The Lost Art Of The Face/Heel Turn

The Brain

King Of The Ring
How do you feel about threads where the OP takes a part of wrestling and claims how it was much better in the old days? You know the ones. The tag division used to be so much better. Mid card champions used to be so much better. The hype going into PPVs used to be so much better. If you’re tired of threads like that then this thread might not be for you. I’ve grown tired of discussing the topics above even though I do agree with them but one thing I don’t see discussed here often that I think used to be handled so much better are face/heel turns in WWE.

Other than a title change a wrestler turning from face to heel or vice versa used to be the biggest angle that could take place on a wrestling show. Often the turn was a slow one that built up over several weeks. I think most fans saw Randy Savage’s heel turn in 1989 coming a mile away but that didn’t make it any less exciting or impactful when it finally happened. Once in a while there was a turn that came out of nowhere. Twenty years ago today Crush returned to Monday Night Raw after being absent for a few months from an injury and shocked the fans by aligning himself with Mr. Fuji and Yokozuna and attacking Randy Savage. Whether we saw it coming or not a change in character was a big deal in those days.

This seems to be something the creative team cares little about today. What was nice about the heel turns I mentioned, along with most others from back then, was the wrestler that was turning had a logical motive. As fans we may not have agreed with them but I could see why Orndorff, Andre, Savage, and Sid turned on Hogan. I could see why Martel turned on Santana. I could see why Savage turned on Crush. There doesn’t seem to be any motivation or storyline when it comes to face and heel turns today. Wrestlers just gradually become more obnoxious or likeable.

Why did Miz turn face? Why did Del Rio? Why did Ziggler, Mark Henry, or the Prime Time Players? Nothing happened with these guys from a kayfabe perspective to cause us to go from hating them to suddenly cheering them. WWE just started putting them against heels to communicate the message that they were now face. Vince may as well have just picked up a microphone and said “We’re going a different direction with Miz now so we’d appreciate it if you started to cheer for him now instead of boo him.” A turn used to be filled with drama and emotion. It just seems we have little to no reason to care about a turn these days.

Maybe this is just another example of how I’m stuck in the past when it comes to certain things. Maybe the creative team thinks it is unrealistic for someone to go under a personality change as a result of one event. Realism usually doesn’t get in the way of wrestling very often so I don’t think that should be the case here. What do you think? Do face and heel turns need more motivation and story behind them or is it just another thing that has become less relevant in wrestling today? Or maybe I’m exaggerating and there are still a lot of good turns. If you believe that to be the case please list some examples. I know it still happens once in a while but there seem to be more turns for no reason than ones that have a story behind them.
 
I don't really remember anyone going from heel to face with much of a story behind it. Certainly not a story that made any sense. Either the fans start to cheer a guy or bad guy(s) beat down not as bad guy thus making him a good guy or the bad guy returns from an injury. Neither face turn makes much sense. Fans shouldn't be able to make me a good person and just because there are people that are more bad than me makes me good. It just makes me less bad than them.

I guess a guy can embrace something that is good and from that his/her goodness flourishes. Savage embracing Elizabeth's goodness is probably the best example I can think of. But I would argue that Del Rio protecting Ricardo is a very similar story.

I'm just trying to think of examples of guys becoming faces from the past that was so great. The Hart Foundation made the leap (I think they got sick of Jimmy Hart), Andre turned on Dibiase, screw it, I'm failing at this one.

I agree that a lot of face and heel turns have felt illogical but I need to be reminded of some old time face turns that really worked to be critical of today's product compared to the good old days.
 
It is a lost art. It was lost with the Russo style booking. The shock turn became the norm and eventually it programmed all fans to always assume a swerve, even if it doesn't make sense. Not saying a shock turn is bad, but it just gave the creative team an easy way to turn someone heel or face. Losing this art has affected the program. At least give me kind of a credible reason to buy into the turn. It's wrestling. It shouldn't be that hard. The turn just needs to work.

One recent heel turn which worked was Chris Jericho in 2008. That slow turn which kicked into full throttle. The Hart-Austin double turn was very rare and it worked out great for both competitors. Razor Ramon's face turn was pretty cool, but the fans had already started cheering him beforehand. Like you said, just have a motive for the turn and have it be credible. I don't need some long winded story or just a random appearance saying "I love you (insert city)!"
 
