What was missing from the invasion angle?

[CM Steel]

In 2001 WWF/E chairman bought out WCW and those who remained with WCW signed over with the WWF/E. When the WCW people were re-introduced in the new storyline they merged with the old ECW guys to form the alliance. For months the WWF/E guys feuded with the alliance on WWF/E TV. Us as life long wrestling fans at that time were in wrestling heaven at that time as we finally got a chance to see the "Monday Night Wars" fought on the same network! Just one problem, the key players from the WCW side didn't come over after WCW was bought out by Vince McMahon.

We didn't get a chance to see guys like Bill Goldberg, Scott Steiner, Sting, and the nWo until a year later (well maybe not Sting). We saw the Lance Storm's, the Mike Awesome's, the Chuck Palumbo's, and the Hugh Morrus's. Booker T, Diamond Dallas Page and Rob Van Dam were up there but that's about it.

But what or rather who else was missing from the invasion angle?

I would have to go with the backbone's of the old ECW & WCW: Benoit (injuried), Guerrero (released "at that time"), Malenko (retired), and Mysterio (working dark matches). Those guys are players who played a big role in both ECW & WCW. And if they were active in the WWF/E at that time during the invasion angle they could have played a huge role in the storyline feud. The road not traveled!

But in your own opinion's. What was missing from the invasion angle in 2001?

 

[Nate DaMac]

Those guys could have played a part in the angle, but only Benoit had reached the main event level in WCW, albeit briefly. They wouldn't have made it much better, those aren't the names you think of when you think of the WCW All-Stars. You needed Sting, nWo, Luger, Hogan, Flair, or Goldberg. DDP wasn't a bad get but they made him into a joke fairly quickly.

 

[CM Steel]

Those guys could have played a part in the angle, but only Benoit had reached the main event level in WCW, albeit briefly. They wouldn't have made it much better, those aren't the names you think of when you think of the WCW All-Stars. You needed Sting, nWo, Luger, Hogan, Flair, or Goldberg. DDP wasn't a bad get but they made him into a joke fairly quickly.

Ric Flair debut was the night after the invasion angle storyline was over at Survivor Series 2001. Lex Luger wasn't re-signing with the WWF/E and was on bad terms with Vince McMahon. And like I said Sting didn't and most likely will never sign with the WWE Nate! So you shouldn't really have brought his name back up! The New World Order was meant to be after the invasion angle as they were their own army in general. And Hulk Hogan is/was a one man show anyways so he would have had to be brought in like how Flair was brought in.

Anymore "WCW All-Stars" Nate?

 

[Nate DaMac]

Ric Flair debut was the night after the invasion angle storyline was over at Survivor Series 2001. Lex Luger wasn't re-signing with the WWF/E and was on bad terms with Vince McMahon. And like I said Sting didn't and most likely will never sign with the WWE Nate! So you shouldn't really have brought his name back up! The New World Order was meant to be after the invasion angle as they were their own army in general. And Hulk Hogan is/was a one man show anyways so he would have had to be brought in like how Flair was brought in.

Anymore "WCW All-Stars" Nate?

You have to have some sort of mental deficiency. I was stating that nothing could have been done to resolve this angle short of bringing in some of the guys that I named. I realize that they were unable to get those guys at that time. I live in the future as well.

You asked if there was anything else missing, I'm saying no. Fucking idiot.

 

[CM Steel]

You have to have some sort of mental deficiency. I was stating that nothing could have been done to resolve this angle short of bringing in some of the guys that I named. I realize that they were unable to get those guys at that time. I live in the future as well.

You asked if there was anything else missing, I'm saying no. Fucking idiot.

I swear to God that you are filled with hate Nate! You say that I have a mental deficiency while you say that you live in the future? This is the old school section am I right dummy? And in wrestling you have to think outside of the box as well as in it. Those guys that I had mention on the post had history with both ECW & WCW. So they would have played a big factor. Your naming some sort of fantasy dream team in your hateful mind their Nate. I don't think that the WWE at that time could hold that much of the former WCW roster at that one time. There is something that's called a salary cap there Nate.

Think with your brain not your ass asshole!

