Week 2: The D-Man -versus- General Disarray

Discussion in 'Debator's League 2009' started by Mr. TM, Aug 9, 2009.

  1. Mr. TM

    Mr. TM Throwing a tantrum

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    The better asset to the Professional Wrestling World? Randy Savage vs RVD

    General Disarray is the home debater, he gets to choose which side of the debate he is on first, but he has 24 hours.

    Remember to read the rules. This thread is only for the debaters.
     
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  2. gd

    gd Plump, Juicy User

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    I'm taking Savage's side. D Man can go first.
     
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  3. D-Man

    D-Man Gone but never forgotten.

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    I'll pass, I'd rather you go first. After all, you got to pick the side.
     
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  4. gd

    gd Plump, Juicy User

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    Any fan of pro wrestlers is surely familiar with the names of Savage and Van Dam. Both were incredibley popular wrestlers and gave a lot to the professional wrestling world. However, it is also rather obvious that the bigger contributor of the two is the Macho Man Randy Savage.

    Randy Savage was one of the best and most popular wreslters ever in the WWF along side Hulk Hogan. He was 2 time WWF Champion as well as 4 time WCW Champion. When you think of old school wrestling Randy Savage is one of your first thoughts. Not only was he an entertaininer, he was also a great wrestler. His match with Ricky Steamboat at Wrestlemania 3 is widely regarded as one of the best matches of all time, not one of RVD's matches can shine a candle to it.

    Randy Savage was a great all around wrestler who was one of the first to utilize high flying moves, including his deavasting finisher the flying elbow. RVD is mostly known for being a spot monkey and nothing more than that. He was the biggest name in a wreslting company that wasn't even successful, and was an upper midcarder at best in the WWE.

    The bottomline is Randy Savage is better than RVD in every aspect of pro wrestling. He is more entertaining, better on the mic, better in the ring, an originator, more over with the fans, a bigger star in a bigger company, and overall just a better all around pro wreslter than RVD.
     
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  5. D-Man

    D-Man Gone but never forgotten.

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    Ok, so I apologize (once again) for taking so long to reply. However, this time, I had to do a bunch of research on this subject before creating a reply. This subject puts one of my top 3 favorite performers of all time against one of my top least favorites, so it kind of strikes a nerve with me.

    In order for me to properly debate on this subject, I had to tear myself away from being a wrestling fan since before Hulkamania was born. My old-school mentality may have biased my opinion, and I could not allow that to happen here. So, let the debate begin...

    First of all, and generally speaking, who are we debating here?
    In this week's debate, we are pitting old school versus new school. The golden-aged roots versus the action-packed, entertainment leveraged present/future of professional wrestling. While both of these wrestlers represent two completely different eras of the sport, their styles and influences are extremely similar. In order to truly differentiate the two, we need to look at them in a parallel way of thinking, without the biased views of who "paved the way." Traditionally, Randy Savage would always be the initial thought when pertaining to influencial superstars of wrestling based on chronology. So, what I'm trying to say is that it shouldn't matter who came first or second. The only thing that matters here is the individual stamp that these men put on the sport of professional wrestling, regardless of time and era.

    In one corner, you have Randy Savage: A second generation superstar that used agility and a top rope moveset in a time when professional wrestlers were getting over from muscular physiques and pugilistic brute force and ground technique. He was quick in the ring and wore attention-getting, stylistic robes the likes of Ric Flair. His feud with Ricky Steamboat is one of the most memorable feuds of the 80's, due to their similarity in wrestling style and chemistry.

    In the other corner, there is Rob Van Dam: A virtual nobody in the wrestling industry that arose from humble beginnings in Battle Creek, Michigan. He was a first generation superstar that came from absolutely nothing and rose to become one of the most popular professional wrestlers to ever enter the ring. He had a modern, everyday look and a laid-back charisma outside of the ring, but is one of the most exciting in-ring performers to ever exist (I'll elaborate later).

    So what makes them different? Not a whole lot, considering the comparison of what they brought to the table in the eras they performed in. But, everyone needs to understand the main reasons why Rob Van Dam has, unquestionably, made a larger impact on the sport of professional wrestling.

    Before I answer, let's define influence (as defined by dictionary.com): the action or process of producing effects on the actions, behavior, opinions, etc., of another or others

    1. Rob Van Dam received national attention in a 3rd tier promotion based solely on his skill and not on his controversy. Randy Savage achieved fame wrestling for one of the only two nationally syndicated wrestling programs going at the time.
    These facts influence future professional wrestlers and teaches them that their career can be only be what they make of it. Being in the WWE or TNA doesn't matter... if you have the right stuff, you can make a splash and become a star in ANY promotion that you are a part of.

