Round 4: Ferbian -vs- Unsex

[D-Man]

Outside of the wrestling itself; The Rock, Steve Austin, Chris Jericho, Jesse Ventura and Trish Stratus have transitioned to the mainstream where others have not. Did professional wrestling cause more harm or good in this transition?

This is a fourth round match in the Debater's League. Ferbian is the home debater and gets to choose which side of the debate they will be on and who debates first, but they have 24 hours to make their choice.

This thread is for DEBATERS ONLY and will end on Friday at 2pm EST.

Anyone that posts in this thread besides the debaters, league admins, and judges will be infracted!

Good luck.​

 

[Ferbian]

I would like to start, and I will debate that professional wrestling have not caused harm to their transition.

 

[Ferbian]

Good luck Remix, I shall enjoy this. And I would like to request that this doesn't turn into a sentence dissection like our previous debates.

Outside of the wrestling itself; The Rock, Steve Austin, Chris Jericho, Jesse Ventura and Trish Stratus have transitioned to the mainstream where others have not. Did professional wrestling cause more harm or good in this transition?

As you can see, I'll be trying to prove to everybody that all of these former or current WWE wrestlers and their career within the WWE have not damaged the transition to other careers.

Let's have a look at them all at first.

The Rock​

Probably the biggest transition. This guy transitioned into the movie business, and with good success. While still continuing his WWE career at that given time. The Rock have stared in numerous, and I mean numerous movies, both related to WWE as well as not related to WWE.

The fact that the majority of these movies have become a success at all is due to The Rocks exposure as a very talented, very over wrestler during his time in the Attitude Era as well as briefly after the Attitude Era. Without professional wrestling, hell would we even care about The Rock? He most likely would've never had a movie career without wrestling. And if he did, his first movie wouldn't have been a big success, just like anybody else who gets their first lead role as an unknown name.

The Rock can thank professional wrestling for his popularity, for his paychecks, for everything in his life. To say that professional wrestling hurt this transition is, and always will be bullshit.

Steve Austin​

Took this guy a while to transit into the movie scenes. Quite surprising if you ask me. Nonetheless he has stared in his share of blockbuster movies. Austin is arguably the biggest name in professional wrestling history, only overdone by Hulk Hogan if anybody.

Austin's popularity is once again due to professional wrestling. He developed his character, the very bad-ass he has gotten to display in every single one of his movies due to his WWE character. This guy, just like The Rock can thank all of his accolades as well as his fanfare due to professional wrestling.

Austin is a big draw, his movies might not directly sell like The Rock's movies. However he's still a big guy to have on the list of featured names for a movie, no matter the concept of it. Steve is one of the biggest draws in professional wrestling history, and he used this to transit into the movie business.

Jesse Ventura​

Okay, I'll admit I do not know very very much about this guys career. However I know that he had spend his time featured on the microphone in WWF alongside Vince McMahon as announcers. Jesse has moved onto politics, something he most likely would always have had the interest of. However the transit has helped due to professional wrestling, in professional wrestling he got the chance to display his talking abilities. Talking abilities which is pretty much the primary thing for a governor, a senator or hell even the president.

Without talking abilities, how do you convince people to vote for you? Some say that people in his business benefits from the ability to lie - All politicians are liars so to say. Jesse's time spend in professional wrestling taught him to play a role, to put up a barrier, a gimmick. He has the ability to convince people of where he stands, thanks to professional wrestling.

Jesse is a great talker - Thank professional wrestling for that.

Chris Jericho​

Singer, actor, radio-host, television host. This guy has done it all, and it's thanks to professional wrestling. He got the ability to build confidence and a fanfare due to professional wrestling, the fact that this guy got to stand in front of thousands on a weekly basic in both WCW as well as WWF/E has helped him to the point where he knows how to make the crowd react.

Hell you can say all of them have learned to make the crowd react. But Jericho is truly a thing of another league. He can get the crowd behind him, or against him like few others. Something that transits very very well to a musical career, as well as to television, and practically anything Jericho has ever done.

He got the position to showcase his ability to talk for a guy his size, to make it in a world where very few would've believed in him 10-20 years prior to that. Chris is indeed the perfect transition to a career outside of professional wrestling. Chris can thank professional wrestling for his exposure, just like anybody else. And Chris can thank professional wrestling for giving him the stepping stone to showcase that this guy, he can do anything.

Trish Stratus​

This is a fun one, hell the first thought I had about this girl is "Nah, professional wrestling didn't do jack shit for her, her tits did". But then I thought, Trish is the biggest female name in professional wrestling, ever. Screw Moolah, screw Chyna, screw Sunny. Trish Stratus is where it all lies.

