Where do you stand on Affirmative Action?

[Money Inc.]

I'm currently in a political science class this summer, and the big debate on AA has recently came up. Knowing how heated the Cigar Lounge can get at times, I was wondering your guys opinions on the topic. I'm telling you the following story simply because my class ended with two people standing face to face screaming at each other while the teacher was wondering how to get it under control. I'm pretty sure debates wont' be happening in our class anymore, but the cigar lounge is forever.

Before I go on with my views and some of the classes views, I'd like to reveal the different types of races/sex involved in the class room. (Yes some people will think this unnecessary but I feel it helps you understand more of the setting)

Also... some people really don't have a clue what AA is, and they just go by what they've been told to say.

So in my class we have:

6 Females:
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2 Caucasian Females
2 African American Females
1 Asian Female (I believe she is South Korean)

7 Males:
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3 Caucasian Males (myself included)
1 Latino Male (Puerto Rican)
1 African American Male
1 Asian Male (Once again South Korean..the two are brother and sister)
And 1 half African American, half latino male

The Teacher is half African American, half Native American and is male.

The debate started out with one of our more talkative/outspoken males in the class calling out the females who refused to comment on AA. His point was Affirmative Action in this country is made out to look like the only people who it affects is African Americans. He than went on to say, the biggest beneficiary from AA happens to be the female race.

One of the African American males than added to the discussion that when writing his credentials down for college, he didn't want to check the African American check box, simply because he wanted to get into this hard school on merit, and not because the rules colleges/universities have to follow now (with a certain % of diversity among colleges/universities today)

Somewhere down the line, racism of course gets brought up into the argument (If you guys been to a diverse college, you know what I mean)

Somehow we went from talking to about AA which yes does lead into some racism, but we took a complete 180 into a different topic. The debate turned from AA to a minority getting shot by a police officer (the minority was unarmed) over the weekend and the "what if" question was brought up.

This lead to a White Female getting up and screaming "I'm tired of everything today leading into racism, you make it out to be racism even when there is nothing racist going on. If the minority that got shot wasn't African American he would of still been shot" This lead to a African American female standing up where the face off began.

Like mentioned before I am a Caucasian male (not racist) but I'm not very out spoken when racism gets brought up simply because the argument never gets anywhere. The point the two sides brought up were both horrible, and it turned from "what if" to "your white I'm black (or vice versa) fuck you"

So back onto the AA topic... lets look at the Pros and Cons of Affirmative Action (feel free to add some or tell me why you think some should be eliminated)


Pros:

Students Starting at a disadvantage need a boost (for instance, school funding is often funded by the area's taxes. If you happen to go to a school in a lower income area, the chances are your not getting the best supplies, teachers, etc for your future)


Affirmative Action is needed to compensate minorities who were forced through slavery and oppression.

Some stereotypes will never be given the chance to be broken without Affirmative Action: Personally I think this one needs to be eliminated because Stereotypes will never be eliminated with any race/sex/ethnicity.

Cons:


Affirmative Action leads to reverse discrimination


Eliminating it would lead to a truly color blind society: Once again personally I'd eliminate this because I feel racism will be around with any race/sex/ethnicity.

Success is labeled as a result of Affirmative Action, rather than hard work or ability: Once again like the African American male in my class that wanted to leave his race box unchecked simply because he wanted in on merit and not because they needed a certain % of diversity.

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Like I said before, feel free to add in some pros and cons and feel free to eliminate or talk about the ones listed about.

Q & A

1) What race/sex do you belong too?

2) What are your thoughts on Affirmative Action?

3) Do you think Affirmative Action should be eliminated all together?
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1) White Caucasian Male

2) I feel Affirmative Action fits in well in some areas, and at the same time is a good segway for some people to talk about racism. If used properly I feel AA can work, but I feel some of its highest supporters are the ones who are taking steps backwards for the whole group of supporters.

3) Not all together, but until some of its supporters decide to go the positive route, I feel it's going to feel like the true supporters are taking baby steps, where as the negative patrol are the ones causing.