    2. Rob Van Dam achieved fame and success with men like Jerry Lynn, Sandman, Taz, and Sabu. Van Dam got the most out of performers who were average at best. Savage needed Steamboat and Hogan to be relevant.
    Similar to my previous point, you do not need a top promotion or top of the world talent to become a relevant superstar in the world of professional wrestling.

    3. Savage was known for this agility and risk-taking. Rob Van Dam took everything Savage ever did in the ring and did it better, faster, harder, and with a greater degree of difficulty.
    Savage's "high-flying," "agile," and memorable moveset was more limited than everyone thinks. Over the past few days, I have watched COUNTLESS matches involving Savage, and his "high-flyer" arsenal is limited to nothing more than a top rope axe handle (in and outside the ring), a flying elbow, and clotheslining his opponent over the top rope as he jumped over the top and outside of the ring. Besides that, Savage was as grounded as every other professional wrestler that bored us in the 80's, 90's, and during our present product.

    Not to mention the fact that RVD is the innovator of professional wrestling's hardcore moveset. He created a style that was so ground breaking, an entire wrestling promotion gained national attention for being based around it. This created a chain-reaction in the likes of matches being molded out of RVD's wrestling style and the largest wrestling promotion in the world branding the product of RVD's former wrestling promotion!

    4. Rob Van Dam became the most famous independent wrestler in the world in the late 90's despite never winning his promotion's world title.
    This speaks for itself. He took the ECW TELEVISION TITLE (what?!?) and made it more popular than the promotion's world title! And, he gained this popularity by holding a third tier title in a third tier promotion!

    5. Randy Savage benefitted not only from the Hogan-rub, but from the Vince McMahon marketing machine. RVD did his own Marketing, grassroots style, and then brought his star with him to the WWF.
    In the WWE, Savage was booked strong from day one, and did little more than simply not disappoint people.
    On the other hand, despite none of the top bookers and creative team of the WWE believing in him, despite his well-documented drug habits, and despite his lack in physique and size, RVD still rose to obtain every major championship that the WWE offered. These championships included the prestigious WWE title, defeating the WWE's top superstar (John Cena) at a PAY PER VIEW molded in RVD's honor and while simultaneously holding the ECW championship!

    So, let's take a close look at all of these points I've stated. Now, like I said earlier, without the mentality of "who came first" or "who paved the way", you make the decision about who was more influencial. I think I've made it clear... it's ROB... VAN... DAM.

    PS - In reference to my first paragraph, if you were wondering who one of my favorite versus least favorite wrestlers were, Savage is one of my favorites and RVD is one of my least favorites. Shocking, isn't it? But I'll never let my personal feelings get in the way of pure facts, as stated above.
     
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  6. gd

    gd Plump, Juicy User

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    In summation, Savage was one of your favorites and you absolutely hate RVD with a passion. You seem like a pretty typical wrestling fan D Man, I don't know you that well but you're a smart guy who has probably been following wrestling for awhile, I'm sure there are many other fans like you who feel the same way in regards to Savage and RVD. Savage is just a more likeable guy and I'm sure he has many more fans than RVD.

    Their styles may be similar, but Savage did it first. He gave wrestling fans something new and exciting. Sure RVD may have jumped a little higher and landed with a little more impact, but it was much more special when Savage did it.

    Why do we have to look at them in a parallel way? I'm assuming it's to level the playing field. Savage did pave the way, he was the poster child for RVD and all other high flyers that came after him. He helped inspire hundreds of future wrestlers, there is even a wrestler that is pretty much a copy of him, Jay Lethal. Randy Savage was that important, he is a huge asset to the wrestling world.

    It should matter who came first, they did something different and innovative while the person who came second pretty much copied the first person, but put a little twist on what they did. Christopher Columbus was not the best exploring ever, but he was the first European to reach the Americas. That certainly makes him a better asset to exploring than the guy who went second, even if the second guy was slightly better. The era a wrestler wrestled in certainly affects how much of an asset they were to pro wrestling.

    And he was fucking Miss Elizabeth.

    RVD was pretty popular, but definetly not as popular as Savage ever was. I can assure you there are about twice as many Savage fans in the world than their are RVD fans in the world. As for his laid-back charisma, whatever the hell that is, how does that matter at all? It doesn't really affect what he did in the ring or for the wrestling industry.