Trish got over through her body, that's obvious. But she later on became known as the greatest female wrestler of all time, the biggest female name in the business. Trish can thank Vince McMahon and professional wrestling for the fact that people even care about anything but, well her tits.

After professional wrestling Trish has managed to land various different jobs, but the majority of it required some kind of backing from the crowd. She has been a spokesman for World Natural Sport Association, great example because she's athletic, and she has showcased that women is indeed able to make it in a man's world. She has all the credentials to do all kind of jobs as spokesman, as well as yoga classes, television etc.

They all can thank professional wrestling for their popularity, for their exposure. They all thrived in a period where professional wrestling were at a high point, big fanfare and all that. Their careers outsides of the business, have been positively affected by their time with professional wrestling.

 

[Remix]

Before I start, I'd like to apologuise for not responding earlier, however I have been on holiday and thus away from the internet. and without further ado I shall commence the refutation.

Why professional wrestlers transitioning to the mainstream has harmed the business

As the title suggests I am going to talk about why pro wrestlers stepping from the ring to other persuits, be they acting, singing or politics. People using pro wrestling as a stepping stone to other persuits has harmed the buisness in many ways which I will highlight in more detail later on.

THe first and most obvious reason is that wrestlers stepping away from wrestling deprives us of their tallent. This is important because the very thing that made them a success in WWE will be used to make them a success wherever else they go. This in itself is fine. After all, they're just playing with the toys god has given them. However, When you think deeper about this you'll come to the conclusions that it makes WWE seem like an international stage school and that removing assets from the company is a bad thing.

It makes WWE seem like a stage school for the simple reason that a stage school is a place you go to learn how to act. And where do these traitors to the buisness learn to act? WWE. Allow me to demonstrate using The Rock's WWE progression as an actor

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Now, power to Dwayne for learning how to act but WWE has become nothing more than a stage school to him now. And taking perception from WWE as an entertainment juggernaut to stage school is not a favorable thing.

And I'm not going to go into detail about why assets leaving early is bad, because I'm not going to insult your intelligence by explaining why losing entertaining draws is bad.

The next reason it's bad for the busness is that in many cases it will lead to cross pomomtions. Now that's all well and good, if it's fairly innocuous like mentioning it every now and again and putting trailers in the shows. Fairly annoying at times, but oither than that not too bad. However It's rarely that subtle. Remember the May 19th storyline which was dropped for no apparent reason a week later? What a wonderful idea, to centre a storyline around people hearing Kane's thoughts whenever he heard the release date for his movie And then he showed up on the red carpet in his ring gear (for some reason). And even if that abomination of a storyline wasn't bad enough, cross promotion can result in people who can't wrestle being thrust into high profile storylines. Allow me to introduce Zeus:

This was an actor who starred with Hulk Hogan in the (abomination of a movie) No Holds Barred. In order to cross promote the movie he was in a storyline with THE BIGGEST WRESTLER THE BUSINESS HAS EVER PRODUCED. Let that sink in for a moment. This guy was wrestling Hulk Hogan on pay per view despite being an actor who couldn't wrestle for toffee. I'll let FTS hammer this point home, if I may.

And finally, wrestlers successfully going from wrestler to actor (or singer/polititian but acotors are going to be more common) will only encourage others to try the same. And this is bad. Because frankly my dear they won't give a damn about the business, they're simply in it for themselves to become well known enough to segue into other media roles. And to give you a modern example of somebody who doesn't give a rat's ass about the buisness who is using his position on WWE to get media attention:

Yeah, I don't want to watch a WWE where there are more people like David Otunga.

So yeah, people using WWE as a means to their own selfish ends is a bad thing for many reasons. The list starts with it devaluing the promotion to that of a glorified school of the arts, and ends with it enticing the likes of David Otunga to join WWE to attract the tabloids to talk about him and his ugly wife.

 

[Ferbian]

I wanna start off by saying, as Remix have noted in the Debater's League thread in The Cage, he realized he has been debating off something which would be considered off-topic. Therefore for the sake of furthering debate, while trying my best to keep it on-topic myself. I took the liberty of removing chunks of Remix's arguments that I felt did nothing to further the subject at hand, rather than to further what Remix mistaked for the subject.

I'll look forward to your next reply nonetheless mate, obviously now you've realized what the subject is about.

Why professional wrestlers transitioning to the mainstream has harmed the business

THe first and most obvious reason is that wrestlers stepping away from wrestling deprives us of their tallent. This is important because the very thing that made them a success in WWE will be used to make them a success wherever else they go. This in itself is fine. After all, they're just playing with the toys god has given them. However, When you think deeper about this you'll come to the conclusions that it makes WWE seem like an international stage school and that removing assets from the company is a bad thing.

