Raven: Is He The Biggest Under-Rated Wrestler Ever ?

[andymcg]

So as the news come in and his impact re-debut, Raven is back in TNA, Which to say is to great excitement to me as i am a HUGE Raven fan.

Now my question to everyone out there, is Raven possibly the biggest under-rated wrestler out there ?

Its fair to say his ECW run was great, 2 time ECW World Champ and 4 time ECW Tag Champ and one of Paul Heymans most favourite talent. Possibly the greatest heel in the original ECW, getting so much heat with his Crucifix angle he even had to apologise to the crowd.
Next was his WCW run in which he was a 1 time Light-Heavyweight Champ, 1 time US Champ and 1 time Tag Champ, so a not bad set of belts there to.
WWE he managed to become the record holder of Hardcore Title reigns with a whopping 27 times holding the belt.
And finally TNA were he is the 2005 King Of The Mountain and a 1 time NWA World Champ.

Now it all sounds decent enough, 2 major titles in ECW and TNA and Tag titles and under card titles in WWE and WCW, however if u notice he’s only made it big in the smaller promotions. TNA and the original ECW are nothing to what WWE is now, and what WCW was, and he couldn’t scoop a world title in the "Big 2".
But IMO Raven really should have held a major world title in one of the big 2 promotions, this guy is absolute golden on the mic, perhaps you can even go as far as saying better than the greats such as The Rock and Mick Foley when it comes to cutting a promo. His in ring talent is decent, he can carry a match and is good at telling a story in the ring. Obviously when it comes to Hardcore type matches, no one can match Raven.

So with decent in ring skills, king of hardcore matches, perhaps the best to touch a microphone and cut a promo but with only under-card titles in the big 2 of WWE and WCW and having no involvement in angles that stick out, would u say Raven is perhaps one of the most under-rated wrestlers ?
I certainly would, now discuss ......

 

[Blade]

I think it is fair to say that he is underrated.
He had a great run in ECW where he was "made". They were the first promotion to actually use his talent.
He had his short lived WCW run, where he had the surfer dude gimmick and was competing in the cruiserweight division. I don't think Raven should ever have been part of a cruiserweight/light heavyweight division, he just doesn't fit in there. Especially with his wrestling style which is very grounded and brawler-like.
And then he went to WWF... And I think this was the time when he most underused. WWF at the time saw him for only his great mic skills and not his wrestling skills, so he was brought into the manager role. And while he was a decent manager, bringing a few tag title reigns to The Quebecers I believe it was. And then he went to commentating, which was even worse for him then managing.

He had his ECW run, and while it was very succesful, it made WWF and WCW stereotype him as a guy who must love wrestling hardcore matches cause he was the ECW heavyweight champion. So WCW gave him the Raven's Flock and the "Raven's rules" matches, which were just hardcore matches. And WWF/E gave him a run in the hardcore division, again probably cause he'd been ECW champion.

While it could be argued that he was used correctly in TNA, I think that's not entirely correct. Yeah, he won the TNA title. But that was at a time when TNA would let anyone with just a little bit of name value hold or challenge for the title. At that time there were guys like Sean Waltman and Monty Brown were challenging for the title, so it's hard to give the NWA/TNA much credibility during that time. And then after the "stars" started coming into TNA, the Christian Cages and the Kurt Angles, he was moved down to the midcard and created Serotonin.
He's always gotten less than he deserved with his talent. While he probably should've never been a major world champion, he still deserved more than all the hardcore runs.

So he's now back in TNA. And since TNA have been making such a huge deal over bringing back 'fomer world champions' for the last while, I think we'll see get him get a push for the TNA title. But he'll probably end up back in the midcard again since he's getting pretty old now and since he wouldn't fit in with the MEM.

 

[RendarSelin]

Unfortunately I only observed Raven's WWE Hardcore title days. However, Raven entered the WWE at a time when there were no shortage of main-event Superstars: The Rock, HHH, Stone Cold, Kurt Angle, Undertaker, Kane, Chris Jericho. However, I did look forward to his columns when he wrote on WZ weekly. He seemed to have a great insight of the business.

