from 1990 until 1992 despite being massively over and coming with great hype. Piper was brought in as a fill-in for Razor at 12 that feud was hot already and a short run with Bad News at 6. Now you want to say his run from 90 until 1992 OK now we are talking BUT it goes back to my original point of Piper being given a run with the I-C title and a feud with the white hot Bret Hart to catapult him into that next tier. Bret helped Piper elevate. The Road Warriors never had that rival/opponent during their first run. It Power and Glory, Money Inc etc....

I hate myself for feeling the need to address you but I guess I'm hoping a light will finally go on in your head and I can feel responsible for helping a lost person find their way.

THE POINT OF THE POST is getting huge pops while producing little. Your argument against me is strengthening my original point!!! You keep saying things like "he wasn't pushed" or "he wasn't around much"...HENCE WHY HE IS A GOOD EXAMPLE!

I just can't fathom a brain that misses so many connections. I took the liberty of looking at some of your other posts. You are someone who states an opinion and then HAS TO get the final word in, contradicting yourself along the way. So, this is clearly more of the same. I guess I am just not used to people being so mindless of their words.

Why do you keep bringing up Razor Ramon? The pop Piper got for that match is FURTHER PROOF of the point you are arguing against. Back to my courtroom analogy, you're like a lawyer who has a mound of rebuttals and alibis saving your guilty client's life and right before you are about to win the judgment, you show your client's weapon with his prints all over it to the jury.

Every short run I used as an example, and that you continually harp on, are actually making the point that he PRODUCED LITTLE AND STILL GOT POPS.

Now, you've thrown in this Bret elevating Piper nonsense. Elevated him to a two-month keep the IC belt warm for me and then disappear after our match level? Is that what he elevated him to?

Holy Moses. For someone who likes to pick apart every sentence, you should take your own medicine. You don't have two sentences in a row without either proving yourself wrong or contradicting your own argument.

Now, as is your history, you need to get the final word in. Go ahead. I only ask that you show your age by calling me junior or show your maturity by calling me an idiot and not by adding some fresh new nonsense that I am admittedly unable to ignore. Your silly insults are useless. But your cluelessness on this and several other topics is mind-blowing.

 

[LBGetBack]

I'd disagree with the Hulk Hogan reference.... though his matches were the weakest part of his repertoire... the NWO added years to his career as a top liner.... I'd say by 1999 his star power was waning.... but look what happened in 2002-03 when he made his WWE return. He out-popped the Rock at WM18.
And after 2003 till his retirement.... he only wrestled sporadically.

The LOD is interesting though.... by the time they debited in the WWE, they were a bit of a slower and more ponderous team. Their pops.... particularly 1990-92 were still huge!!
Definitely by the time of their late WWE run 1997-98, Hawks physique wasn't the ripped specimen of yesteryear.... and their aura of invincibility was gone too.
I remember at survivor series 97... in the survivor tag match vs the Nation of Domination... the once indestructible Hawk was eliminated very early in the match!
And then think of the LOD from the 80s where they never did clean jobs, and were the only team allowed to no-sell opponnets finisher moves (ie Hawk standing right up after Jerry lawlers piledriver... a sure finisher in the 80s).

The storyline of Hawk being drunk during his matches was cringeworthy.... you couldn't imagine that happening in their prime!

Yeah, they were constantly embarrassed in that 97-98 run. Remember the NAO shaving Hawk's hair off? And NAO and DX put them through the announcer tables. And they seemingly always got the best of LOD. NAO might've won every single match in that feud.

But LOD stayed over and kept getting huge pops despite weak booking, lackluster feuds and matches.

 

[Makaveli31]

You keep saying things like "he wasn't pushed" or "he wasn't around much"...HENCE WHY HE IS A GOOD EXAMPLE!

