Int'l Region, Third Round, Ult. Submission Match:(1)Ric Flair vs.(9)Ultimate Warrior

[klunderbunker]

Well it's true. You do learn something every day. Today I learned that the boards 'expert' gets real personal when his opinion is challenged.

I'd respond in kind, but something tells me if I did, I'd end up in the prison. So I'll rise above.



Nope. You just had to keep reading.




That actually isn't what I said at all.

My challenge to this "Warrior wouldn't quit" theme is that he rarely ever was put in a situation where that was tested. You agreed with that... you just have different reasoning as to why.

I never once said that he'd give up as soon as he got into trouble. Please do not put words into my mouth to make your argument.

And I hate to break it to you... but my understanding of wrestling is just fine, and quite a few people around here tend to agree with that.

I'm three quotes into this response and I'm still waiting for a reason to vote for Flair over Warrior. Can you get to the point please?

So common sense is that he obviously would never submit? Because all I said was we don't know because he was never tested that much in this regard.

If you want to stick with this "well we just don't know!" theme, I'd advise you to find something else to do as it has never and probably will never hold up here. I'm sorry for making you try to think a bit but you need to keep up.

I think this is where I give myself a couple points by using your cop out response.

Now I know you need to give up if you're stealing my lame lines.

I'm curious. Is the majority of your Flair experience from about 1990 on? Because it seems that way based off of your response here, and I've gotta say you really missed out then.

Oh I assure you've I've seen quite a bit of Flair. None of which would win an ultimate submission match over Ultimate Warrior.

Because you're really just describing Flair from after his peak. When he was mid-40's into his late 50's, and he wasn't even close to being the same performer he was in the 80's. You yourself mentioned that we should consider all competitors here to be in their peaks. It would help if you held yourself to that same standard. Then again, it would also help your arguments if you avoided the blatant overexagurations like saying Flair had roughly 8000 losses to Hogan. I'm sure you're well aware that it was really a fraction of that.

I'm now being held to saying Flair lost to Hogan 8,000 times. Oh this is a fun one.

Keeping with kayfabe though... we're talking about a guy that spent his career always finding a way to come out on top. When he got knocked down, it never lasted for long and he'd quickly find a way to return to the top. That's smart.

Actually we're talking about a guy that lost the World Title 16 times. THat doesn't sound too bright.

Indian Death Lock. Boston Crab. Half Crab. Abdominal Stretch. Sleeper.

I actually had to pause for a minute on this for the sake of a chuckle.

Your argument is now that Ric Flair is going to make Ultimate Warrior submit to a Boston crab or an abdominal stretch. As in the Ultimate Warrior that kicked out of Hogan's leg drop and beat Andre the Giant in 30 seconds. THAT GUY is going to tap out to a half crab?

You know, I was having a rough day and this alone made it less rough.

I have to ask... are you intentionally misunderstanding everything I write? I said in the context of the actual match in question. The match that you yourself picked for these two.

No. You're just really bad at this.

In a standard match, none of the mentioned ever submit to the figure four. In an 'ultimate submission' match? Yeah that becomes a key part of the story.

No, no it really doesn't.

You wanted me to give you a laugh? Sorry, but this is where you gave me one.

You're the expert on these forums.

Oh why I do declare. Thank you kind sir.

But you don't understand how Flair would use nefarious means to target a specific limb of his opponent to make his submission more effective? When this was a tactic Flair used in the majority of his matches?

Almost all the time. I'm failing to come up with more than a handful of times when it actually worked but he got points for trying. Points won't help him here though.

Because if you think that what you wrote is how it would happen? Maybe I'm not the one that doesn't understand wrestling.

This coming from the "WARRIOR COULD SUBMIT TO AN ABDOMINAL STRETCH! HE SO TOTALLY COULD BECAUSE RIC FLAIR USED IT LIKE TWICE!" mind?

When I started in this thread, Warrior was beating Flair about 20-10. Now he's within 2 votes of tying it up. He was further back when you wrote this to me. I've been getting green repped quite a bit in this tournament. I've been able to sway matchups into my favor in the past.

Now that's just funny. Go ahead. Continue to inflate thine own ego.

If that's being really, really bad at this? Then it sucks what you're saying about a lot of the participants here.