I totally agree, although maybe I'm just being an old man and waxing poetic about the good ol' days. Just thinking about it off the top of my head, I remember face turns often times being the result of a partner/manager trying to get a wrestler to do something they weren't comfortable doing, i.e. Taker's first face turn coming when he prevented Jake the Snake from attacking Savage and Elizabeth backstage. But like Brain said, turns made logical sense and would be drawn out over a period of time, which is probably why they can no longer execute them the way they used to. Since programming is so condensed now, it's hard to draw out any major storyline these days. I'm actually pleasantly surprised, for example, that it took Big Show as long as it did to KO HHH. I was expecting them to hotshot that weeks ago.
 
I don't really remember anyone going from heel to face with much of a story behind it. Certainly not a story that made any sense. Either the fans start to cheer a guy or bad guy(s) beat down not as bad guy thus making him a good guy or the bad guy returns from an injury. Neither face turn makes much sense. Fans shouldn't be able to make me a good person and just because there are people that are more bad than me makes me good. It just makes me less bad than them.

Jimmy Snuka? Didn't he get turned face in the McMahon's territory over the course of weeks or months when he found out his manager was screwing him over for money?
 
Miz turned on John Morrison right after the RAW Draft episode. After JBL left the APA he turned immediately into a new character that was a heel.

Although it helps to have a shocking moment for a heel turn (ram Jannety's head through a "plate glass" window, etc.) turns like JBL did or Miz did were timed perfectly.
 
There's only two turns I *fully* remember and that's Shawn turning on Marty and the Hart/Austin "double turn" at WrestleMania XIII.

I can't for the life of me tell you the like... "why/how" say Punk started the SES, then became the Nexus leader, then onto the "Pipe Bomb," etc, etc. I remember him being face with the WHC then... well, the above.

I couldn't really tell you why Jericho went from "Save_Us" to "Save_Me."

Hell, I couldn't really tell you why Mark Henry went from NOD, Sexual Chocolate, to... whatever he has been.
 
I don't really remember anyone going from heel to face with much of a story behind it. Certainly not a story that made any sense. Either the fans start to cheer a guy or bad guy(s) beat down not as bad guy thus making him a good guy or the bad guy returns from an injury. Neither face turn makes much sense. Fans shouldn't be able to make me a good person and just because there are people that are more bad than me makes me good. It just makes me less bad than them.

I guess a guy can embrace something that is good and from that his/her goodness flourishes. Savage embracing Elizabeth's goodness is probably the best example I can think of. But I would argue that Del Rio protecting Ricardo is a very similar story.

I'm just trying to think of examples of guys becoming faces from the past that was so great. The Hart Foundation made the leap (I think they got sick of Jimmy Hart), Andre turned on Dibiase, screw it, I'm failing at this one.

I agree that a lot of face and heel turns have felt illogical but I need to be reminded of some old time face turns that really worked to be critical of today's product compared to the good old days.

Your post made me realize that all the examples from years past I’ve listed are heel turns and all my more recent examples are face turns. Now that I think about it, face turns from the past were mostly guys finally getting fed up with their heel manager or the heel manager turning on them. It wasn’t so much a bad guy suddenly became noble. It was more that the bad guy developed a problem with an even worse guy in the heel manager. Eventually they would develop the more noble traits that we’re used to seeing from good guys presumably because they were no longer associated with the slimy manager. I guess less memorable face turns is a side effect to less emphasis on managers. I think with a little more creativity face turns could still be well done without managers. Like I said before Miz, Mark Henry, and the Prime Time Players were all suddenly face for no reason. Something could have been done with those guys for us to care about them more.
 
I agree to some extent that the Art of the Face/Heel turn has been or was lost. I think the crucial part that was lost was the slow, almost soap opera-esque build to the big, "shocking" reveal. Thanks to writers like Vince Russo & the hectic backstage politics of today that cause things to change on a whim it's seems like all WWE has known in recent years when it comes to a face/heel turn are sudden changes in attitude & the pointless beatdown/making the save scenarios for a quick change. & ofcourse we can't forget all the "Hey, Big Show is crying again so you should feel really bad for him" segements that work like a gem for a quick face turn.