    (dictionary.com)_asset- a useful and desirable thing or quality:
    Look, I can copy and paste definitions too, and mine actually coincides with the debate.

    Just because RVD was in a worse company that makes him a better asset? If Savage were in ECW at the same time as RVD, he would've been 10 times more popular. I'm not sure how RVD would've done in the WWF during Savage's days. The bottomline is I don't see how RVD was anymore useful or desireable by being in ECW. If you are a pro wrestler today you are still thinking about making it in one of the big promotions, there are only a small handful that dont'.

    Just because RVD was the best wrestler in the shit hole that was ECW it doesn't mean he was better than Savage. Just because some lady in the warehouse you work at looks good there, doesn't mean she is actually hot. She is only "office hot." When you go out to party later that night you see dozens of girls much hotter than her. RVD is only "office hot."

    As for Savage needing Steamboat and Hogan, I completely disagree. He was just as talented as each of those men in the ring, maybe even more talented. This is shown by some of the great matches he had with guy like Jake Roberts, Tito Santana, and Ted Dibiase, who certainly weren't "great" workers.

    RVD may have been more athletic and done things bigger and better, but that is how things athletics progress over time. Babe Ruth didn't hit the ball farther or homer more often than guys today, but since he was the power hitter ever he is recognized as a better asset to baseball. Guys on the PGA Tour hit the ball farther today, but that is because the sport has evolved. Bubba Watson hits the ball over 300 yds, but if someone like Greg Norman were playing today he'd do the same thing.

    Just because RVD may haven't jumped a little higher or had a little more hangtime it doesn't make him better than the man he got his high flying moveset from.

    What exactly did RVD do to innovate the hardcore movement? Just because he came up with the Rolling Thunder it doesn't make him an innovator.

    Pretty much the same as your first point. For some reason RVD wasn't good enough to win the World Title, so he had to settle for the World Title. When guys like Johnny Hotbody, Justin Credible, Mikey Wripreck, and Mike Awesome hold the World Title of course a decent guy with the TV Title will recieve some attention for doing some flippy shit and not completely sucking. Once again, I go back to my point that if RVD was so good, why didn't he hold the World Title?

    Once again, very similar to points 1 and 4, RVD wasn't good enough for Vince and the WWE to get completely behind him, and that's a positive thing? Just because he was able to win the WWE Title agianst a young John Cena thanks to Edge and Paul Heyman, that doesn't make him great. Sure it was a great moment, but he dropped the title a month later. The ECW Title he held was nothing more than a mid card title anyway.

    So by completey ignoring one of the main reasons Savage is better, you have determined that RVD is better?

    Savage, OOOOH YEEAHHH!

    I actually guessed that before reading this part. Despite the way you tried to twist your facts and turn one reason into 3 while ignoring something that makes Savage a much better asset than RVD, you still haven't proven much.

    In the end, Savage is a better asset because

    1. He paved the way for RVD and everywhere high flyer today by being the first.

    2. Randy Savage v. Ricky Steamboat at Wrestlemania 3, one of the greatest matches ever than is still an asset to wresting fans today.

    3. He did more than just flippys and hardcore spots like RVD, he was also a great technical wrestler.

    4. He was good enough to one of the biggest stars in the top promotion, he didn't have to waste his time in ECW like the "office hot" RVD.

    5. Savage was great on the mic, I've never heard an RVD promo that was anywhere close to great.

    All of these things make Savage more useful and desirable to the wrestling world than RVD.
     
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  7. D-Man

    D-Man Gone but never forgotten.

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    First and foremost, GD, I respect you in every way possible. If any of my replies become dry or offensive in any way, I did not intend it that way. This is merely a debate, and I post strongly for what I truly believe in.

    Yes, Savage was likable, but he became overshadowed by RVD as the years passed on and RVD's career accelerated. I wanted to point out my personal opinion to show everyone that fact outweighs opinion in any case, including this one.

    It is completely unfair to use chronology as an argument in this debate. Is it RVD's fault that he was born 18 years after Randy Savage? Just because one wrestler was born first doesn't mean that automatically makes them an "influence" on everyone that came after him. In my research, not once during RVD's career did he ever mention Randy Savage as being someone that influenced his style of wrestling. Hell, Jimmy Snuka came before Savage... I guess since Snuka's "Superfly" came before Savage's elbow, then Snuka must be Savage's influence. And then since Lou Thesz jumped off the ropes in one of his matches in the past then he must be Snuka's influence, right? Absolutely not.