I do remember Raven in the Invasion angle. On an episode of RAW, Raven challenged Kurt Angle to a match with ECW Rules (which Kurt replied "No, WWF rules!") Raven had one hell of a match with Kurt at a time when Angle was the top babyface of the year. (I believe Kurt won PWI's Most Hated Wrestler AND Most Loved Wrestler in the same year that year...). Raven had the in-ring ability, but was just never given the mic/camera time to connect to the WWE audience. Raven could just have bad luck...he was fighting for time against a lot of big names.

 

[LokiCobain]

There's a slight omission in the story. Raven had health problems which effected his appearance and overall abilities. That factored in with Christian and Angle coming in definitely pushed him down to the manager role, where I can't remember him ever wrestling a match while doing the Serotonin deal. Perhaps if he didn't get sick, he'd still be a major player there.

I think they need to develop this Nation of Violence storyline, and with the addition of guys like Richards, and now Raven, and even Shane Douglas (although he seems to be more the MEM type), they may give Joe a stable. Tazz has a no compete clause til July, but bringing him in wouldn't hurt either. Especially after Impact where Joe's mission is to go throuhg the MEM, and then kill, literally kill, Kurt Angle. Eventually Abyss can enter and you have some more awesome.

But in regards to Raven's past, the Raven's Flock was my favorite stable in WCW, and I'm always glad to see him back for nostalgic reasons. But I wouldn't say he was the most under-rated wrestler ever, mainly because he did hold titles, even if they were minor ones in the "big 2"

 

[shafe_41]

While I do believe Raven is very underrated, I don't think he's the most underrated ever. ECW groomed Raven into an amazing competitor and he reached the top of the company when he became ECW champ. Same with TNA... however his run as champion in TNA kinda confused me because I'm not saying he didn't deserve to be champion, it's just I could have picked like 5 people at the time to be a better champion than Raven. As Blade said, if there was a chair in the 2nd row that was used in many prominant matches in WWE and busted open Stone Cold more times than any other chair, that chair could have been TNA champion at the same time Raven was. Bad analogy but you get it. Raven was always great and I think he still is, but I personally haven't seen more than 3 memorable matches of his that weren't hardcore matches or some form of that. I could look good beating people with stop signs, chairs, and kendo sticks. Then of course as the above poster said, this lead to him being totally stereotyped in WWE as being involved in the Hardcore Title picture. Which honestly wasn't a bad thing for Raven though... here's why.

Very simple really. Would you rather see Raven prominantly used in the hardcore division, or totally lost in the shuffle among all the mid-card talent like X-Pac, Road Dogg, Billy Gunn, and pretty much anyone that held the European or IC titles during that point. So while he was stereotyped and put pretty much exclusivly in the Hardcore division, I don't think he would have be used at all otherwise. So would you rather have that Raven or no Raven at all? Raven really came in at a perfect time...for Raven. He would have never been able to surpass all the talent the WWE had at the top at the time. I don't think I need to mention all those names but would you really have wanted to Raven/Stone Cold or Raven/Rock? Not so much.

Could you say that Raven dug his own grave unintentionally by being so damn good (if not the best) in his many Hardcorer matches and ECW run? Possibly. But he shouldn't be punished for it by ONLY being used in the Hardcore scene. I personally don't see him ever being in the TNA title picture with his return. I think he might have a run as a tag champion once or twice because you can't keep passing the titles between Beer Money and Team 3D. All these "former world champions" TNA keeps bringing in could all be considered "The most underrated ever." Cases could be made for Stevie Richards who was used pretty decently throughout his career, but was still not enough for him because he was truly damn talented. Shane Douglas... well the name says it all. I don't know if he was involved in any backstage politics with ECW, but you could also argue he was one of the best heel champions of all time. He also could have been so much more. Again... same with Raven. Given that one good push of a storyline, any of those guys could have been bigger in the WWE(F). Maaaaaaaaybe not Stevie, but you catch my drift. Raven certainly is underrated but the most underrated ever... I don't think so. However, he would definatly be in my top 5.

 

[Monroe]

I agree with the comment of Raven being one of the most underused and overlooked talents of all time. One reason that stands out in my mind is that before the performer known as Scott Levy was Raven, he was Scotty the Body in WCW. He won their LHW/Cruiser championship in a match where the other wrestlers lined up to watch, then congratulated both Scotty the Body and Brian Pillman after they got to the back.