How many of them have Flair over Warrior with the half crab of extreme discomfort? Those people would indeed be really, really bad at this.

 

[klunderbunker]

Savage lost the world title to Flair and his leglock.

This is actually true and I had forgotten about that one. However, Savage was banged up coming in and he passed out instead of submitting. Flair did win the fall that way but it wasn't on an even playing field coming in.

 

[George Steele's Barber]

Wrestlemania V.

Warrior throws Rick Rude into the buckles over and over, hits him in the back several times and then slaps on a bearhug. As Ventura said, Rude only survived because of the great core strength he had built up over the years. Warrior is smarter than people give him credit for.

As much as I am impressed you can pull that history out it makes Warrior sound that much more stupid . Warrior was stupid enough to try and go after Rude with a move that hits the back and core. Rick Rude was all lats, abs, and porn stache. A smart wrestler works the legs on him. Maybe they hit him with a sleeper or something that bends the lower back but a bear hug is foolish. Not only was Rude's core ripped but it was also small which would take away the amount of pressure Warrior could apply.

Warrior was not talented enough in the ring to be booked in this type of match. It is begging for disaster. Just do the right thing and put Flair through.

 

[klunderbunker]

As much as I am impressed you can pull that history out it makes Warrior sound that much more stupid . Warrior was stupid enough to try and go after Rude with a move that hits the back and core. Rick Rude was all lats, abs, and porn stache. A smart wrestler works the legs on him. Maybe they hit him with a sleeper or something that bends the lower back but a bear hug is foolish. Not only was Rude's core ripped but it was also small which would take away the amount of pressure Warrior could apply.

Warrior was not talented enough in the ring to be booked in this type of match. It is begging for disaster. Just do the right thing and put Flair through.

True, Warrior probably should have gone for the legs, but it might have been a disaster had he tried. If nothing else, Warrior knew how to keep it simple. He never had a deep offense, so why not just pick someone and squeeze the life out of them? It would work against 99% of other opponents, including Flair. Besides, the reverse would be true here: Ric has always had a bad back so the hold would be more effective.

 

[Poop Master Flex]

The thing here is Warrior actually needs to give up in order to lose and Warrior just don't give up and I don't see that changing here.

This isn't one of those matches where Flair can eek out a few DQ wins or a fluke pin, he has to make Warrior tap and much like anyone else in the tournament he can't, it's really that simple.

The majority of the time I would take Flair but I can't in good conscious take him in this match because I see no scenario where he beats Warrior here. Even with Warriors lack of submission skills I'm sure he could whip out a Torture Rack or something to get a fall and that's all he would need. Flair might be greater but there are scenario's where Flair would tap and quite frankly a guy like Warrior is exactly the type of guy Flair would go down to.

Vote Warrior.

 

[Tastycles]

Warrior had a nice little prime where Vince took a shot and then gave up on the guy almost over night. The reminder of this tournament deserves better than that. May as well include Umaga if you are going to focus so much on primes.

It's not the same as like a 3 month monster heel run, it's someone who was incredibly dominant.

Warrior debuted in 1987 and was pretty much unbeaten until 1991. His most noteworthy wins were against Hulk Hogan and Randy Savage.

Umaga debuted in 2006 and was released in 2009. He lost far more matches than he won. With the exception of Jeff Hardy and CM Punk, who both beat him a lot more times than lost to him, he never really beat any main eventers.

That's not the same.

 

[JJYanks121]

Kb, don't let the silly arguments get you down. Quite honestly, it's funny to see someone suggest that his influence on votes is so grand and that's a reason to believe his bad arguments. That's like cheating on your wife and asking other cheaters if you do the right thing. Yeah, you have the approval of people but it doesn't make you or any of them right.

What's right is that not one person has explained how a guy that never submits will somehow do so now. He won't and that's the only answer here.

 

[#tamale]

This is actually true and I had forgotten about that one. However, Savage was banged up coming in and he passed out instead of submitting. Flair did win the fall that way but it wasn't on an even playing field coming in.

Also, let us not forget the constant attempts at interference by Mr. Perfect, and Razor Ramon viciously kicking Savage's bad leg.

What's right is that not one person has explained how a guy that never submits will somehow do so now. He won't and that's the only answer here.