You are a COMPLETE and UTTER MORON. Let me break this down once and for all for your TINY pea brain.

huge pops while producing little

"Little" in terms of MATCHES, FEUDS, ANGLES. On others wrestling production. Not "little" in terms of disappearing for two years then reappearing for one match then going on hiatus again. I am talking a RUN. A period of over several YEARS. Not just one or two matches. That is NOT production. Little or big. Get a fucking a clue!! You're only talking about a SMALL part of Piper's career 1990-1992 and one match in 1996. I'm talking about a DECADE of the Road Warriors career 1990 all the way up to 1998. Apples and oranges. Again when he had his run in WCW he was main event with Hogan, he worked with Hall and Nash, he teamed with Flair, he wrestled Bret Hart....the Road Warriors were not given that kind of opportunity. So the comparison between the Warriors' production of the 1990's and Piper's in NULL and VOID. Get it, idiot?!??! That is not a contradiction that is FACT.

Why do you keep bringing up Razor Ramon?

You brought up Razor you idiot!!! You said he was not "main event" when he feuded with Razor. You know why?!? Because he subbed for Razor, so why even bring him up?!? YOU brought him up idiot!! It seems YOU are the one contradicting yourself Did he feud with after? No. So he got a pretty good spot if you ask me.

Every short run I used as an example, and that you continually harp on, are actually making the point that he PRODUCED LITTLE AND STILL GOT POPS.

Again I am specifically talking about OVER a period of time?!? Do you understand English???? Again YOU brought up Bad News Brown at WM 6 (one match), I argues that does even compare to what to what the Road Warriors were getting. YOU brought Goldust (why you even brought this up is beyond me) because 1) This was a one-off. Of course Piper will get a pop. Goldust was HOT, the angle with Razor was HOT. How as that "little" in terms of production?!?!? It was one of greatest WM matches of ALL TIME?!?!?

Now, you've thrown in this Bret elevating Piper nonsense. Elevated him to a two-month keep the IC belt warm for me and then disappear after our match level? Is that what he elevated him to?

You don't think Bret/Piper was a great feud and a great match?!? You don't think feuding with Bret Hart helped elevate Piper's stock?!?!? OK I am done with you. Goodbye.

 

[Makaveli31]

Yeah, they were constantly embarrassed in that 97-98 run. Remember the NAO shaving Hawk's hair off? And NAO and DX put them through the announcer tables. And they seemingly always got the best of LOD. NAO might've won every single match in that feud.

But LOD stayed over and kept getting huge pops despite weak booking, lackluster feuds and matches.

Exactly. Who else got buried like that with no rebuttal? No one got buried like that and STILL got the massive pops.

 

[HeenanGorilla]

You are a COMPLETE and UTTER MORON. Let me break this down once and for all for your TINY pea brain.



"Little" in terms of MATCHES, FEUDS, ANGLES. On others wrestling production. Not "little" in terms of disappearing for two years then reappearing for one match then going on hiatus again. I am talking a RUN. A period of over several YEARS. Not just one or two matches. That is NOT production. Little or big. Get a fucking a clue!! You're only talking about a SMALL part of Piper's career 1990-1992 and one match in 1996. I'm talking about a DECADE of the Road Warriors career 1990 all the way up to 1998. Apples and oranges. Again when he had his run in WCW he was main event with Hogan, he worked with Hall and Nash, he teamed with Flair, he wrestled Bret Hart....the Road Warriors were not given that kind of opportunity. So the comparison between the Warriors' production of the 1990's and Piper's in NULL and VOID. Get it, idiot?!??! That is not a contradiction that is FACT.



You brought up Razor you idiot!!! You said he was not "main event" when he feuded with Razor. You know why?!? Because he subbed for Razor, so why even bring him up?!? YOU brought him up idiot!! It seems YOU are the one contradicting yourself Did he feud with after? No. So he got a pretty good spot if you ask me.



