Ricky 'the HEEL' Steamboat?

[It's...Baylariat!]

Ric Flair said in an interview once that the only thing that kept Ricky Steamboat from being in a category with the likes of Flair, Hogan, Austin, etc was that Steamboat wasn't willing to turn heel. I find this interesting because Steamboat was amazing in the ring and had some of the greatest matches of all time with Flair and Savage. So here's a two part question.

1. Is Steamboat's legacy limited because he never worked as a heel?
2. Does a wrestler have to be both face and heel in their decorated career to be considered one of the greats?

 

[The Fabulous Rougeau's]

The fact that Ricky was never a heel doesn't take away from his wrestling ability. But by only playing one role it shows that he had limitations. Guys who can be both face and heel at a top level are rare and those guys are the ones who are considered the greatest off all time.

 

[TheHorndogSays]

Heels often times have to be good on the mic. Fans by nature want to CHEER for wrestlers which is why it is easier to get a face over versus a heel. Steamboat was NEVER known for his mic skills. He would have needed a manager to get over that aspect similar to how Andre needed Heenan then later Dibiase to get over as a heel.

As to whether this fact hurt Steamboat, I don't think the fact that he wasn't a heel hurt him as much as his subpar mic work. I also think going to WWE when he did hurt him. The same should be said of Dusty Rhodes. They were NEVER going to get over more than Hogan (it could even be debated if they even SHOULD have been put over Hogan as the TOP GUY for Vince's baby. This isn't a knock on either one of them but could you see Dusty Rhodes teaming with Mr. T? I can't.) Flair was smart enough to stay away. Help build his name with a national audience with Turner Broadcasting THEN slowly making the change but he even realized it was likely a mistake and went back to WCW. The problem with Steamboat was he kept jumping ship. That may have worked in the Territorial days but we were now in the days of national companies. Had he simply stayed with WWF and not jumped ship from NWA/WCW not once but TWICE it was very possible he could have been the face of WCW instead of Sting.

 

[Mr. Artistic guy]

I don't think it hurts so much as you not succeeding in the things you're supposed to do. People have this mindset that until they see from someone show a bigger amount of versatility, they are just one-dimensional and that a range is one of the things that defines how great you are. Steamboat could definitely be called a victim of this. Steamboat did everything he was ever supposed to as a face, and that's why he was such a good one. To suppose he couldn't or wouldn't be a heel is just that, until you see evidence to the contrary.

There are those that say he wasn't a great talker, and that might have been true, but I've seen heels get over without that. For me the most important part of being good and successful is achieving the things you set out to achieve. I'm not going to judge him poorly because of what he didn't do, I'll just look at his career and say well he was a good face and that's all that matters. Would Hulk Hogan have been any less great if he hadn't of joined the NWO in '96? I don't think so. It's nice that he did and show another notch to his belt, but his failure to join that group wouldn't have made his original work any less great so no, I don't really think it hurt Steamboat.

Play to your strengths, that's where they got it right with Steamboat.

 

[DethMetal]

I wouldn't say that Steamboat's legacy is hurt or limited by this by any means. However, I think it is good to be versatile. It's always good to play to your strengths and do what you know you can do well, but at the same time, you can't let yourself be trapped in that little bubble; you have to be able to expand. Steamboat not being a great talker could be a reason for him never being a heel, but then again, some people can get over as heels and not have to say a word. I think it's all about how well one can play their character, and Steamboat played his well.

 

[The Butcher]

It doesn't hurt his legacy in my eyes. He did his thing and did it well. I think talk of versatility can be misleading.

Flair was essentially the same character whether face or heel. Hogan would use heel tactics all the time as a face. Austin never played a straight-up babyface, as his Attitude Era face character was one of the most cruel, rude, and foul-mouthed heroes this side of an Alan Moore comic.

So what if Ricky never got booed? He never tried to. I know a lot of people hate comparisons of pro wrestling to real sports, but knocking The Dragon for never playing heel is like knocking Mike Tyson for not being a finesse fighter. A one-trick pony that is excellent at his one trick can still be among the greatest ever at what he does.

 

[GameOver]

It doesn't hurt his legacy in my eyes. He did his thing and did it well. I think talk of versatility can be misleading.