Plus there is the argument that Warrior does not know any submission holds, but that doesn't hold up because there is a precedent. Warrior doesn't necessarily need to use a submission hold to make Flair quit. Cena made JBL and Batista quit by beating them senseless and threatening to not stop the beating (thanks to KB for clarifying that for me).

 

[MrMojoRisin]

I'm three quotes into this response and I'm still waiting for a reason to vote for Flair over Warrior. Can you get to the point please?

You should have checked back a few pages first. I did that a while ago.

If you want to stick with this "well we just don't know!" theme, I'd advise you to find something else to do as it has never and probably will never hold up here. I'm sorry for making you try to think a bit but you need to keep up.

Hehe and people have said I'm condescending.

I've given quite a few 'themes' here. Sorry if you've been having a hard time keeping up with them all in this thread.

Now I know you need to give up if you're stealing my lame lines.

At least you can admit it.

Oh I assure you've I've seen quite a bit of Flair. None of which would win an ultimate submission match over Ultimate Warrior.

Have you though? Considering everything you've said describing him is post 1990 Ric Flair, I have to wonder.

I'm now being held to saying Flair lost to Hogan 8,000 times. Oh this is a fun one.

No. Just point out some more of your lame lines.

Actually we're talking about a guy that lost the World Title 16 times. THat doesn't sound too bright.

I get it now. You don't like Ric Flair.

That's all you had to say.

I actually had to pause for a minute on this for the sake of a chuckle.

Your argument is now that Ric Flair is going to make Ultimate Warrior submit to a Boston crab or an abdominal stretch. As in the Ultimate Warrior that kicked out of Hogan's leg drop and beat Andre the Giant in 30 seconds. THAT GUY is going to tap out to a half crab?

You know, I was having a rough day and this alone made it less rough.

Sorry you're having a rough day. Hopefully that explains why you're such a complete ass in this thread.

Funny thing though... you just hit on arguably the biggest issue with this tournament you do here. You look at holds like those with modern eyes and don't see them as holds that were impactful.

Thing is though, when Flair used a wider repertoire like that... they were holds that could and did frequently end matches.

To be completely fair in something like this, you can't look at holds through 2015 eyes. You have to look at them how they were for the person using them. Otherwise, why even include any older guys? Dory Funk lost the NWA title to a suplex. Guy must have been a bum, and everyone he beat must have been a bigger bum.

That seems to be the logic you're going with while sticking to your complete kayfabe mentality.

Maybe this line of thinking is why Austin seems to always win this damn thing?

Almost all the time. I'm failing to come up with more than a handful of times when it actually worked but he got points for trying. Points won't help him here though.

Again, it really seems like the majority of Flair matches you've watched are post 1990.

This coming from the "WARRIOR COULD SUBMIT TO AN ABDOMINAL STRETCH! HE SO TOTALLY COULD BECAUSE RIC FLAIR USED IT LIKE TWICE!" mind?

This is where your reading comprehension really needs to get some work. I never said Warrior would submit to that hold. You just asked for other submissions Flair would use, and I simply started listing off examples.

Now that's just funny. Go ahead. Continue to inflate thine own ego.

That's ok. You seem to do a better job of that than I ever could.

How many of them have Flair over Warrior with the half crab of extreme discomfort? Those people would indeed be really, really bad at this.

You would be surprised.

 

[Con T.]

What's right is that not one person has explained how a guy that never submits will somehow do so now. He won't and that's the only answer here.

If you're arguing kayfabe, then this isn't a bad answer.

You know who else has never submitted in his career? Yokozuna.

I trust you and KB voted Yokozuna against Misawa in their submission match?

 

[klunderbunker]

You should have checked back a few pages first. I did that a while ago.




Hehe and people have said I'm condescending.

I've given quite a few 'themes' here. Sorry if you've been having a hard time keeping up with them all in this thread.




At least you can admit it.



Have you though? Considering everything you've said describing him is post 1990 Ric Flair, I have to wonder.



No. Just point out some more of your lame lines.



I get it now. You don't like Ric Flair.

That's all you had to say.




Sorry you're having a rough day. Hopefully that explains why you're such a complete ass in this thread.

