Nobody cheats anymore?

[AJ1981]

I've recently got into the podcasts of Steve Austin and Jim Ross and on both of their shows recently they have both questioned why heels don't seem to cheat in WWE anymore.
JR and Stone Cold have both said that they think it's almost impossible for heels in WWE to get heat because WWE doesn't seem to enforce rules in their matches anymore. Obviously wrestling is completely scripted but I can understand their point of view, why hate the heel because he hasn't cheated to win and why have sympathy for the babyface. On Austin's podcast this week he spoke to former referee Jimmy Korderas who used this week's IC tournament semi-final between Sheamus and Bad News Barrett as an example. All Barrett did to win the match was hit a bullhammer as Sheamus came through the ropes, he wasn't booked to cheat or do anything to build heat on himself and in the end it just made Sheamus look weak. Growing up I remember watcing Flair, The Horsemen, The Freebirds and many more cheating and being livid. Getting heat seems to have become a lost art. What do you guys think?

 

[Jack-Hammer]

I think the idea that heels don't seem to cheat anymore is a bit hyperbolic. The Wyatts, Ryback, Del Rio, Orton, Triple H, Lesnar, Swagger, Cesaro, etc. I mean....c'mon, they've cheated. I've watched them. Even The Shield has cheated a bit here and there. We saw Daniel Bryan spend more than half a year getting fucked out of the title

The thing, however, is look what happens when a heel does cheat his ass off to win. Threads pop up all over the forums saying that they're making the heel "look weak" because he cheated to win. If a heel champion cheats to retain the title, he gets labeled a weak "paper champion" by the dirtsheet writers, fans who particularly hate the wrestler in question, those who jump on the bandwagon because they think it's edgy to do so, etc. If Bray Wyatt would've gotten the win over Cena at WrestleMania XXX and cheated to do so, the response from a lot of people would be something like "Wyatt winning meant nothing because he had to have help to do it" or "WWE makes another heel look weak against Super Cena."

 

[lil steroid meat]

Be careful what you ask for.

While I agree that a heel cheating could be used as a tool to get somebody some heel heat, you don't want to rely on it too much, or you'll end up with a Magnus in TNA type situation where he needs 15 dudes to retain the title.

I think the character itself should be where the majority of a wrestler's face or heel reaction comes from.

 

[DarksideEric]

The thing, however, is look what happens when a heel does cheat his ass off to win. Threads pop up all over the forums saying that they're making the heel "look weak" because he cheated to win. If a heel champion cheats to retain the title, he gets labeled a weak "paper champion" by the dirtsheet writers, fans who particularly hate the wrestler in question, those who jump on the bandwagon because they think it's edgy to do so, etc. If Bray Wyatt would've gotten the win over Cena at WrestleMania XXX and cheated to do so, the response from a lot of people would be something like "Wyatt winning meant nothing because he had to have help to do it" or "WWE makes another heel look weak against Super Cena."

There's a difference, I think, between heels cheat by having someone say, grab their opponent's leg from outside of the ring, using a title as a weapon behind the ref's back or a single guy coming in and hitting their finisher and having multiple people, in multiple matches, basically win the match for you.

Magnus, fo example, was "weak" and a "paper champion" because many of his matches included people numbering into the double digits for him to win.

 

[TheICChampion]

While I do think heels need to cheat a little more often, it seems as though there has to be just the right balance. You don't cheat enough and sometimes it's hard to get over as a heel. Cheat too much and people think you're weak, you can't get a win without cheating, etc., and it's hard to gain momentum as a credible threat to certain faces. Especially in this day and age. Everyone's a critic, and a lot of people just jump on one bandwagon or another for no reason other than it's what everyone else is doing. If everyone has made up their mind that they just don't like you anymore (See: John Cena) it's not gonna matter what you do, they still say you suck. Now, some may have a legit reason for not caring anymore, others are just sheep and they follow the crowd. If that happens, good luck getting the momentum you need to get over, regardless of being face or heel, not cheating enough or cheating too much.