    This proves my point that chronology and time lines do not determine an influencial figure in professional wrestling, unless stated by the wrestler themself. And unless you can prove that RVD named Savage as a direct influence of his, this point doesn't hold any water.

    I never said Savage wasn't an influence. I'm merely stating that RVD was a bigger influence on the wrestling product. Savage did not have wrestling promotions, matches, and WWE brands (and television shows) molded in his wrestling style. The day I see the "Wednesday Night Elbow Drop" at 8pm on ESPN, I'll succumb to your way of thinking.

    Oh, that's right. Because no one ever had sex prior to the Macho Man's reign in professional wrestling. I stand corrected.

    This is pure speculation and opinion. This is a debate and without proof, this comment is meaningless.

    What if I said, "I can probably name more RVD fans than Savage fans. I swear! I promise!" How would you reply to that? Bullshit, you say? Exactly my reaction.

    Oh, I see. You need to resort to nit-picking at two words out of an entire paragraph of facts in order to make one of your points look valid? Tsk, tsk.

    Anyway, laid-back charisma is my personal words at describing his demeanor at any time while he was in character and not wrestling. The mere fact that I had to explain that makes me laugh. Either way, what difference does my personal description of his demeanor make in this debate? Oh, that right... none.



    Good for you. But instead of taking a sarcastic approach, I backed up my definition with facts, not opinions.

    Once again, this is a debate. Your opinions mean nothing. If you have proof to back up this statement then I stand corrected. Obviously, you don't.

    You mean to tell me that RVD's style would not have captivated audiences of the 80's era?? According to you, the "Flying Elbow Drop" was such an innovative move that some would dare call it "influencial!" So you're saying that the 5-Star Frog Splash, Rolling Thunder, Van Daminator, Van Terminator, or Split-Legged Moonsault wouldn't have catapulted RVD in the 1980's and changed the face of wrestling forever?

    And you cannot compare an era when territories ruled the land to today's structure of promotional wrestling product. In the 80's, if a wrestler was a star in Stampede Wrestling, Pacific Northwest Wrestling, the AWA, WCCW, NWA, etc., they were brought into the WWE and given an automatic push, just the same way Savage was. These days, even if you're the TNA Champion and you jump ship to WWE, you still have to work your way up the ranks (a.k.a. Christian).

    He still became a nationally known phenomenon while in that "shit-hole."

    What in the blue-fuck does this mean? Are you making up terminology to make yourself sound intelligent? "Office hot"?? A hot girl is a hot fucking girl, last I checked. Therefore, RVD is a hot commodity whether he wrestled in the WWE, TNA, WCW, ECW, or the shack in your neighbor's backyard.

    Ted DiBiase or Tito Santana weren't great workers?!? I mean, Jake I understand. But Santana and DiBiase?!? I can't even argue this...

    And according to the concensus on the internet, John Cena isn't a great worker. Nor was half of ECW's roster, yet RVD got great matches out of them (as I stated in my previous post).

    And I actually agree with you... In my opinion, Savage was more talented than half of the WWF's roster. But his influence is what it is question here. He received rub after rub from arguably the most influencial wrestler of all time, Hulk Hogan. Hell, Savage got the chance to have a storyline and feud with the Hulkster for an entire year!! Naturally, this influences everyone's thinking on the type of influence that he made on pro-wrestling. However, RVD had to build himself up through the garbage in ECW and the low/midcard of the WWE, while battling the corporate machine behind the scenes, and he STILL climbed to the top of the mountain.

    Yet professional athletes and record-breakers in today's world of sports are mostly surrounded by the controversy of steroid use. RVD never took steroids... but he was still able to jump higher, further, and move faster. And who's the guy that has been documented for taking steroids in the 1980's? Oh that's right, Randy Savage.

    Did you ever watch ECW at all? In all seriousness and not to sound like a jerk, but you really should have done more research on ECW before making these statements. RVD revolutionized the hardcore movements with his innovative movesets and match techniques.

    Prior to RVD, men like Cactus Jack had sloppy matches with foreign objects and mutilated themselves to be labeled as "hardcore." RVD took those foreign objects and created an arsenal of in-ring moves that flowed like poetry in the ring. He didn't mutilate himself... he mutulated others in a cutting edge, exciting manor. All of this snow balled into every bit of hardcore wrestling television that you see in the present day.