But I will say that several of the recent face/heel turns have really been well orchestrated & felt a lot more organic like back in the old days. Although many people saw at least some of it coming, the Triple H/Orton double heel turn at Summerslam was awesome. The Cody Rhodes face turn at MitB this year was absolutely fantastic & also helped catapult Damien Sandow into the future World Title picture. & while it wasn't a face/heel turn, the Heyman attacking & turning on Punk that also happened at MitB was great as well. Even Mark Henry's return as a heel, then face turn, then heel turn & then final face turn made sense & felt surprisingly natural. He returned as the dominant monster he was when he left, he turned face very breifly because he was on such a roll & there were rumors of his retirement, then he turned back heel after a terrific promo & possibly the highlight of his career & then because he was so amazing & worked well as partner for Big Show to oppose The Shield, he turned face again. Strangely organic.

So I would say that WWE seems to be doing much better with them recently along with several other issues that were a lot better in the past like Managers, Tag Teams, Divas, etc. It all takes time & WWE can't please everyone. But I think Triple H admires & respects the old ways of doing things & I think he is bringing a lot of that back in several different ways.
 
I agree with you totally. When someone turned heel as a kid I was almost hurt by it. Sometimes, like you said, we could see it coming a mile away but it wasn't any less impactful. I can't for the life of me think of a face turn that didn't happen because of the wrestler getting sick of the heel manager or the heel manager turning on him. I think a big reason that the turns are not as impactful now is that we don't have as big of a connection to the character. Maybe it has something to do with us not being kids anymore I don't know, but the last time I really felt that connection during a match was The End of an Era match. All guys from I followed most of my life. I just don't give a shit about the guys they are trying to sell us these days. It would then stand to reason that I would not care if those same guys turned face or heel no matter how it was done. I am not saying I hate today's product, but I don't feel for the characters like I used to. Maybe that is my age, maybe it is bad writing, or maybe the blame should go to the wrestlers themselves. Either way the result is everything feeling a bit lackluster when it happens. The face/heel turn being a prime example.
 
I think one of the main reason to this is because of the fans too. Many of us seem to like cheering heels that there's little reason to explain and change up the wrestler big time. Stone Cold really broke the boundaries of a heel and a face and there's no clear definition to both anymore.

I agree with your general idea though, especially with Miz, Del Rio and such. Especially Miz because there's nothing likable about his old character, at least for Ziggler's case the fans began to like him because he was so good. One of the last heel/face turn I liked was R-Truth when he turned heel. He had legit reason to turn and did a memorable heel turn by smoking in the arena.
 
I good one I remember not too long ago was DB. He was a good guy when he won the MITB. He then cashed in on Big Show, but that didn't make him heel. No, he slowly began to show his cocky side as weeks went by. It was a slow face to heel change and it worked pretty well IMO. It then let to the love triangle with Punk/Kane/Bryan over AJ. That all led to the Team Hell No angle which was great too. It was all handled pretty well. The chemistry between Kane and DB then eventually led him back to face. As soon as that angle ended, DB has just shot straight to the top nonstop. Another good one was back when Batista turned face to go up against HHH at WM after HHH kept calling him dumb and trying to control him just so he could stay on top.
 
The last legit turn I can saw I saw was R-Truth's heel turn. He had the MO to back it up (JoMo screwed him and the crowd didn't care, plus he never got title shots), gradually restructured his character and just became an absolute renegade. Still makes you wonder why they never went for round 2 of that.

But recently, the turns haven't been as compelling. Mark Henry went from deceiving his wife and kids to getting cheered just because he's fighting the Shield. Big Show betrayed his team at WM just to come back and start crying. The Bellas were the supposed bad bitches of the WWE, but as soon as DB marries Brie, they're fighting AJ and start playing up to the crowd (although to their credit, they've had beef with AJ since before the face turn, so it makes sense). Turns are just coming out of nowhere, recently. Big E's was a welcome change though that made sense: he's in a rut, Heyman mocks him so he busts up the IC champ to make a statement. His turn could be well executed considering he never acted heelish to the crowd specifically.
 
To be honest the recent Del Rio heel turn was pretty brilliant. Sure Del Rio wasn't getting over as a face but the way it worked around his match with Ziggler and the double turn was so sudden but natural.

