Official Raw/Smackdown Aftermath, Ratings and Review Thread

[Mitch Henessey]

The opening was fantastic, easily one of the best Raw openings I've seen in a long time. Heyman looked like such a weasel, and Vince's petrified reaction, when Lesnar hit the ring was just priceless. Still can't get used to Triple H with the short hair, but he got a strong pop from the crowd, when his music hit. The brawl was intense, brutal, and Lesnar bleeding like a stuck pig was the icing on the cake. Beyond pumped for their match at Wrestlemania, and I'm hoping they go with a submission victory only stipulation.

Cena VS Punk was just...wow. An easy 10/10, A+, or five stars. It was just a great match, and I can't remember the last time a TV match brought that much excitement out of me. I was on the edge of my seat towards the end, and the near falls were genuinely shocking. I had NO idea what would happen. Double pin fall? Maybe Punk wins, and they insert Cena in the middle somehow to make it a triple threat? Fantastic match between these two, and I put it right up there with the match from MITB '11 and Summerslam '11. Funny thing is, I didn't have high expectations for this, because for some odd reason, I couldn't forget about their underwhelming encounter at Raw 1,000.

With all that said, everything else was kind of "meh." Yeah, Trump going into the HOF was a cool announcement, but we already knew about it before Raw hit the air. Miz almost ruined the segment between Zeb, Jack, and Del Rio. Seriously, WHY did he need to be there??? He was just annoying as the moderator, and I'm developing genuine amounts of disdain for his horrendous face character.

I compare the three hour Raws to the layout of a Paranormal Activity film: the beginning hooks you in, the last ten or fifteen minutes will have you on the edge of your seat, but everything in between is either boring as shit, forgettable, or not worth watching.

Grade: A

 

[Mustang Sally]

...and Lesnar bleeding like a stuck pig was the icing on the cake.

That's for sure. It left me with the image of John Cena's mouth bleeding after the meeting at Raw with Brock last year.....and I was happy to see Brock get a taste of his own.

Also enjoyed the look of consternation on Brock's face when Triple H's music hit. I didn't think he was capable of showing anything but that tough-guy attitude.

Trips vs. Lesnar at WM sounds great to me.

 

[thomasgj]

You know why the Divas Champion hasn't been on Raw? Because, all in all, nobody gives a shit about the Diva Division. Vince McMahon doesn't give a shit about the Diva Division, so there's no reason for anyone else to.

This is WrestleMania season and, frankly, there's no need for WWE to waste any time on the Divas when the Divas aren't a relevant aspect of WWE. Given a choice, I'd much rather see WWE focus attention on matches that are actually going to make them money for WrestleMania. You know, little matches like Triple H vs. Lesnar, Cena vs. Rock, possibly Taker vs. Punk, Del Rio vs. Swagger, etc. And what's this bullshit about being punished for "outshining the men". TNA is where the women's segments & matches almost always outdraw the men. The VAST majority of the time, the Diva segments are among the lowest rated segments on Raw. So please, don't try to make it sound like the Divas are a relevant part of WWE or that they're a bigger draw than the male wrestlers are. You'll only embarrass yourself.

Of course no one gives a shit about a division that, as you said, management couldn't care less about. Perhaps you weren't aware, but WWE doesn't like it when their female talents look better than even the low card males. Which is why they are asked to retape their matches if they look too good, and why they are given restrictions on what moves they can use, and why they're only given 3 minutes of TV time if WWE is feeling generous that night. They've been used as bathroom breaks and the second even the slightest amount of people take interest in them, they get kept off of television for weeks.

The Knockouts division is made up of former Divas, and it's basically a copy of what the division was in 2002-2008. You know, when the women were consistently getting higher ratings and garnering more interest from the crowd than everyone but the main eventers. Given the chance, they could be just as good as any man. If you think that the Divas went from main-eventing RAW to not appearing for a month because people just suddenly lost interest and not because management is deliberately holding them back... Well, who's the fool again?

Don't believe me? Look up interviews from former Divas like McCool, Victoria/Tara, or even Gail Kim. Listen to them tell you how they're told by officials to fight girly or how they get in trouble for putting on good matches. Maybe no one cares, but it's not because of the talent.

 

[jerry20xx]

Last night's main event was nothing to be proud about. OMG a piledriver! OMG another hurricarana! The only reason anyone would think this was a good match is because they are used to the watered down WWE product. They put on one good match in the past 12 months and everyone is shitting rainbows and glitter. If you really think that was a good match, you should watch any match featuring Sting and Ric Flair from the 70s - late 90s

 

[Dysturbed]

OMG a piledriver! OMG another hurricarana! The only reason anyone would think this was a good match is because they are used to the watered down WWE product.

As true as the watered down thing may be, it does stand to reason that if something is rare, it may mean more when people see it. Regardless, I am guessing that it isn't the "only reason" why anyone would think it, considering that every person is capable of having their own criteria and rationality of why they enjoy something, as flawed as others may think that criteria may be.

If you really think that was a good match, you should watch any match featuring Sting and Ric Flair from the 70s - late 90s

In your opinion, what about those who thought that it was a good match, are fully aware of the other matches that you mentioned and many other great ones, agrees that those matches are better, but still think that last night's match was good? In other words, while I'm sure that a lot of people fully agree that there are better better examples of what makes a good or great match it doesn't mean that exposure to better matches (which still are opinion based since even commonly held opinions can be viewed as the opposite by others) will have any reason to change one's view of last night's match.

I myself enjoyed the match despite knowing that the outcome was obvious.

 

[Kidpolean]

I think Cena sucks and i think that Punk is overrated but WOW was that match awesome...First time I have jumped off of my couch during a near fall on raw in years..That match could have main evented Mania it was that good....Punk and Cena just earned my respect

 

[Jack-Hammer]

Of course no one gives a shit about a division that, as you said, management couldn't care less about. Perhaps you weren't aware, but WWE doesn't like it when their female talents look better than even the low card males. Which is why they are asked to retape their matches if they look too good, and why they are given restrictions on what moves they can use, and why they're only given 3 minutes of TV time if WWE is feeling generous that night. They've been used as bathroom breaks and the second even the slightest amount of people take interest in them, they get kept off of television for weeks.