Again I am specifically talking about OVER a period of time?!? Do you understand English???? Again YOU brought up Bad News Brown at WM 6 (one match), I argues that does even compare to what to what the Road Warriors were getting. YOU brought Goldust (why you even brought this up is beyond me) because 1) This was a one-off. Of course Piper will get a pop. Goldust was HOT, the angle with Razor was HOT. How as that "little" in terms of production?!?!? It was one of greatest WM matches of ALL TIME?!?!?



You don't think Bret/Piper was a great feud and a great match?!? You don't think feuding with Bret Hart helped elevate Piper's stock?!?!? OK I am done with you. Goodbye.

Newly single Bret Hart helped elevate Rowdy Roddy Piper's stock?? This is where I am done with you. But real quick...

Please point out where I, not you, brought up Razor Ramon and I will declare you the winner, take back my suggestions that you are a buffoon and stop thinking you are clinically insane. Waiting...

 

[HeenanGorilla]

Look, I still invite you to point out where I brought up Razor Ramon. But, I'm sitting here baffled and realized you remind me of Eddie, Chandler's roommate on Friends, who imagined they went to Atlantic City or Vegas and other things that never happened. He also argued that other people did what he did. And, although that was on TV in a comedic setting, I am also sitting here worried that I have been arguing all day with someone with legit mental issues. I sincerely hope that is not the case here and that you are just a wrestling fan who enjoys arguing for the sake of arguing.

Again, please feel free to point out where I brought up Razor Ramon. But, barring that, or at least you admitting that you are quite mixed up, I will just wish you health and to be well. Take it easy, fella.

 

[Makaveli31]

Newly single Bret Hart helped elevate Rowdy Roddy Piper's stock?? This is where I am done with you. But real quick...

LOL you are an idiot. Was not Bret higher on the card than Piper at the time?!? And "newly single" Was Bret Hart not full-time while Piper was part time? Bret Hart had just defeated Mr Perfect for the IC title at SummerSlam '91 and wrestling singles for the rest of '91 all the way thru '92 so "newly" is a bit of a stretch. Also if you watched WWF back then, Bret had wrestle numerous singles matches when when a member of the Hart Foundation. He was well-established by the time he feuded with Piper so YES he helped elevate Piper. What was Piper's best match before Bret? What was he best known for? His feud with Hogan in '85? His boxing match with Mr. T in '86? I rest my case.

Please point out where I, not you, brought up Razor Ramon and I will declare you the winner, take back my suggestions that you are a buffoon and stop thinking you are clinically insane. Waiting...
sendpm.gif

You brought up WrestleMania 12 when denying my claim that Piper was continually a main event wrestler. WrestleMania was ORIGINALLY supposed to be Goldust vs Razor Ramon that was my only argument. You brought up WM 12 so I was giving you a history lesson of why Piper was not "main event" Let's use out brain and some context here....oh I forgot who I was talking too...a complete imbecile.

 

[Makaveli31]

Look, I still invite you to point out where I brought up Razor Ramon. But, I'm sitting here baffled and realized you remind me of Eddie, Chandler's roommate on Friends, who imagined they went to Atlantic City or Vegas and other things that never happened. He also argued that other people did what he did. And, although that was on TV in a comedic setting, I am also sitting here worried that I have been arguing all day with someone with legit mental issues. I sincerely hope that is not the case here and that you are just a wrestling fan who enjoys arguing for the sake of arguing.

Again, please feel free to point out where I brought up Razor Ramon. But, barring that, or at least you admitting that you are quite mixed up, I will just wish you health and to be well. Take it easy, fella.
sendpm.gif

Your point that Bret Hart (in 1992) didn't elevate Piper's stock speaks for itself. Roddy has always cited it as one of his best matches. Don't take my word for it.

 

[Greg4WWE]

They were awesome. A scary tough team that was actually face ( I only know of their heel turn when they turned on Sting that only lasted a year, maybe), but teams like that today are instant heels.

Their run in NWA in 80s is legendary. Even the WWF run in the early 90s wasn't bad, but since they weren't a Vince creation, well... They did well for themselves considering.

