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Trouble Creating New Stars

JETER123

Pre-Show Stalwart
In the past, the way a star was born was through the 18-34 year old demographic noticing a wrestler's skills or charisma. And almost always, the guy started out a heel.

Well now with the little girls and boys in the crowd, they cheer who they are supposed to cheer. They don't think the villains are cool. They like leprochauns and Marine's and poo poo humor.

The kids aren't just gonna start cheering for Ziggler or Miz. They can't appreciate Swagger's potential...

The older fans create stars. Austin, Rock, Orton, Cena, Batista, Christian, Edge, Angle...The list goes on forever. These men got over as heels because older fans appreciated there in ring talent and mic skills.

There's a reason why most older fans hate the wrestlers the younger fans and teen girls love.
 
It's all a matter of what the future generations are gonna take away from the wrestling world. With the older fans still cheering guys like Batista, Edge, Angle, and Sting, it's obvious that the younger guys such as Orton, Styles, Cena, DeBiase, and pretty much anyone who's funny are gonna be cheered by the little kids. With WWE going PG, it's obvious that TNA has gone to the older fans due to the wrestlers there and the lack of any decent rising stars. TNA focuses on established stars while the young faces are the point of WWE.
 
So long as the kiddies keep buying the merch the WWE won't give a S***. They don't care who is cheered so long as the DVD's, PPV's, T-shirts, Caps, Toys, Wristbands, Pendants Etc. keep selling.
 
You say that the older guys are responsible for the superstars of the industry. But wasn't it little kids cheering for Hulk Hogan which made him so big? He featured in cartoons, on ice-cream bars and merchandise aimed at children. Yet where did to day's older wrestling fan get the god-given right to dictate who everyone else should cheer for?

If you want to live in the past, and cheer for broekn-down old guys like Austin, go right ahead. But why criticize little kids and women form cheering for who they want? Shouldn't everyone cheer for their personal favourites, even if they are not yours?

The fact that you older fans all cheer for the same people, and boo the same people makes you sheep. Why don't you grow a set, and cheer for who you actually like, not just who your mates say is cool?
 
I seriously don't think WWE or the McMahons actually cares about creating stars at all. I mean look The Great Khali is still here, so is Kung Fu Naki. Most likely because they are international talents and bring in fans from that country respectively. The WWE is all about making money. They couldn't care less about actually creating stars. And I really don't think that anyone would cheer for Miz. I'm sorry, but in my opinion, he's maybe one of the worse wrestlers in the entire WWE. Ziggler and Swagger's got great potential and I can see Swagger eventually with the WWE Championship. See this is why I really like TNA, it seems that they actually care. They create stars and make money at same time by bringing in D'Angelo Denero, Booker, Tazz, etc.
 
You say that the older guys are responsible for the superstars of the industry. But wasn't it little kids cheering for Hulk Hogan which made him so big? He featured in cartoons, on ice-cream bars and merchandise aimed at children. Yet where did to day's older wrestling fan get the god-given right to dictate who everyone else should cheer for?

If you want to live in the past, and cheer for broekn-down old guys like Austin, go right ahead. But why criticize little kids and women form cheering for who they want? Shouldn't everyone cheer for their personal favourites, even if they are not yours?

The fact that you older fans all cheer for the same people, and boo the same people makes you sheep. Why don't you grow a set, and cheer for who you actually like, not just who your mates say is cool?


You make zero sense. First of all, when Hogan was getting cheered, wrestling was completely different then it is today. No websites, barely any ppv's, no Monday Night Raw...no out of character interviews. Wrestling was meant to be looked at as real...

I'm not saying older fans should DICTATE it, but there's no question that we see talent and potential more than an 11 year old boy or a 15 year old girl who is only interested in Cena because of his looks...

I never said we want to live in the past...I want guys like Swagger, Ziggler, Morrison, Miz, and others to be the forefront...not just the stale main eventers...

And older fans don't cheer the same people... they cheer for people whether they are heel or face, unlike the kids who cheer for the people that Vince wants them too. That's a real sheep...
 