Or it's also entirely possible that many of the Divas just aren't that good? Aksana is horrible inside the ring, Alicia Fox is sloppy, Katilyn is also sloppy though she's improving, AJ Lee hasn't wrestled a match in months. Kelly Kelly was, at times, beyond awkward in the ring. Maria was also pretty damn sloppy. Tamina is as bland as dishwater and is where she is primarily because of her family legacy. The only Divas they've had who've really been worth watching in the ring the past 5 years have been Natalya, Beth Phoenix, Michelle McCool, and Mickie James. All of them are gone, so we're left with the not so cream of the crop.

The Knockouts division is made up of former Divas, and it's basically a copy of what the division was in 2002-2008. You know, when the women were consistently getting higher ratings and garnering more interest from the crowd than everyone but the main eventers. Given the chance, they could be just as good as any man. If you think that the Divas went from main-eventing RAW to not appearing for a month because people just suddenly lost interest and not because management is deliberately holding them back... Well, who's the fool again?

Yeah, I call complete bullshit on this and you're the fool if you're going to say that the Divas were EVER main eventing Raw. And no, the Knockout Division is nothing light the Divas from 2002 to 2008. In the Knockout Division there are no Lingerie Matches, no Pillow Fight Matches, no Bikini Contests. Every now and again during that time period, some Divas would be given actual matches but they were NEVER show stealers. Trish Stratus and Lita NEVER stole the show from Shawn Michaels or The Rock just as Natalya & Beth Phoenix wouldn't steal the show from CM Punk or John Cena. I've seen nothing from the Divas in WWE or the Knockouts in TNA to show that they have the potential to be every bit as good as their male counterparts. Women's wrestling does not make money in America. It never has. Women's wrestling has been having a tough time even in countries where it's been more relevant, like Japan and Mexico. I'm not saying that women can't be good wrestlers, don't get me wrong there, but the women in WWE & TNA are there and draw what they do because they happen to look hot in skin tight and/or skimpy outfits. It's not so much the talent as it is the sex appeal. Otherwise, why wouldn't Shimmer be a big deal by now? Why isn't Wrestlicious a relevant force? Why did the Gorgeous Ladies of Wrestling fade into near total obscurity? Why did the Powerful Women of Wrestling, the Ladies Sports Club and the Women of Wrestling promotions close down? Because women's wrestling doesn't make money and it doesn't make money because most people simply don't care about it. Women's wrestling in America is primarily a novelty act. As I said, there are women who are very good wrestlers but they have NEVER been the central aspect of any major professional wrestling promotion.

 

[Finalite]

Or it's also entirely possible that many of the Divas just aren't that good? Aksana is horrible inside the ring, Alicia Fox is sloppy, Katilyn is also sloppy though she's improving, AJ Lee hasn't wrestled a match in months. Kelly Kelly was, at times, beyond awkward in the ring. Maria was also pretty damn sloppy. Tamina is as bland as dishwater and is where she is primarily because of her family legacy. The only Divas they've had who've really been worth watching in the ring the past 5 years have been Natalya, Beth Phoenix, Michelle McCool, and Mickie James. All of them are gone, so we're left with the not so cream of the crop.

Which is also related to management because apparently they don't sign divas for their skills, but for their looks, which makes every diva's match a complete botchfest... along with using most divas as mere eyecandy for the male wrestlers, hello to AJ Lee and especially Natalya. Then again i've read up that there were a few new divas signed by now, so that might be up for change some time soon.


RAW was fantastic to be honest, from start to finish there were some great things. Brock vs. HHH having a rematch at Mania isn't what i'm excited about since it seems predictable to a point, but seeing Brock bleed like that was pretty amazing. All of it was predictable, but still very fun to watch.

Ziggler was fed to Ryback, which i'm okay with, I suppose... the guy is much better at selling than most other stuff, and should be used to make other guys look strong, like he did very convincingly with Ryback. But even a guy in a position like that needs his wins every once in a while, maybe he should just fade out of the picture until he cashes in.

Henry squashing Khali again quells the rumours of a Mania match between the two, which is good because nobody wants to see Khali at Wrestlemania, and he should end his career before he gets seriously injured. Not really a point to the whole match, and we didn't even get to see most of it, but I enjoy watching Mark Henry. Best monster heel right now.

MizTV was good, mostly because Miz didn't get to talk much - Colter and Del Rio had a great segment. Colter doing his usual stuff just carrying Jack Swagger with his amazing speeches, Del Rio got himself over some more as a face, and all in all it hyped up for their Mania match pretty nicely. Some people complain about Jack Swagger still sounding really awkward whenever he talks and him being nothing without Colter, but I think it works to a point in leading up to an eventual face turn when it comes out Swagger was more "brainwashed" as Lawler and Cole put it than thinking for himself.

What the hell was Orton squashing Cesaro though? He's the US champion for crying out loud, he can't just get devastated by Super-Orton. Really really awkward booking on that one, makes Cesaro look weaker than he should, and doesn't really achieve much for Orton - we all know he's one of the strongest wrestlers in the company right now, and he doesn't really have a match to be set up for yet. Awkward.

Sheamus is horrible at making jokes, and someone should tell him you can be a face without failing miserably at comedy every week. I... guess it sets up for Wade Barrett versus Sheamus at Mania, which is fine, but Barrett needs to be built into a legitimate threat before such a match happens... Sheamus beat him a few too many times, and Barrett in general seems below Sheamus' level right now. It beats feuding with Bo Dallas though.

I enjoyed Cody Rhodes vs. R-Truth mostly because of Sandow's bits of commentary. The guy is amazing on the mic, way better than in the ring, and I wouldn't mind seeing him there much more often. The match itself was pretty meh.

The tag team match was disappointing. I mean... what the hell, seriously... is the Tag Team Division getting the diva treatment? They have no credible threat there anymore once Team Hell No disbands, which judging by the last weeks will be soon... the Prime Time Playas just got beat by a guy with a bag over his head and a guy with one arm, Sin Cara + Mysterio are still injured and very prone to injuries, Rhodes Scholars are disbanded, the fat dancers aren't really champion material, and even if they were, they'd be champions of an empty division... weird indeed, and no future prospects.