Depriving the wrestling business of their talent does absolutely nothing for hurting the transition in itself. It's a shame that we loose them, I get that. However the fact that all of the mentioned names made successful transitions to other careers, is more than enough to show that professional wrestling didn't hurt, but only helped their transitions.

In theory what you're saying about the staging school does nothing for hurting them in their transition. It practically helps them, in the way that we're not discrediting developmental territories, for doing exactly the same thing, while keeping it in the business.

So really a staging school is just fine, it helps them develop for bigger and better things. Because, while we're all wrestling fans, let's be honest, a movie career is pretty much superior to a wrestling career in any way with exception of lacking potential of a Hall of Fame induction if you're not the top of the crop in the movie business).

It makes WWE seem like a stage school for the simple reason that a stage school is a place you go to learn how to act. And where do these traitors to the buisness learn to act? WWE. Allow me to demonstrate using The Rock's WWE progression as an actor

Again, professional wrestling have only helped The Rock improve by time to make it a better transition into movie making. Professional wrestling being a stage school only helps, doesn't hurt.

And finally, wrestlers successfully going from wrestler to actor (or singer/polititian but acotors are going to be more common) will only encourage others to try the same. And this is bad. Because frankly my dear they won't give a damn about the business, they're simply in it for themselves to become well known enough to segue into other media roles. And to give you a modern example of somebody who doesn't give a rat's ass about the buisness who is using his position on WWE to get media attention:

Once again, encouraging others to do the same might be bad for business. But it doesn't hurt their careers when you provide them the stepping stone, especially not considering that professional wrestling launches some people into a successful career elsewhere, and therefore has no place in hurting their transitions, rather than simply helping it.

Yeah, I don't want to watch a WWE where there are more people like David Otunga.

So yeah, people using WWE as a means to their own selfish ends is a bad thing for many reasons. The list starts with it devaluing the promotion to that of a glorified school of the arts, and ends with it enticing the likes of David Otunga to join WWE to attract the tabloids to talk about him and his ugly wife.

David Otunga is merely a guy that made a successful transition into wrestling from a celebrity career, which is partially nothing more than appearing as the partner of Jennifer Hudson. Hardly a career.

However David Otunga going into wrestling, and with the already slightly Hollywood exposed career, would obviously benefit a lot from getting a fanfare and a firm stand in the WWE side of the wrestling business. Eventually, if he decides to leave, this popularity, as well as the exposure of him being a pretty good talker, will obviously help him in the movie business.

 

[Remix]

Depriving the wrestling business of their talent does absolutely nothing for hurting the transition in itself. It's a shame that we loose them, I get that. However the fact that all of the mentioned names made successful transitions to other careers, is more than enough to show that professional wrestling didn't hurt, but only helped their transitions.

But what about the people who don't make a success of themselves? What of the Virgils (now a teacher) who will be laughed at by their charges, or the Clarence Masons (now a lawyer) who could lose buisness because of some of their ring antics (if you don't think that's a concern look at Linda McMahon who was only tangentially linked to most of the Attitude Era stuff that was smered on her). Did trhe wrestling buisness really help THEM? I think not.

In theory what you're saying about the staging school does nothing for hurting them in their transition. It practically helps them, in the way that we're not discrediting developmental territories, for doing exactly the same thing, while keeping it in the business.

Well, given what happened to the territories as a result of them going from the way the buisness worked to irrelevent, I think we can safely say that6 WWE bwecoming a glorified stage school in the eye of the masses does hurt it.

So really a staging school is just fine, it helps them develop for bigger and better things. Because, while we're all wrestling fans, let's be honest, a movie career is pretty much superior to a wrestling career in any way with exception of lacking potential of a Hall of Fame induction if you're not the top of the crop in the movie business).

In the 1% of cases, indeed. However the vast majority of people aren't going to be successful movie stars. And in most of those cases the wrestling buisness is going to hurt, not help them. Did the wrestling buisness help Bill Goldburg (who was, undeniably a big star)? And in a lot of cases, people who could have stepped away from Pro wrestling now cannot because of injuries sustained on the road.

Again, professional wrestling have only helped The Rock improve by time to make it a better transition into movie making. Professional wrestling being a stage school only helps, doesn't hurt.

Helps who? The Rock and Austin were exceptional. Most wrestlers who part ways with the "E" don't have it to thank if they make a success elsewhere.