Flair was essentially the same character whether face or heel. Hogan would use heel tactics all the time as a face. Austin never played a straight-up babyface, as his Attitude Era face character was one of the most cruel, rude, and foul-mouthed heroes this side of an Alan Moore comic.

So what if Ricky never got booed? He never tried to. I know a lot of people hate comparisons of pro wrestling to real sports, but knocking The Dragon for never playing heel is like knocking Mike Tyson for not being a finesse fighter. A one-trick pony that is excellent at his one trick can still be among the greatest ever at what he does.

Agreed, he is one of those guys that never needed to turn, same with Tito Santana and Hillbilly Jim just to use 2 other examples they were beloved and it wouldn't seem right seeing them in a hated role.

Ricky was the AJ Styles of his time he was phenomenal. who cares if he couldn't be more versatile and get people to hate him that wasn't his job, his job was to entertain and he more then did that, now if people got bored with him and didn't give him a pop and he still didn't try to reinvent himself then yeah thats a tarnish but Ricky is a legend for a reason

 

[justtxyank]

It doesn't hurt his legacy, but it did hurt his standing on the card. It was hard to keep him in the main events for extended periods of time when he was always playing the sympathetic underdog babyface. Fans grew tired of him.

It's actually a shame he got hurt when he did, because the feud with Austin was really drawing fresh life out of him and the fans were getting behind him again.

 

[d_henderson1810]

Heels often times have to be good on the mic. Fans by nature want to CHEER for wrestlers which is why it is easier to get a face over versus a heel. Steamboat was NEVER known for his mic skills. He would have needed a manager to get over that aspect similar to how Andre needed Heenan then later Dibiase to get over as a heel.

As to whether this fact hurt Steamboat, I don't think the fact that he wasn't a heel hurt him as much as his subpar mic work. I also think going to WWE when he did hurt him. The same should be said of Dusty Rhodes. They were NEVER going to get over more than Hogan (it could even be debated if they even SHOULD have been put over Hogan as the TOP GUY for Vince's baby. This isn't a knock on either one of them but could you see Dusty Rhodes teaming with Mr. T? I can't.) Flair was smart enough to stay away. Help build his name with a national audience with Turner Broadcasting THEN slowly making the change but he even realized it was likely a mistake and went back to WCW. The problem with Steamboat was he kept jumping ship. That may have worked in the Territorial days but we were now in the days of national companies. Had he simply stayed with WWF and not jumped ship from NWA/WCW not once but TWICE it was very possible he could have been the face of WCW instead of Sting.

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I want to call you out on a couple of things.

Firstly, Steamboat's stickwork. Now, he was no Shawn Michaels on the mike, but he was a pretty good speaker. I remember pre-match at WM3, when he was interviewed by "Mean " Gene, he cut a great promo (it's probably a bit old school and dated now, but it was stirring at the time).
But I though he cut a great speech, the night it was announced on "Raw" that he was inducted into the HoF. Chris Jericho came out and berated him, and Steamboat gave it back on the mike. Watch it on Youtube if you missed it. Steamboat may not be the best on the mike, but he is not subpar, either.

Chris Benoit won a World Title, and wrestled as well as Steamboat, and wasn't much on the mike, but he still main-evented Mania and made Triple H tap.

Also, you contradict yourself. You say that he shouldn't have jumped to "Raw", but he shouldn't have then left to go back to WCW either. Make up your mind!

I can tell you why Steamboat may not have been a star like some were. Ricky Steamboat, from all reports, is a very humble, almost shy guy. He always seems to be about making the other guy look good. In an industry where it is every man for himself, Steamboat seems happier for others to have the spotlight. Why do you think few have ever said a bad word about the guy. I think it is because he is selfless in an industry where selfishness gets you to the top of the tree. Maybe he decided a WWF Title was not worth compromising his principles for.

Also, Steamboat had to drop the IC Title because he wanted time off to see his son (Richie Steamboat, who is wrestling in NXT) be born. He put aside his career to be at a very special moment in his and his child's life. I have Steamboat's DVD, and his son speaks glowingly about his father, and how he realises what his father gave up to see him born. I doubt Ric Flair's or Hulk Hogan's kids would be as glowing in praise. Again, Steamboat put someone else before himself. Vince probably had issues with Steamboat for doing this, and buried him later down the track.