The Shield segment was pretty cool, guess it sets up The Shield vs. Sheamus, Orton and Ryback for Mania... but wasn't Sheamus just fighting with Wade Barrett ten minutes ago? Weird stuff. Orton getting involved in The Shield is nice though, I still think a heel turn is in order for him, and what better way to do it than joining The Shield by betraying his fellow face team at Mania. Time will tell.

I enjoy getting The Miz beat up, no matter who it's by... that being said I don't think the match was very good. The Miz is another guy who WWE apparently has no clue what to do with now that his face turn and the Ric Flair thing failed mizerably, so he's jobbing to the guys who get pushed. Maybe a gimmick change, but I can't see him doing anything but "obnoxious and in dire need of a punch to the face".

The main event got the praise it deserves - lots of people already talked about that, so i'll keep it short - John Cena and CM Punk have amazing chemistry in the ring, and frequently bring out the best in each other. That being said I fear that The Rock vs. John Cena will just be incredibly pale compared to watching those two go at each other, so despite that win, I still hope it's a triple threat if just for the sake of having the main event of Mania not fail. John Cena can wrestle, he just needs someone who brings that out in him. The Rock is not that man, he needs someone to carry him himself.

 

[cole phelps]

It was a shit show. Triple h beating lesnar LOL LOL LOL. I'll never get over that..... disgraceful..... Maybe if triple h wasnt such an ass kisser backstage i'd buy into this but you just know he played the '' im married to steph let me burry brock'' card like he allways does. Fuck him.

The rest of the show wasnt worth commenting on.Swagger and coluter getting burried for speaking the truth ( In some areas not the whole thing. I mean in terms of illegal immigrants going to the U.S only to break laws and ruin the place) ? Please ! no wonder americas such a shit country these days lol.

I really hope they get their shit together i legit want to stab del rio. It's bad enough he plays the race card to get cheers and they created the whole racist gimmick for swagger so del rio can come out of it looking super cool..... get out of here with that b.s. All this proves is the fans will cheer anyone wwe tells them too.

Go back and watch how the big show was treated storyline wise by booker t and del rio and explain why big show was a heel ? He was bullied for weeks by booker t being put in pointless whc matches for no reason other than booker t doesnt like him.... complete garbage. Killed booker t's and del rio's characters right their.

Then you have del rio cheat twice to beat show and i'm scratching my head.... why do people cheer this fuckhead ?

I seriously dont get wwe logic these days. The good guys are assholes the bad guys are the victims of bullying wtf ?

 

[thomasgj]

Or it's also entirely possible that many of the Divas just aren't that good? Aksana is horrible inside the ring, Alicia Fox is sloppy, Katilyn is also sloppy though she's improving, AJ Lee hasn't wrestled a match in months. Kelly Kelly was, at times, beyond awkward in the ring. Maria was also pretty damn sloppy. Tamina is as bland as dishwater and is where she is primarily because of her family legacy. The only Divas they've had who've really been worth watching in the ring the past 5 years have been Natalya, Beth Phoenix, Michelle McCool, and Mickie James. All of them are gone, so we're left with the not so cream of the crop.



Yeah, I call complete bullshit on this and you're the fool if you're going to say that the Divas were EVER main eventing Raw. And no, the Knockout Division is nothing light the Divas from 2002 to 2008. In the Knockout Division there are no Lingerie Matches, no Pillow Fight Matches, no Bikini Contests. Every now and again during that time period, some Divas would be given actual matches but they were NEVER show stealers. Trish Stratus and Lita NEVER stole the show from Shawn Michaels or The Rock just as Natalya & Beth Phoenix wouldn't steal the show from CM Punk or John Cena. I've seen nothing from the Divas in WWE or the Knockouts in TNA to show that they have the potential to be every bit as good as their male counterparts. Women's wrestling does not make money in America. It never has. Women's wrestling has been having a tough time even in countries where it's been more relevant, like Japan and Mexico. I'm not saying that women can't be good wrestlers, don't get me wrong there, but the women in WWE & TNA are there and draw what they do because they happen to look hot in skin tight and/or skimpy outfits. It's not so much the talent as it is the sex appeal. Otherwise, why wouldn't Shimmer be a big deal by now? Why isn't Wrestlicious a relevant force? Why did the Gorgeous Ladies of Wrestling fade into near total obscurity? Why did the Powerful Women of Wrestling, the Ladies Sports Club and the Women of Wrestling promotions close down? Because women's wrestling doesn't make money and it doesn't make money because most people simply don't care about it. Women's wrestling in America is primarily a novelty act. As I said, there are women who are very good wrestlers but they have NEVER been the central aspect of any major professional wrestling promotion.

None of the divas are awful in the ring as WWE would have you believe. If you've ever seen any of them in FCW or OVW you would know that. Aksana isn't allowed to showcase her strength, Tamina's moveset is extremely restricted because of her powerhouse style, even Natalya is only allowed to use a fraction of what she's capable of. Alicia isn't sloppy and she's a great seller. Also, don't you find it weird that AJ, their top and most over female talent, hasn't been used as a part of the division in a year? Almost as off people would be too interested in the division for their liking if she was involved. Kind of like how they kept Eve out of a wrestling role when she was getting massive heat from the crowd. No way in hell could they outshine the main event guys like Cena or Punk , or even Randy or Sheamus; but even if, say, Naomi and Batakta put in a better match than The Miz and Jinder Mahal, they're penalized for.

Let's not act like all of the diva competed in those gimmick matches, either. Women hired specifically for eye candy did, but the actual tithe contenders like Lita, Trish, Molly, Jazz, Victoria etc never did. Also, how am I bullshitting about the girls being on RAW's main event on several occasions? How can I make that up?

 

[Y2JBL]

Last night's main event was nothing to be proud about. OMG a piledriver! OMG another hurricarana! The only reason anyone would think this was a good match is because they are used to the watered down WWE product. They put on one good match in the past 12 months and everyone is shitting rainbows and glitter. If you really think that was a good match, you should watch any match featuring Sting and Ric Flair from the 70s - late 90s

Glad to see someone else being realistic about it. I just logged onto the forums for the first time in months to voice my opinion about that match on RAW, and everyone's subsequent drooling over it.