    I assume you meant "Television Title." It's ok, I'll help your side of the debate. It looks like you need a little backup...

    I am SOOO happy you asked this question. It's the simplest of answers... He didn't need to. Anyone that is a true fan of pro-wrestling knows that the idea behind titles is to gain a specific wrestler's momentum and increase their popularity, thereby making them more marketable for the purpose of SELLING TICKETS and MAKING MONEY. Titles are nothing more than props. But, if you hold the world title in such high regards, then it makes my point stronger... RVD didn't need it's promotion's top honor in order to be it's most popular commodity. Savage did.

    Yes, because he rose above it and made the most powerful man in wrestling stick his foot in his mouth. He did something that not many are able to do... Proved Vince wrong.

    Um, didn't Savage need Hogan to win his first title? Yup, exactly.

    Oh, and Cena was far from young. I'd rate the "young Cena" as the "Word-Life" Cena. When RVD beat him, he was far and away full blown, main-event material.

    But it was still ground breaking. And if the top promotion in the world recognizes the ECW title as a world title, then it must be. If it smells like shit and looks like shit, then it's probably shit.

    You mean besides proving that every one of your statements were incorrect and were either your personal opinion or lacked the proper research? Yup, you're right.

    I already proved that paving the way doesn't always make you more "influencial." Did you forget what this debate was about?

    This is the only point that I cannot argue against. This match absolutely kicked ass.

    RVD incorporated and fused technical wrestling with hardcore and high-flying. As a result, a brand new style of wrestling was formed. Just because he didn't do 18 pinfall attempts in one match with one of the greatest in-ring performers of our generation, that doesn't mean he wasn't a great technical wrestler.

    Nah... he just wasted his time in Georgia Championship Wrestling and International Championship Wrestling. (Everyone has to climb the ranks. These were a few of the ECW's of that era.)

    Give me 3 ways that Savage was "influencial" on a microphone and I'll give you a cookie. His "Ooooh Yeah" catch-phrase is every bit as relevant as RVD's "Cool" and "420."

    Wrong answer, but thanks for playing. No hard feelings, GD. Seriously, I still think you're the fucking man.
     
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  8. gd

    gd Plump, Juicy User

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    All's fair in the Debator's League. As long as you don't bring my mother into this we should be fine.

    I don't think that anyone can serioulsy think that RVD has overshadowed Savage, even today Savage is the more popular and more well known wreslter. A few more kids may recognize RVD's name, but that's just because he's recent.


    Life isn't fair. It isn't going to be fair when the next black president is completely overshadowed by Barack Obama, but regardless of how good the new guy Obama will always be known as more influential and important because he came first.


    Savage may not have influenced RVD or any one wrestler specifically, he influeced a whole group of high flying wrestlers.

    I'm sure that guys like Snuka had at least a small influence on a Savage, just like Savage has had on guys like RVD. As for Thez, it's not like that was his whole moveset, we're talking about guys whole prominently used high flying offense.

    What? Just because a wreslter doesn't mention someone by name they don't matter? I'm sure there were hundreds, maybe even thousands of people that influenced RVD throughout his whole career in wrestling, possibly some of them without RVD even knowing. You can't expect him to remember or even recongnize everyone that helped influence him in his career.


    What shows or matches has RVD had molded in his style? I've already said that Savage was the one who innovated the high flying stlye and there were many other men, such as Abdullah the Buthcher, who innovatied the hardcore style. I haven't seen "Wednesday Night Frog Splash" or "Monday Night Rolling Thunder" recently either.


    That was meant as a joke.


    How about if I give you some proof. The WWF had many more fans than ECW, which logically means more Savage that RVD fans. During the late 80's, Savage's prime, shows like Saturday Night's Main Event were drawing rating as high as 10.0 or 11.0. During RVD's prime ECW struggled to get ratings over 1.0. You tell me who is likely to have more fans, the guy in the most popular company in the world or the guy in the company struggling to stay afloat.

    Ok, here's your paragraph again.

    I was going to highlight the part where you called him a virtual nobody, but I went with laid back charisma insted.

    Savage is from Columbus, Ohio. I'm not sure whether or not his beginnings were humble, but I hardly think it matters.

    One of the most popular ever? Considering his prime was in a company whose ratings are about on par with WWE superstars I don't think he is anywhere near as popular guys like Hogan, and Flair, and Sting, and Rock, and Austin, and Cena, and Triple H, and Hart, and Michaels, and Savage. That's just off the top of my head.