See this is why I really like TNA, it seems that they actually care. They create stars and make money at same time by bringing in D'Angelo Denero, Booker, Tazz, etc.

What? I will give you that WWE didn't care about making new stars but they've gotten better, look at the push that Ziggler is getting, Morrison as well, plus you have Legacy going over with DX, not to mention ECW which is all about promoting new stars, look at who they have brought up, CM Punk- Jack Swagger- Evan Bourne- Kofi Kingston and new guys like Sheamus and Tyler Reiks are going to be good. WWE has started to realize they need to make new talent.

As for TNA, in my opinion TNA is made of a bunch of WWE rejects that WWE didn't want (Excluding Kurt Angle and Sting) and yes they have good young talent, but look at there champions, World Title- Kurt Angle (40- WWE),Legends Title- Kevin Nash (50- WWE), Tag Team Titles- Booker T (44- WWE)+ Scott Steiner (47- WWE) you have your 3 main titles held by guys who all come from WWE and are over 40. Yes they have young talent but all there titles are with old WWE guys, maybe the rest of there roster is young but there Main Event is old WWE rejects or guys who left.

Not to mention that on a roster of 65 they have 19 people who are from WWE. In my opinion as much as TNA has some younger guys, there Main Event (Aside from Hernandez and Morgan) are all old WWE guys.
 
Trouble creating new stars? Really... I think not... Let's look and the new up and comers...

Raw:
The Miz
Jack Swagger
Kofi Kingston
Evan Bourne
Cody Rhodes
Ted Debiase
Primo
Smackdown
Hart Foundation
Ziggler
Morrison
Cryme Tyme

WWe has new stars on the rise. They are there, and they're beginning to shine. If you don't think so you're mistaken....
 
Trouble creating new stars? Really... I think not... Let's look and the new up and comers...

Raw:
The Miz
Jack Swagger
Kofi Kingston
Evan Bourne
Cody Rhodes
Ted Debiase
Primo
Smackdown
Hart Foundation
Ziggler
Morrison
Cryme Tyme

WWe has new stars on the rise. They are there, and they're beginning to shine. If you don't think so you're mistaken....



Haha, I guess you use the word star loosely. None of those guys have the Austin, Orton, Rock, Batista feel when they were in their positions.

Primo?
Cryme Tyme?
Evan Bourne?

You honestly believe these guys will be stars...they are destined for mid-card obscurity...
 
This thread is shit. For a start, you complain about the biggest part of the business - Heel vs. Face, Good vs. Evil etc. Most of the normal fans cheer for the face and boo the heel, not simply the children. The fans who watch wrestling like that also seem to be the ones who enjoy it more...

I'm not quite getting where you think the older fans created John Cena. He's never been better than in these last couple of years. What is the point in Cena? He's supposed to sell to the children. He's that good guy who they all look up to and everyone loves. When he was booked differently, as a rapper, he wasn't nearly as successful as the Superman type gimmick he has as a hero.

The fans make stars, regardless of age. The fans are the ones wrestling is made for in general, without them there'd be no stars at all. I seriously don't see how "People don't cheer for the heels" is a complaint.
 
Haha, I guess you use the word star loosely. None of those guys have the Austin, Orton, Rock, Batista feel when they were in their positions.

Primo?
Cryme Tyme?
Evan Bourne?

You honestly believe these guys will be stars...they are destined for mid-card obscurity...

Jack Swagger- Future WWE or World Heavyweight Champion.
Ted Dibiase Jr- Future WWE or World Heavyweight Champion.
John Morrison- Future WWE or World Heavyweight Champion.
Dolph Ziggler- Possible 1 time World Champ but Rey Mysterio type of guy.
The Miz- Upper Mid Carder for life, with possible chance of Main Event for a bit.
The Hart Foundation- DH Smith will go farther but for now really good.