Think about that. That doesn't happen as much as people would like to say it does. And for him to put on a match of that quality and stand with a man like Brian Pillman to an ovation from his peers says a good bit.

I personally would be lying if I said I was a fan of his at the time but admit that I, like so many others, got caught up in the Raven gimmick from the original ECW. It wasn't until I went back and started to watch more of his work that I realized how truly gifted and intelligent he was in the ring. I disagree with the statements that he might have pigeonholed himself into that position in the hardcore division. If someone can make hardcore matches have the type of psychology that Raven was able to, I believe others knew he could do it outside of the hardcore division as well.

Raven was simply a missed opportunity by the entire wrestling business. His thyroid condition only hurt him in TNA, when it was obvious that despite the many names in the company at that time, people still cared about Raven. (I.E. his first appearance he attacked Double J. and stole the belt, as he's walking away Russo is screaming "It's f*cking Raven, it's f*cking Raven" for hype but behind him is a sign that said simply "Vince fears Raven" his fans did and still do "Get it" when it comes to him.)

The fans cared where Raven was and more important than that, they cared that Raven appeared and was in the HW title picture. Vince doesn't fear Raven, he simply has no idea how to use him properly. His ideas for his character were always a level above that of the WWE's ability. There was a depth and a mystique that you could not obtain without Raven. It is simply the way he carries himself. As long as I've been a fan I've only ever seen Raven compared to one other person as far as psychology is concerned and that man is Jake Roberts. Say what you will about the man's personal demons, but everyone in the business respects him, and for Raven to draw comparisons to him shows just how much Raven truly knew and understood the business he loves.

It all comes down to the inability to use him properly. Only Paul E. had the guts to do so and that too, if you think about it, is a shame.

 

[RVDgurl]

I'm not sure that the word "underrated" is the word I would choose to describe Raven. Personally, I think he is one of the greatest heels of all time. Period. I think the term under untilized may better describe Raven's career.

During his tenure in ECW, Raven thrived. Paul Heyman got every drop of value that he possibly could from Scott Levy. The Raven character was so complex and so deep that only ECW could market it properly. Mostly because there were no boundaries and the talent had the freedom to do basically whatever they wanted.

I think those who have posted previously have brought up some very good points. Raven's health problems in the latter phase of his career did effect his look and his performance. Raven's abuse of hard drugs also hindered his career a bit. In fact, I'm still shocked that the WWE did take him on after ECW went under.

All health issues aside, the point is that RAven was a fantastic performer. The WWE missed the boat on Raven, as they pushed him almost exclusively as a hardcore wrestler. That is not what Raven was about. The Raven character had so much more to offer than barbwire and steel chairs.

 

[golden miz]

raven is not the most "underated guy ever" that honor has to go to owen hart since he was never given a major championship when he deserved one. But raven deffently is on the top of my list of most underated. Back in the wcw days with "Raven's Flock" a huge group that was concidered a competing group with nwo and wcw. But he's won championships the us heavyweight in wcw and the ecw heavyweight in ecw so I really dont think he was that over rated. But I'm happy to see him back he brings something intresting and grungy to wrestling

 

[baken1942]

He is definatly under rated
ECW Raven = The Best
WCW Raven = Not bad, but not ECW Raven
WWE Raven = BRUTAL, they did not know how to use him
TNA Raven = Not too bad either, Hopefully he is used right this time around

 

[flaboy]

i think raven is great but i dont think he is under rated. i think he and always will be just a mid card champ, tag titles yes and most def hardcore since that is the most exciting time to watch him, but as far as heavy weight titles maybe here and there but nothing major. he is and always will be a hardcore extrmest like the sandman and nothing else. after sandman was moved to raw his career went down even tho vince did like him. and i think that getting rid of the hardcore title in wwe sucks but thats life. i also think raven had some drug issues in the other companies which could of led to his down fall. but personnaly i didnt like the way tna brought him back. the story was fine with him reuniting with stevie and beating abyss but its the way it was carried out. i mean just having walk through the crowd over the rail and hit abyss. there was no hype no music and it seemed the announcers didnt even catch on to it and when they did it pretty much non shilant.

 

[BillAlfonso]

Just think of the fueds he could've had:

Raven vs. The Rock: The Rock a hotshot, third generation superstar basically royalty and Raven, a no good, rotten derelict.