 

[Alucard316]

While I do think heels need to cheat a little more often, it seems as though there has to be just the right balance. You don't cheat enough and sometimes it's hard to get over as a heel. Cheat too much and people think you're weak, you can't get a win without cheating, etc., and it's hard to gain momentum as a credible threat to certain faces. Especially in this day and age. Everyone's a critic, and a lot of people just jump on one bandwagon or another for no reason other than it's what everyone else is doing. If everyone has made up their mind that they just don't like you anymore (See: John Cena) it's not gonna matter what you do, they still say you suck. Now, some may have a legit reason for not caring anymore, others are just sheep and they follow the crowd. If that happens, good luck getting the momentum you need to get over, regardless of being face or heel, not cheating enough or cheating too much.

You hit the key phrase there: "Right Balance." For me, the right balance when it comes to cheating differs from situation to situation. I believe that it has a lot to do with just whom the heel is facing. For example, if a main event heel is facing a mid-card face then the heel shouldn't need to cheat to win. This whole conversation reminds me of the difference between The Miz's late 2010 and Punk's late 2012. They both had problems with Jerry Lawler. Miz had to have help from Alex Reilly and Michael Cole to defeat a retired wrestler now turned commentator who is in his 60's in a TLC match. Remember that? Now, fast forward two years and Punk faces Lawler in a steel cage match. He doesn't use help or anything. He just brutalizes the like I said 60 something year old retired wrestler turned commentator. Miz came off looking weak while Punk came off looking like he should have been ashamed of what he did, but he doesn't because he's a prick.

I know a lot of people have mentioned Brock Lesnar when discussing this topic, but from a physical standpoint, he doesn't need to cheat. He's a monster heel that just dominates you and just for fun continues to kill you after the match. Basically, he's a bully. If Brock were to face Daniel Bryan, I wouldn't expect Brock to need to cheat to win. That's the one thing about that Brock-Punk match from SummerSlam. Punk really had that match won twice if not for Heyman, so Brock actually need help to win that match.

 

[bittermang]

I blame that string of three or four PPVs where HHH kept the belt via DQ finish, usually by hitting someone with a hammer. I believe overuse, and the rise + fall of the hardcore Memphis/ECW style, has led to heels that are just jerks and occasional liars, but not often cheats.

Really think about it. When was the last time you saw someone pull a chain out of their boot? Get slipped the belt by a manager? Hell, throw a chair or two. Now they have increased their overall brutality, doing more with the barricade, and selling massive attacks with the steps. But where's the powder in the eye? The poison Asian mist? The low blow behind a referee's back? Damien Sandow should start carrying a pocket watch on a chain that he starts slugging people with, and he can use it to check the time occasionally.

But I think it just fell out of fashion because heels went to that well too often too long, and people just felt it a cheap way out of the match.

 

[Kris Benwa]

I agree. I've listened to both their podcasts and Talk is Jericho religiously and the point is there. Heels aren't doing anything really heelish. I agree that with Lesnar he doesn't need to cheat because he's Brock Lesnar and in a shoot he'd beat damn near everyone in the locker room so it's believable. It's why heels can't keep heat on them they aren't cheating. Triple H and Stephanie really are the only heels who get heat because they screwed over (the) top baby face repeatedly and they weren't afraid to use dastardly deeds to screw him over, among other things. All the heels want to be the badass heel that just talks down to the other wrestler and hen beat them clean that doesn't make any sense. It makes your face look weak and it's why people cheer because they really aren't doing anything bad.

When you get to Jake the Snake's episode, he brings up that heels don't cower away from the face anymore either. That is a very good point and it goes with the all the heels want to be the badass again. I think if you saw some of these heels maybe distract the ref then they hit a low blow and roll up to win, or maybe pull out some brass knucks or something here or there a lot more heels would get boos instead of cheers. I also think it has a lot to do with their not being many feuds either though. All the matches seem to be willy nilly. I think they could have gone somewhere with the Sheamus and Christian feud for example. Sheamus was beating Christian every week I have no doubt that in the big match Christian would have cheated or done something else dastardly to win the match and gotten boo'd because the face was close to beating him again. In the end I definitely concur that heels aren't cheating enough, not cowering away enough, trying to be badasses and it's not getting them any real heat. Look at the crowd reactions of any heels besides Triple H and Stephanie and you'll see. I want to say Wyatt but I also want to contribute that to who he's working with. I also agree that there needs to be a balance and not every heel needs this though. Lesnar, Kane, Evolution, etc don't need to because of who their opponents are, and because their beat downs and what not are their dastardly deeds.