After that they just aged, and Hawk had his demons.

 

[HeenanGorilla]

LOL you are an idiot. Was not Bret higher on the card than Piper at the time?!? And "newly single" Was Bret Hart not full-time while Piper was part time? Bret Hart had just defeated Mr Perfect for the IC title at SummerSlam '91 and wrestling singles for the rest of '91 all the way thru '92 so "newly" is a bit of a stretch. Also if you watched WWF back then, Bret had wrestle numerous singles matches when when a member of the Hart Foundation. He was well-established by the time he feuded with Piper so YES he helped elevate Piper. What was Piper's best match before Bret? What was he best known for? His feud with Hogan in '85? His boxing match with Mr. T in '86? I rest my case.



You brought up WrestleMania 12 when denying my claim that Piper was continually a main event wrestler. WrestleMania was ORIGINALLY supposed to be Goldust vs Razor Ramon that was my only argument. You brought up WM 12 so I was giving you a history lesson of why Piper was not "main event" Let's use out brain and some context here....oh I forgot who I was talking too...a complete imbecile.

So, the answer is YOU brought up Razor Ramon, during a history lesson I didn't need. Anyway, to the OP, Rowdy Roddy Piper is a good example.

 

[Makaveli31]

I stand by my argument Piper is a horrible example. Even if I cede you Bad News and Goldust. Piper still feuded with Hulk Hogan Kevin Nash Scott Hall Bret Hart Ric Flair all in the 1990's. He produced. Maybe even on a bigger scale than in the 1980's in his prime considering the main evented several WCW PPV's and actually went over on Hogan and the NWO. There was no hotter heel than Hogan at the time and Piper reaped the benefits. So your argumemt is flawed. Bottom line.

 

[HeenanGorilla]

I stand by my argument Piper is a horrible example. Even if I cede you Bad News and Goldust. Piper still feuded with Hulk Hogan Kevin Nash Scott Hall Bret Hart Ric Flair all in the 1990's. He produced. Maybe even on a bigger scale than in the 1980's in his prime considering the main evented several WCW PPV's and actually went over on Hogan and the NWO. There was no hotter heel than Hogan at the time and Piper reaped the benefits. So your argumemt is flawed. Bottom line.

You're embarrassing yourself. 80s Piper produced less than WCW Piper? At least the rep I am receiving shows me the amusement your nonsense is providing other readers. Poor fool. Thanks for the laughs though.

 

[Makaveli31]

You are obviously too stupid to understand basic economics so I won't even bother. I guess being a main event wrestler for a multi million dollar national promotion with 12 PPVs a year and two weekly shows on .cable tv is comparable to a regional wrestling promotion is Georgia or Mid Atlantic. You are a truly...truly an idiot.

 

[Makaveli31]

Hmm let's see Three PPV Main Events with Hogan, a feud with Hall and Nash, working with the Hitman, the Nature Boy, the FOUR horsemen, the Giant, DDP, Luger....pretty Damn productive if you ask me.....but that's just me. Im sorry I had to beat you down son

 

[HeenanGorilla]

Hey, remember when I brought up Razor Ramon? Case closed on that nut.

Everyone else, I apologize for wasting time on him. He sees my reference to mid-80s Piper as referring to the Georgia territory, so that should put any doubt about him to bed.

I hope more examples will get this post back on track. Good post, OP. Sorry for the detour. Have a good weekend, all!

 

[Makaveli31]

Hey, remember when I brought up Razor Ramon? Case closed on that nut.

Weak, Is that the best you can do. Wow. You are truly a beaten man. I already told you why Razor was brought up. It was to refute this idiotic claim

Piper was not ALWAYS a main eventer.

where you cited WrestleMania 12 as a piss poor example since Piper was not full time at the time and was a late substitute. Of course you are too stupid to understand that.

He sees my reference to mid-80s Piper as referring to the Georgia territory, so that should put any doubt about him to bed.