Steamboat even does it now. He trains NXT stars, to become superstars, and reach heights he never did. He gives back more to the business than it ever gave him, and it is rare for someone to do that. He did every job asked, he never played politics etc. "Stone Cold" Steve Austin, Ric Flair and Randy "Macho Man" Savage rate Steamboat as their greatest opponent. You're a great if others greats think you are great.

Steamboat may have not made it as high as others, because he wasn't like many others. He did it to put on a great match, make his opponent look good, and didn't chase the spotlight. He quit wrestling , not because of a back injury (he was fully healed), but because he didn't want to redo it, and said that he didn't want his son to have a father who is in a wheelchair. Steamboat was a great wrestler, but an even better human being, and maybe being such a standup guy doesn't get you as far in wrestling. But, you know what, I think Steamboat put integrity above treasure, and for that, he is successful as a family man and human being.

 

[THTRobtaylor]

I think there is a reason he didn't want to be heel and it's VKM... He knew what Vinny would make of him as a heel, he'd be the worst "oriental" stereotype imaginable, managed by Fuji, spitting green mist to win and lose that which he had built over the previous years, especially after Muta went to WCW instead of WWF.

I am sure he felt the WWF title was great and he wanted it, but not if he had to go under a mask as some ninja type. Legacy wise I don't think much hurts Ricky, he is a beloved veteran who is one of the few guys you can point to as "a good man" in the business. What it does do however is paint his son into a corner...

Ritchie absolutely HAS to go heel the moment he debuts on RAW, imagine Ricky accompanying for his debut only for Ritchie to turn on him and say "Thanks pop, but I am not going to be in your shadow anymore..." and going with Heyman as a manager? We all know from the failed Bo Dallas experiment that even now the Rocky Maivia push doesn't work, and on paper Ritchie is the exact guy that is built for...so put him heel with Ric, as part of Wyatt's Family or even with Heyman (imagine that, "You made my life hell in WCW but I got the last laugh Ricky!!!) that is the downside of Ricky's choices... his son cannot do the same.

 

[FlairFan2003]

I do think that the absolute best were guys who had very successful runs as heroes & villains. Portraying such contrasts has a lot to do with your charisma more so than your in ring ability, attire, etc.

A poster pointed out that Ric Flair was mostly the same character wether heel or face. That is true, but there were subtle changes in his demeanor, promos, and ring style that clearly contrasted him as a bad guy against favs like Dusty Rhodes, Randy Savage, Sting, etc even without the accompanying storyline (breaking Dusty's leg, stealing Liz from Savage and having him help beat Randy, kicking Sting out of Horsemen, etc). Kevin Nash is another who typically made only subtle changes but got way over with fans as both a face & heel. Some guys can sell both characters to fans but have to make major changes in character, ring style, & promos to do it. Hulk Hogan & Lex Luger are great examples, Savage also but not quite as dramatic.

Steamboat was very good with a look and presentation that suited him as the hard working, clean cut, family guy, a younger, more athletic version of Dusty, a more realistic, less super hero version of Hogan. He didnt have great charisma overall, we remember lots of great Rhodes, Hogan, & Flair promos but not nearly as much of Steamboat's. For whatever reason he never was booked as a bad guy. He did get way over as a hero and no one can doubt his in ring ability.

I do see the one sided nature of his career as a small knock. It's like the debate between Montana vs Marino or P. Manning vs Brady. Manning & Marino always come up a tad short in those discussions because of their lackluster playoff careers, not just losing but being inneffective or downright bad in too many playoff games. Still, you cant argue their individual greatness even if Montana & Brady, even Unitas & Elway always seem a half step ahead.

 

[TheHorndogSays]

I want to call you out on a couple of things.

Firstly, Steamboat's stickwork. Now, he was no Shawn Michaels on the mike, but he was a pretty good speaker. I remember pre-match at WM3, when he was interviewed by "Mean " Gene, he cut a great promo (it's probably a bit old school and dated now, but it was stirring at the time).
But I though he cut a great speech, the night it was announced on "Raw" that he was inducted into the HoF. Chris Jericho came out and berated him, and Steamboat gave it back on the mike. Watch it on Youtube if you missed it. Steamboat may not be the best on the mike, but he is not subpar, either.