Raven vs. Stone Cold Steve Austin: Austin, of course is a hell raiser but there were limits to how far he'd go, Raven had no limits.

Raven vs. HHH: HHH is married to the family, what else reason do you need for Raven to target him.

Raven vs. Foley: Dream fued you could use either Mankind, which would be tortured soul vs tortured soul or use Cactus Jack which would be sado-masochist vs sado-masochist.

Raven vs. The Undertaker(not Bad Ass Undertaker, even though I wouldn't mind it): Add him in with Mankind and it could be a battle to see which of the three had the darker soul.

Raven vs. "Loose Cannon" Brian Pillman: One of my "If only" fueds. I know that it would've never happened but it's just another dream fued of mine. Two of my all time faves, it would be a psycho whose smarter than everyone vs a psycho whose smarter than everyone, just smarter in different ways. They could see just who was crazier.

The man was so versatile, that it's a shame that he never go over in the big two, even though he said that Mr. MacMahon understood him as behind the scenes talent but never really got him on screen no matter what gimmick he was using.

 

[NOLUBEZ]

Just watched a shoot last night with Raven and Honky Tonk Man he's got a great mind for business, one thing that stuck out was when he saidyou can do all the flips you want but if you cant talk on a mic not many people really give a shit which to some degree is true I guess.

I would have to agree with the underrated statement though in ECW he had great fueds with Sandman & Dreamer, his promos where he was sitting on a swingset or whatever in the middle of the night were some of the best. In wcw I loved the fueds he had with Saturn and Kanyon. WWE he was wasted though I think Vince with his acquisition of Ecw should've taken a look at some of the promos he cut and taken advantage of it , but i guess he probably had more important things to do.

 

[The Roid Rage]

Raven is not under rated at all. Obviously you the fans value him for what or who he is. One thing I can tell you about Raven is that he certainly feels that he is a hot commodity. Here in Desmoines, Iowa there is a local wrestling group called 3XW, he was going to come work for them but wanted $1000 for a show. That's a pretty staggering figure for a small independent wrestling organization.

Even IPW which is out of Algona, Iowa can't afford that. And this guy was serious. The way I see it, if you are down to working small independent feds like 3XW, than how do you think you deserve that much money. They make barely over that per show, why would they just give you that much? Especially when your presence isn't actually going to help their gate that much if at all? I know who he is and where he's been, I get that. You don't have to remind me of his resume, but still, why would a little place like that give you that much money?

As it goes for being under or over rated, Raven was never a big deal to me. I never got into that Emo self loathing gimmick. I always tried to figure out what was so bad about his life that he was so depressed or something. I know that was his gimmick and all but I just never got it. Obviously he is/was a decent wrestler, and able to captivate the attention of the audience, so I won't go out on a limb and say he was horrible or anything like that. Maybe there was just some untapped potential in him that was never utilized?

Now Days, as he is past his prime I couldn't say whether he is over rated now as to any point in his career. Coming back to TNA is probably the best move for him at this point, but I wouldn't be expecting some big illustrious run with TNA at the moment.

 

[Sasori]

I wouldn't say he was the MOST UNDERRATED WRESTLER EVER but he sure was under-rated on WWE and WCW his US Title reign wasn't that great and he never held anything major like the IC and WWE title in the WWE, BUT he did manage to win the ECW World Heavy Weight Championship twice! and the NWA Worlds Heavyweight championship once! So do I think hes THAT under-rated? NO! there are A LOT of talented wrestlers who never won a world title like Antonio Inoki, The Motor City Machine Guns, Shelton Benjamin, Junshin Liger, and fuckloads more! What about Eddie Guerrero he was world champion ONCE and he was respected! So Raven is not that UNDER RATED!

 

[Jack-Hammer]

A lot of people think Raven is underrated, I just don't agree. Everything about Raven to me suggests he's a good mid-card wrestler, but he's not main event material at all. A lot of people have grown to love him cuz of his work on the indy circuit but, whenever he made it into the big time, he just didn't take. He had several title runs in both WCW and the WWF, but he just never really stuck with people. I agree that, sometimes, the powers that be in a promotion do assign shitty spots to wrestlers. However, you have to take that sow's ear and turn it into a silk purse. If the angle is shitty, do something to make the fans care about it anyway. That is the mark of a main eventer and Raven could never do that.