Cody Rhodes, Primo, Evan Bourne, Kofi Kingston are all Mid- Upper Mid carders but hey, thats a pretty darn good mid card if you ask me.
 
So basically are you saying let's not let kids watch wrestling? Let's have it kept in a little cult following? For what? So it dies out in the next twenty years?

What a pathetic thread. No one has the right to claim themself a proper fan whilst others aren't. there are many different types of wrestling fans.

Some believe charisma and mic skills are what defines a great wrestler and will back Hogan, the Rock and Austin as the greatest ever.

Others believe technical skills are the most important thing and will tell anyone that Bret Hart is the greatest ever.

There are newer fans who believe flash moves are important and that is why Jeff and Rey were so insanely over.

Everyone has a right to their own opinion. There is no wrong belief. That is the beauty of it all, and that is why there is so much discussion. If every one shared the same belief it would be shit.

And creating new generations of fans is extremely important, so kids should always be encouraged to watch and freely choose for themself who they like.
 
It's not about being older or younger. Having a good guy and having a bad guy is the whole concept of the drama. It doesn't differ for adults or children. Without having a good and a bad guy wrestling business would have been dead that's why wrestling has been booked in this way for years. I want to give an example for this. If you watched the Dark Knight movie as a Batman fan it was my favorite movie from last year. Everyone loved and appreciated Heath Ledger's Joker's performance but when I was watching the film I wanted Batman to kick Joker's ass so bad even though Ledger's performance impressed me so much. The same thing can be said for any movie. If wrestling was a legimate sport then booing Orton would be a huge disrespectful behavior to him. But it's like in Dark Knight Orton's character is created to make you love faces more.

That's why it's not about older fans or younger fans. You gave me an example they noticed Austin. But why did they boo Vince instead of appreciating his great heel persona. Even though Austin looked like an anti-hero he was the hero of adults they wanted him to kick Vince's ass. It's the same thing for children. They love Cena and want him to win just like I do everytime Orton does something heelish I hate him. But I think he is a great wrestler I love to hate him. Cheering for Orton means telling him you can't do your job good. So what if you don't like someone. It's simple shut your mouth and sit down on your seat if that wrestler can't get any reaction WWE would notice him and wouldn't push him. If he gets reaction it means even though you don't like him he deserves his place.

So it's not about adults,teenagers or children everyone needs to have someone to hate and someone to love in drama. It's the way how all series,films and most importantly wrestling shows work.
 
I seriously don't think WWE or the McMahons actually cares about creating stars at all.

Really? You think the McMahons don't care about making stars? They must not care about making money either.

I mean look The Great Khali is still here, so is Kung Fu Naki.
Most likely because they are international talents and bring in fans from that country respectively.

Khali is a huge star in India. And he's still on TV because he's over with the crowd. Separate yourself from the IWC and watch the show. He gets cheers. People like him. Fu Naki is around because he is a valuable road agent. He's been in the WWE for a decade, had success as a tag team wrestler, and now helps choreograph matches and helps out backstage. They put him on TV once every two or three months as a reward.

The WWE is all about making money. They couldn't care less about actually creating stars.

This is quite possibly the most backasswards thing ever said on the forums? How the fuck are they going to make money with creating stars? The WWE has survived based on stars. The NFL is bigger than individual players, the WWE is not bigger than the stars it relies on. It is just idiotic to assume that the WWE doesn't want to make stars.


And I really don't think that anyone would cheer for Miz. I'm sorry, but in my opinion, he's maybe one of the worse wrestlers in the entire WWE.

I think you meant worst, but bad English be damned!!! Your opinion is completely invalid here. The Miz is one of the most over heels on Raw. He gets more boos than Orton. His mic work is top notch. He is alos clearly the most improved performer in the ring in the entire company. Do you remember how bad he was when he came in? Now is a very able wrestler, as evidenced by a couple of high quality matches with John Cena.

Ziggler and Swagger's got great potential and I can see Swagger eventually with the WWE Championship.

Wow, you said something that makes sense. Amazing!