 

[shandy]

I swear to God that you are filled with hate Nate! You say that I have a mental deficiency while you say that you live in the future? This is the old school section am I right dummy? And in wrestling you have to think outside of the box as well as in it. Those guys that I had mention on the post had history with both ECW & WCW. So they would have played a big factor. Your naming some sort of fantasy dream team in your hateful mind their Nate. I don't think that the WWE at that time could hold that much of the former WCW roster at that one time. There is something that's called a salary cap there Nate.

Think with your brain not your ass asshole!

I'm siding with Nate on this one (apologies if you are ******ed because I have read some of your posts on other threads)

You asked what could be done to make the angle better then have a go when he makes the only logical solution. It doesn't matter why it couldn't be done, the question was asking as a fan what would we have liked to see to make the angle a success.

 

[dvddmm]

onethingithink was missing fro the invasion was Triple H.stephanie and shane, i dont think the wwe would have won.

 

[tvcolosi]

I swear to God that you are filled with hate Nate! You say that I have a mental deficiency while you say that you live in the future? This is the old school section am I right dummy? And in wrestling you have to think outside of the box as well as in it. Those guys that I had mention on the post had history with both ECW & WCW. So they would have played a big factor. Your naming some sort of fantasy dream team in your hateful mind their Nate. I don't think that the WWE at that time could hold that much of the former WCW roster at that one time. There is something that's called a salary cap there Nate.

Think with your brain not your ass asshole!

To make it clear, the "I live in the future" line, I think he was referring to he knows what happened in that angle. Knowing what you know now, and didn't know then, makes your thoughts of the angle something different. Its not that they "couldn't get" Sting, Hogan, Nash, Steiner, Goldberg and so on. It's they were getting 7 figure contracts to sit at home for 8-16 months. they could have got $0.50 on the dollar to go back to work, or collect the entire amount sitting at home not taking bumps. Had WWE offered to pay them that much, a lot of those guys would have came. We know this because as soon as their guaranteed money ran up, they all went back to work, all with WWE with the exception of Sting (who shortly there after went to TNA).

What was missing, one of those guys and Eric Bishoff. DDP and Booker weren't big enough names to "invade". Put that group with Sting or Nash or Goldberg at the front I think we would have a much different opinion of this angle.

In this order..
1. Sting
2. Goldberg
3. Flair
4. Hogan
5. Nash

 

[entertainer101]

Ric Flair, Steiner Brothers, Goldberg, DDP actually being used the way he was in WCW rather than a stalker, Original NWO members.

The WCW roster was pretty much non existent, so it really wasn't what people were expecting.

 

[AAPTSLTS]

The biggest names they did get, like Booker T and DDP, were largely wasted. In Vince's mind, WCW wrestlers were second rate, and that is why they were never booked to be a real threat. I'm not sure it would have been any better even with Sting, the nWo, and Goldberg. They might have been as poorly booked as every other WCW and ECW wrestler was. So I guess my answer would be competent booking was what was missing, and bigger names might have helped if Vince had allowed them to look like a legitimate threat.

 

[HiddenInPlainView]

The thing that the invasion was missing was the WCW presence. None of the guys that came to mind when you thought of the WCW were there. Rather than the big names they had Lance Storm, Hugh Morrus, Sean O'Haire, and Mike Awesome. Just look at Team WCW at the winner take all match at Survivor Series. The team of Stone Cold, Kurt Angle, Booker T, RVD, and Shane McMahon were pitted against Team WWF. Only two of them could really be considered WCW/ECW guys. While Austin did spend time in both promotions he was a WWF guy. In the biggest match in this huge storyline Booker and RVD, who are both great talents, were the best that they could do for what should have been a dream match. My dream matchup for that would have been The Rock, Undertaker, Stone Cold, Kurt Angle, and Kane against Sting, Ric Flair, Scott Steiner, Goldberg, and Hogan.

 

[BillAlfonso]

I think they should've never had the Invasion Angle, if they did, they should've waited until all of the stars were available. That main event 10 man tag at the "Invasion" PPV should read as:

Austin, The Rock, HHH, Brothers of Destruction vs Hogan, Raven, Booker T(he was the WHC at the time), The Outsiders or The Dudleys.