So I guess I'm somewhat in the middle, I'm kind of curious to see if we have anybody on this board that is hardcore one way.

Note: If this thread has been done in the past, feel free to delete it and I apologize. I just felt it'd be a good cigar lounge topic since we had the debate in class recently.

 

[TheAnimal]

1) White caucasian male

Im kind of answering 2 and 3 together. I think as a world in many areas we have outgrown the need for it. People can only select from those who apply for the positions in question so in some cases it cannot be avoided that there are disproportionate numbers. But in other cases it can serve as hope to people who apply for elitist positions that they have a chance of getting them. But then it shouldn't lead to positive discrimination, because any discrimination is bad. But on the whole i think it is about the right person for the job and race/gender shouldnt come into it. I think even 20 years ago it was needed, but now people are valued more as individuals and treated equally so it generally it shouldnt be needed. I think with a lot of things, it is probably a case of 'who you know, not what you kno' rather than anything else. You could be outstanding in your application, but if the guy who gives the position is buddies with the other applicant then i think that is what swings it.

 

[Davi323]

1. White caucasian male.

2/3 (I am combining these as well, they seem to be two peas in a pod) Affirmative Action is one giant, epic fail towards ending racism. Think about what Affirmative Action actually implies...it implies that minorities cannot obtain anything without the help of the white men who established Affirmative Action in the first place. Whatever real, legitimate qualifications a minority may have isn't good enough, you still need the white man's help. Affirmative Action is incredibly condescending. It assumes that minorities cannot achieve anything without the help of whites. Isn't that by its very nature a very racist attitude?

Doesn't the existence of Affirmative Action only serve to continue the completely irrational way of judging someone by the color of their skin, by putting a separator between candidates for school, prospective employees, etc? If you hire someone who is less qualified than another candidate purely based on their skin color, as Affirmative Action would require, you are showing preferential treatment based on that skin color, and that is by it's very definition, racist. The only non-racist way to hire someone is to hire them based solely on their merits. Their qualifications. In fact, take the damn race question off the application. It should be completely irrelevant.

As long as you keep separating people by skin color, and have different rules based on that, racism will never truly be extinguished.

 

[Mighty NorCal]

Its ******ed, and defeats its own purpose. Why do I not care that Ron Simmons was the first black champion? Why, that be becuase im not racist.

Anything that has anything to do strictly with race is defeating your own purpose. Fair, equal, for everyone. Prove yourself upon the merit of your character and skill, absolutely nothing else.

 

[THE Madcap]

1) What race/sex do you belong too?

2) What are your thoughts on Affirmative Action?

3) Do you think Affirmative Action should be eliminated all together?
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1) I am black

2) Affirmative action makes me cringe and IMO does more to hinder racial tensions than help although i do understand why it exists

3) Like one of the posters above, if given the choice, I avoid filling out my race on forms, and when it came to job/uni applications, my name doesn't sound black, I don't sound black (horrible phrase, but anyway...) and if they don't know my race before interview, then I have got there on my own personal merits, not to fill a quota.

Whilst I don't agree with affirmative action, I do believe it has its place in certain situations. For example, the police and teaching. I say this speaking purely from a UK perspective. People of ethnic minorities in the UK do not trust the police, due to years of racial profiling, something even I have experienced. Having a quota of ethnice minorities in the police can actually help bring trust into the relationship between the police and society.

Similarly, with schooling, in many areas of London, young black kids are underperforming in school and often dropping out, partly because of a lack of black role models in their lives, if you believe what the media tells you. However, noone can understand a black kid more than someone who WAS one. In this instance, it may be preferable for schools to have GOOD teachers of certain races, to relate to their students better.

 

[antfarm612]

1) White male

2) Don't believe in it

3) Yes

First of all, I don't think any employer should be forced to hire someone they don't want to. I don't see how that can possibly be legal. Second, I don't think a more qualified person should be passed up for a less qualified person, especially in cases where people's lives are affected (fire-fighters, EMT's, etc.). Third, it makes minorities seem incompetent.