That match was not very good. It was an overload of false finishes and kickouts the likes of which you see in ROH (or used to) and other indys where the guys don't really know how to tell a compelling story, so they just kick out of everything for 60 minutes and keep faking out the finish. Plus it totally ruins my suspension of disbelief to see the inconsistency of the impact of these finishers. Next week the Attitude Adjustment will go back to breaking some poor fool's spine in one go. But little skinnyfat CM Punk was able to take 3 or 4 and still almost beat Cena? And Cena could take a bunch of running knees to the face, GTS attempts, Anaconda Vices, etc.

The false finish is to wrestling matches what the "cheap pop" is to cutting promos. You don't really have a captivating story to tell, so just start kicking out of moves that would normally end a match. It's as cheesy as pandering to the fans by shouting out the name of the town you're in. It's not real, intelligent storytelling. Kicking out of a finisher should be rare. I've seen people defend what happened on Raw by saying it was the 2 top guys in the company fighting for a spot at WrestleMania and that's why they fought through the pain of the moves. I understand, but it was still too much of a false-finish-fest for me. You can tell a good story without a million kickouts. There have been epic matches throughout history that didn't rely on making your own finishers look shitty.

And yes, after depriving fans of good wrestling for so many years, I guess you can throw in a shoddy piledriver, a sitout powerbomb, and a botched hurricanrana, and have people raving about the match of the decade afterwards. It looked like CM Punk struggled to get Cena into the proper vertical position for that piledriver. It'd be understandable that Vince would get upset that they called a banned move in the first place, but even more understandable when you see Punk struggling with it and possibly dropping your main eventer at WM on his neck. Cena survived that just to almost kill himself with his own botch at the end of the match. It's funny how much Punk gets away with because the office knows they haven't succeeded at building any other big stars. I thought Punk would be heading hastily down the card after punching a fan in the face with Vince McMahon looking on from the ring, nothing happened. Now he's performing risky banned moves. Vince's ego wouldn't allow anyone else to get away with it, but I guess Punk really has that much stroke backstage. Not that I blame him, he really is one of the best in the ring, on the mic, and everything else, so what are they going to do, fire him?

So for the younger crowd, or those that have only been watching the product for the last few years, or those who no longer remember how it used to be, I'm sure the main event we saw on Raw really was mind blowing. I thought it was garbage. And not because I think Punk and Cena are bad performers. That's actually why it's upsetting in the first place. Because I would have expected the two of them to come up with something much better than "you kick out of this, and then get up, drop me, I'll kick out, hit my finisher, you kick out, kick out kick out kick out".

The reappearance of classic moves like the piledriver and the powerbomb was nice to see, but only for a few seconds until you start to ask yourself what kind of wrestling company has been putting on matches for so many years where you never see that stuff anymore in the first place. I never thought I'd see the day where a simple powerbomb would become a " holy crap I haven't seen that in a while!" moment.

 

[The Eighties]

I remember "the good old days" just fine thanks, I've been critical of the Taker vs Triple H matches that are so beloved here for all the weapons crutch spots and so forth, so modern WWE isn't my point of reference for a great match, neither is the bloated attitude era. However Cena vs Punk was excellent no matter the era. the false finishes were so well worked they drew the audience in, the brilliant way each guy countered the others signature moves throughout the match told the story of how well these two know each other and that is why the powerbomb and piledriver worked, it was two guys having to dig deep and try things they don't normally do as a way to win, which was also reflected in the actual finish when Punk was taken off guard by the hurrincanara.

Also Punk clearly did not struggled to hit the piledriver at all.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jB-b7uL7wyM

 

[Mighty NorCal]

It was a shit show. Triple h beating lesnar LOL LOL LOL. I'll never get over that..... disgraceful..... Maybe if triple h wasnt such an ass kisser backstage i'd buy into this but you just know he played the '' im married to steph let me burry brock'' card like he allways does. Fuck him.

What fucking planet do you live on?


Anyways, phenominal show. Awesome, hot openiing sequence, great match between Ryback and Ziggler, great match between Orton and Swagger, phenominal promo segment with The Racists Vs The Mexicans. Im not quite as fussed over the ME match as everyone else is, it felt far, far too formulaic and segmented for tv for my liking, but overall pretty fucking great. By far the best since Mysterio Vs Cena in the Summer of 2011.

Pretty much everything anyone could ask for, despite a decided lack of Undertaker, and still lacking direction for your mid card titles (I dont care that this has been going on for years now, it still does, and always will, bother me)

A

 

[TWJC: The Beginning]

Glad to see someone else being realistic about it. I just logged onto the forums for the first time in months to voice my opinion about that match on RAW, and everyone's subsequent drooling over it.

That match was not very good. It was an overload of false finishes and kickouts the likes of which you see in ROH (or used to) and other indys where the guys don't really know how to tell a compelling story, so they just kick out of everything for 60 minutes and keep faking out the finish. Plus it totally ruins my suspension of disbelief to see the inconsistency of the impact of these finishers. Next week the Attitude Adjustment will go back to breaking some poor fool's spine in one go. But little skinnyfat CM Punk was able to take 3 or 4 and still almost beat Cena? And Cena could take a bunch of running knees to the face, GTS attempts, Anaconda Vices, etc.

The false finish is to wrestling matches what the "cheap pop" is to cutting promos. You don't really have a captivating story to tell, so just start kicking out of moves that would normally end a match. It's as cheesy as pandering to the fans by shouting out the name of the town you're in. It's not real, intelligent storytelling. Kicking out of a finisher should be rare. I've seen people defend what happened on Raw by saying it was the 2 top guys in the company fighting for a spot at WrestleMania and that's why they fought through the pain of the moves. I understand, but it was still too much of a false-finish-fest for me. You can tell a good story without a million kickouts. There have been epic matches throughout history that didn't rely on making your own finishers look shitty.

And yes, after depriving fans of good wrestling for so many years, I guess you can throw in a shoddy piledriver, a sitout powerbomb, and a botched hurricanrana, and have people raving about the match of the decade afterwards. It looked like CM Punk struggled to get Cena into the proper vertical position for that piledriver. It'd be understandable that Vince would get upset that they called a banned move in the first place, but even more understandable when you see Punk struggling with it and possibly dropping your main eventer at WM on his neck. Cena survived that just to almost kill himself with his own botch at the end of the match. It's funny how much Punk gets away with because the office knows they haven't succeeded at building any other big stars. I thought Punk would be heading hastily down the card after punching a fan in the face with Vince McMahon looking on from the ring, nothing happened. Now he's performing risky banned moves. Vince's ego wouldn't allow anyone else to get away with it, but I guess Punk really has that much stroke backstage. Not that I blame him, he really is one of the best in the ring, on the mic, and everything else, so what are they going to do, fire him?