    To me, laid-back charisma seems like a paradox to me, which is why I pointed it out. If it doesn't matter, why did you mention it?


    Debates are a combination of facts and opinions, you can have all the wrestling knowledge in the world, but if you can't use that to form opinions it doesn't matter at all.


    Considering that Savage was more interesting and a better in ring worker capable of better matches than RVD and was also a huge hit with the fans, I can confidentally say he would've be more popular than RVD in ECW.

    Just because RVD has a bunch of high flying moves with cool names it doesn't mean he'd be anywhere near as successful or as useful as Savage in the WWF. Savage had the whole package, an interesting look, technical ability, high flying ability, mic skills, and charisma. RVD was one dimensional and would likely be just a flash in the pan.


    What does this really matter? It just shows that Savage was good enough to be a star in those other companies to receive a push. It may be a little different, but it's the same premise. If you're good, you get a push.

    Shit-hole may have been harsh, how about less than successful wrestling company.



    Just trying to spice up the debate. The point is you RVD looked amazing next to some of the guys in ECW, but he likely wouldn't be better than a top 10 guy in the WWF.

    In my opinion, Dibiase and Santana weren't great. I guess we'll diagree on this one.

    RVD jumping through tables and taking a bunch of bumps with a bunch of blood everywhere doesn't constitute a great match, it may be entertaining, but certainly not anywhere near the level or significant of some of Savage's matches.

    No it's not, it's who was the greaters asset. Did you read the first post.\? The fact that Savage was a great worker made him very useful and desirable to the WWF and the wresling world, more so that RVD. Therefore, he's a better asset.

    Who cares how he got there, it doesn't really matter. Savage was able to get his spot on the top because he was incredible. A great worker and a charismatic and unique character ; what other choice did the WWF have than to make him a main eventer for pretty much his whole career. RVD was only able to be in the main event scene for a few months, clearly he wasn't as useful or desirable to the WWE.



    This isn't about steroids, in nearly every sport things evolve. Sprinters are faster, swimmers are faster, etc. Almost everything is better and improved. RVD being able to jump higher and move faster is just part of natural progression.

    Yes, I have and I don't see what RVD did as overly revolutionary. It was pretty much just a combination of two things that already existed, the high flying game and the hardcore game.

    The whole point of hardcore matches is mutilation, to both men. That is why Mick Foley is regarded as the greatest hardcore wrestler of all time, I'd rather watch his style of hardcore matches than many of the hardcore matches we see today.


    Indeed, damn typos.

    Actually, when Savage was at his peak, he didn't hold the World Title either. His greatest match and his greatest feud came when he held the Intercontinental Title, a secondary title. Just because ECW was so backwards that their top star didn't hold the World Title that doesn't make RVD so special.


    Not really, his time on top in the WWE was very brief. The fact that RVD screwed it up by smoking pot actually proved Vince right, while making RVD less of an asset to wrestling.


    Good point, of course the interference argument was more relevant in the WZ Tourney anyway.

    Once again, doesn't really affect how much of an asset RVD is.

    You're right, the ECW Title is shit now compared to what it was when it was the top title. The WWE may recognize it as the top title, but it is nowhere near the level of the two other world titles. There wasn't even and ECW Title match at Wrestlemania this year.

    Just because RVD was a big fish in a little pond and could do some cool moves (your main points) doesn't mean he is anywhere near the level of a legend like Savage.


    Once again, it's about being an asset. I won't talk about how Savage paved the way anymore, I think we've covered that.



    I'm glad you agree, this one match is more useful and desirable to wrestling fans than anything RVD has done.



    You can't try and argue that RVD was a technical wrestler, he was nothing more than a hardcore spot monkey while Savage was the total package.


    Savage was good enough to spend his prime in the biggest company in the world while RVD's prime was with a glorified indy promotion.

    For Christ's Sake!! How many times do I have to tell you, it's NOT ABOUT WHO IS MORE INFLUENTIAL IT'S ABOUT WHO IS THE GREATER ASSET! Overall, Savage was better and more entertaining on the mic than RVD, I don't think you can argue with that. Because he is great on the mic in additon to being great in the ring, he is a better asset


    You're great too, haven't read much of your stuff before this and you've really showed why you're so respected around here.
     
    #8
  9. D-Man

    D-Man Gone but never forgotten.