There should've also been other key matches of the night like: The Hardys vs RVD & Sabu w Bill Alfonso, Kurt Angle vs Tazz, The APA vs The Outsiders or Dudleys depending on who didn't make the main event.

Another thing that was missing the the actual intention of making the guys from WCW/ECW look good in the end even after their inevitable defeat.

Honestly, in my opinion, I would've found a way to keep each company going as different subsidiaries of Titan Sports. I would've had Shane run WCW and let Heyman run ECW and run some occasional inter-promotion events so that fans can have their "dream matches."

 

[relentless1]

they should have waited a year, bring in wcw guys one by one up unitl then, no mention of a wcw or anything like that then after wrestle mania 18, have eric bischoff and the nWo start the invasion, by then youd have nWo, Eric Bischoff, Booker T, DDP, Ric Flair, Scott Stiener, Lance Storm invading/ turning on WWF with the addition of Chris Benoit, Eddie Gurrerro, Chris Jericho and the Big Show, feud WCW vs WWF til WM 19, you could have brought Goldberg and Mysterio in by 2003 and had a big blowout winner take all card at that wrestle mania, including Bischoff vs Mcmahon and the WCW/WWF World title unification

 

[DirtyD79]

The biggest names they did get, like Booker T and DDP, were largely wasted. In Vince's mind, WCW wrestlers were second rate, and that is why they were never booked to be a real threat. I'm not sure it would have been any better even with Sting, the nWo, and Goldberg. They might have been as poorly booked as every other WCW and ECW wrestler was. So I guess my answer would be competent booking was what was missing, and bigger names might have helped if Vince had allowed them to look like a legitimate threat.

That was the biggest problem. Vince McMahon just viewed the invasion angle as his own personal victory lap over WCW and ECW. The problem is burying all those wrestlers doesn't do you much good when they're now in your company. Vince pissed away what could have been one of the biggest storylines ever just to salve his own ego.

 

[Toroc102]

Agreed with most others on here, what was missing from the Invasion Storyline, was Vince's support.

The only true Main-Eventer from WcW they brought in was DDP, and they booked him to fail from the beginning. Having him come in as a heel, as a stalker, and against Taker, AND seemingly separate from the Invasion? Buried from the beginning(you would almost think it was symbolism, like Vince having Undertaker bury WcW's biggest star, I have no doubt that Vince never intended to give WcW any shine. Seriously, DDP was a HUGE star in WcW, he got a huge pop when he took his mask off, people wanted to cheer him and they buried him so bad he wasn't even a player for the rest of his career).

Besides that its not like they needed EVERY single star from WcW. Having Flair or Sting ALL BY THEMSELVES would've elevated the angle 10 fold. They say they didn't have the money for it. BS, I wonder how many celebrities and music acts they wasted money on in 2001. And besides that, the opportunities that the Invasion storyline presented should've off set any cost that bringing in a couple of WcW guys would've incurred. Like I said, the whole idea was a burial from the beginning.

 

[I'mTheJanetty13]

That was the biggest problem. Vince McMahon just viewed the invasion angle as his own personal victory lap over WCW and ECW. The problem is burying all those wrestlers doesn't do you much good when they're now in your company. Vince pissed away what could have been one of the biggest storylines ever just to salve his own ego.

This is your answer. It wasn't about what was missing. It was about what was there, McMahon's massive ego. I realize DDP wasn't the biggest name WCW had, but he was a major player towards the endof the company and how was he treated? He was given some horrible stalker angle and became an afterthought. Having some of the bigger names might have given the angle more legs, but it still was going to be about WWE going over strong.

And as far as the OP, seriously? Benoit, Malenko, Guerrero and Mysterio? Benoit was the only one of those four who at that point would have even been a blip in the angle. Mysterio would have gotten manhandled by Big Show or Kane in a big brawl. Malenko and Guerrero would have been decorations in the locker room shots they would show.