Maybe "subpar" on my account was a harsh word but Steamboat was in no way on the level of Hogan, Austin, Flair, Rock which is what the original post was asking about. He may be "decent" on the mic but no where near one of the greats

Chris Benoit won a World Title, and wrestled as well as Steamboat, and wasn't much on the mike, but he still main-evented Mania and made Triple H tap.

Yet would you classify Benoit as being on the same level as Hogan, Flair, Austin or even HHH for that matter? Main eventing Mania is impressive but it's not the end all for being iconic. Ric Flair, who most believe to be the greatest of all time NEVER main evented Mania. Yes he did have a WWE title match at Mania but it was not the MAIN event. We can debate all week long over whether or not he SHOULD have main evented WM8 with Savage but the fact is he didn't main event it.

Also, you contradict yourself. You say that he shouldn't have jumped to "Raw", but he shouldn't have then left to go back to WCW either. Make up your mind!

Yea goof on my part, that final line was supposed to say he shouldn't have left WCW twice. I was trying to find a way to word what I wanted to say and that was a big mistake of me not proof reading before posting.

I can tell you why Steamboat may not have been a star like some were. Ricky Steamboat, from all reports, is a very humble, almost shy guy. He always seems to be about making the other guy look good. In an industry where it is every man for himself, Steamboat seems happier for others to have the spotlight. Why do you think few have ever said a bad word about the guy. I think it is because he is selfless in an industry where selfishness gets you to the top of the tree. Maybe he decided a WWF Title was not worth compromising his principles for.

Also, Steamboat had to drop the IC Title because he wanted time off to see his son (Richie Steamboat, who is wrestling in NXT) be born. He put aside his career to be at a very special moment in his and his child's life. I have Steamboat's DVD, and his son speaks glowingly about his father, and how he realises what his father gave up to see him born. I doubt Ric Flair's or Hulk Hogan's kids would be as glowing in praise. Again, Steamboat put someone else before himself. Vince probably had issues with Steamboat for doing this, and buried him later down the track.

Steamboat even does it now. He trains NXT stars, to become superstars, and reach heights he never did. He gives back more to the business than it ever gave him, and it is rare for someone to do that. He did every job asked, he never played politics etc. "Stone Cold" Steve Austin, Ric Flair and Randy "Macho Man" Savage rate Steamboat as their greatest opponent. You're a great if others greats think you are great.

Steamboat may have not made it as high as others, because he wasn't like many others. He did it to put on a great match, make his opponent look good, and didn't chase the spotlight. He quit wrestling , not because of a back injury (he was fully healed), but because he didn't want to redo it, and said that he didn't want his son to have a father who is in a wheelchair. Steamboat was a great wrestler, but an even better human being, and maybe being such a standup guy doesn't get you as far in wrestling. But, you know what, I think Steamboat put integrity above treasure, and for that, he is successful as a family man and human being.

Very valid point. He could have not been an iconic status simply because he did not WANT to be that status due to the sacrifices. I will never put a man down for choosing family over career. Similar to Kane these days. Everyone wants to ask why Kane hasn't held the title more than he has, the answer is simply that he doesn't WANT to hold the title and it content putting over other guys.

 

[lil bitch Kid]

Ricky was a face his entire career because that's what the character required. His hokey promos as a heel would have got him laughed at, not hated. It was a time when the cartoon character aspect of Ricky got him over. The ring work, being a high flyer, also was conducive to being a face. Also, he was a horrible promo. Do you think that the match at Mania gets built half as well if Steamboat talks? Nope. They could have had Savage crush his leg, which would have fed into hurting his biggest ability and it would have even made more sense, but alas, they had his throat get crushed so he couldn't talk, and the match got built as revenge without having Ricky cut promos. It worked. In the NWA, his biggest feud was with Flair and if you think people would ever accept Ricky as the heel in the feud, you're insane. Yes, his lack of versatility likely cost him a spot at the top in the F, but he got to the top in the NWA based on wrestling.

 

[jachba]

According to Ole Anderson Ricky wanted to turn heel but Ole apparently told him that no one would ever buy him as one.

