Sid Vicious

[X]

It's not, and that has been my point all along. They're both wrestling moves. The difference is that too many wrestlers rely on the 450 splash to pop a crowd, because they can't do german suplexes to pop a crowd, due to the fact they are terrible wrestlers.

And why is popping a crowd with a 450 splash instead of a suplex seen as inferior Sly? How does that make you a terrible wrestler?

If I'm a terrible wrestler, and I want to pop a crowd, I'll do a 450 splash, not a running bulldog. Why? Because idiotic fans (a category in which a good majority of the IWC falls under) will pop for a 450 Splash and think the wrestler who can do it is awesome.

Are you suggesting a 450 splash doesn't require a hell of a lot more skill and talent to perform than a bulldog?

Oh, and xfear, this thread is hardly representative of the IWC. In fact, I think there has only been two or three posters who have come anywhere near that philosophy that high spots=spot monkey.

Just as many people as you claim think that wrestlers suck if they can't do a flip. In fact we've had two different people in this very thread make the case that wrestlers like JoMo and Bourne suck because they "only do flips", and I haven't seen a single person in this thread say that a wrestler sucks if he can't do flips.

Because their entire feud was story-driven. You take the story away from the matches and you just have senseless brawling.

Dear Lord, you too? You and Sarcy have a lot to learn about wrestling. The point of a wrestling match is to TELL A STORY. "Take away the storytelling..." are you shitting me? That's the entire point of any match, ever, from the longest technical match to the most high-spot driven match. The Foley-Rock matches were all great, especially the Rumble match.

And how was the brawling "senseless"? That's beyond ridiculous considering the long and heated feud they had.

 

[Hulk Hogan's Brother]

The match was story-driven. Way to prove my point. Besides the match itself wasn't where the story started. It was during Bret return at the previous Survivor Series.

Yes it did not start there. But you could see the story pretty clearly in the match too. Bret is the experienced veteran who is getting more and more pissed at Austin by the second while Austin is this loudmouth who is a good wrestler but a bit inexperienced to beat Bret at his own game.

 

[Hulk Hogan's Brother]

Just as many people as you claim think that wrestlers suck if they can't do a flip. In fact we've had two different people in this very thread make the case that wrestlers like JoMo and Bourne suck because they "only do flips", and I haven't seen a single person in this thread say that a wrestler sucks if he can't do flips.

Well this is more like a super smark crowd. Before coming to these forums I had some notion that every smark hates John Cena. But that is far from the case.

The thing is I have not seen much of Bourne other than the SSP which is a reason why he is loved so much. Its okay to do "flips" as you say but doing only flips does not make you a good wrester. He has to do a bit more in my opinion.

 

[Pay Per Ghost]

Isn't, technically, almost every pro-wrestler a spot monkey?

 

[Remix]

And how was the brawling "senseless"? That's beyond ridiculous considering the long and heated feud they had.

I think that was his point. If you take the match out of context and it's just The Rock and Mankind beating all kinds of shit out of eachother.

 

[ABMorales787]

Dear Lord, you too? You and Sarcy have a lot to learn about wrestling. The point of a wrestling match is to TELL A STORY. "Take away the storytelling..." are you shitting me? That's the entire point of any match, ever, from the longest technical match to the most high-spot driven match. The Foley-Rock matches were all great, especially the Rumble match.

But... That was my point.

And how was the brawling "senseless"? That's beyond ridiculous considering the long and heated feud they had.

Well without a story, you'd have to wonder why are they fighting. Meaning it's senseless. I think you confused yourself.

 

[Slyfox696]

And why is popping a crowd with a 450 splash instead of a suplex seen as inferior Sly? How does that make you a terrible wrestler?

No one said it was. What I said was that a GOOD wrestler can get a pop with either move. A bad wrestler DEPENDS upon the 450 splash to get the pop, because he can't get the crowd response any other way.

It's not inferior at all, no one said it was. But when you do the move to pop the crowd because you don't have the ability to pop a crowd any other way, that's when it's bad.

Are you suggesting a 450 splash doesn't require a hell of a lot more skill and talent to perform than a bulldog?

Not at all. What I'm saying is that a bulldog, by itself, won't get a pop. To get a pop from a bulldog, you have to set up the spot, build the crowd's interest, work them into the match, and make the move believable. To get a pop from a bulldog requires skill.

To get a pop from a 450 splash, you just have to climb the ropes and do a flippy. Idiotic fans ooh and aww over that, regardless of whether or not it makes sense in the context of the match, and if it's built properly.