So for the younger crowd, or those that have only been watching the product for the last few years, or those who no longer remember how it used to be, I'm sure the main event we saw on Raw really was mind blowing. I thought it was garbage. And not because I think Punk and Cena are bad performers. That's actually why it's upsetting in the first place. Because I would have expected the two of them to come up with something much better than "you kick out of this, and then get up, drop me, I'll kick out, hit my finisher, you kick out, kick out kick out kick out".

The reappearance of classic moves like the piledriver and the powerbomb was nice to see, but only for a few seconds until you start to ask yourself what kind of wrestling company has been putting on matches for so many years where you never see that stuff anymore in the first place. I never thought I'd see the day where a simple powerbomb would become a " holy crap I haven't seen that in a while!" moment.

it did tell a story. The power bomb workers we because WWE doesn't kill move credibility. Punk didn't struggle, also if he strained, that's because Cena is heavy. The match actually told a great story. Maybe it was over your head. This feud reminds me of Joe vs punk. Lots of counters of counters and guys pulling out moves they don't usually do to win. Punk using the pile driver on Cena's damaged neck (and working the neck early). The great drama of Cena using a hurricarana, a move that is risky to the neck, to get the win. You're either a troll or a smart with our head so far up your own ass that you don't actuall enjoy pro wrestling anymore if you thought it was a bad match. Or you have hipster syndrome. If you legitimately thought this was a bad match, there's a good chance you don't like pro wrestling.

Also, it wasn't a botched hurricarana, thats how bigger guys do it so they don't break their neck. If everything is done crisp and quick, it looks like gymnastics and lacks emotion and storytelling. WWE's "watered down" aka smarter story style is why guys aren't dying in the ring and power bombs and pile drivers get pops, not no sell fighting spirit bullshit 5 minutes in.

I'm pretty sure punk only took 1 AA. They countered each other a lot. Should have paid closer attention. They built anticipation by not actually hitting that many finishers but getting close then getting countered. However you wanted to come across, maybe as some sophisticated smark or something, it failed. As someone who's talked wrestling with Harley race and terry funk, and actually taken bumps, you come across as a wannabe hipster fan.

 

[boywithbluehanger]

Glad to see someone else being realistic about it. I just logged onto the forums for the first time in months to voice my opinion about that match on RAW, and everyone's subsequent drooling over it.

That match was not very good. It was an overload of false finishes and kickouts the likes of which you see in ROH (or used to) and other indys where the guys don't really know how to tell a compelling story, so they just kick out of everything for 60 minutes and keep faking out the finish. Plus it totally ruins my suspension of disbelief to see the inconsistency of the impact of these finishers. Next week the Attitude Adjustment will go back to breaking some poor fool's spine in one go. But little skinnyfat CM Punk was able to take 3 or 4 and still almost beat Cena? And Cena could take a bunch of running knees to the face, GTS attempts, Anaconda Vices, etc.

The false finish is to wrestling matches what the "cheap pop" is to cutting promos. You don't really have a captivating story to tell, so just start kicking out of moves that would normally end a match. It's as cheesy as pandering to the fans by shouting out the name of the town you're in. It's not real, intelligent storytelling. Kicking out of a finisher should be rare. I've seen people defend what happened on Raw by saying it was the 2 top guys in the company fighting for a spot at WrestleMania and that's why they fought through the pain of the moves. I understand, but it was still too much of a false-finish-fest for me. You can tell a good story without a million kickouts. There have been epic matches throughout history that didn't rely on making your own finishers look shitty....

This. This is exactly what I thought while watching the match on RAW. I just knew that after it was over, everyone would be clamoring about how awesome the match was and how it "told a great story"(a very overused wrestling phrase that really needs to die because of smarks using it in a vague way without giving a decent explanation as to WHY or HOW the "story" of a match is good, great, terrible etc.) The match wasn't awful by any means but you hit the nail on the head when you said that incessantly kicking out of finishers is nothing more than a way to get a cheap pop from the crowd. And it really devalues the impact of those finishing moves overall. Over-exaggerating is the type of thing that ruins what may truly be a 5-star match down the road. The match was fun to watch but it relied too heavily on kickouts of finishers.

Why is it that so many people only seem to see the good in stuff and not the bad? (vice versa) Nothing is 100% perfect. Pointing out the flaws of the match don't mean that it sucked to me. It just means that the match took an unnecessary turn when it could have focused on putting these two men through hell without using finishers. Punk sure as hell is familiar with enough offensive power maneuvers to find a way to attack Cena without having to go straight for the pin afterwards.

Anyway, like I said, it was a fun, good, match, but it wasn't the "great match" that many (who were caught up in the moment) would have you believe.

 

[The Eighties]

Smackdown was a solid show but JBL being absent meant Lawler & Cole are on commentary yukking it up, this is never worse than when they chuckle like two kids at Del Rio's line to Sandow that sounded like it was written by a 5 year old. The Del Rio vs Sandow match itself pretty good with Sandow getting in plenty of offense before succumbing to the cross-armbreaker.

Cesaro vs Miz in a 2 out of 3 falls match was the best match on the show even if one of the falls happens while they are on a commercial break. Miz using the Figure 4 and being a face isn't working but Cesaro is great and this served as a good blow off for their feud with both guys coming out of it looking good.

Team Hell No vs PTP is more comedy stuff with Bryan and Kane reversing their blindfolded/arm behind the back stip from Raw, personally I think this thing has run it's course and Bryan needs to be put back in the singles picture post-Mania.

The Colter/Swagger/JR interview was more awkwardness that is eventually interrupted by Del Rio, honestly the 2 brief promos cut here by Del Rio and Swagger were very weak, I can't recall two poorer mic workers in a high profile feud at Mania.

The Orton vs Show main event was decent, Show took a couple of great bumps and a scary looking top rope DDT before The Shield get involved and Sheamus runs in. Big Show knocking Reigns out was cool and Reigns sold it like death. Despite Show then Choke-slamming Orton, and Sheamus Brogue kicking show, I wonder if Sheamus, Orton and Show might become an uneasy alliance against The Shield at Mania.