And for people who want to take Rocky's path? WWE's decline in status doesn't help them in the slightest. After all, if more people are going from Wrestling => movies the novelty wears off and movie studios will be less inclined to hire them over other big guys from a normal stage school in their action flics, leaving us with guys who want to leave the buisness but can't at the top of the card.

See Wrestlemania XX for what happens when two guys who don't want to be in the company any more meet in in the ring.

Once again, encouraging others to do the same might be bad for business. But it doesn't hurt their careers when you provide them the stepping stone, especially not considering that professional wrestling launches some people into a successful career elsewhere, and therefore has no place in hurting their transitions, rather than simply helping it.

See above. Once everybody's doing it it's not special any more and (A) hurts their chances of actually making it (B) Hurts the product and (C) if you've got a lot of actors trying to be wrestlers in your company, somebody's getting hurt, and that's good for nobody.

David Otunga is merely a guy that made a successful transition into wrestling from a celebrity career, which is partially nothing more than appearing as the partner of Jennifer Hudson. Hardly a career.

However David Otunga going into wrestling, and with the already slightly Hollywood exposed career, would obviously benefit a lot from getting a fanfare and a firm stand in the WWE side of the wrestling business. Eventually, if he decides to leave, this popularity, as well as the exposure of him being a pretty good talker, will obviously help him in the movie business.

Ferb, it's not David Otunga per se. It's what he represents. The people who see wrestling as nothing more than a way to get publicity. And Those people, like everybody else who's been in the buisness for publicity will be godawful in the ring. And unless you want tro defend Otunga, Arquette and Zeus' ring work you'll agree that's a bad thing.

 

[Ferbian]

But what about the people who don't make a success of themselves? What of the Virgils (now a teacher) who will be laughed at by their charges, or the Clarence Masons (now a lawyer) who could lose buisness because of some of their ring antics (if you don't think that's a concern look at Linda McMahon who was only tangentially linked to most of the Attitude Era stuff that was smered on her). Did trhe wrestling buisness really help THEM? I think not.

True that, however that is not who it's about this debate young Remix. It's about the people mentioned in the OP. Here, let me refresh it for you.

Outside of the wrestling itself; The Rock, Steve Austin, Chris Jericho, Jesse Ventura and Trish Stratus have transitioned to the mainstream where others have not. Did professional wrestling cause more harm or good in this transition?

Not everybody have transitioned perfectly into another career and can thank wrestling because of it. Because not everybody has successfully transitioned into a career where the things they did in wrestling benefits them at all.

You mention Virgil, who's a teacher. His career as Ted DiBiase's lackey did jack shit for his ability to be a teacher.

Well, given what happened to the territories as a result of them going from the way the buisness worked to irrelevent, I think we can safely say that6 WWE bwecoming a glorified stage school in the eye of the masses does hurt it.

Hurt wrestling, but not the wrestlers that transit. They are provided a stepping stone to prove their abilities to make it elsewhere it deemed necessary or deemed as a wishful career move.

In the 1% of cases, indeed. However the vast majority of people aren't going to be successful movie stars. And in most of those cases the wrestling buisness is going to hurt, not help them. Did the wrestling buisness help Bill Goldburg (who was, undeniably a big star)? And in a lot of cases, people who could have stepped away from Pro wrestling now cannot because of injuries sustained on the road.

Of course not the majority. But there's success elsewhere, there's different careers. Obviously Jesse Ventura and Chris Jericho aren't the thing for the music business, Jesse is politics, Jericho is music. Two places where they have more than thrived.

Jericho like I mentioned in my opening statement has great abilities to work the crowd, something a musician truly benefits from. Jesse has benefits in proving his ability to be one hell of a talker.

Helps who? The Rock and Austin were exceptional. Most wrestlers who part ways with the "E" don't have it to thank if they make a success elsewhere.

Well, it is about Austin and The Rock.. So..

And for people who want to take Rocky's path? WWE's decline in status doesn't help them in the slightest. After all, if more people are going from Wrestling => movies the novelty wears off and movie studios will be less inclined to hire them over other big guys from a normal stage school in their action flics, leaving us with guys who want to leave the buisness but can't at the top of the card.

The decline isn't nearly as critical as you make it out to be Remix. Yes WWE has declined, but professional wrestling still proves as quite a way of getting noticed for a fair deal of wrestlers who are actually worth a damn.

The Rock, Austin, Jericho, Trish and Jesse were all wrestlers who thrived during a time where wrestling were popular, and wrestling helped them transit into other careers. What else is there to be said about that? It's pretty clear that it's the truth mate.

See Wrestlemania XX for what happens when two guys who don't want to be in the company any more meet in in the ring.