Just as many people as you claim think that wrestlers suck if they can't do a flip. In fact we've had two different people in this very thread make the case that wrestlers like JoMo and Bourne suck because they "only do flips", and I haven't seen a single person in this thread say that a wrestler sucks if he can't do flips.

If a wrestler can only do flips, then they probably do struggle to put on a good match.

What exactly is your point? And, more importantly, are you even trying to comprehend what I'm saying? Or are you just convinced we're all out to piss on high spots in wrestling?

Isn't, technically, almost every pro-wrestler a spot monkey?

No, I've already covered this earlier in the thread.

 

[X]

But... That was my point.


Well without a story, you'd have to wonder why are they fighting. Meaning it's senseless. I think you confused yourself.

My bad, thought you were arguing that the match sucked because it was just senseless brawling and was more story than a good match. Which is why I brought up that a good match is about the story.

 

[Coco]

No one said it was. What I said was that a GOOD wrestler can get a pop with either move. A bad wrestler DEPENDS upon the 450 splash to get the pop, because he can't get the crowd response any other way.

It's not inferior at all, no one said it was. But when you do the move to pop the crowd because you don't have the ability to pop a crowd any other way, that's when it's bad.

This is starting to sound a lot like the silly old arguments about "cheap heat."

 

[Slyfox696]

This is starting to sound a lot like the silly old arguments about "cheap heat."

Completely different from cheap heat. Anymore, with how "smart" fans thunk they are to the business now, about the only types of heel heat possible are cheap heat or what the IWC calls x-PAC heat, both of which are stupid.

This is nothing like that.

 

[klunderbunker]

Mick Foley made a very fine career for himself on cheap heat. I think it works fairly well.

 

[X]

...Huh? No he didn't. Foley....in fact Foley never used cheap heat to my recollection. The closest thing was when he was commish and doing the cheap pop thing in every town. Foley made a career on meticulously well-crafted promos and bumping like no one else ever could.

 

[Hulk Hogan's Brother]

...Huh? No he didn't. Foley....in fact Foley never used cheap heat to my recollection. The closest thing was when he was commish and doing the cheap pop thing in every town. Foley made a career on meticulously well-crafted promos and bumping like no one else ever could.

I agree. Especially when he debuted as Mankind. Those promos were frickin' scary.

 

[The Bearded One]

Triple post!

But really, couldn't any heat be considered "cheap heat?" How is making fun of the city any more cheap than baeting down a babyface? Both are simple ways of getting a heel over. I don't honestly believe there is any such thing as cheap heat.

 

[Hulk Hogan's Brother]

lol yeah triple post!!!!

By the way, for all the pops that Sid Vicious generates he cannot even generate a thread in his name among the IWC.

 

[Slyfox696]

But really, couldn't any heat be considered "cheap heat?" How is making fun of the city any more cheap than baeting down a babyface? Both are simple ways of getting a heel over. I don't honestly believe there is any such thing as cheap heat.

Well, of course there's such a thing as cheap heat. You have to remember, heat isn't not just exclusive to heels, it applies to faces as well. I believe it was xfear who pointed out Foley saying the name of the town to get cheap heat.

That being said, you will not find me on the list of posters who think cheap heat is a bad thing. But it definitely exists. Heck, most face turns qualify as cheap heat, if you ask me. Usually a face turn exists in the face saving a fellow face from a heel, or deciding he's doing the wrong thing, and decides to be nice. Both of those are considered cheap heat, in my opinion, as neither one is necessarily dependent upon any skill, but rather just saying "okay, I'll do what everyone wants me to do". As I said, it's not a BAD thing, but it does exist.

 

[klunderbunker]

In Forever Hardcore Shane Douglas talked about Smarks, but points out that the last part of that word is still mark.

Cheap heat may be easy to get, but it's better than zero heat and always will be. Every evil foreigner character is using one of the most basic forms of heat there is: my country is better than your's and I'm going to prove it. If that isn't cheap heat I don't know what is, but it's probably the most secure form of a heel there is.

 

[Hulk Hogan's Brother]

Good grief where is Sid Vicious in this thread?

But I agree that cheap heat is better than no heat. A good example of a guy who turned pretty "cheaply" is Matt Morgan on TNA recently.

 

[Miko]

"Cheap heats" good and all, but I guess it doesnt carry on through to the next week like genuine affection for a wrestler. Sid Vicious was a guy that fans genuinely cared about, he got huge pops, I think I read a thread somewhere about the huge crowd reactions he used to get.

Kinda unfair to say that Foley made his career from cheap heat, people absolutely loved/love the guy, is proved by that thingy that happened when WCW announced he won the World Title. He just played to the crowd more than most, saying wanker at the No Mercy PPV that was in England for example.