When Raven was in the old ECW, let's be honest, the ECW Championship didn't mean shit. A lot of prestige has been bestowed retroactively to the old ECW but, at the time, it was barely on the radar. I agree that ECW did have some influence on how the big boys, WCW and WWF, did business but they were NEVER going to be a threat to either of those too. As to the whole "world title" business in and of itself, a title doesn't have to have "world" as part of its name to be considered a respected world championship. You hear Mike Tenay and Don West refer to the IWGP Heavyweight Championship as New Japan Pro Wrestling's version of the world heavyweight championship. Anyhow, comparing Raven to the likes of Antonio Inoki or Jushin Liger should be a crime. They're legends, Raven is, in my view, a neverwas. Like Shane Douglas, he's a guy that's had a lot of potential but superstardom never really came his way.

 

[MisterRob]

A lot of people think Raven is underrated, I just don't agree. Everything about Raven to me suggests he's a good mid-card wrestler, but he's not main event material at all. A lot of people have grown to love him cuz of his work on the indy circuit but, whenever he made it into the big time, he just didn't take. He had several title runs in both WCW and the WWF, but he just never really stuck with people. I agree that, sometimes, the powers that be in a promotion do assign shitty spots to wrestlers. However, you have to take that sow's ear and turn it into a silk purse. If the angle is shitty, do something to make the fans care about it anyway. That is the mark of a main eventer and Raven could never do that.

I think your opinion here is a bit skewered based on you blaming Raven for not succeeding and proving himself a main eventer based on the opportunities he was given. The fact is, in ECW he was a main eventer in every possible way you could be one and a very credible one. He took the ball and ran with it with a character that was revolutionary and I believe one of the most in depth and creative characters in wrestling history. In WCW he may not have been given the chance to be a top main eventer, but he certainly took every opportunity he had and made himself stand out during that time. His entire time in WCW with the flock storylines he was extremely over and should've been pushed further, but he was in a company run by past their prime wrestlers who dominated the main event through politics and cliques and he didn't have a chance to step higher then the mid-card he was given, not because he wasn't entirely over or because the crowd didn't want to see it, but solely because of powers beyond him. He had a very intriguing and over character in WCW, his storylines were far more interesting then half the stuff that was going on in WCW at the time, and he had some great matches (such as the one with Benoit). In WCW Raven was merely underused. This was even MORE the case when he was in WWE. He was not given any kind of a chance at all during his entire run with WWE.. you can't get over, you can't reach the crowd, and you don't have a chance at all to shine and become a star (no matter how good you are) if you are given no storylines at all from the writers, are given no mic time to connect with the audience and develop a character, and aren't showcased in any way. A clear example of that is Steve Austin's time in WCW.. he was underused and had no chance to become the star he COULD because of everything else BUT himself and he only became a star when he was given a chance to showcase his talents and connect with the audience. The writers, the company, has to allow that to happen.

In TNA Raven was underused as well.. he was one of the most over characters during the reigns of Jeff Jarrett and the audience wanted nothing more then Raven to be given his chance and to be champion, yet Jarrett's constant reigns as champion (undeservingly) held him back. Raven finally got his chance, but even then his reign wasn't used properly and there are so many, many examples in TNA of Raven being misused terribly.

I do believe Raven is underrated in some ways, because he doesn't get enough credit from many for the ability he has both in the ring and certainly creatively, because Raven is phenomenal on the mic and with developing an intriguing and complex character that people want to see and can get into (when given the chance). I certainly, though, think Raven has been one of the most UNDERUTILIZED talents in wrestling. The only time he wasn't was in ECW, and his time there proves a lot about when he's given the chance and given content to work with.

When Raven was in the old ECW, let's be honest, the ECW Championship didn't mean shit. A lot of prestige has been bestowed retroactively to the old ECW but, at the time, it was barely on the radar. I agree that ECW did have some influence on how the big boys, WCW and WWF, did business but they were NEVER going to be a threat to either of those too.

Much like TNA, but in their case its to an even Lesser degree.