Not about the company, not about Brock or Goldberg. But I'll play. Brock went on to become successful as hell in the UFC, one hell of a draw, professional wrestling has helped him achieve that.

Goldberg, well not much that I heard from him ever since he left professional wrestling. He had a few movie roles here and there, not exactly a bad thing now is it? As well as a decent period of time in Celebrity Apprentice.

See above. Once everybody's doing it it's not special any more and (A) hurts their chances of actually making it (B) Hurts the product and (C) if you've got a lot of actors trying to be wrestlers in your company, somebody's getting hurt, and that's good for nobody.

Actors trying to be wrestlers doesn't mean they're automatically botch machines. Otunga has yet to injure someone, Miz has yet to injure someone that I heard of, and that's only 2 people. It doesn't hurt the product in any way to allow someone to transit into professional wrestling. But that's not really what it's about, now is it mate?

Ferb, it's not David Otunga per se. It's what he represents. The people who see wrestling as nothing more than a way to get publicity. And Those people, like everybody else who's been in the buisness for publicity will be godawful in the ring. And unless you want tro defend Otunga, Arquette and Zeus' ring work you'll agree that's a bad thing.

I'm not defending it, because it's not what it's about.

Professional wrestling, no matter if you like it or not have proved a great stepping stone for all of the mentioned names for this debate, as well as a decent handful of other wrestlers, like Hogan who has definitely become much more exposed outside of wrestling after the success of his appearance in Rocky, as well as his longer tenure with WWE as well as WCW.

John Cena and Dave Batista are two other names you could add to the list of successful transitions into another career outside of professional wrestling, even if they were still more than active in wrestling afterwards.

Look, I really want to debate you Remix, I really do. But it's not gonna help if you've already seen the fact that you're off-topic by addressing how the professional wrestling business gets hurt, but not how the professional wrestlers listed in the OP got hurt from professional wrestling when they went on to other things. It's still off-topic mate.

 

[Remix]

True that, however that is not who it's about this debate young Remix. It's about the people mentioned in the OP. Here, let me refresh it for you.

My dear Ferbian, just because they are the only ones who made a success of themselves, which their pro wrestlign career was no doubt an asset does not forbid me from speaking about those whom pro wrestling did not help.

Not everybody have transitioned perfectly into another career and can thank wrestling because of it. Because not everybody has successfully transitioned into a career where the things they did in wrestling benefits them at all.

You mention Virgil, who's a teacher. His career as Ted DiBiase's lackey did jack shit for his ability to be a teacher.

You think kids won't laugh at him, or otherwise make his job harder for playing DiBiase's lacky? Might not be much but teachers' jobs are hard enough, and giving kids fuel to tease them about would ber very annoying for them.

Hurt wrestling, but not the wrestlers that transit. They are provided a stepping stone to prove their abilities to make it elsewhere it deemed necessary or deemed as a wishful career move.

By hurting wrestling, they hurt themselves. For example if one of my uni professor's research was revealed to be bollocks and faked, don't you think it'd have an effect on my credability as a scientist?

The decline isn't nearly as critical as you make it out to be Remix. Yes WWE has declined, but professional wrestling still proves as quite a way of getting noticed for a fair deal of wrestlers who are actually worth a damn.

At this point Ferbian, I am dealing in hypotheticals. To make this clearer:

if more people are going from Wrestling => movies the novelty wears off and movie studios will be less inclined to hire them over other big guys from a normal stage school in their action flics, leaving us with guys who want to leave the buisness but can't at the top of the card.

so, if a lot of wrestlers come into the buisness hoping to follow Rocky's path (i.e. get well known via wrestling then gtfo to act) and studios start treating WWE as the glorified stage school The Rock is then the novelty of hiring wrestlers for their action flicks will pass and we'll have a bunch of people who want out but can't get out.

The Rock, Austin, Jericho, Trish and Jesse were all wrestlers who thrived during a time where wrestling were popular, and wrestling helped them transit into other careers. What else is there to be said about that? It's pretty clear that it's the truth mate.

Yes, WWE helped them, I'm not denying that. However, I am not arguing that mate. I am arguing that WWE has harmed far more transitions than it has helped.

Not about the company, not about Brock or Goldberg. But I'll play. Brock went on to become successful as hell in the UFC, one hell of a draw, professional wrestling has helped him achieve that.

He left to go play football. He got cut before the season started. What did he do after that? Go to NJPW. WWE really helped with that one.

Goldberg, well not much that I heard from him ever since he left professional wrestling. He had a few movie roles here and there, not exactly a bad thing now is it? As well as a decent period of time in Celebrity Apprentice.