 

[FlairFan2003]

This has been discussed to death in other posts. Nothing could have been done to save the angle without adding the main event players of WCW. DDP was the only main event guy they brought in. Booker was a career tag team wrestler who had a brief run in the upper mid card in 1998. His rising to the top of the card at the end of the company was viewed by fans as more indicative of how bad the company was and how little they had left. He was never on the level of WCW's top stars.

Two things worked against the success of the angle in terms of WWE's ability to get legit stars to add credibility to The Invasion Force. The guaranteed contracts were one. Why should a Nash or Goldberg jump to sign when they could collect on their Time Warner deals, waiting till their was more interest in them individually, giving them better ground for negogiations for a return. Second. a number of WCW's top stars were viewed as major risks, guys WWE wasnt crazy about adding to their rostes due to their behind the scenes issues. WWE wasnt heavily interested in Scott Steiner due to his extremely bad rep in WCW, plus he had left WWE on bad terms before. Scott Hall's drug & alcohol issues had dogged him through out his WCW tenure. Brett Hart & Randy Savage were on terrible terms with WWE, plus Hart's injury severely limited his value. Lex Luger had also been subject to rumors of bad backstage behavior, disinterested, lazy performances, etc. A change of scenery might have revitalized him but he also left WWE on bad terms and had a growing drug issue. WWE saw potential with Hogan & Nash but they came with their own headaches, though not enough under the right financial terms that WWE wouldnt be interested. When the buyout first happened, WWE reportedly approached Flair, Sting, & Goldberg. That was it.

Essentially, WWE was making a lot of money already with a star laden roster so they werent in need of the "troubkemakers" from the WCW roster. They had no control over the others who saw more value in delaying their debuts, waiting for better deals while collecting their Time Warner contracts.

A better thread would be one that evaluated the success & contributions of the WCW talent aftev they switched. Curt Henning, Buff Bagwell, & Hall were cut for personal issues almost immediately after joining. Goldberg was clearly a success until he voluntarily quit the business. Steiner not as much, plus he again left on bad terms. Nash made significant contributions until his body broke down and he couldnt continue full time. Same with DDP. Booker T lasted several years and remains on good terms with the company. He had two major post Invasion runs, facing HHH at WrestleMania and starring on the Smackown brand during his King Booker heel turn. Hogan only stayed full time for less than a year but had maximum impact with his short term stints against Randy Orton, HBK, & Vince McMahon. Flair was a major contributor for much of the decade although he spent long stints as a manager and didnt wrestle.

 

[Hollywood Naitch]

The top stars in WCW were never going to come over to the WWE at the time of the Invasion, they were being paid their guaranteed contracts for another year/18 months or so without having to work. If they had come to WWE they would have lost a lot of money, so of course they were going to stay home.

IF the likes of Nash, Sting, Goldberg etc had been a part of the Invasion, of course it would have been more successful, and a much bigger deal. The likes of Kurt Angle and Stone Cold would not have needed to jump over to WCW to give the faction enough main event level talent and the possible matches- Goldberg v Austin, Sting v Undertaker etc would have been phenomenal.

My personal preference would have been for WCW to have invaded with ERIC BISCHOFF as the figurehead, and Paul Heyman remaining in charge of ECW rather than Shane aND Steph buying the companies and the angle turning into a McMahon family feud. If the big names had been involved and the actual people who ran those wrestling companies had been their on-screen "owners" then the angle would have been alot bigger, man it could have been huge.

However, as the STARS didnt join WWE in time, I would definitely have had Chris Jericho and Big Show defect to WCW, as they were a former WCW wrestler with name value, rather than Angle who had no previous history with WCW. Also, I would have added Chris Benoit (if healthy) and Jerry Lynn to the ECW faction. A former ECW champion, Lynn was a fantastic talent. I have no idea why he was never part of the Invasion angle when pretty much all ex-ECW wrestlers like Justin Credible, Rhyno, Raven etc all defected to the Alliance. Lynn could have had great matches for the European title, or even the IC title. He was horribly wasted in WWE.

Mike Awesome should have been made a bigger deal during the Invasion. The man was an absolute beast and had all the tools to be a major star. He could have been something special in wrestling, but was again another star with potential to be buried- I read somewhere than Undertaker thought he couldn't work?