 

[attila]

I haven't got a lot of time to type, so I'll resort to a half-assed spamming attempt... but I always felt that Chris Jericho and Raven should have been the guys that feuded with Goldberg during his first title run. They both had heat with him - Goldberg just barely beat Raven for the US title only two months before he became champ and there was ongoing heat leading into his match with Hogan. They were the two best talkers and the two best wrestlers, with great gimmicks and great minds for the business.

WCW gave Raven the opportunity - he was one of the main acts back in the day of the flock and got a shitload of camera time. I will always be of the opinion that Goldberg was the wrong guy to lead the company in that 1998 period. He was just downright boring. No mic skills, no in-ring talent, no nothing. And this was up against the era of The Rock, Austin and the Undertaker's Ministry. A guy like Raven with amazing mic skills and his gimmick of just having a sick talent for inflicting pain to rid him of his own would have been the alternative angle that WCW needed to take. He was in his prime and could have proven quite successful on top. Egos got the best of everyone.

I agree that his TNA run was pretty crap as champion- but Jarret cut it short because of course nobody could take TNA seriously if anyone except him was the champion leading into their Spike debut. It was the wrong time anyway. By that time Raven's problems had caught up with him and he gained all that weight and he became immobile - you could just tell he was a mess. Which is why he never got his rematch that they had been teasing for months with that Larry Zbysko screw job angle.

Definitely underrated... but I think just a combination of wrong place, wrong time killed Raven's career prospects and stopped him from ever becoming a top level player.

 

[[email protected]]

It is very fair to say that Raven is underrated, but in that fairness, a lot of Raven's lack of success can be pinned on Raven himself.

Raven is the king of bad timing and the king of making everyone else look good. Raven's problem really is that he is far too good at what he does, and far to giving.

A prime example is the "flock" angle in WCW. Raven's Flock consisted mostly of underused mid-card wrestlers and jobbers, who were evenutally propelled to prosperity due to the matches they would actually wrestle while Raven sat back and witnessed.

Raven has the talent and ability to make ANYONE look good, and he does that to a great deal. Raven MADE Stevie Richards, as well as Billy Kidman, and quite a few other wrestlers in his day. Raven could work a match with the Ultimate Warrior and make that guy look every bit as good as Ric Flair.

On to his bad timing, Raven entered WCW when their big thing was overused 80s WWE leftovers who crowded the top cards and left no room for the younger guys. As you said, he entered WWE when there were already a huge amount of top-tier stars and performers. There simply wasn't room for Raven. Besides, Raven's character wasn't created by Vince McMahon, and we all know what happens to people like that. IE = Goldberg.

I was a huge ECW fan, but the biggest drawback to the talent was that they stayed loyal far beyond when they should have. I think Paul Heymans biggest mistakes were holding on to these guys far too long, and keeping them from being able to show their true potential. Raven is a classic case of this, along with Taz and Tommy Dreamer. Mike Awesome comes to mind also. Perhaps if Paul had sent them packing at thier peaks, before Stone Cold, The Rock, Chris Jericho etc were already on top, There might have been room for Raven.

Raven's biggest problem is he never took his line "What about Raven" seriously enough. Had be been a little more aggressive backstage and pushed himself to brass harder, perhaps Raven could have been way farther along than he is.

 

[Jack-Hammer]

I think your opinion here is a bit skewered based on you blaming Raven for not succeeding and proving himself a main eventer based on the opportunities he was given. The fact is, in ECW he was a main eventer in every possible way you could be one and a very credible one. He took the ball and ran with it with a character that was revolutionary and I believe one of the most in depth and creative characters in wrestling history. In WCW he may not have been given the chance to be a top main eventer, but he certainly took every opportunity he had and made himself stand out during that time. His entire time in WCW with the flock storylines he was extremely over and should've been pushed further, but he was in a company run by past their prime wrestlers who dominated the main event through politics and cliques and he didn't have a chance to step higher then the mid-card he was given, not because he wasn't entirely over or because the crowd didn't want to see it, but solely because of powers beyond him. He had a very intriguing and over character in WCW, his storylines were far more interesting then half the stuff that was going on in WCW at the time, and he had some great matches (such as the one with Benoit). In WCW Raven was merely underused. This was even MORE the case when he was in WWE. He was not given any kind of a chance at all during his entire run with WWE.. you can't get over, you can't reach the crowd, and you don't have a chance at all to shine and become a star (no matter how good you are) if you are given no storylines at all from the writers, are given no mic time to connect with the audience and develop a character, and aren't showcased in any way. A clear example of that is Steve Austin's time in WCW.. he was underused and had no chance to become the star he COULD because of everything else BUT himself and he only became a star when he was given a chance to showcase his talents and connect with the audience. The writers, the company, has to allow that to happen.

