Should Cena break Flair's record?

[FlairFan2003]

I don't understand why Flair has always been called a 16-time champ when he's really been champion 22 times (as I see others have pointed out in here). .

Flair is officially recognized as 16 time champion and not 22 time or whatever because of sanctioned matches.

In the early 80s Flair worked a 3 weeks on - 2 weeks off schedule with the NWA but when he was off he often took bookings in other promotions. This was pretty common back then, Flair routinely showed up in the AWA as a favor to Verne Gagne who got him started in the business. Flair was also extremely popular in Japan and toured their regularly, sometimes facing other American wrestlers (like his NWA vs AWA Title Match with Rick Martel in 1985) or the top Japanese stars. Flair wrestled occasionally in WWE in the pre Hogan-Vince Jr era as well, and WWE wrestlers would come down on theior off time for big pay days and wrestled him in the NWA (Like his WWE vs NWA Title Match with Bob Backlund in Atlanta).

In the US and Japan where match results would be published Flair never lost these non NWA matches, therefore his title never switched hands. In South America however match results typically didn't make it to the US, the US wrestling magazines covered very little of what happened there. Flair routinely took bookings in South America and would agree to come in as a heel, lose to the local fan fave, then stay a few days so promoters could put together the re match, then win the title back, usually by cheating, which would allow the local hero to save face in the loss while getting the benefit of beating Ric Flair. These matches were not sanctioned by the NWA however and therefore were not considered official NWA Title matches so the results never counted in his won-lost record of championships.

Some fans argue that Flair should have been given credit for a title reign when he unified the WCW & International Titles in 1994 pinning Sting at Clash of Champions but it was a WCW decision to just consider that a continuation of his existing title reign and WWE and Pro Wrestling Illustrated have decided not to challenge this.

 

[FlairFan2003]

One of the issues I've always had with Flair is how he spent so much of his career putting people over him- especially since the time I began to watch wrestling. Admittedly much of it might not have been his fault, particularly during Round 1 of his WWF career. He was also the victim of backstage politics during WcW. But he stayed in the ring for way too long and it's a given that his primary job is to put people over.

The problem is that Ric Flair, while he could still move, looked his age. To me, going over a legend means little when you're having a competitive match with a dude obviously past his prime. Kane in some ways might be worse, as at least Flair's strength always seemed to be his moveset, while Kane has been a powerhouse- whose muscles don't look particularly impressive anymore. I have to presume that in his prime, Flair would've wiped the floor with the entire roster (in terms of kayfabe).

At least with the Big Show, he still looks imposing and dangerous. Even Mark Henry still looks strong. Shawn Michaels looked as good as he ever did, even though I have to imagine age had effected him too.

Others point out that it was a testament to his popularity that he was so bullet proof with fans that even when booked poorly in WCW he was still one the most popular stars around. Flair was also a very old school guy in that he was willing to "do whats right for business" and put over next generation stars like Sting or Luger occasionally to elevate them, the same way guys like Terry Funk, Harley Race, and others had done for him in the late 70s and early 80s. In his first WWE run he put over Randy Savage several times but also beat him for the World Title. He won the Royal Rumble and Survivor Series and had several wins over Piper, plus wins over HBK & Brett Hart and Sgt Slaughter. He won and lost (all on DQs and count outs) vs Hogan one on one but did take pinfalls in tag matches at house shows. Hart was the only guy, after a couple of early wins, that he really put over in WWE during that run aside for Henning, who was handpicked to take his spot on the roster when he left.

In his last WWE run Flair did was right for a legend to do, he worked hard, contributed to the product, and while he was given several high profile wins over top stars like Chris Jericho, Eddie Guerrero, MVP, HBK, HHH, Edge, & Mick Foley as well as a few others like Randy Orton, he also gave back high profile losses to up and comers like Jeff Hardy & Edge and put over a few main eventers such as Angle, Austin & Taker. He was "gave back" without being made into a buffoon or career jobber (the way people complain about Jericho today).

 

[MartialHorror]

Others point out that it was a testament to his popularity that he was so bullet proof with fans that even when booked poorly in WCW he was still one the most popular stars around. Flair was also a very old school guy in that he was willing to "do whats right for business" and put over next generation stars like Sting or Luger occasionally to elevate them, the same way guys like Terry Funk, Harley Race, and others had done for him in the late 70s and early 80s. In his first WWE run he put over Randy Savage several times but also beat him for the World Title. He won the Royal Rumble and Survivor Series and had several wins over Piper, plus wins over HBK & Brett Hart and Sgt Slaughter. He won and lost (all on DQs and count outs) vs Hogan one on one but did take pinfalls in tag matches at house shows. Hart was the only guy, after a couple of early wins, that he really put over in WWE during that run aside for Henning, who was handpicked to take his spot on the roster when he left.

In his last WWE run Flair did was right for a legend to do, he worked hard, contributed to the product, and while he was given several high profile wins over top stars like Chris Jericho, Eddie Guerrero, MVP, HBK, HHH, Edge, & Mick Foley as well as a few others like Randy Orton, he also gave back high profile losses to up and comers like Jeff Hardy & Edge and put over a few main eventers such as Angle, Austin & Taker. He was "gave back" without being made into a buffoon or career jobber (the way people complain about Jericho today).

I probably should've elaborated a bit...or cut down my post and only include my point- Ric stayed around for too long. It's debatable whether it hurt his legacy at all, but I personally think he should've retired 10 years before he did. Or at the absolute least, he should've adopted a stricter part time schedule.

But you're absolutely right. That's what Flair should be doing. Another reason why I think Flair is protected more than Kane- in terms of his legacy- is Flair's match quality remained strong until the end. It's more of a personal gripe when 'barely conquering old people' is considered being put over.But if it works, then it works.