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    Just for the record, this thread of the debate originally asked about "influence" and not "assets". I think someone changed it half-way through. How can I be sure? I copied and pasted the original subject of this thread in an email to a friend of mine and I still have the email as proof. I don't know why or how it got changed, but as you can see, it completely affected my think-pattern, reactions, and direction of my posts on this part of the debate.

    For all those reading and for those who me, you all know that this isn't a cowardly move. I love to debate, especially about pro-wrestling. And for the record, even thought it's original subject was changed after it began, I still feel that I won this round by a sizable margin.

    Even though I feel I made very strong points and a strong argument, I'm slightly embarrassed for being called out on my so-called "mistake" when I don't feel it was mine. In addition, I refuse to back-pedal and repost my arguments with a completely different scope of thinking. I feel that the points I made should still favor well with the judges.

    However, regardless of the outcome of this matchup, I am withdrawing from this debate league. I feel that something unjust is traspiring here, and I am no longer going to dedicate my limited time to this tournament and be a part of it.
     
    #9
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  10. Mr. TM

    Mr. TM Throwing a tantrum

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    The D-Man, I am not sure what happened here. All the debates were about being the better asset. I did not change the post, as it would leave edit tags in red at the bottom. I believe that we can ask the Admins to see if there were any changes. I hope you reconsider leaving as I have enjoyed your debates, and I believe you have the ability to win.

    Slyfox Note: Testing editing thread
     
    #10
  11. Slyfox696

    Slyfox696 Excellence of Execution

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    Aside from the small edit I made in TM's post just now, there have been no edits in this thread.

    If TM had adjusted it, there would be a little something under his original post saying something like "Last edited by Metal Gear Steve : 08-02-2009 at 05:36 PM. Reason: changed the argument "

    You can see an example in the second post of this thread: http://forums.wrestlezone.com/showthread.php?t=58967

    Furthermore, Staff has the ability to see if any individual posts have been edited by another moderator. As you can see in the following image, no such editing has been done, with the exception of the note I just now left in TM's post.

    [​IMG]

    You can see my one edit to the thread, and you can see I made it today, just a few minutes before this post.


    Since this thread has been posted, I see no way that the opening question could have possibly been changed. If this doesn't convince you, I have no other possible way of trying.
     
    #11
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  12. D-Man

    D-Man Gone but never forgotten.

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    Sly, I'm completely flabbergasted by this. You're an admin here, so you have proof. However, let me give you my side on this.

    I can tell you that once this debate came to be, I was taken back by the subject and quite angry because I could not choose Savage instead of RVD. So, I emailed IC (since we're friends) as a good laugh, since he knows I'm such a Savage mark. In my email to him, I stated that the debate at hand was about "influence," and we had a discussion about how difficult it was going to be for me to argue my points. With all of this being said, I cannot see how I could have gotten this wrong. But, you have the proof, and I can't really argue against it.

    Either way, whether this was my mistake or not, I don't see how I can continue in this debate.
     
    #12
  13. Mr. TM

    Mr. TM Throwing a tantrum

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    In the interest of fairness I offer this as a resolution.

    D-Man, you will be judged with ease over the mistake. But you are given the opportunity to make a final post with the question being "The better asset to the Professional Wrestling World? Randy Savage vs RVD"

    As General Disarray would be at a fault however, I have to give him one chance to rebut the post. Then the judges will judge those rounds. If you are willing to continue, make your final post.
     
    #13
  14. gd

    gd Plump, Juicy User

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    If D-Man does post I won't be able to respond until tomorrow.
     
    #14
  15. D-Man

    D-Man Gone but never forgotten.

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    I'm not going to post in that debate again. You guys should understand my stance on the subject. I'm not going to waste anymore time on this round.

    Most of the fun factor has been taken out of this debate for me. I want to see if I have any gas left in my tank for this, so I'm going to try one more round. If I'm not feeling it, I'll forfeit to my opponent and we can all go on with our lives. Like I said, the last thing I want to do is ruin this thing for anyone else. But if anyone else fucks with my round or my post, I'm going to cry bloody murder and no one will ever hear the end of it.

    (I'm going to post this in the main debate thread, as well as the thread with the poll I posted.)
     
    #15
  16. Cena's Little Helper

    Cena's Little Helper Mid-Card Championship Winner

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    Clarity of Argument - D-Man, you presented a very clear argument and outlined everything. GD, I felt as if your opening post was something that I'd read on the back of a "Best Of Randy Savage" DVD...it was worded fine, but it could have used a little more information.