 

[The Fabulous Rougeau's]

We have two matches currently booked for WrestleMania XXIX and those are the 2 world title matches. Do you think we see any other matches offically announced tonight?

I think we get the offical announcement on HHH/Brock, and we get the set up for Taker/Punk. Than starting with next weeks Raw we will begin to see the remainder of the card fill out.

 

[briancostello]

I don't post much, but read many of the articles and threads. I wanted to post about this Old School RAW tonight.

The first hour of this RAW was absolutely fantastic. The Taker, The fatal four way set up for the main event were great. I especially loved the segment with Ryback and Cesaro, then directly into the Mark Henry match. Mark Henry coming out when Ryback was on the ramp told a story, yet we were able to watch wrestling...this was a great segment and I wish it happened more on RAW. The Miz vs Ziggler with Flair was great...I am a Miz mark, so I especially loved this. Buffalo is hot tonight too, that has to help...

What are your thoughts?

 

[TWJC: The Beginning]

This. This is exactly what I thought while watching the match on RAW. I just knew that after it was over, everyone would be clamoring about how awesome the match was and how it "told a great story"(a very overused wrestling phrase that really needs to die because of smarks using it in a vague way without giving a decent explanation as to WHY or HOW the "story" of a match is good, great, terrible etc.) The match wasn't awful by any means but you hit the nail on the head when you said that incessantly kicking out of finishers is nothing more than a way to get a cheap pop from the crowd. And it really devalues the impact of those finishing moves overall. Over-exaggerating is the type of thing that ruins what may truly be a 5-star match down the road. The match was fun to watch but it relied too heavily on kickouts of finishers.

Why is it that so many people only seem to see the good in stuff and not the bad? (vice versa) Nothing is 100% perfect. Pointing out the flaws of the match don't mean that it sucked to me. It just means that the match took an unnecessary turn when it could have focused on putting these two men through hell without using finishers. Punk sure as hell is familiar with enough offensive power maneuvers to find a way to attack Cena without having to go straight for the pin afterwards.

Anyway, like I said, it was a fun, good, match, but it wasn't the "great match" that many (who were caught up in the moment) would have you believe.

Go back and read my review of the match like 3 posts up. I explain the awesome story they told. Also, by match 6, there should be finisher reversals (again, actually not that many finishers hit, more reversed). Also, why the fuck wouldn't Punk go for a pin immediately? That's storytelling 101, the story of you wanting to win the match.

Tonight's raw was a lot of fun. Nothing spectacular like last week, but a lot of really solid matches and segments. Made me want to see Ryback vs Mark Henry.

 

[The Eighties]

Not a bad Raw, I was surprised when Taker's music hit to kick off the show and then it went to the Raw opening credits and he was gone, but then it made sense as the awkward set up for Punk's promo that followed.

Punk's promo was good as he explains seeing Taker now gives him a reason to go to Mania as before that he saw no point since he wasn't in the main event. His motivation for ending the streak is merely to piss off the fans, I also like how he brought up his record number vs Taker's record number, billing this as the streak vs the longest reigning champion in 25 years is a decent idea.

Orton interrupting with a solid promo saying he wanted to face Taker as he'd learned a lot since he lost to him as a rookie had me hoping we'd get Punk vs Orton tonight, but the Big Show comes out and explains that he'd have ended the streak ten years ago but apparently he didn't have a right hand back then. Sheamus then throws his name into the mix and Vickie (Looking voluptuous I might add) makes a Fatal 4 way as the main event, the winner faces Taker at Mania.

Ryback vs Cesaro is the first match of the night and for me the best match of the night and the best match Ryback has had so far. It's a really physical battle with Cesaro looking more aggressive than usual, the finish was great and actually had me thinking Cesaro was going to win for a split second. I don't like the US champ being used as a jobber but this was damn good stuff.

As Ryback is leaving Mark Henry's music hits, now I thought he was coming out to attack Ryback but instead he's just coming out for his match, Ryback gives him the stink eye and Mark eyes him cautiously and gives Ryback a wide birth. Simple but effective start for the build up to Mania's powerhouse match-up.

Henry squashed poor old Zack Ryder.

Swagger is up next to face Hacksaw as most predicted, Sarge and The American Dream come to the ring with him but there's no match, instead Swagger beats the 3 legends and real American's up, apparently Del Rio wasn't watching the show as he doesn't come out to help but attacks Swagger backstage.

The Rock and Cena are out next, I wasn't really paying attention but the gist is Cena must redeem himself, Rock did make an amusing, if ironic, Lance Armstrong joke.

The Shield cut a fantastic promo on Orton, Show and Sheamus, they talk about the fact they are undefeated and that those guys should be concerned with them, not facing Taker. Reigns tells Show he got a lucky punch in on SD and it wont happen again. I was really impressed with Rollins in this promo, he has grown very comfortable as a talker.

I'm honestly blurry on the running order of the next part of the show, there was a harmless segment with Honky and Brodus' crew against 3MB, comedy jobber extraordinaire Heath Slater gets a guitar shot from Honky post-loss and there is much dancing.

Dolph comes out to do his weekly jobbing routine, this time it's Miz he's losing too. Miz brings out Flair who does his shtick. I couldn't help thinking Flair was mentoring the wrong guy. The match was decent and the Flair/Langston exchange made me smile, the Miz and Flair celebration didn't.

Fandango has a second non-debut as they still can't pronounce his name right. I thought his mic work was pretty solid though and he did get some boos at least, his dancer valet looks legit as well.

Team Hell No vs the PTP happened again, this time with the Million Dollar Man at ringside as the PTP want to impress him into managing them, but they lose in a short match and Dibiase stuffs a Benjamin in Darren Young's mouth, Bryan then hilariously sneaks back to retrieve the $100 for himself.

Triple H is out next looking like a biker heavy from an early 90's Charlie Sheen movie, he really is a Samson case. He cuts a breathy promo that left me wondering if he wanted to fight Brock or fuck him. He talks about how badass he is and ends with a line that is from a movie but I just can't remember which one, it reminded me of that time he used the Eastwood line from Gran Torino.

Barrett vs Del Rio is up next, it's not as good as their recent SD match but it's ok, the IC champ is once again used as a jobber to a main eventer in a meaningless match. Swagger and Colter watched from the entrance way.