 

[kadroan]

Considering Cena is already a 15-time World Champion, one more title reign and he ties Nature Boy Ric Flair's record of 16 World Titles so should Cena break Flair's record and be recognized as the greatest of all time? Honestly in my opinion Cena should not break the record if anything personally I feel he isn't worthy of it but if anything Cena probably will break the record but Flair has had this record for years now but records are meant to be broken

Cena is not worthy but we all know he will but if anyone should have been the one to surpass Flair it should have been Randy Orton, Flair's former Evolution teammate and protege now he should have been the one to surpass Flair breaking Flair's record or even The Rated R Superstar Edge being the one to break Flair's record of title reigns if Edge had never sustained that career-ending injury

He probably will break it but he still won't be the greatest of all time. Cena still got a couple of years left in him so it wouldn't surprise me if breaks Flair's record.

I'm surprised HHH didn't break the record. He was so close when he was an active wrestler.

 

[ECW Sandman]

Although I don't want to see it broken there is a high possibility of John Cena breaking Ric Flairs title wins its just like in NASCAR I don't like Jimmie Johnson and he is two championships away of Breaking Richard Petty and Dale Earnhardt's tied 7th Championship .

 

[MrMojoRisin]

Flair is officially recognized as 16 time champion and not 22 time or whatever because of sanctioned matches.

In the early 80s Flair worked a 3 weeks on - 2 weeks off schedule with the NWA but when he was off he often took bookings in other promotions. This was pretty common back then, Flair routinely showed up in the AWA as a favor to Verne Gagne who got him started in the business. Flair was also extremely popular in Japan and toured their regularly, sometimes facing other American wrestlers (like his NWA vs AWA Title Match with Rick Martel in 1985) or the top Japanese stars. Flair wrestled occasionally in WWE in the pre Hogan-Vince Jr era as well, and WWE wrestlers would come down on theior off time for big pay days and wrestled him in the NWA (Like his WWE vs NWA Title Match with Bob Backlund in Atlanta).

In the US and Japan where match results would be published Flair never lost these non NWA matches, therefore his title never switched hands. In South America however match results typically didn't make it to the US, the US wrestling magazines covered very little of what happened there. Flair routinely took bookings in South America and would agree to come in as a heel, lose to the local fan fave, then stay a few days so promoters could put together the re match, then win the title back, usually by cheating, which would allow the local hero to save face in the loss while getting the benefit of beating Ric Flair. These matches were not sanctioned by the NWA however and therefore were not considered official NWA Title matches so the results never counted in his won-lost record of championships.

Some fans argue that Flair should have been given credit for a title reign when he unified the WCW & International Titles in 1994 pinning Sting at Clash of Champions but it was a WCW decision to just consider that a continuation of his existing title reign and WWE and Pro Wrestling Illustrated have decided not to challenge this.

I called it

And thank you for this post, because it's exactly what I was referring to when I said there'd be a raging debate on exactly how many titles Flair won if Cena ever breaks the 'record'.

Lots of people here have mentioned his '22' reigns, but like you say, some of those were not sanctioned matches or in the case of the whole WCW "International" title... double dipping. The thing is... that 22 number is just what people have been able to verify from Flair's extracurricular dealings as champ. From what I've heard, there could be dozens of more title switches that we just don't know about. Flair was not shy about not doing what the NWA board wanted as long as he knew there was very little chance of it coming back to hurt him, and these phantom switches were very lucrative for him.

Also, just to clear up some misinformation about one of the phantom switches. When Flair dropped the title to Jack Verano, the title wasn't returned to Flair because Verano refused to defend outside of the Dominican Republic. Verano won the title in the first place because Flair was scared to death that the crowd was going to riot if Verano didn't win. Then later before he flew back home, he just took the belt back with him.

From what I understand, the Colon title switch was for the same reason.

 

[BattleCat]

I get a kick out of you guys who say this thread has been done a million times...yet feel the need to include your oh so important opinions on each and every one of them. "Oh man! Another Cena/Flair thread! Oh how I wish the WrestleZone readers didn't look to me to answer every single time!" Pssst....it's ok.

Personally, I never got the appeal of records in professional wrestling. I remember when some others were making a big deal about Royal Rumble wins and eliminations. I just picture Vince writing a result down, a wrestler saying he is one shy of the record, Vince erasing and changing what he wrote. Done! Record achieved! Not tough to get done.

But aside from the irrelevance of records based on predetermined outcomes, who is going to be upset if Flair's record falls? The ones old enough to remember Flair's reigns have, for the most part, grown up and moved on. Those who are young enough to watch WWE now don't have that attachment to Flair's reign. (Aside from you lifers, of course)

Finally, who in their right mind still attaches any value to championships these days? These belts have been hot potatoes since the 90s. I'll leave alone the fact that Flair lost the belt 16 times too. But, his titles meant much more then than any of Cena's have.

Titles are ornaments these days and do not mean nearly as much as they did during Flair's prime. Getting your panties in a bunch over something that some guy with a pen can change at any time is ridiculous. The value of the reign WHILE holding the belt is what should matter....the quality, not the quantity.

 

[jamesubrown1]

Cena is still going strong and its only a matter of time until he breaks the record and even cena beat it...

 

[Kris Benwa]

I've been thinking about this recently and I think yes. I would like either the tying of the record or the beating of it to be as a heel and the other as a face. I think you can do it either way and it would be fascinating to see the storyline for it IMO

 

[brochester8]

It's a new day in age of being the champion. 16x's was a lot back then but with Cena he's probably got another 5 to 10 runs left because of they way the business is today. Many runs barely make a month in length. So yes Cena will brake Flair's record, and it's really not that big a deal