See this is why I really like TNA, it seems that they actually care. They create stars and make money at same time

I'm sorry, are you trying to tell me that TNA creates stars? AJ, Daniels, Morgan, and........

by bringing in D'Angelo Denero,

You're beginning your defense of TNA's superiority to the WWE by pointing out that TNA has Elijah Burke? :lmao: Seriously, Elijah Burke is just someone else to throw into a clusterfuck Thumderdome match. He is OK in the ring, devoid of personality, and not a star. He is a bit player, whose bit is smaller than it was in WWE.


You're right on here. I mean TNA did a great thing when they made Booker the five time five time five time five time five time World Champion. Wait...TNA didn't make him a star you say? Wow, did you start watching wresling last October or something? How does bringing up Booker T prove that TNA makes stars? Good thing they discovered that Kevin Nash too. He might be something some day!

[/quote] Tazz, etc.[/QUOTE]

Yes Tazz is a star......announcer? Really? He was in the MEM for like 15 minutes and now he sits there and makes sure Tenay doesn't oversell arm drags and undersell surprises anymore. Seriously, this is terrible.


I don't think there is any trouble creating stars. Look at all of the guys the WWE has made into main eventers in just the last five years. Orton, Batista, Hardy, Mysterio, Punk, Cena, Edge - all of these guys have won their first World Title within the last five years. When you add them to HHH, HBK, and Taker, the top of the card is crowded, and there just isn't room to elevate guys. Most of those guys are pretty young too, and WWE has lined four guys up to move into the roles of the guys who are leaving. The WWE is in the process of making Swagger, Ziggler, Morrison, and Mark Henry into the next four guys at the top of the card. It's not like they can say, "OK everyone, cheer for this guy, because he's the new star!" It's a process, and it takes time, and the way they've moved seven or eight guys into the spotlight in the last five years is pretty impressive.

They are elevating guys at a higher rate now than ever before, and it's still not enough for some people.

In the 80's there were two stars established, Hogan and Andre, and they only added Savage and Warrior to the top of the card in the entire decade. In the 90's, wholesale evacuations caused Bret, Taker, and HBK, the established stars to be joined by the Rock and Austin, and that's it. In the last decade, The Rock, Taker, and HBK were joined by Jericho, Benoit, Eddie, and Lesnar, plus a couple of WCW guys, Booker most notably. In the last five years, the WWE has put more guys into the main even scene than ever before. There is no trouble creating stars, there is trouble getting the IWC to enjoy a build up and buy into a story because the IWC wants it all now, and won't settle for being worked a bit.
 
It really has nothing to do with PG. Many, many guys got over in the 1980s and early 1990s when it was family friendly. Its the overall presentation and feel of the product today. Back then, you had intense promos and interviews with guys like Mean Gene, you had managers putting guys over, the wreslters themselves acting like they gave a shit. The guys don't get a lot of face time outside of the ring and it hurts the part of the show devoted to character development.

Kofi Kingston is the US champ and doesn't say a peep or have any segments or vignettes. Razor Ramon started out in a similar position as a mid-carder that had a fake Cuban accent much like Kofi has an accent, but he had so many vignettes and segments that the fans got to know his persona and character. That doesn't happen today. The mid-carders are not gonna get over on matches alone. Pro wrestling is a formula: The spectacle of athletics and Hollywood mixed with unique characters, development, and storylines. Its lacking the "it" factor it once had.

Today you have boring Josh Matthews that says the same thing every time, and after the interview is over he has a look on his face like he's either holding in a shit or scared out of his mind. The camera angles and lighting also affect the perception of the product. Its the same thing everytime with the same nauseating camera movement. Their lines and promos seem too rehearsed, unnartural, and phony as Bret Hart stated recently.

I'm not trying to be one of those WWE-bashers. I watch every week and enjoy it from a nostalgic standpoint. I also like some of the younger guys. These are just things I'm pointing out that could use improvement.
 