The New Age Outlaws vs Primo & Epico may have been the highlight of the show for me, those chords, Road Dogg's entertaining spiel and then a fun tag match in which the NAO looked great to cap it off.........New Age Outlaws vs Team Hell No at Mania?

There's a 90th Birthday celebration in the entrance way for Mae Young, she's escorted out by the Divas and Mark Henry breaks character to give his old flame a hug. Just as Mean Gene is getting things underway Punk's music hits and he swaggers out for the main event and spoils the celebration, Mae looks on obliviously.

The main event is ok, Punk wins it with a GTS on Orton but hardly does anything during the actual match. I thought it might have been booked to make Punk look strong but it was just a means to an end. Taker's music hits and he comes out to the entrance way again in his huge robes, the show ends with him and Punk staring at each other.

Overall a decent show with some fun nostalgia moments and progression on several match builds for Mania.

 

[SCP88]

@theeighties the only movie i remember the line HHH used was on is tombstone, where Wyatt slapped Billy Bob Thornton's character around

 

[DirtyD79]

It would have been nice to give it even more old school flavor by having Vince McMahon instead of Michael Cole alongside Jerry Lawler but I can understand Vince's reasons for not wanting to do it. As for the show itself I thought it was pretty decent. I just thought it was great watching CM Punk being a dick and walking straight through Mae Young's birthday celebration.

 

[Jack-Hammer]

Don't really have time for a full blown review this week.

All in all, last night's show was just plain solid all around. Taker returning and his match with CM Punk being made official worked just fine. They didn't give a lot away with them last night and that's fine.

I thought the Cena & Rock promo segment was great. I'm sooooooooooooo glad that both men were in serious mode last night. Cena wasn't trying to be all happy-go-lucky and The Rock wasn't popping any juvenile jokes. No "Fruity Pebbles" stuff or loosely veiled gay jokes. The fact that they haven't had a year to build this match as they did their first encounter means that they aren't spending a lot of time with the two of them simply trying to show up the other or just shamelessly pander to the fans. The match already feels like a big deal and both men delivered on the mic last night. I thought Triple H did a good job as well. It was simple, direct & straight to the point without overdoing it. Again, as with Punk & Taker, they didn't give a lot away here so there's a LOT of meat left on the bone.

It was nice to see the legends on Raw last night and, for me, I thought they made good use of them. They weren't the center of attention as they were in the first Old School Raw, but that's how it should be because there's just over a month left until WrestleMania. A throwaway show right now is unacceptable. Swagger got some good heat from beating up Duggan, Slaughter & Dusty Rhodes. I thought they might do something to make Swagger look bad but he looked ruthless, so it worked fine. The legends weren't all over the show dominating the segments. It probably didn't give some fans the nostalgia jones they were looking for but, as I said, it's WrestleMania season and the focus should be on that, not nostalgia.

As for the wrestling action, pretty solid stuff in my opinion. Ryback vs. Cesaro was okay, though I'm not wild with the US champ being used as fodder for Ryback again. I'd give it 2 stars. The nice tease for Ryback and Mark Henry was interesting following the match. I'd give the Miz vs. Ziggler was a good 2.75 star match. Say what you want to, but Miz is looking better in the ring than he's probably ever looked. He has a spring in his step and just feels more fluid. I wasn't wild about Ziggler losing again, so I'm personally hoping they have him wait until after WM to have him so he can regain his momentum. Team Hell No vs. the PTPs was a throwaway match, 1.5 stars. The New Age Outlaws vs. Primo & Epico was entertaining because of the NAO. The fans were chanting "you've still got it" and yes, frankly, they do. I give the match 2.25 stars just because of how good the Outlaws still are. The fourway main event was a good 3 star match that had good action and the right outcome with Punk scoring the clean win.

Last night's show wasn't as red hot as last week's, though I didn't expect it to be. I was also glad to see that last night's show was, however, better than I was expecting. I expected mostly a throwaway show dominated by nostalgia but, instead, we got solid storyline progression, solid wrestling action and solid build to WrestleMania.

I'd grade last night's Raw as a solid B.

 

[Papa Pillman]

I really thought night's Raw was almost a bad as last week's show was good.

Having the Undertaker come out at the beginning the way he did, I'm not really sure what it accomplished. We knew for sure he was there, So I guess there's that.

Punk's promo was great, then things got really stupid. After everything that went into HBK getting his second shot, after the big HHH/Taker point and staredown two years ago, after Taker's big return and attempts to repeat the scenario last year and then having to convince Hunter of taking the match, plus Shawn's involvement, the addition of the Cell etc. Last night paled in a way that was so lazy and amatuerish. Just having superstars saunter from the back with shitty and irrelevant reasons why they should be the ones to get the match and then having Vickie come out and randomly throw together a four-way to reward these guys with possibly the final chance to derail the phenom on the big stage?? It was unworthy of the type of match set-up that should be warranted at this point for that encounter. It left me with a roll my eyes, and bad taste in my mouth.

I liked the way that they transitioned quickly through matches throughout the rest of the first hour, but I hate the matches that were booked.

Why have Ryback dismantle Cesaro AGAIN? Henry gets an obvious squash against a glorified jobber at this point in Ryder(thats a complaint for another day, too much else to complain about right now with this show), Ryback should've been fed equal fodder. The only thing that worked in this transition was the "two ships passing" tease.
Cesaro/Ryback - 1.75 Stars
Henry/Ryder - Dud

The booking was shit for the next match as well. Why have Ziggler do this job to Miz again here? Literally have anyone else in that spot. You already are going to have "Nicky" job clean on Friday, why is it needed here as well? The briefcase is now a running joke. And I just can't get into the Miz/Flair combo. It doesn't fit at all. And Miz's struts looked like a Double-J impression not a Flair one. Color me unimpressed and disapointed. The match: 2.25 stars

Guess What? Then they got something right. The build to the biggest match at WM got rewarded with last night's best sement. Rock and Cena handled last night's exchange perfectly. And no corny bullshit was needed, hopefully they and the writer's remember that through the stretch-run to the event. But we know they won't. Loved the Lance Armstrong line by The Rock(I was shocked he still has a witty bone in his body).