Funny thing though... you just hit on arguably the biggest issue with this tournament you do here. You look at holds like those with modern eyes and don't see them as holds that were impactful.

Thing is though, when Flair used a wider repertoire like that... they were holds that could and did frequently end matches.

To be completely fair in something like this, you can't look at holds through 2015 eyes. You have to look at them how they were for the person using them. Otherwise, why even include any older guys? Dory Funk lost the NWA title to a suplex. Guy must have been a bum, and everyone he beat must have been a bigger bum.

That seems to be the logic you're going with while sticking to your complete kayfabe mentality.

Maybe this line of thinking is why Austin seems to always win this damn thing?






Again, it really seems like the majority of Flair matches you've watched are post 1990.




This is where your reading comprehension really needs to get some work. I never said Warrior would submit to that hold. You just asked for other submissions Flair would use, and I simply started listing off examples.





That's ok. You seem to do a better job of that than I ever could.



You would be surprised.

Given that most of this is you failing at taking jabs at me, let's sum this up so I don't waste more of my time explaining why you're wrong.

1. I don't dislike Flair. He's gotten a bad draw.

2. You actually think Flair would actually make him submit to something like an abdominal stretch.

3. #2 is laughable.

4. I'm a condescending dick. That's nothing new.

5. There is an argument for Flair, but you're really bad at making one.

Overall this should go to Warrior as he doesn't submit and knows enough basic holds to use with his pure power to make Flair give up at least once. Flair would likely try to put on the figure four and Warrior would either turn it over or power out of it. It's not the kind of match Flair would have success in, because he's just not going to be able to make Warrior give up. It's not in Warrior's nature to submit and he's not going to here.

If you're arguing kayfabe, then this isn't a bad answer.

You know who else has never submitted in his career? Yokozuna.

I trust you and KB voted Yokozuna against Misawa in their submission match?

Neither of us did actually. In case you didn't know, you can see who voted for whom by clicking the number of votes.

 

[Con T.]

Neither of us did actually. In case you didn't know, you can see who voted for whom by clicking the number of votes.

Very well then; so, what makes Warrior's case any different from Yokozuna's?

The main argument (at least kayfabe) is that Warrior never submit, in his career. Neither has Yokozuna. Not once, not to anyone. So how important, really, is this whole argument that Warrior has never submit?

 

[MrMojoRisin]

Kb, don't let the silly arguments get you down. Quite honestly, it's funny to see someone suggest that his influence on votes is so grand and that's a reason to believe his bad arguments. That's like cheating on your wife and asking other cheaters if you do the right thing. Yeah, you have the approval of people but it doesn't make you or any of them right.

What's right is that not one person has explained how a guy that never submits will somehow do so now. He won't and that's the only answer here.

This is too bad. I was actually going to give you credit for actually coming up with a logical way that Warrior could win this match (Flair conceding an early submission, then never being able to get it back)...

then you wrote this.

I've actually explained how someone who 'never submits' would. More than once in fact. I invite you to go back and read the thread.

I'd just love to hear a logical explanation why a guy who's perseverance when put into a submission became so renowned around here... when he was hardly ever put into that situation.

It's just such a ridiculous argument. He never submitted because he was never tested like that (in kayfabe... in real life he never submitted because why the hell would they want the guy they're pushing as their next face of the company losing by submission?) Not because he was some guy with an iron will who would have rather died before surrendering... like he's been portrayed by his supporters here.

Besides, if you look at all the guys involved in this tournament in the context of their own careers and gimmicks... it gets harder and harder to hold to these kayfabe arguments. Goldberg's gimmick was he never lost. Same with Andre. Why is Golberg gone and why has Andre never won? Hogan's gimmick was he always beat the foreign monster heel. Why did he lose to one? When we get to the later round and get all the guys who never lost matched up with each other, how do any of them actually lose?

I get that's why the stipulation matches come in, but we're putting Warrior over based on a criteria that wasn't even a part of his character. Like I said at the top, at least your scenario is a way that Warrior could win. Mine is another way (again, I invite you to actually read the thread, I've said it more than once). Neither is ridiculous. Neither is a 'bad argument'. To me, the only bad argument being used here is the one where he couldn't possibly lose because he never submitted... because like I've said repeatedly... that just wasn't a thing with him, and just wasn't a thing his opponents even tried on him. If he'd ever had one match where the story was that he wouldn't submit and he didn't... then I'd concede this argument immediately.