Piper was a rising star in Georgia and Mid-Atlantic at the time. It's where the "Rowdy" character really took off and was the reason why George Scott brought Piper to the WWF in 1984. He spent 1980-1984 is the GCW/Mid-Atlantic and 1984-1987 in the WWF. He wrestled on the first Starrcade card and feuded with many of the Mid-Atlantic's best workers. I don't see where I was wrong in that vain. I would assume "80's" Piper would include his regional work. But even if I just went with this WWF run '84'-'87 (which is only what your small brain can comprehend) it still in no way matched the exposure and success he achieved in WCW. It was a different business but Piper was right in the middle of the Monday Night War era.

I hope you learned something about wrestling economics but I think that's wishful thinking.

 

[THTRobtaylor]

Neither Dusty nor Snuka were as over as the Road Warriors during their run in the WWF.



They were not "green" by 1990 they had worked in the AWA, NWA, WCW and Japan by that time. The problem was bad booking. They produced great matches.

Having seen HeenanGorilla destroy you it's almost cruel.. but..

I clearly said they were green when they STARTED and never needed to improve because they got so over... by 1990 they had experience but their work never really improved, they would just beat people up in the main.

Vince and the other promoters didn't care, they were a license to print money... but you cannot remotely say LOD/Road Warriors were good in the ring... they weren't... but it didn't matter.

 

[Makaveli31]

Having seen HeenanGorilla destroy you it's almost cruel.. but..

Oh really?? So the examples I stated of Piper's multiple main event feuds and solid run from '96 to '99 in WCW flew over your head too?!? I guess you two share the same brain. Which is unfortunate.

I clearly said they were green when they STARTED and never needed to improve because they got so over... by 1990 they had experience but their work never really improved, they would just beat people up in the main.

They were a power team when they started and they were a power team when they finished. What did you expect them to do? Work like the Rock N Roll Express? Work like Tully and Arn. They were over and they STAYED over as a power team . So there was no problem with their "style". The problem was bad booking (Rocco), the disintegration of the WWF tag team division in the early '90s, and Hawk's demons. In no particular order.

but you cannot remotely say LOD/Road Warriors were good in the ring... they weren't... but it didn't matter.

It does not matter whether they were "good" in the ring. They put asses in seats. That's ALL that matters. If they were given a solid team to work with they could still put on a great match. I would've loved to see vs. Bagwell/Scorpio, Harlem Heat or even Benoit and some combo of the Horsemen. You are just like these idiots who think you have to know how to "work" to be successful. I don't want to see the Road Warriors work a style similar to the Midnight Express. Their job is to sell for the Road Warriors. That is a tried and true method for success. Why screw up a good thing?

 

[Makaveli31]

Having seen HeenanGorilla destroy you it's almost cruel.. but..

I guess his rebuttal of

Hey, remember when I brought up Razor Ramon? Case closed on that nut.

was enough to win the debate in your eye....hmmmm.....figures.

 

[Jonyboyuk2]

I would say that Ultimate Warrior fell in to this category. And the Bushwhackers did too. With LOD/RW, they were made to look good by their opponents worldwide. Once they had become an unstoppable force gimmick (which was very early on), wrestlers would fall over themselves to work with them as it meant money - and they were only too happy to do the job properly to enhance the gimmick of the LOD/RW's.

Warrior was the same, he was super over because of the stars who he worked with - especially Perfect, Rude and Hogan. Not only this, I always found the Bushwhackers were super over in the early 90s and yet all they did was lick the fans faces.

As for some people mentioning Hogan, he was actually a hard worker - and this is personified by his work in Japan when he went over there to give his face a rest on USA/European TV - he would work technical matches that he would not do in the other parts of the world - and he was still over.

 

[HeenanGorilla]

I would say that Ultimate Warrior fell in to this category. And the Bushwhackers did too. With LOD/RW, they were made to look good by their opponents worldwide. Once they had become an unstoppable force gimmick (which was very early on), wrestlers would fall over themselves to work with them as it meant money - and they were only too happy to do the job properly to enhance the gimmick of the LOD/RW's.