The Invasion remains my faovurite period in wrestling as a fan. I loved it, seeing stars I never really got to watch, new feuds, defections, new alliances etc. It was alot of fun, but it COULD and SHOULD have been much better. The angle could have lasted for severalyears if done right, with WCW eventually getting control of either Raw or Smackdown and directly "competing" with WWE....god the possibilities are ENDLESS.
There could even have been a WWE/WCW Wrestlemania...

 

[HBsam31]

That was the biggest problem. Vince McMahon just viewed the invasion angle as his own personal victory lap over WCW and ECW. The problem is burying all those wrestlers doesn't do you much good when they're now in your company. Vince pissed away what could have been one of the biggest storylines ever just to salve his own ego.

I agree with this 100%. Vince was the cause of the invasion not working as it should. He just wanted to rub it in when in reality I think he would have made more money if he had just put his ego aside and let WCW/ECW look good. THe absence of all the big name WCW stars was a factor in this to. THe guys that came over I didn't even really equate them with WCW. I was a long time WCW fan (WWF fan first, but I loved WCW too), and the angle would have benefitted from having the Flairs and the Stings come over too. I didn't hate the angle as much as everyone else seemed to, but it was definitely lacking.

 

[Mr. HD]

The angle itself, IMO, fizzled by September. The summer portion of it was good, but they should've pushed Booker and DDP more instead of moving Austin and Angle over to The Alliance.

It also didn't help that The Radicalz were all M.I.A., Triple H was injured, and Road Dogg and Chyna were M.I.A. Sting said he wouldn't work with Vince. Scratch him out. I could've loved to see Goldberg, Rey Mysterio, Ric Flair, and The Steiners in there though.

Would've loved to see a little DX reunion in the middle of the Invasion. I've been waiting for a DX/nWo showdown for a while. Then again, the nWo is that group that does things on their terms and an army in and of itself. They would've been a separate entity from the Invasion itself. I don't think it would've worked out. WCW was battling with the nWo for years and all of a sudden, nWo wants to play good and help WCW and ECW out?

Sure The Invasion angle wasn't what we all hoped for. But in the end, we got Rock vs Hogan, Rock vs Goldberg, Rock & Austin vs the nWo. It didn't happen during the Invasion, but they all still happened.

The Invasion angle could've been better, but I'm fine with what we got.

 

[King Patrick Star]

I think the Invasion angle was missing 3 elements.

Number 3, they were missing the ECW Championships. Without the Extreme Championship Wrestling Titles, ECW the faction looked like hired guns for WCW. They were like WWE’s Union, or NWO’s B-Team, or TNA’s World Elite.

Number 2, they were missing the WCW Legends. Without the World Championship Wrestling Legends, WCW the faction looked like place holders for their company’s Titles. Booker T. handing the United States Title to Kanyon was not a great idea. A tournament would have been better. The Natural Born Thrillers dropping the WCW Tag Titles to the Brothers Of Destruction was not a great idea. Anything but dropping WCW Titles to WWE SuperStars would have been better. The World Title and Cruiserweight Title were handled a little better, but there is room for improvement.

Number 1, they were missing time. If the Invasion angle continued, I believe WCW and ECW could still be running today. I think WCW could have taken Smackdown’s spot and ECW would have started as the 3rd brand earlier and could have kept the spot NXT took. The WWE essentially did this anyway, but on their terms.

What we got wasn’t so bad, but yes, it could have been better.

 

[IT Factor]

The "invasion" angle was one of the most poorly executed storylines that could have been something much better. In short, WWE was trying to get WCW over by having unknowns run the invasion. You didn't have Hogan, Hall, Nash, Sting, Goldberg, the Steiners, etc who made WCW big league. Fans notice what is being portrayed and can spot phony material and differentiate it from reality. The WCW invasion didn't work because it was pretending to be a real WCW invasion with virtually no big names from that organization leading the charge. It is really that simple.

 

[BretHitmanHart92]

What was missing? Are you kidding me?

How about Vince taking the time to establish WCW as a separate brand. Give them SmackDown or their own show.