 

[klunderbunker]

Very well then; so, what makes Warrior's case any different from Yokozuna's?

The main argument (at least kayfabe) is that Warrior never submit, in his career. Neither has Yokozuna. Not once, not to anyone. So how important, really, is this whole argument that Warrior has never submit?

Not for me. There's a big difference in Misawa vs. Yokozuna: if Misawa can get him on his back and just start cranking on a leg, he could make Yokozuna submit. I see it as Yokozuna being someone who never did submit vs. Warrior being someone who never would submit. It's been proven that a man of average size can have Yokozuna in a submission hold (Bret at Wrestlemania IX) and that Yokozuna can do harm to himself by missing a big move (Wrestlemania X and the 1996 Summerslam pre-show). Misawa could capitalize on errors like that and outlast Yokozuna.

Also, the time limit plays a role. Misawa has to outlast Yokozuna no matter how long it lasts. The Ultimate Submission match puts Flair on the clock: he has to make Warrior submit in that amount of time. I would see Flair submitting a lot faster than Warrior would, as Flair has a much longer history of submitting than Warrior does.

 

[Con T.]

Then, it seems like we're giving Warrior the benefit of the doubt that we aren't necessarily doling out fairly. Yoko stayed in that sharpshooter for some time, and never quit. I'm not arguing the logic, I voted Warrior, too. More arguing the consistency of the argument, and the idea that we're penalizing someone (Yokozuna) for something we think he'd do, while Warrior is getting credit for something we've never seen him do.

 

[MrMojoRisin]

Given that most of this is you failing at taking jabs at me, let's sum this up so I don't waste more of my time explaining why you're wrong.

True. That's what happens when I'm responding to someone failing to take jabs at me.

1. I don't dislike Flair. He's gotten a bad draw.

Doesn't seem that way. It's ok though. You can be honest about that.

2. You actually think Flair would actually make him submit to something like an abdominal stretch.

Do you need someone to teach you how to read?

I'm serious. I'm not sure you can.

4. I'm a condescending dick. That's nothing new.

At least you're aware of it.

5. There is an argument for Flair, but you're really bad at making one.

I already made a good one. You just never read it... maybe someone could read it to you though?

Overall this should go to Warrior as he doesn't submit and knows enough basic holds to use with his pure power to make Flair give up at least once. Flair would likely try to put on the figure four and Warrior would either turn it over or power out of it. It's not the kind of match Flair would have success in, because he's just not going to be able to make Warrior give up. It's not in Warrior's nature to submit and he's not going to here.

Nope. Overall this should go to Flair because he would take advantage of the rules of the match, injure Warrior's leg early with a combination of a cheap shot, interference from the Horsemen, and experience to take full advantage of that injury. Warrior would concede the fall understanding he still had a long ways to go in the match, fight valiantly, but not be able to catch up with Flair and get a hold of him long enough to even the score. When he finally gets him and looks like he's about to tie it, the bell goes and saves the dirtiest player in the game.

Neither of us did actually. In case you didn't know, you can see who voted for whom by clicking the number of votes.

I gotta agree. Kinda seems hypocritical to not use the same criteria to put Yoko over that you're using for Warrior.

 

[klunderbunker]

Then, it seems like we're giving Warrior the benefit of the doubt that we aren't necessarily doling out fairly. Yoko stayed in that sharpshooter for some time, and never quit. I'm not arguing the logic, I voted Warrior, too. More arguing the consistency of the argument, and the idea that we're penalizing someone (Yokozuna) for something we think he'd do, while Warrior is getting credit for something we've never seen him do.

That goes back to what Mr. half crab said in here: the whole thing is based on a hypothetical situation. Falling back on "well we don't know what would happen" isn't going to make for anything interesting here. Based on what I've seen, Yokozuna could submit but Warrior probably wouldn't. That's pretty much what I see happening in either. That and Yokozuna getting knocked down and not being able to get up.