This thread is shit. For a start, you complain about the biggest part of the business - Heel vs. Face, Good vs. Evil etc. Most of the normal fans cheer for the face and boo the heel, not simply the children. The fans who watch wrestling like that also seem to be the ones who enjoy it more...

I'm not quite getting where you think the older fans created John Cena. He's never been better than in these last couple of years. What is the point in Cena? He's supposed to sell to the children. He's that good guy who they all look up to and everyone loves. When he was booked differently, as a rapper, he wasn't nearly as successful as the Superman type gimmick he has as a hero.

The fans make stars, regardless of age. The fans are the ones wrestling is made for in general, without them there'd be no stars at all. I seriously don't see how "People don't cheer for the heels" is a complaint.


Well first of all, you cheer and boo WHO you want...and normally, Vince will listen.


And how did the older fans not create Cena??? His rap gimmick got him over, not the Superhero gimmick. All the older fans who cheered for Cena when he was cutting his freestyles hate him now because he's not what he was when they started cheering him. It would be like Austin getting over kicking ass and drinking beer, and as soon as he turned face, became a goody goody...That's not right.

Cena wouldn't be the guy if he never got over like that in the beginning. His vulgar raps were the next big thing...not the Marine gimmick.

And I'm not saying people should cheer for the heels. But it's incredibly hard for a good guy to debut and have 18-34 year olds be like, "oh my gosh! He's sooo good. He's nice and I should cheer for him..." That's a child's mentality when it comes to entertainment. But for most older men it's way more than that...You can't just tell them to like Yoshi Tatsu cause he smiles...
 
Well first of all, you cheer and boo WHO you want...and normally, Vince will listen.

But as I said earlier, WHO you want to cheer, for most people is the faces. It's 'cool' among the idiots to boo the faces and cheer the heels, but in general it's the good guy the fans want to win.


And how did the older fans not create Cena??? His rap gimmick got him over, not the Superhero gimmick. All the older fans who cheered for Cena when he was cutting his freestyles hate him now because he's not what he was when they started cheering him. It would be like Austin getting over kicking ass and drinking beer, and as soon as he turned face, became a goody goody...That's not right.

Cena has been at his best with the superhero gimmick. Older internet fans have turned on him, yet it's as a superhero he's making the most money. It's the children who are buying the spinning belts and John Cena wristbands.

Cena wouldn't be the guy if he never got over like that in the beginning. His vulgar raps were the next big thing...not the Marine gimmick.

I loved his rapping, but that doesn't mean it was the best part of his career. It clearly wasn't.

And I'm not saying people should cheer for the heels. But it's incredibly hard for a good guy to debut and have 18-34 year olds be like, "oh my gosh! He's sooo good. He's nice and I should cheer for him..." That's a child's mentality when it comes to entertainment. But for most older men it's way more than that...You can't just tell them to like Yoshi Tatsu cause he smiles...

And it's the children who tend to enjoy the product more..

But I think this last paragraph is bullshit. When you went to see the Dark Knight, you didn't want anything to happen to Batman did you? When you watch Superman, are you cheering for the villain? When people are reading Harry Potter, they don't want Potter to die...It's exactly the same for wrestling.
 
I honestly believe that alot of the problems the WWE is having with creating new stars is to do with PG rating. Like I've said alot of times already on these forums, the wrestlers are simply far to restricted in what they can say and do to really make the fans care and take notice of them. Two potential stars that a few people have been mentioning here and who I agree with are Ziggler and Swagger. Both these guys have done pretty well but what's probably got them noticed has had alot to do with their in ring performances and not their personalities or charisma. The current big names in the WWE at the moment like Triple H and Cena got over with the fans when the product was not PG and when both guys were bad-asses. It's the poor quality of the product and the PG rating that's really the problem for the WWE being able to create big stars to me. You need the wrestlers to swear a bit and do stuff to make the fans care more about them and the feuds their involved in. Great feuds need something edgy about them and in the end it's the feuds that can make great stars out of the wrestlers. Best example of this was the legendary feud of Austin v Mcmahon.
 

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