    Point: D-Man

    Punctuality: GD, you get the point here.

    Point: GD

    Informative: D-Man, you brought in a lot of information, and, ironically, arguing against one of your favorite wrestlers did you wonders here. GD, something tells me that you took Savage's almost universal praise for granted; yes, almost everyone thinks he's great, but you still needed to adduce evidence of this greatness.

    Point: D-Man

    Emotionality: GD, I'm giving you this point by default.

    Point: GD

    Persuasion: You presented a very good case for RVD, D-Man, and I'm giving you the point here. GD, you know your logic and you know how to argue, but your posts here could have used a bit more information. You mentioned in this debate that you can research all you want, but it won't get you anywhere if you don't know what to do with it. While this is true, it is also true that information is necessary to a good argument about concrete things such as professional wrestling. You can be the best logician/rhetorician/arguer in the world, but, without facts, you'd be able to do nothing more than engage in armchair speculation.

    Point: D-Man

    tdigle's Score
    GD: 2
    D-Man: 3
     
    #16
  17. Mr. TM

    Mr. TM Throwing a tantrum

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    Clarity of Argument - I liked GD's initial set up, but I think D-Man worked it better throughout. Both did a great job here, but DMan gets these points.


    Punctuality: GD was on time, he gets this point.


    Informative: This could have been a lot easier for GD in my books on one side. A lot more information exists on Randy Savage. But Dman had the harder side of the debate and gave more. He easily gains these points.


    Emotionality: Yes, I am watching The OC with a tear in my eye. Summer and Seth got married:). Why the fuck was this show canceled. I will give whoever of you two the point that gets this show back on the air. And rep, a shit load of rep. In fact, you can have all of my rep if this show gets back on the air. But really, GD has to get this point. I felt Dman was a little over the line a few times in his debate. I like passion, but this was too much at one point. GD stayed calm and like a train.


    Persuasion: I think I am done round 2 after this score. And you debaters have done a fucking incredible job. I have been persuaded against what I thought many times. I am a huge Macho Man fan, I just watched his DVD at the start of this debate, as well as the ECW DVD, just so I can prepare as a judge. And I came out with my reborn love for Macho Man. Dman cut that down however for me, because I feel RVD is the better asset to the pro wrestling world after this debate.


    TM rates this 3 points Dman, 2 points GD.
     
    #17
  18. CH David

    CH David A Jock That Loves Pepsi

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    Clarity: D-Man always has a great set-up and flow during his debates.

    Point: The D-Man

    Punctuality: GD gets the point.

    Point: General Disarray

    Informative: D-Man always brings a shitload of information, and it is always relevant and not overboard, even against one of his favorites.

    Point: The D-Man

    Emotionality: D-Man got very heated and went a little far.

    Point: General Disarray

    Persuasion: D-Man made a great case for RVD. Like Tdigs said to you GD, you can be a very logical person, and great at arguing, but without facts, you are just spouting speculation.

    Point: The D-Man

    CH David scores this D-Man 3, General Disarray 2.
     
    #18
  19. Blade

    Blade "Original Blade"

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    Clarity: I felt D-man was kinda struggling to think up arguments. GD gets the point here.

    Punctuality: GD, as stated above.

    Informative: D-Man pulled out some good stuff for his arguments, and it made his slightly weak arguments much stronger.

    Emotionality: D-Man seemed to get kinda pissed off, so GD

    Persuasion: I can't decide on this one, the debate got kinda messy near the end. So I won't give anyone this point.

    GD: 3 D-Man: 1
     
    #19
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  20. Marquis

    Marquis Registered User

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    Clarity- D-man
    D-man's spaced his posts more properly from thought to thought and also bolded important points.

    Punctuality- GD
    For the reasons stated above.

    Informative- D-man
    D-man brought a lot more facts and points to a argument which was hard for him to debate for. While I felt GD brought too much opinion, which while his opinions might be true, he should have presented more back up and detailed evidence of it.

    Emotionality- D-man
    GD took a more sarcastic and jokingly approach to this debate, while D-man seemed to really get heated at some points during the debate, so I award the point to him.

    Persuasion- D-man
    I came into this debate thinking it was gonna be a blowout in GD's favor since there's much more information to support Savage being the better asset, and while I still believe Savage is the better asset, D-man did a much better job of presenting facts, information, and different points of views, to prove that RVD might actually be a better asset then Savage.

    D-man - 4 points
    GD - 1 point.
     
    #20

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