 

[Tastycles]

I get that's why the stipulation matches come in, but we're putting Warrior over based on a criteria that wasn't even a part of his character. Like I said at the top, at least your scenario is a way that Warrior could win. Mine is another way (again, I invite you to actually read the thread, I've said it more than once). Neither is ridiculous. Neither is a 'bad argument'. To me, the only bad argument being used here is the one where he couldn't possibly lose because he never submitted... because like I've said repeatedly... that just wasn't a thing with him, and just wasn't a thing his opponents even tried on him. If he'd ever had one match where the story was that he wouldn't submit and he didn't... then I'd concede this argument immediately.

I sort of see where you are coming from now. In terms of the not quitting, I think people are extrapolating the fact that no massive star faces ever submit, and he was one such wrestler.

What I can show you is people trying submission moves on Warrior and getting absolutely nowhere.

Full Nelson was Hercules' finisher, but before he can get it locked in, Warrior powers out of it at about 5:15.


This is when he was well past it, but he still does it. At 2:30 Owen Hart tries to put Warrior in a sharpshooter. Warrior powers out of it.


These aren't crappy rest holds, they're the finishing manoeuvres that won countless matches, and Warrior powers out of them practically before you've noticed them being applied.

Incidentally, I did vote for Yokozuna.

 

[ServantofTwilight]

Let's think about this for a minute.

We have someone who doesn't submit to anything vs. someone who has submitted to people like Finlay and Jay Lethal, has submitted to Sting roughly 18,000 times and has lost a World Title by submission. Warrior may not be the best submission guy in the world, but if he throws a bearhug or something similar on Flair, you could very easily hear Flair give up. If Warrior can last the rest of the match, he'd be fine.

If nothing else, what would stop Flair from submitting early, thinking he could always come back later? He may well be the most overconfident wrestler of all time with the constant running to the top rope with a success rate of about 2% or the Figure Four against top names with a slightly lower success rate. Yeah Flair is a guy who has had success with submissions, but Warrior isn't your normal opponent. This would be like Hulk Hogan submitting to the Figure Four. It may seem like something Flair should be able to do with ease, but he never could pull it off.

I'd actually go with Warrior here. The guy just doesn't submit and Flair has a very, very bad record making people like Warrior submit.

People are going to see "Ultimate Submission" and automatically vote Flair, but he would lose this match. Warrior has never submitted. Flair gave up all the time. Warrior was dominant and rarely lost. Flair is one of the greatest performers of all time but lost quite frequently to guys like Hulk Hogan and Sting who happen to be close comparisons to Warrior.

Is Warrior a submission specialist? No. Does he need to be to win this match? Fuck no. One scenario I could easily see happening in this kayfabe match is Warrior wears Flair down with his power and eventually takes him out with a bear hug or some similar power submission.

Warrior wins.

Despite the stipulation in this match, and I can't believe I'm saying this, Warrior would still go over.

During the Ultimate Warrior's initial and significant run he was unstoppable. To my knowledge the man has never been made to submit. Cue to Flair who has tapped out more than any other main event star I can think of. The man has tapped to Sting, Bret Hart, Jericho, Angle, Jay Lethal(I mean come on, Jay Lethal), and others. I know that we don't really think of Warrior as a submission type, however, I'm sure the man knew a few wrestling holds. Hell, Warrior might make Flair submit just by simply reversing the Figure Four, because there's no way in hell that Flair would be able to stop Warrior from over powering him. Also, there's the bear hug that we've seen Warrior use that could force Flair to submit.

I know that many want to see Flair move on, however, it's just not in the cards this time.

Vote Warrior.

None of these submissions happened in Flair's prime which was arguably 82-89. Anyone using these as reasons for flair losing should not have their vote counted.

He didn't have any submission losses in the WWE. He had almost no losses period.

Remember this later when Warrior faces The Rock.

This is actually true and I had forgotten about that one. However, Savage was banged up coming in and he passed out instead of submitting. Flair did win the fall that way but it wasn't on an even playing field coming in.

So what. Still won. And he has used the Figure Four to take titles off of Dusty Rhodes, Barry Windham and Sting. Not all by submission but by weakening the legs. He has used it to beat the likes of Magnum TA, Roddy Piper, Nikita Kololf, Rhodes, The Road Warriors, The Von Erichs, The Garvins, Bobby Eaton, Tiger Mask etc etc. Fact is that in his prime Flair's Figure Four was a devastating hold. Hell, how many people did he make submit during his win streak right before Micheals retired him? Past his prime.