Oh and most importantly how about signing the big names that fans actually wanted to see in a "dream" WCW vs. WWF feud? Hogan, Flair, Hall, Nash, Goldberg, Steiner, Sting, Bischoff.

 

[pyrusane]

I read all of these posts talking about how Vince "should have brought in Sting, Hogan, Nash, Flair, Goldberg" and blah blah blah, making it sound like he had a choice. When the Invasion angle started, WWF brought in guys that had existing contracts with WCW. Those bigger names that everyone keeps mentioning had contracts with Time Warner, not WCW. Goldberg did an interview during that time with PWI, and he was asked why he hadn't gone to the WWF yet. His response was that he could sit at home and make a million dollars a year to watch TV, or he could take the buyout, earn half as much money, and go back into the ring and start abusing his body in matches again. He said it was a no-brainer that he was going to take the money and the rest period, and I imagine that was how they all felt.

Other people are saying "well, he should have just waited until those guys were available before he started the Invasion." That makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. When Vince bought WCW he bought the contracts of all of those guys that he DID include in the Invasion. Some of you mental giants are now suggesting that he should have just paid those guys to sit at home for a year waiting for the contracts of guys he wasn't paying to expire. Besides the fact that this would have been an incredible waste of money and talent, this would have also given WCW an entire year to fall out of people's memory. Look at how harshly we view WCW these days. Vince needed to move quickly, as there were a lot of WCW fans who didn't like WWF, and the only chance he had to try to capture those fans was to start the Invasion as soon as possible, before they gave up on seeing their WCW stars again. He probably would have started it even sooner, except for one small problem; none of the WCW guys could wrestle in a WWF ring.

Booker T did an interview either just before or just after the Invasion angle started, I can't remember the exact timeline, and he mentioned that one of the biggest problems he had in making the transition was learning how to wrestle in a WWF ring. First, the ring design was different, i.e. the mat responded differently under their feet. I can't remember now if it was the WCW ring or the WWF ring that had more give under the mat, but it was a big difference that the WCW guys had to adjust to. The bigger issue was the size of the ring, though. If I remember the dimensions correctly, the WCW ring was 24 feet wide and the WWF ring was 28 feet wide. Those numbers may be wrong but I do know the difference in width was four feet. This may seem minor but it isn't. Booker mentioned that in one of his first workouts in the WWF ring he was running the ropes, went to make his turn and fell on his ass because the ropes weren't there; he hadn't run far enough. He had spent years learning to run the ropes and perform his moves in the smaller ring, so he felt like he had to learn how to wrestle all over again. This wouldn't have been an issue for the guys that had experience in a WWF ring...but all of those guys were still getting paid millions to eat Cheetos and watch porn. Before the WCW guys could debut and seem like even a minimal threat, they had to learn how to work in a larger ring that reacted differently under their feet.

People tend to shit all over the first WCW match in a WWF ring, which put Buff Bagwell against Booker T for the WCW Title. Thsi match was terrible in large part because the two were not used to the new ring yet, so a lot of the match was rest holds to try to hide that fact. Of course the fans shit all over it, and that reaction led to Vince changing the entire focus of the Invasion. I've read that the original plan was for the Shane McMahon led WCW to be a face contingent, but after the reaction to that match Vince scuttled the idea and cast them all as heels. This was also the reason DDP got the stalker gimmick, because if he had been a part of the main Invasion storyline it would have been too likely that he would have gotten a face reaction in a heel stable.

 

[BretHitmanHart92]

It's crazy to think that Vince couldn't have waited until the bigger names became free agents. He should have absolutely done that. He could have held off on DDP, Booker T, Palumbo, O'Haire, Kidman, etc. joining until they got a show for them up and running.

Your post is ridiculous. Vince was impatient and it cost them one of the greatest storylines they could have ever done. Hogan, Hall, Nash and Flair became available by the end of 2001/beginning of 2002. Vince couldn't have waited 6 months or so to bring in those guys? He could have brought in Bischoff, Goldberg and Steiner. All the big names joined eventually AFTER the invasion angle.

Vince blew it. He totally blew it. There's no excuses.