Obviously it won't be remembered as much due to the program between Ziggler/Del Rio ending too quickly. Also even if it ended Del Rio should have challenged a top face for the World Title to continue the heat, personally I would prefer if Orton challenged Del Rio at Summer Slam. Orton wouldn't have to win the title but it gives Del Rio a good transition program to work with and gives Orton something to do at the event until he cashed in his MITB.
 
There was no "art to a face or heel turn", just necessity. A heel would go face because fans were starting to cheer them in spite of their behaviour, a face might go heel because they are stalling or just not able to work with the level of charisma needed. It takes fewer muscles to frown than smile, and far fewer to be an effective heel as you're using cheating type moves and tactics.

If you look at it coldly, the best heel turns are based on firstly shock value and the investment in the relationship with the guy he's turning on. It's not Hogan and the NWO cos the fans had turned on Hogan, they were clearly not into him any more in the months up to his turn, he had feuded with Savage before and he was never a WCW guy... so him turning to side with the "WWF Guys" was a given... Had it been Sting, far different. It wouldn't be a John Cena turn now, because it'd be SO expected they could never live up to what it could have been in many peoples eyes.

When I talk about investment it is based on talented performers who you just didn't see going that route.

Look at Shawn and Marty... everything about that angle could have gone either way right up until they shook hands in the Barber Shop. The plan could easily have been for them to go on a tear and win the tag titles... but the shock factor and brutality of Shawn's attack and the 180 in character for him made it work.

Look back to another classic heel turn a couple of years earlier. Rick Martel... Here was as vanilla a babyface as you could get, teaming with Tito Santana - the 2nd most vanilla face of the time. The team were being pushed pre injury as the "next big thing" and they had a great friendship and chemistry. However you knew that Martel was always better than Santana and just waiting for his chance to shine, and Tito screwed it up,making Martel's walkout almost justified... you could feel Rick's pain with Tito's mistake, the worry that his "broken" neck could have been taken out and that he realised right then had outgrown this team and even when he was "wounded" and taking the time out the fans booed... the key was the shake of his head while grabbing his neck... he looked back heard the boos, had doubts then said "fuck it" and walked...it was a shock as Strike Force's return had been much hyped and it MEANT something cos he was walking out on the fans AND his partner.

It's no coincidence that both the turns I mentioned led to long term feuds, not the kind that take a week but EVERY year at the Rumble, Martel and Tito and The Rockers would go right for each other and the crowd would pop. The turn had meaning, consequence and emotional resonance. Owen's turn on Bret, Andre on Hogan, Davey's on Diesel... similar things, you knew that these were guys who were making a life changing choice and weren't going back if it didn't work in 3 months.

Now look at the standard turn of today, it's simply used to try and pop a character... guys like Big Show, Orton and Triple H have flip-flopped so many times that the lines have not so much been blurred but destroyed. There is no art in that, no art in going back if it doesn't work.

Likewise face turns have also been diminished by the stock WWF/E trope since 1994 being that the moment a guy starts to get over as a heel, they have to inherently make him face to be the World Champion/face of the company. Diesel, Shawn, Austin, Rock, Angle, Eddie, Benoit, Triple H, Foley, Edge, Ziggler, Punk, Sheamus, Bryan...and most importantly Cena...the list is endless. Classic face turns came not cos they were winning the big one and needed to sell more merch... it was because every heel had a line they wouldn't cross and it generally came from a better heel who the fans want to see get their comeuppance asking them to cross that line.

Look at Big Bossman back in 1989, this was a vicious heel who thought nothing of cuffing the top faces to the ropes and battering them with a nightstick... yet his face turn was memorable because it came down to his line being crossed, and his line being money... When Ted DiBiase tried to pay him off to get his belt back, to "steal" it was the trigger and Bossman turned... likewise, when DiBiase and Virgil split, Virgil had reached his limit of abuse. Both are memorable face turns because they involved personal redemption, both had been involved in heinous deeds in the eyes of the fans but in that moment they were redeemed and took the "right path" thereafter. Sure Virgil bombed but Bossman was a damn good face in 90/91 - Had Undertaker not signed then he could easily have been the big man pushed post Hogan.

More recently, Batista's turn against Triple H was memorably executed with the "thumbs down", again a line had been crossed but it was no where near effective as it was telegraphed...that Orton had fallen foul of Triple H then there was no suspense involved. This was perhaps the nadir of the "conveyor system" I mentioned - a face turn that looked good for 5 minutes but then didn't really carry once he'd won the title.
 