 

[LigerBomb]

1) What race/sex do you belong too?
Homo sapien/Y Chromosome

2) What are your thoughts on Affirmative Action?
Not much. Believing people of a certain ethnicity and/or background likely can't achieve what others can due to the limiting factor of their inherent ancestry, cultural history, etc., thereby requiring assistance like AA seems a bit condescending.
"Why hello there poor disenfranchised minority. We'd like to bring you up to our level and standards. Now clearly based solely on your own hard work, abilities and merit we believe it would be almost impossible for you to attain the ranks of your majority counterparts. Therefore we've created a program that allows for, and even accepts, your innately inferior skills and abilities and instead "levels the playing field"! Now you no longer have to worry about not being able to be the most qualified! No, you don't need to thank us, it's the least we can do."
Seems like AA is just subtle "white man's burden" style racism and misplaced "white guilt".

3) Do you think Affirmative Action should be eliminated all together?
Yes I do. Or expand it to be a program to assist the socioeconomically poor (regardless of sex/ethnicity) in obtaining the same status and advantages of the rich.

 

[Soapguy]

We actually just conducted a study at my college that found that even when level of education and level of job-specific qualifications were controlled for that individuals are more likely to hire individuals like themselves. It's not a new experiment either, it's been done several times before with similar results. There's also multiple studies showing that people with ethic sounding names are less likely to get a call. (Keep in mind, that education and job related experience were controlled for here as well).

So, I get where the law is coming from, but I don't think it's completely encompassing everything it needs to encompass and if it were to someway do that, it would still manage to make things that much more difficult for employees. Because the "people like to hire people like them" thing stretches beyond race and gender and in order to get this law to do exactly what they're intending it to do it would be far too difficult and intrusive to encompass everyone that needs to be included. So, maybe there's a better way to go about doing things. I couldn't honestly say I know which way that is, but the current way has holes in it.

I'd be lying if I said I didn't think the problem need to be remedied in some way, because with white males sitting in the majority of the employer seats it does create a bit of a disadvantage for everyone else, even though I firmly believe a majority of employers aren't purposely excluding anyone.

 

[Cena's Little Helper]

I'm for affirmative action as long as it's not based on race. Studies show the same thing over and over again: the overwhelming majority of racial minorities being accepted into college are those who are financially well-off and who come from good, unbroken homes.

Affirmative action based on race needs to be done away with, and a needs-based affirmative action should take its place. People who can overcome destitution and a lack of parenting are much more deserving than those who don't have to overcome these obstacles, but who may be African-American, Puerto Rican, or Asian.

 

[Decarow]

1.) White male

2.) I don't believe in it

3.) I'm all for equality. I think a person that's as qualified as me should provide competition. While at the same time, I don't want a person off the streets wearing saggy pants with a spinner belt buckle who mispronounces words on purpose to somehow make a statement to the world that they are proud to be who they are and dropped out of high school to sell records and drugs.. to get a job when I'm obviously more suitable.

I don't believe things should be handed to you. You have to earn a good life.

 

[Hawkeye]

I'm a black male first off.

I completely agree with Tdigs,and I actually never thought of it that way. Affirmative Action in its current form has been useless for the past decade,maybe even the past two. I've never felt like I was at a disadvantage due to my race,and I'm actually doing well for myself.I'm a mid level manager at one of the largest grocers in the country(Kroger) and I'm going to college on a full ride scholarship,and I'm 19. The way I see it,the sky's the limit for me, and I've never been given reason to feel otherwise.

But back to my point,Affirmative Action would do well to change it's beneficiaries,because there are no boundaries based on race,but as Tdigs said,poverty is a disadvantage that doesn't discriminate.They should begin to shift they're focus to people who are actually at a disadvantage,not people who like to play the victim.

Side Note: There's an Affirmative Action building on my campus. It's been abandoned for the past three years i'm told. Most of the staff don't even know it's there.