Warrior was the same, he was super over because of the stars who he worked with - especially Perfect, Rude and Hogan. Not only this, I always found the Bushwhackers were super over in the early 90s and yet all they did was lick the fans faces.

As for some people mentioning Hogan, he was actually a hard worker - and this is personified by his work in Japan when he went over there to give his face a rest on USA/European TV - he would work technical matches that he would not do in the other parts of the world - and he was still over.

I almost mentioned Warrior. I'd agree. Also, Duggan was always very over. He and the Bushwhackers were two examples of WWF superstars not needing belts.

 

[SD619]

I can't think of another act who stayed so over for so long after they were last great.

I think Sandman would be one of the best examples of this. His
ring work was abysmal, at best and his overall work was nothing to write home about.

 

[rmp0012002]

Some wrestlers just fall into the legends category. The Roadies, Flair, Piper and even Warrior in his short career. People will remember their past regardless of what their current production level is and get a pop. Flair and Piper could talk so well they never even had to get in the ring.

 

[Makaveli31]

I would say that Ultimate Warrior fell in to this category.

Warrior was a rather interesting. Perhaps THE most interesting of the names mentioned. No can deny the impact he had from '89-'91 as the second most popular WWF superstar behind Hogan and some would argue THE most popular superstar. WrestleMania 6 speaks for itself and the fact that remained over even after taking years off is a testament to how over the guy was.

My only question as it pertains to Warrior is how successful he would've been in the Monday Night War/Attitude Era where so much of the success was reality-driven. We could identify with Stone Cold...we could identify with the Outsiders. They were rebellious and "cool" they seemed like someone we would know. I don't how a guy with a late '80's / early '90's "comic book" look would've gotten over in the rugged Attitude Era where so much was based on believe ability and just the rawness of a character.

I think despite the initial pop and buzz alot of fans were disappointed with his runs in the late '90's. I didn't like his quick win vs HHH at WM 12, his feud with Goldust lacked the Warrior's trademark intensity and his WCW run was worse. The whole trap door and smoke and mirrors came off as corny and he capped it off by having his worst match vs Hogan at Halloween Havoc. To be honest, when he left WCW I didn't even notice.

But according the criteria, yes the Ultimate Warrior would definitely fit.

 

[THTRobtaylor]

I almost mentioned Warrior. I'd agree. Also, Duggan was always very over. He and the Bushwhackers were two examples of WWF superstars not needing belts.

Reality a lot of the guys then didn't need them cos they had a "gimmick object" that made a belt cumbersome... they'd lose what was making them popular by having one.

Much is made of Jake never getting a title, but he had the snake... Bossman had the nightstick, Duggan the 2x4... add a belt into those and you lose the pop when the snake goes on the opponent, Bossman would cuff them/twirl the stick at the start of the match or Duggan would clean house/do the HO!!! with thumb/plank of wood... They;d have to tote and show the belt etc...would have killed what was working. Even Piper never "looked right" with the IC title... Some COULD have gotten away with it... Rick Martel when he had Arrogance for example would have worked well as IC champ, but they also had Perfect.

Bushwhackers were different as their gimmick was ahem, licking each other... to be fair to Luke and Butch, they WERE capable of a hell of a lot more, but they were older talents and happy to do the comedy stuff for the pay after slicing themselves up for years.

I did mention Warrior, he fell into the category in that he stopped progressing as soon as he won the IC back from Rude/Rude stopped beating him into ring shape literally. He got complacent very quickly and a little like the LOD fed off his own rep rather than keep trying to be cutting edge. I always said even back in 1990, either Taker OR Warrior would be around a long time but not both. Taker was willing to change and seized the chance to improve as a worker once they stopped feeding him a giant every quarter. Warrior never saw working with guys like Rude as an opportunity but a step down.