Oh wow. Celebrity Apprentice, that can't be a reality TV show where Z-List celebrities go to try and get interest in in their non existant careers after it's long since died.

Actors trying to be wrestlers doesn't mean they're automatically botch machines. Otunga has yet to injure someone, Miz has yet to injure someone that I heard of, and that's only 2 people.

Miz was a reality TV star who decided to become a wrestler. He got 'known' before working towards going to WWE. Because that is what he wants to be. A wrestler, not an actor.

David Otunga botches tags and can't run the ropes. Don't attempt to defend him. You will look foolish.

It doesn't hurt the product in any way to allow someone to transit into professional wrestling. But that's not really what it's about, now is it mate?

Transition into, no. use WWE as a glorified piece of reality TV like celebrity apprentice and then fuck off will harm the product.

I'm not defending it, because it's not what it's about.

Professional wrestling, no matter if you like it or not have proved a great stepping stone for all of the mentioned names for this debate, as well as a decent handful of other wrestlers, like Hogan who has definitely become much more exposed outside of wrestling after the success of his appearance in Rocky, as well as his longer tenure with WWE as well as WCW.

Hulk Hogan hasn't been a success outside of wrestling. He cameoed in Rocky III and most (if not all) of the movies he starred in flopped. If he'd been a success outside of WWE he wouldn't be in TNA. and he's probably the single most famous pro wrestler in history. If WWE can't help him be a success outside of wrestling who can they help?

I'd argue that The Rock could have never been a wrestler and still have been a Holywood success. Same thing with Austin (once he got his foot in the door) And Jericho's association with Fozzy has been entirely independent from WWE, with it having existed (with Jericho as lead singer) for a long period of time before WWE promoted its songs by having one of them be Chris' theme. Hell as a part of Fozzy Jericho was calling himself "Mongoose McQueen" and in general pretending not to be the same guy people were watching on WWE TV

John Cena and Dave Batista are two other names you could add to the list of successful transitions into another career outside of professional wrestling, even if they were still more than active in wrestling afterwards.

Because Cena was in a couple of movies produced by WWE which flopped? And forgive me for asking what significant things Batista has done outside of WWE.

 

[Ferbian]

My dear Ferbian, just because they are the only ones who made a success of themselves, which their pro wrestlign career was no doubt an asset does not forbid me from speaking about those whom pro wrestling did not help.

Of course not. There's no silencing in this thread, however it's obviously not what it's about. The thread discusses Austin, The Rock, Ventura, Stratus and Jericho's transitions and how professional wrestling hurt, or did not hurt it. And it's very obvious that none of their transitions were ever hurt by professional wrestling.

You think kids won't laugh at him, or otherwise make his job harder for playing DiBiase's lacky? Might not be much but teachers' jobs are hard enough, and giving kids fuel to tease them about would ber very annoying for them.

Arguable. Especially considering if Ted DiBiase Jr's stories are indeed true, then the kids back when he was a child loved the shit out of Virgil. I'm sure there's still some awe in Virgil even if he merely appeared as a lackey back then, as well as a few months ago.

By hurting wrestling, they hurt themselves. For example if one of my uni professor's research was revealed to be bollocks and faked, don't you think it'd have an effect on my credability as a scientist?

I don't see how scientific proof being shown as bollocks and faked has anything to do with professional wrestling. the majority of people know that professional wrestling is fake, and fights in movies are fake as well. Wouldn't that simply help a guy like The Rock as well as Austin to transit into it? They get to perform their own stunts to the extend that their bodies allowed them to.

Besides, if you're credibility is proved to be legit, your past means jack shit.

Yes, WWE helped them, I'm not denying that. However, I am not arguing that mate. I am arguing that WWE has harmed far more transitions than it has helped.

Which in taking the thread topic to a completely wider perspective than what it's about. At least if you ask me.

Nonetheless, I'll play. Professional wrestling couldn't possibly bring someone to the point where their careers are getting permanently hurt. With the only exception of permanent injuries or death. But that automatically just means transitioning into another career is never happening. Those who have transited into another career have obviously benefited from professional wrestling. You said it yourself, it's a staging school for bigger things.

Some might not get the greatest of careers after their professional wrestling career is over, but do you honestly know that it's not just their own choice of career? Do you honestly know Virgil didn't just choose to become a teacher, instead of settling with it?

He left to go play football. He got cut before the season started. What did he do after that? Go to NJPW. WWE really helped with that one.

NJPW was obviously his own choice, and he had success over there as well. Brock Lesnar is a successful MMA fighter, how do you honestly say his wrestling background did not help that? How do you say that the dominance presented in WWE did not help Brock Lesnar get over with the MMA fans? Fake or not, you've got to be taking notice to brutality like that.