 

[Captain Jive]

1) white male
2) its useless
3) yes

It had its place after segregation ended, but now its worthless. I also believe that if its going to be around, then it should be used to help those who need it. If someone deserves to be in college but cant afford it, then they should be helped. But in 14 years when my son tries to get into college, if he is turned down simply because they have enough white people, then that helps no one. I do not agree with having scholarships for people only because of their race, that in itself is racist. Scholarships and jobs should go to who deserves it most.

 

[FromTheSouth]

I think the idea of need based acceptance is even worse. At most universities the loss of income would be detrimental to the students that are there. If you let more hardship cases in than you already do (and all universities have a fund to let enough students in who can't afford it without harming the overall quality of the university), you are doing nothing but downgrading in other areas. Now, the students who can pay to get in are getting a lower quality education because there is less money to hire elite professors and more classes are taught by TA's. A great deal is already done both by universities and private entities to meet the financial needs of deserving students.

As far as hiring practices go, affirmative action is outdated and unneeded. Most large corporations are far too interested in profit to let something as insignificant as race get in the way. Furthermore, as a minority (Jew), I know that I would never want to work anywhere where I was hired for anything other than ability and potential.

 

[HBK-aholic]

Affirmative Action - the idea that discrimination stops discrimination? Lol, okay then. Would love to meet the person whose mind THAT sounded right in.

First, places in jobs/universities should be based on talent, and nothing else. A well off white male with more talent should get the place over a black woman who isn't as talented and would only be accepted because of Affirmative Action. Wouldn't you feel a bit shit about yourself, anyway, knowing you only got a place because of race/gender? When I was in High School there was a trip to learn about hospital careers and how it all worked, which me and a couple of friends put our names down for. One of these friends was white, the other, Bangladeshi. The Bangladeshi friend went, because the trip was 'For minorities' - how absolutely stupid and backwards is that? How much complaining would there be if the school ran a trip 'For Whites'? Any type of 'positive discrimination' needs to be stopped, and people need to learn to look PAST race or gender. Something that won't happen when it's mentioned due to schemes like this trying to 'right wrongs of the past' or whatever they think it's doing.

 

[PowerUp5000]

I too was faced with this one in college, we discussed this one and I was the only person to speak up and call "Bullshit". If that wasn't depressing enough, the teacher actually tried to validate this crap to me by trying to pull on heart-strings and give me this sob story about the poor and unfortunate. You know what I told him? "Guess what man, I am the poor and unfortunate but no one gave me a free ride because I'm white. I had to bust my ass, and acquire a large debt to go here. If I wasn't a borderline genius I would have been shown the door. If I had been a minority I would have been given an excuse and a hand out."

I feel even worse for the minorities though. There most definitely is a stigma attached to AA. Like the credit to his race above me said " I don't want to get by on anything but my own efforts and merits". Good for you man, I respect the hell out that. When someone gets in because of the color of their skin, that does a disservice to them and the school.

Another thing about AA is that it allows people who aren't even smart enough to go to college right in, wasting valuable money, time, and resources. Not to mention, that just sets the student up for a fall. There have been many instances where a minority student couldn't pass a simple entry exam, but because there were a minority and the school needed to make their minority quota, it was overlooked even though these tests showed that the individual would struggle and wasn't prepared for college.

In my class I said aloud that no one should get a free pass based on the color of their skin especially when it disallows someone who can afford it, is smart enough to make it, and has worked hard to get there, their opportunity at higher learning. The University of Michigan had a particular situation we studied where that very thing happened and wasn't just an isolated incident.

I don't care who you are, what color you are, where you come from, or how poor you are, you can make it if you want and you have the opportunity. The thing is, if you do come from the inner city, from a poor family and so on, you have a choice. You can choose to be a victim of circumstance, or you can choose to make something of yourself, I did. I come from a poor family, and I had every opportunity to get swept up in gangs, drugs, and to make every excuse why I couldn't make it. I chose to make it. The odds are what you make them.