In TNA Raven was underused as well.. he was one of the most over characters during the reigns of Jeff Jarrett and the audience wanted nothing more then Raven to be given his chance and to be champion, yet Jarrett's constant reigns as champion (undeservingly) held him back. Raven finally got his chance, but even then his reign wasn't used properly and there are so many, many examples in TNA of Raven being misused terribly.

I do believe Raven is underrated in some ways, because he doesn't get enough credit from many for the ability he has both in the ring and certainly creatively, because Raven is phenomenal on the mic and with developing an intriguing and complex character that people want to see and can get into (when given the chance). I certainly, though, think Raven has been one of the most UNDERUTILIZED talents in wrestling. The only time he wasn't was in ECW, and his time there proves a lot about when he's given the chance and given content to work with.





Much like TNA, but in their case its to an even Lesser degree.

How is my opinion skewered exactly? The guy was never able to make himself into a big deal outside of ECW. And, at the time he was in ECW, ECW wasn't that big of a deal really. He couldn't do it in WCW, WWE or TNA. It's not some interpromotional conspiracy to keep the guy down, he's just not nearly as good as his fans have tried desperately to make him out to be. I agree that, sometimes, he was given shit storylines to work with. Most wrestlers are at certain points. Take the Undertaker for example, the WWE put him into feuds with the likes of the Giant Gonzalez, King Mabel, King Kong Bundy, Kama, and The Great Khali. Feuds against terrible workers but the Undertaker still made fans care about seeing those matches. Making the fans care, in spite of being put in a shitty storyline against a shitty opponent is the mark of a main eventer. Raven has NEVER been able to do that in ANY major organization he's ever worked for. There comes a time when you either have to put up or shut up. Raven has NEVER put up in the big leagues, period.

 

[andymcg]

There comes a time when you either have to put up or shut up. Raven has NEVER put up in the big leagues, period.

Hate to jump in on this, but apart from ECW can you actually name me one fued with a main event level guy were Raven has had the chance to "put up or shut up" ?

in WCW he never got to fued with the likes of Hogan, Hall, Nash, Goldberg, Flair and the rest of the main event guys seriously. Sure he got a match or 2 from them such as Goldberg beating him for the US title but never a serious fued which he could draw fans. All he really got was The Flock which he made decent considering it was under-card wrestlers.

WWE he got nothing at all really, i cant recall him having anything to do with anyone in the league of Stone Cold, The Rock, Mick Foley, Etc.

ECW was the only place he got main event fued, with the likes of Tommy Dreamer and The Sandman, and boy everybody even these days remebers about how Tommy never beat his boy hood enemy in Raven in 3 years, and how Raven turned Sandmans own child against him.

 

[MisterRob]

How is my opinion skewered exactly? The guy was never able to make himself into a big deal outside of ECW. And, at the time he was in ECW, ECW wasn't that big of a deal really. He couldn't do it in WCW, WWE or TNA. It's not some interpromotional conspiracy to keep the guy down, he's just not nearly as good as his fans have tried desperately to make him out to be. I agree that, sometimes, he was given shit storylines to work with. Most wrestlers are at certain points. Take the Undertaker for example, the WWE put him into feuds with the likes of the Giant Gonzalez, King Mabel, King Kong Bundy, Kama, and The Great Khali. Feuds against terrible workers but the Undertaker still made fans care about seeing those matches. Making the fans care, in spite of being put in a shitty storyline against a shitty opponent is the mark of a main eventer. Raven has NEVER been able to do that in ANY major organization he's ever worked for. There comes a time when you either have to put up or shut up. Raven has NEVER put up in the big leagues, period.