Oh wow. Celebrity Apprentice, that can't be a reality TV show where Z-List celebrities go to try and get interest in in their non existant careers after it's long since died.

Yet they're pulling bigger ratings than WWE was during the time that Goldberg competed there, as well as during now. How is that not an upgrade? Goldberg have gone on to do other things and was successful at it. I'll reuse the argument made for Virgil earlier - How do you honestly know it wasn't his own choice of career?

Miz was a reality TV star who decided to become a wrestler. He got 'known' before working towards going to WWE. Because that is what he wants to be. A wrestler, not an actor.

Yet you still mentioned how an actor, or a television star transitioning into professional wrestling is a bad thing.

David Otunga botches tags and can't run the ropes. Don't attempt to defend him. You will look foolish.

I'm not defending Otunga, however he still has yet to injure someone. People cry over him being awful with his finisher, but you know as well as I that he performs it like it's supposed to be.

Otunga is green, we get that. But wouldn't anybody be green if they have been wrestling for under 2 years? He signed a developmental contract with WWE in November 2008, and made his in-ring debut May 29, 2009. I'd say that leaves someone more than warranted to be a little green.

Transition into, no. use WWE as a glorified piece of reality TV like celebrity apprentice and then fuck off will harm the product.

Arguable. Considering that some have made fine transitions out of professional wrestling, and the business still thrives.

Hulk Hogan hasn't been a success outside of wrestling. He cameoed in Rocky III and most (if not all) of the movies he starred in flopped. If he'd been a success outside of WWE he wouldn't be in TNA. and he's probably the single most famous pro wrestler in history. If WWE can't help him be a success outside of wrestling who can they help?

Hogan knows best, American Gladiator? Two fairly successful shows, who have run for more than just one season, wouldn't say that's specifically a failure. However I agree that Hogan isn't too big of a name outside of professional wrestling, however he still represents outside of it. And he does it quite often as well.

I'd argue that The Rock could have never been a wrestler and still have been a Holywood success. Same thing with Austin (once he got his foot in the door) And Jericho's association with Fozzy has been entirely independent from WWE, with it having existed (with Jericho as lead singer) for a long period of time before WWE promoted its songs by having one of them be Chris' theme. Hell as a part of Fozzy Jericho was calling himself "Mongoose McQueen" and in general pretending not to be the same guy people were watching on WWE TV

Of course they could've all become established with time, outside of professional wrestling. However to say that professional wrestling didn't help anybody mentioned in the OP is bullshit mate, and you know that. They have all benefited from professional wrestling, they've all gone on to be successful outside of the business in some way or another.

Because Cena was in a couple of movies produced by WWE which flopped? And forgive me for asking what significant things Batista has done outside of WWE.

John Cena have made much more than just a few movies to step aside from professional wrestling. He has appeared on numerous television shows, talk-shows, guest appearances, commercials etc. He's requested, and requested often. How is that not due to his popularity in the WWE?

Batista might not have done anything really significant outside of WWE, however he's not lost out there either. He has made television appearances and all that during his time with WWE. And while he's no John Cena, I'm sure he's requested as well from time to time.

To finish this off, I would like to ask you if you're fine with making your closing argument next? Or if you want to quote my rebuttals a final time, and then I'll post my closing argument as the next reply, and then you follow up? Just so we both get our closing arguments in, as well as we close what could go on and on forever.

I'll take your answer through the way you'll reply. I would solve it over PM, but I'm not sure if the chance of us colliding in terms of being online is available for the next 24 hours where the debate continues.

 

[Ferbian]

So I want to get a closing argument in before this thing closes. I believe it's in about an hour, I could be wrong though. But it is definitely closing today, and Remix is nowhere to be found.

Professional wrestling has provided a platform to transit onto bigger things, if wanted.​

Well it's rather obvious. Wrestling like Remix and I have agreed on, it a staging school. A stepping stone for those who plan on making it bigger. The Rock, Austin, Jericho and more have used their popularity in wrestling, as well as the things learned from wrestling to transit into another career. I've already stated how they did it, and what they learned to transit, so I won't go into details about it.

Professional wrestling couldn't possibly have hurt their current careers outside of the business. Sure you could argue for a movie talent that "But professional wrestling ruined it for him because he can't perform his own stunts". Well professional wrestling allows him to even be put in a position to perform the stunts. A stunt man would've been introduced anyway had he not been a professional athlete.