One of the best heel turns I remember in recent times was the Chris Jericho turn in 2009. For my money, it was on par with anything we saw in the 80's or 90's. With the way WWE rushes storylines and turns alike, it was nice to see something take the slow burn approach.

As most of you likely remember, the beginning of the turn took place when Jericho was the referee between Batista and HBK in their one-on-one match at Backlash. HBK beat Batista when he faked a knee injury, and Jericho called him out on it for weeks. The two went on to have an excellent match at Judgment Day, and even teamed together later to beat Miz and Morrison. Finally, after Jericho was convinced that HBK was injured, Michaels superkicked him with his bad leg to show him he was completely healthy. That pushed Jericho overboard, and set up a perfect turn for Jericho to throw HBK through the Jeritron, and turn on the fans as well for cheering Michaels as a liar. Looking at that turn, it produced both an amazing character in Jericho's smug character, and a feud that's rarely seen these days: It lasted six months.

As a whole, however, the art of the turn is leaps and bounds behind what it used to be, and so much of that can be blamed on one thing: A lack of characters to invest in. For example, Big E. Langston's turn on Smackdown was a nice one, and it made sense. But in reality, who cares? WWE has given us no reason whatsoever to care about Langston, as his TV appearances have been sporadic as best. As a result, it means nothing in the grand scheme of things. Langston may go on to have a great career as a face, but nobody is going to look back and see Langston's 'turn' as the pivotal point in his career. There was no build to it, he simply took offense to a comment made by Paul Heyman, and turned. No build, no brewing frustration, no change in personality. He took offense, and he's a face. He's fine in that role, but imagine how much more it would have meant had he been a 'temporary' Paul Heyman guy, lose a few times, then receive the criticism from Heyman and turn.

I'd be behind him a heckuva lot more.

These are the things that get people to care about wrestling, and invest in it. Not wrestlers thrown out for seemingly random matches, but wrestlers with personality, feelings, and character. Ones that can change over time, seeing the light through a series of events. Or a character, like Jericho, who becomes angry over legitimate events, but goes overboard in his response. Those turns are so few and far between these days that it's so much harder to care when they turn. Down the line, they may do something that makes people care about them, but it's not the turn itself that makes people do so.

There are wrestlers I want to invest in so much more, but it's so hard to do so. With most of the major stars, I know why they're a face/heel. But clear those aside, and alignment for the rest is simply and often based upon who they wrestle. If they wrestle a face, they're a heel, and vice versa. In this day and age, with so much time allotted each week, there's no excuse. The ability to go beyond one or two storylines to invest time and a story into a turn is there.

We hear so much talk about building new stars. What better way than a turn that tells a story? It doesn't happen much these days.
 
It's funny reading through the various face and heel turns over the years got me thinking about the Austin/Bret double turn, in many ways Bret really didn't do anything wrong in that match as Austin had set the tone of the feud as low down and dirty, and Austin didn't so much turn face as Bret turned full on whiny heel and in doing so fans got the green light to now switch allegiance and fully get behind Austin which was already happening at a quick rate to begin with. Nothing about Austin changed that night, he'd always been portrayed as tough.

Don't get me wrong it was brilliantly pulled off, but it just got me thinking about Brain's point regarding face turns not actually involving heels changing personality in that era. Nowadays they actually are back to full personality changes in some turns, but they have tried to soften that with some of the more recent ones like Ziggler.
 
One of the best babyface turns I've ever seen/read about was the Ted Dibiase and Ric Flair in the good ol' Mid South Wrestling. I think we all should know that one because it truly showed how Bill Watts was a genius booking one-hour television. In one night, Ted Dibiase went from the most hated guy in the territory to the one people were actually chanting for and putting their hopes on.

To summarize, a returning Ted Dibiase was beaten to a pulp at the beginning of the show by Dick Murduch, because Murduch felt that he was the one that deserved to face Ric Flair for the NWA World Championship later in the night. And so, the match was in jeopardy. However Dibiase, really bleeding and clearly messed up after the assault in the beginning of the show returned to give the fans the match they paid to see in what was billed as "The Battle of The Figure Four". Ted Dibiase lost the match by not being able to compete anymore because of his sustained injuries but in that night. not only did he showed a lot of heart and guts as he showed what a beautiful story wrestling can tell and fans were shouting: "Teddy... Teddy" instead of booing him out of the building like they were doing in the beginning of the show - it's one of the best things in Wrestling for me.