 

[Judah's Lion]

perhaps the answer to this question is two-fold:

1. Ricky "the Dragon" Steamboat will always be considered great, but never one of the all time greatest ever because of the appearance of being one-dimensional. he never switched from face to heel and therefore is out of the league of Hogan, Flair, Austin, Hart, HBK, Rock, Savage, etc.

or...

2. Ricky "the Dragon" Steamboat is in a league almost all his own. very few men have gone their entire careers without making the switch from face to heel or vice versa. consider how many of those actually made any kind of significant impact to the sport and that small list of names gets even smaller.

one-dimensional or not, nobody can deny his accomplishments. beating Savage at Mania 3 for the IC Title, beating Flair at Chi-Town Rumble for the NWA Title, etc. his feuds involve some of the biggest and best names in the history of the sport and are also some of the most enjoyable to relive: Flair, Jake "the Snake" Roberts, Savage, Rude, Austin and Jericho, etc.

according to Flair's book, the reason Steamboat did not become greater than he is -- family. according to Steamboat, himself, in his WWE DVD, the reason he did not become greater than he is -- family. he wasn't willing to make the necessary sacrifices to be the greatest.

case in point: look at who we consider to be the greatest of all time. Hogan; family life in shambles. Flair; family life in shambles. Hart; family life in shambles. Austin; family life in shambles. Savage; family life in shambles. Rock; family life in shambles. HBK; family life was in shambles, now recovered.

that above paragraph is in no way a slam or criticism to the men listed. yes, on one hand i feel sad for them because they lost their families in one way or another. yet on the other hand, i highly admire these guys for their passion and willingness to risk everything to be the best. without knowing all the details of the personal lives of these guys, Steamboat included, it just looks like to me that he wasn't willing to risk it all.

great thread, Lariat.

 

[THTRobtaylor]

It's a bit strong to say Rock's family life is shambles... he divorced but isn't his wife still his manager? Sometimes people do divorce... A cynic would say she gets half anyway but they are hardly Hogan and Linda... Ricky split from his wife in the end, so some would say it didn't pay off...but how do you gauge what's important... if you're Randy and have your wife on the road, in a cupboard etc then you don't have those worries... Ricky clearly did and all he did was ask for what today would be called Paternity Leave...a legal right. Wrestlers and Marriage have never worked well, Ricky clearly wanted to be the exception.

I think it's harsh to say he "wasn't willing to make the sacrifice" but more that he was the first guy to want to do it different and to actually try to do it in McMahonland. Back then it was all about sacrifice, and it probably irked people to see Ricky dare to ask for the time off... I don't for one minute believe he won the belt then asked... Vince knew this was coming from him but went ahead anyway, and Ricky could easily have been the heel to Hogan instead of Piper... but he didn't want to go there knowing it would lead to negative portrayals... the only other guy to have the same moral mindset was Frank Goodish/Bruiser Brody who would screw a promoter if it meant more money for his family... of course the big 2 of the time didn't really touch him, hence why he ended up in Peurto Rico (RIP).

Today time off is 2nd nature, guys have a problem at home, take a month or 2 off, burn out, 3 months off, getting older like Kane/Show/Henry, no problem we'll rotate so you each get 3-4 months off out of 14... Taker...sure one match a year is fine...none of that would have happened if Ricky didn't have the balls to ask and stick to his guns and give up the title, he did make the sacrifice but he chose what today is considered "right" and "the norm"...back then it clearly wasn't and his career suffered, but only in the WWF... he walked right into the NWA World title... Ricky probably did more for "workers rights" in wrestling with that hiatus than Jesse did for all his union talk...

 

[Pedigree1]

I dont believe Ricky never going heel didnt necessarily hurt him at all. Ricky was a decent talker on the mic not the best but very good. He had amazing technical ability and was in amazing shape. Ricky had the ability to do some great great story telling inside the ring.

His matches against Flair,and savage truly stuff of legends. I dont think a superstar has to play both roles to be great. Ricky was a face his entire career and did very well for himself. Remember when Ricky dropped the IC title it was because he wanted to see his son be born. A chickenshit move on VKM's part but i digress.