Professional wrestling allows for the wrestlers to adjust their skills for other things​

Yeah we get it, The Rock, Jericho and all the others could probably do the same things they could before they went into professional wrestling. But professional wrestling have given them a place where they could get used to what other businesses had to offer. All of the mentioned names in the OP has benefited from professional wrestling in terms of getting to stand in front of millions, to suck in the feeling and to get used to what some might be considering insane stage fright, just like Justin Gabriel.

All of the mentioned names thrived in a period where professional wrestling was a big thing.​

Ratings were bigger, and professional wrestling generally was just something people enjoyed to watch. The majority of the guys named in the OP were popular and thrived best during the Attitude Era, where professional wrestling were at it's peak compared to when they were during their careers as noticeable talent. Sure the 80's had bigger ratings, but Austin, The Rock, Jericho none of them were noticeable talents back then, or even in the business.

More people, equals more followers for other things. The Rock is popular in the movie business because of being known by professional wrestling fans, as well as casual fans. Austin the same, Jericho's charisma mixed with his abilities to sing have garnered a fair share of professional wrestling fans to follow him, I'm sure.

I know Brock is not mentioned in the OP, but he is definitely worth mentioning as well, since he has been discussed already. Brock is over as fuck in UFC, and it's cause he was known for what he did in professional wrestling, where he was over as fuck as well.

They all benefited from professional wrestling​

One way or another, there's no denying that they have had their share of benefits from something specific during their professional wrestling career. There's just no denying that, because professional wrestling, is and always have been a popular thing. It's not as popular, but it still thrives. So there's always gonna be a definite exposure through professional wrestling, to do other things.

It's been said before, professional wrestling is an action soap opera, how does that not help professional wrestlers transit into a movie career? television career? Some other sports career (seeing as they're still athletes).

There's not much more to say about this subject really, but I would love to see someone try to convince me, how professional wrestling have damaged their careers.

 

[Phoenix]

Clarity of debate: Ferbian
Ferbian opened and closed nicely while keeping on track. Unsex's opening post was heavily off-topic.

Punctuality: Ferbian
Ferb had some of the quickest replies within 20 mins while Unsex took a while with some of his posts (understandably due to holiday).

Informative: Unsex
Unsex brought out the info, youtube, images, the lot. He had the info to help his cause and went into good detail with them.

Persuasion: Ferbian
While Unsex brought out the big gun information, this didn't help the fact that his debate was heavily affected by his opening post which was off topic and I felt that despite Unsex trying to crawl back with good amount of info, his momentum was heavily affected by that first post. I tried to read beyond that point but it just kept coming back while Ferbian kept a strong ground. It was a great debate no doubt by the two of you, but Unsex really suffered damage from that first post and Ferbian shone through at the opportunity.

Final Score
Ferbian: 4
Unsex: 1

 

[Cena's Little Helper]

Remix is now the undisputed research king of the debate league...seriously, homey, you went all out for that opening post of yours, and it looked great. That being said, Ferbian did present the more coherent opening argument, and he didn't waste anytime in replying to you. I'm splitting the persuasion post between you because Ferbian disrespected your rebutting style, and you played it off like the class act that you are, Remix.

Final Score
Ferbian: 3
Unsex: 2

 

[Miko]

Clarity: No offence to Unmix, but Ferbians opener was more on the topic at hand, he also closed his arguments up. So quite rightly gets the point

Point - Ferbian

Punctuality: I am not sure if either guy overstepped his 24 hour time limit, so for that reason I've got to score this one as a draw

Point- Draw

Informative: AJ Unsex brought the info here

Point - Unsex

Persuasion: Ferbian has to win this one, Unsex actually put forward some very good points all the way through, enough to make you think anyway, sadly most were off topic in one way or another and Ferbian just did what he had to to clinch the point. Not to discourage Remixsex as he came across well in this debate, apart from getting his wires magnificently crossed.

Point - Ferbian

My scores;

Ferbian: 3.5
Unsex: 1.5

 

[CH David]

Clarity: Gotta go with Ferbs on this one. Great open to set the tone and closed it up nicely.

Point: Ferbian

Punctuality: Unsex was late. Ferbs stayed on time.

Point: Ferbian

Informative: Gotta go with Unsex on this. Definitely went all out for this. I applaud his efforts.

Point: Unsex

Persuasion: Going off topic killed Unsex. He tried getting back on track but Ferbs took his opportunity and ran like fuck with it. Very good debate by the both of you, even if the score doesn't match it.

Points: Ferbian

CH David scores this Ferbian 4, Unsex 1.

 

[D-Man]

After a complete judge's tally, Ferbian is the victor with 14.5 points to Unsex's 5.5.

Congratulations and great debating from the both of you!