Not sure about the Swagger v. Duggan match. I get that all three guys are synonomous with being American, but besides that, what's their connection? And why just have two standing at ringside? And why have Swagger squash these "American Icons" without Zeb getting the mic to run down what's not American about them? More confused shit booking. Slaughter and Duggan were both in improved condition physically though. No real match here, just the pre-requisite 2x4 beatdown. HOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!

It was nice to see Hell No wrestle with full faculties. But why book dissention, dissention, then last night perfect teamwork? Confused creative staff, that's why. And the PTP's got squashed again for no reason. Dibiase's presence was pointless, but the Bryan/Ben Franklin moment was funny. Wish the match had some relevance to something though. 1 Star

I had more problems with the 3MB/Brodus and Tensai segment. "Sweet T" did look better in the singlet. But why have Honky Tonk Man here? It created very awkward commentary with the King saying near nothing until a few sarcastic jabs at the close of the segment. Slater didn't get nearly the opportunity he should have to have an entertaining exchange with Honky Tonk either. The one save for the match? The guitar-shot, its nice to see one again, been a while without JJ running around TNA. Instant Roll-up. Dud

This Fandago, name pronunciation bit is gonna get old fast. I despise Josh Roberts more than any other breathing human being, BTW. Worst. Ring Announcer. Ever.

The Triple H segment? Last night further proves my opinion. 25-30% of the time Hunter is very entertaining on the mic, the other 70-75% he is the most boring, drawn-out, mind-numbing promo delivery guy that the business has ever seen. His 12-15 minute monologues are the wrestling equivilent to the proverbial drying of paint. I wanted to kick an infant.

Del Rio/Barrett; from the department of "as long as we're continuing to book our midcard champs to be squashed for no logical reason", here we went again. Even Swagger's presence was for naught. More shit booking. 2.25 Stars

I had no issues with the Outlaws vs. Epico/Primo. It was fun nostalgia. That's all it needed to be. It's nice to hear Road Dogg's shtick again(as long as its not on a regular basis). 1.5 Star match, much better than that as a segment though.

The four-way match was actually pretty good action despite the hotshotting of the set-up for what should be such an important "reward". I expected a Shield run-in that never came(the pre-tape promo segment from them earlier in the show was good though, as was this week's Zeb/Swagger mini). Punk getting the clean win was a nice surprise, and I typically always enjoy Orton having to take a clean pin against anyone, so that was a nice bonus. Match of the night all-around. 3 Stars

The final staredown felt anti-climactic.

Overall the show let almost all of last week's built momentum flounder on the table, without letting it die completely. Atleast the continued build to the biggest match at Mania was handled masterfully by Cena and Rock, that was the saving grace, even if the build to the next two biggest matches were handled in a way that left far more to be desired.

Hopefully they can pick things back-up next week, if Lesnar and Taker both show-up, those two respective match builds can try to get on the rails with some force.

 

[AhSpicyDrop]

I thought last night was pretty terrible for a "Road To Wrestleamnia" RAW... Don't get me wrong there were a few segments that were great, but for the most part it was a letdown. They should never have a gimmick style show on the road to Mania. It would have been better to have it a few weeks after Mania when they could have dedicated more time to the actual old school instead of just throwing them into random segments.

My biggest gripes:

-Jack Swagger beating up American heroes was kind of stupid... He would have gotten more heat if he beat up a Mexican star. If I was WWE I would have brought Mil Mascaras in and let Swagger rough Del Rio's uncle up a bit, which would have fueled the fire and made more sense when Del Rio attacked Swagger backstage for his actions... Did anybody really buy into Del Rio defending Duggan, Slaughter, or Rhodes.

-Fandango is more boring in person than on the vignettes, and sounds like a homosexual vampire when he speaks with the accent. He may turn around and be awesome, who knows? But the way they're presenting him now is just utter shit. They did a similar thing with Brodus Clay saying he was going to work this show and then he didn't, yadda yadda... I said last night in the live discussion they should have just brought The Disco Inferno in, because even being out of shape and older he could probably accomplish more in the WWE than this guy is going to. FAIIILLLLL-DON-GO! This dude is going to be in the Wrestlecrap hall of fame if they continue to book him like this. I really don't think a flexible chick with a nice rack can save this one either.

-The Rock is continuing to be dreadfully boring on the microphone. There's not even a feeling of excitement when he comes to the ring anymore. I don't know if that's a testament to the PG style WWE now works or what, but he just bores me. The only thing he's done since coming back that I've appreciated is kayfabe getting rid of that tacky spinning pile of shit they tried to put over as the WWE championship for years.

-A lot of my gripes last night had to do with the Undertaker. What point was there to bring him out at the beginning of the show if he wasn't going to do anything? Oh, what? The WWE universe had an idea he was going to show up? They thought he was going to be there for the past few weeks too. They should have just had Punk come out and challenge for the streak, and then continue on with the same path they had taken instead of ruining the Taker's return at the beginning. He still could have came out at the end for the staredown with Punk. Also, the Shield's promo pretty much killed the momentum of the main event EVEN though anyone with a brain already knew Punk was winning. You knew for 100% sure Punk was winning after the Shield's promo.
-----------------

On the flipside:

-Cena's promo last night was believable and made his segment with The Rock tolerable, because Rock certainly didn't bring anything new to the table. As much shit as John gets he can really tell a story on the mic when he's serious and seemingly motivated.

-Daniel Bryan stealing the $100 bill out of Darren Young's mouth was a minor gesture, but arguably the funniest moment of the entire night. It's the little things that seem to go the furthest these days.

-Miz/Ziggler match was awesome. Flair's exchange with Big E was great. Miz is much more tolerable as a face and despite the shit he gets I think he's becoming fairly competent at applying the figure-four. He's certainly no Greg Valentine or Ric Flair when it comes to the hold but if he continues to use it he'll add his own flair and style to it.

-Punk going over cleanly in the fatal four way instead of them having the Shield interfere and help him added some credibility to Punk's chances of ending Taker's streak. Him interrupting another birthday party was pretty god damn hilarious as well.

-WWE finally getting those edible underwear looking tights off of Tensai and putting him in similar garb to Brodus. I never thought the team would grow on me but I've been enjoying them more here lately. Tensai is showing some charisma, and I enjoyed the gravedigger he did last night after Honky played a tune on Slater's skull.