 

[IT Factor]

I tend to agree with Austin as you don't see the art of being a heel anymore. You see people that are forced down the "WWE Universe" without actually being wanted. You see faces that were once on NXT going straight into WWE without any real build or character. When cheating is utilized, it is used to get cheap heat and not because a character is doing it to advance a story. You no longer see true heels who cheat because they simply outsmart the babyface and get the crowd's hatred. Maybe it is because WWE doesn't have characters who tell in-ring stories anymore. You simply have "WWE Superstars" who are soap opera rip-offs and not true students of the WRESTLING business. And it was doomed to happen the second WWE wanted to take anything wrestling related out of their product...

 

[King502]

Well I agree heels need to cheat more one heel in particular would be randy orton he needs to be the dirtiest player in the game like low blows brass knucks chair shots foot on ropes beating someone dOwn and not stoping on the refs five count and perhaps beat up the ref

 

[The Eighties]

WWE can't win, for the longest time the biggest issue was lame, cheating heels, basically guys that weren't actually a threat to the faces because they couldn't really win a match. Now things are going the other way and it's apparently hurting their heat.

I'm not actually sure that cheating gets a heel heat these days anyway, maybe with the kiddies but not the older fans. If a heel cheats with a weapon or hooking the tights/foot on ropes pins it probably just makes them cool in the eyes of many, if they have the multiple run-ins it makes them lame. I actually think the biggest enemy to heel heat these days is that being PG limits how despicable a heel can be during the build up to the match, but as Triple H and Kane have shown with their recent beat downs of Bryan it is not impossible. Of course the other factor hurting heels is that so few faces are actually over enough to get heat on.

I think the amount of clean heel wins we are seeing these days fits with the recent story about WWE doing away with the concept of faces and heels, maybe not entirely but certainly to the point where it wont be Disney levels of good vs evil anymore. The Cena/Wyatt angle is a great example of WWE being ambiguous in regards to where fan support is going and how they are not trying to force it in any direction, and looking at the way The Shield were booked tonight on Smackdown WWE will be giving their faces more edge going forward as they came off like Austin in being faces that act like heels.

 

[GeneralKarim]

There should be balance for sure. Most heel nowadays get cheered because they are badasses and are more edgier than the clean cut face that smiles and panders to the fans constantly. It's why movies these days have the protagonist always have more of an edge and the theme of the movie always is a bit more darker than 10 years ago for example.

Only in WWE its not the faces that get edgier and darker and "badasser" it's the heels.

Faces in WWE need to evolve and heels need be heels.

The only heel that I would actually boo, is Heyman. The man really knows how to work the mic. Hell I feel like booing him the first moment he starts with "My name is Paaul HeYYman". The only other heel in recent times that people were genuinely booing was Damien Sandow but they fucked him over for no good reason.

Another problem is that WWE is sponsored by an infinite amount of companies and watched by so many people that it's hard for a heel to do something without someone getting offended like a little bitch. Example DB chocked the-ring announcer with a tie, that's a nice and something u dont see everyday, while the rest of nexus were just fucking around stuff. What happened? Fired.

Jericho did the classic heel stuff and stomped on the Brazilian flag (If I'm not mistaken ) and the "whole country" was in uproar and he had to apologize. Well how can a heel risk doing cool and edgy shit if there's a highly sensitive manchild at every corner just waiting to say his piece about what offended him that night.

Its just a combination of our current culture and what you are allowed to do. Everybody likes the badasses, the guy that is more darker and has an edge to him. So when a heel comes in all badass and such with a good moveset and good micskills and barely does heel-ish things besides say " 'insert random city' sucks " or something to that effect of course the crowd is gonna start getting behind him, if not the kids at least the men, and the chicks. I mean Roman Reigns can be as heel-ish as he wants, chicks are gonna cheer him no matter what.

Now that I think about it, it's also about weak feuds. I mean, did anyone really care whether the Wyatts were faces or heels or if the Shield were faces or heels when they both faced off? People were screaming every show that "This is awesome" cause they knew these guys can put on a clinic. If its not a top end feud, like Bryan vs Triple H, the feuds are so weak and badly built that the heel is never in a position to do stuff that Triple H did to Bryan or something remotely similar.

Look at all the mid-card feuds and the tag-team feuds. Nothing happens. Random match after random match. Even the upper-mid card sometimes suffer from this like Sheamus feuds or Alberto feuds.

It's about booking, image, and what the higher-ups allow you to do.