I don't think that's true at all. Regardless of what people like you want to convince themselves NO ONE in any company makes THEMSELVES. If you aren't given the opportunity by management, if the writers and the bosses don't offer you the ball, if the company doesn't decide to put effort and time into you to develop a character and become a star.. you're not going to be. I don't care who you are or how much talent you have. Hogan would never have done a thing if Vince hadn't put everything in his power behind pushing and creating Hulkamania, Steve Austin wouldn't have been anything (just like he wasn't in WCW) if Vince hadn't accepted the chance that was there and given Austin the ball to run with, and every star in every company the same can be said. Raven would never have become the main event character he was and had such historical feuds in ECW if Heyman didn't not only see the talent and potential but take it and push it creatively. Saying there comes a time you have to either put up or shut up, in this context, is flawed logic to such a huge degree.

Raven went to WCW and didn't have a chance to reach his potential or take the ball and run with it because the main event was so crowed with old has-beens who didn't want to give up the spotlight. They had control of their spots, they had the bosses behind them, and Raven didn't have the opportunity to put up or shut up. He was placed in the mid-card, he was given the Flock storyline with underutilized and nobody wrestlers and he still made it WORK. Not only did he make it work, he got each of those nobody wrestlers over and got his entire storyline over to the point it was one of the more interesting aspects of WCW at the time and he was given the US title, the top championship he could reach (because he wasn't ever going to be given a chance with the Heavyweight title). His character was over and he SHOULD have been a top heel, he SHOULD have been given a place in the main event over other heels who the fans didn't want to see anymore but who were still pushed down people's throats. So he did put up or shut up, because he made the most out of what he was given and did even better then others would've in the same situation.

In WWE, as I stated before, he was given no television time to get over, no mic time to connect with the audience, and was placed as nothing but the low end of the roster. You can't put up or shut up if you're not given anything.. that's like you being placed on a soccer team and despite the fact you may have talent and more ability then others playing the coach keeps you on the bench because he'd rather put in his friend's kids or his own kids in the game over you. So every game you sit out, the entire season, and then someone says to you.. "oh, you just didn't have the ability. There comes a time where you either have to put up or shut up.."

The fact is is that powers outside of Raven's control, and that go beyond facts such as his ability or potential, held him back from ever having the chance to prove whether he could be a main event wrestler and actually be successful in WCW, WWE and even TNA, really. What's that mean? It means he was underutilized, or even misused, not that he had opportunities and just never could "make it" in the main event. He wasn't given chances to make it in the main event and fail.. and that's the big difference that makes your logic flawed, in my eyes.

 

[rko2779]

Raven is under rated, but not the most under rated. He has won his fare share of titles, and invented some great matches. WWE did in no way use him in the right way, if he had been ECW raven he might have been wwe champ. I hope tna lets him do what he does best and entertain the fans in and out of the ring. as far as most under rated goes I think of guys like Al Snow, Steve Richards and other solid guys that never got a fair chance.

 

[Jack-Hammer]

My logic isn't the least bit flawed. I'm just not dropping trou, bending over, grabbing my ankles and taking it up the tail pipe from the Raven fan club. And let's lay off the "people like you" comments. It's not my fault Raven completely sucks ass. As I've said before, ECW was absolutely nothing when Raven was there. ECW only became this "revered" organization retroactively. More prestige is assigned to the company now than it ever possessed during its "prime". And that was the only time Raven has been anything resembling a force in wrestling. It all can't be blamed on the companies, not all of it. In ECW, Raven was a big fish in a little pond. After he got out of the bingo halls and high school gyms and into 20,000 seat arenas, he showed what he had and it was NEVER main event caliber. Not even close.

I'd hardly call the Flock over. Raven had a full day's reign as U.S. Champion before being demolished by Goldberg. Raven was simply mid-card material and that's all he ever has been. I'm sorry if the truth hurts, but it is what it is. I've heard Raven on the mic and am I supposed to be impressed by the depressed, whoa is me, nihilistic grunge monkey? Was I supposed to be sucked in by while he was waxing philosophical and literary allusions? If the idea was to make himself seem like a doomed tragedy with delusions of greatness, then he succeeded beyond his wildest dreams.

So it's all the fault of all the companies he ever worked for? He was just so immensely talented that he could get over with the snap of his fingers if given the right angle? Sounds like the same bunk Shane Douglas has been spewing about himself for the past 15 years.