A recent turn that made me feel like that again was the Dolph Ziggler and Alberto Del Rio double turn - it happened in the match, people were buying more and more of Ziggler's work and it was such a natural and logical way to turn them. The reaction Ziggler got when he cashed in his briefcase against a then babyface Del Rio was phenomenal and that was the sole cause for the turn at the end of the day. Both Alberto Del Rio and Dolph Ziggler delivered some of the best work I've seen in the last ten years when it comes to storytelling and the lost art of babyface/heel turn.
 
I think I get were your getting at.

Take HHH's turn. Even though he was supposed to be a heel, he's been more of a tweener'ish heel rather than a fully fledged heel. Same goes for Orton as well.
 
I think I get were your getting at.

Take HHH's turn. Even though he was supposed to be a heel, he's been more of a tweener'ish heel rather than a fully fledged heel. Same goes for Orton as well.

It’s not even that. I don’t see Triple H or Orton as a tweener right now. They’re both heel. But why are they heel? I get Orton but what about Triple H? He turned heel out of nowhere at SummerSlam. He was supporting Bryan going into the event and was going against Vince (who was against Bryan). Then Triple H turns heel against Bryan stating that Bryan would not make a good face of the company and was not best for business. Why didn’t he just agree with Vince in the first place?

The problem with the Triple H turn was we saw it coming only because we read reports on the internet and after all these years we’re trained to expect the swerve. There was absolutely no indication on television that Triple H would turn heel at SummerSlam. Somewhere along the way the creative team decided it was better to surprise the fans out of the clear blue sky. It sounds good in theory and even most fans will tell you they like unpredictability. I don’t think that’s true. The payoff is so much better when we see the turn coming. In fact if we don’t see it coming it’s not really even a payoff. It’s just an occurrence.

I just posted a thread about Diesel in the old school section. I mentioned Survivor Series 94 when he turned face by breaking up his partnership with Shawn Michaels. At SummerSlam that year Michaels Superkicked Diesel costing him the IC title. It happened again a few weeks later on Raw. People were speculating Michaels was doing this on purpose because he was jealous that someone that was once known only as his bodyguard was now having more success than he was. Diesel remained loyal to Michaels but for months we knew Diesel was eventually going to have enough and turn face. That time came at Survivor Series and the fans ate it up as they finally got their payoff. Had Diesel just left Michaels after the first kick at SummerSlam the fans would have supported him but the moment of the actually turn wouldn’t have had anywhere near the drama.

I’m not saying we should see everything coming. A turn out of nowhere can still be well done but it has to make sense. Triple H’s explanation of his turn made sense but it did not support anything that happened prior to the turn.
 
It is a lost art somewhat, in part due to the speed at which storylines progress today (in the 80s you had to play feuds sometimes as long as 4-5 months to get the most business wise out them by playing them on the house show circuit, you didn't have to constantly change things with live main event matches on TV every week and monthly PPVs).

There were several epic turns in the 80s. Some you did sense were coming but that actually made it more interesting, you started watching to see if in fact they would go through with the turn or not, like Paul Orndorff in (I believe that was in 86 vs Hogan) and Savage in 89. Turning Savage face took much more time in 87-88 and was a gradual process. HBK turning on Jannety in 92 was another one that was sold for weeks on TV, teasing the tension between them, which exploded when Shawn blamed Marty (incorrectly) for costing him a match vs Flair.

Others that were shocking was Andre in 87 (he'd been a beloved fan fav for 20 years, no one saw that coming), Flair in 85 (he might have been a womanizing partier but he was all American, sick of the evil Russians denigrating his country) and in 89 (his respect for Steamboat, feelings of owing Sting for defending him, hatred for Terry Funk), Lex Luger in 88 (dumping the Horsemen), Undertaker in 92 (turning on Jake Roberts over his violence towards Elizabeth), each of these was a pretty huge event.

Again, I blame the way the product is showcased more than the performers, storylines, except maybe at the very top of the card, are not given much time to really take shape, so character development, including heel and face turns, are not executed as well.
 

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