Ricky was a complete and great sportsman. He has the utmost and complete respect for the business. He gives way way more to the biz than it ever gave him. He sacrificed his career to see his son be born. Would Hogan,SCSA,hell even the undertaker do that i dont think so. Ricky did absolutely fine with the role he was given hes a HOF a mans man and a true icon who kids should look up to

 

[Poop Master Flex]

No + No = No ^ 2

Steamboat didn't need to be heel and you certainly don't need to be heel to be one of the greatest. In all honesty even if the nWo never happened and Hollywood Hogan never existed he would have still been one of the (if not the) greatest of all time, he certainly did enough as a face to warrant being one of the all time greats, simple as that.

Secondly Steamboat as a heel? I can't really see that working out all that great outside of the initial "shock" factor. For Steamboat to be an effective heel he would have had to do a complete 180, completely different character, mic style and ring style. In the 80's - early 90's Steamboat would have had to stop moving around the ring being all silky smooth and flying through the air, he would have had to be more grounded, more cheap and more chickenshit. Steamboat as a heel would probably have been as good as when Mysterio was heel in that short span at the end of WCW, it just wouldn't work.

Some wrestlers are meant to be faces, some heels and you don't need to do both to be one of the greats, it just so happens a lot of those guys have runs at both. Now look at Austin for example, after he became the #1 guy in wrestling his heel run stunk, you just didn't want to boo him and even when he did something despicable you didn't want to hate him. After Austin became the Anti Hero you just didn't want to hate him after that yet Austin is still one of the greatest of all time.

In short you don't need to be both, if you can do 1 REALLY well then that's more than enough.

 

[pyrusane]

Ricky Steamboat is the reason I am a wrestling fan today. When I was a little kid if wrestling came on TV I would just change the channel (if I had that option) or leave the room, because it bored me. I didn't understand it, and I didn't care about it. That all changed when I got stuck watching one day and saw Steamboat come out of the crowd and attack Randy Savage to save George "The Animal" Steele. I was blown away by the heroics of it (like I said, I was a kid) and it made me an instant fan of Steamboat. The first couple of years I watched solely for Steamboat, and as time went on I became a fan of the business as a whole, rather than just the individual. Steamboat has always remained my favorite wrestler of all time, though, so it is hard for me NOT to think of him as one of the all-time greats, subjectively speaking.

Looking at it objectively, I think there are two reasons why Steamboat never reached the same level as the bigger names (Hogan, Flair, Austin, etc). First, the fact that he only held the World Title once, in WCW, and was never the face of the company for either organization. This prevented him from getting the exposure that the top guys got, i.e. Hogan, Austin, Flair.

I think the bigger reason, though, is the fact that Steamboat is so naturally humble outside the ring that he would have been unlikely to play the politics game to get to that higher level. I was lucky enough to meet the man a couple of years ago, at the local Natural History Museum of all places, and he was nice enough to take a few minutes away from his wife and grandson to spend a few minutes talking wrestling with an awed fan. In that short conversation I saw how proud he was of the work he accomplished, the legacy he created, and how humble he was at the same time, and I honestly feel that the man was a career-long face because that is truly all he knew how to be.

 

[d_henderson1810]

Maybe "subpar" on my account was a harsh word but Steamboat was in no way on the level of Hogan, Austin, Flair, Rock which is what the original post was asking about. He may be "decent" on the mic but no where near one of the greats



Yet would you classify Benoit as being on the same level as Hogan, Flair, Austin or even HHH for that matter? Main eventing Mania is impressive but it's not the end all for being iconic. Ric Flair, who most believe to be the greatest of all time NEVER main evented Mania. Yes he did have a WWE title match at Mania but it was not the MAIN event. We can debate all week long over whether or not he SHOULD have main evented WM8 with Savage but the fact is he didn't main event it.



Yea goof on my part, that final line was supposed to say he shouldn't have left WCW twice. I was trying to find a way to word what I wanted to say and that was a big mistake of me not proof reading before posting.



Very valid point. He could have not been an iconic status simply because he did not WANT to be that status due to the sacrifices. I will never put a man down for choosing family over career. Similar to Kane these days. Everyone wants to ask why Kane hasn't held the title more than he has, the answer is simply that he doesn't WANT to hold the title and it content putting over other guys.

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Did you watch the Youtube videos of Steamboat's interview at WM3, or his verbal joust with Chris Jericho on "Raw"?

 

[RRPounder]

I've read where Ricky Steamboat WANTED to work as a heel, but the promoters wouldn't let him because nobody would believe him as one.