Now the question is can he make the Warrior submit? Sure. Remember you do not have to be conscience to submit. Ask Savage, Austin or anyone who ever lost to a sleeper.

I see this match going a lot like the Hart/Austin match. Back and forth, Warrior bloodies up Flair, Flair uses chair shots to Warriors knee to weaken it. With about two minutes left Flair gets the lock on Warrior, flair uses the ropes for leverage and with about 20 seconds left Warrior passes out and Flair wins 1-0.

In reality Flair should not lose this. With the exception of about three years kayfabe wise Flair owns it all over Warrior. Better wrestler. Better draw. Better champion. Longevity. At the top as face or heel.

A vote for Warrior is just silly.

 

[ServantofTwilight]

I sort of see where you are coming from now. In terms of the not quitting, I think people are extrapolating the fact that no massive star faces ever submit, and he was one such wrestler.

What I can show you is people trying submission moves on Warrior and getting absolutely nowhere.

Full Nelson was Hercules' finisher, but before he can get it locked in, Warrior powers out of it at about 5:15.


This is when he was well past it, but he still does it. At 2:30 Owen Hart tries to put Warrior in a sharpshooter. Warrior powers out of it.


These aren't crappy rest holds, they're the finishing manoeuvres that won countless matches, and Warrior powers out of them practically before you've noticed them being applied.

Incidentally, I did vote for Yokozuna.

You have actually proved Mojo's point for him. The moves were never locked in. Had the nelson or the Sharpshooter been locked in for minutes and the Warrior refused to quit and eventually escaped you would have something. You just verified Warrior never had to deal with a prolonged submission hold. Which is what MrMojoRisin has been saying.

 

[MrMojoRisin]

You have actually proved Mojo's point for him. The moves were never locked in. Had the nelson or the Sharpshooter been locked in for minutes and the Warrior refused to quit and eventually escaped you would have something. You just verified Warrior never had to deal with a prolonged submission hold. Which is what MrMojoRisin has been saying.

I'll give credit here. He does bring up a logical argument for Warrior that's been lacking in this thread. Warrior absolutely would power out of any submission attempts... early on.

In addition to proving my point about him never having to deal with a real submission like you said... if you look at the times in those matches, it also supports another argument I made. That he's capable of doing that early in his matches.

In a 30 minute match, he wouldn't have the same level of energy and strength to do that. He may have short burst energy, but he wouldn't have the same strength that he had in the first 5 minutes of a match that he would at the 25+ minute mark... but Flair would. That is one of the main things that makes all the difference in the world to me.

It was never that he can't work a 30 minute match. It's that he isn't the same guy late into a 30 minute match that he is in his normal 5-7 minute matches. Flair however, is the exact same. He's still getting warmed up by that point.

 

[The Brain]

I haven't been paying as close attention to the tournament this year as I usually do but it seems like this is the thread of the year so far.

I voted for Warrior. On the surface the advantage seems like it would go to Flair. 30 minute ultimate submission match. Flair is famous for his stamina and his figure four. Warrior doesn't use any submissions. Seems like Flair is the obvious pick.

Not so fast. I think the 30 minute stipulation favors Warrior more than Flair. Warrior has gone 20+ with Hogan and Savage. He may not be the most polished guy in the ring but he is a great athlete. I think he can handle an extra few minutes. Flair on the other hand is the 60 minute man. He's getting half his match taken away. He needs to accelerate his usual pace which could lead to pressure and mistakes. The clock isn't against Warrior because he must last 30. It's against Flair because he can't go past it.

It's true Warrior doesn't have a submission but let's be real. He's not the smartest wrestler in the world but there were plenty of submission moves I could execute when I was eight years old. The bear hug has been mentioned and that's one Warrior would be likely to use. The full nelson is not a hard move to pull off. A camel clutch is pretty easy. I could see Warrior using a Jesse the Body like back breaker. Flair can use plenty of holds too but we know he's going to go for the figure four when he's going for the kill. Which leads me to the finish.

This could very easily be 0-0 as the clock is running out. Flair would go for his signature hold and that would be his mistake. The figure four is one move that when reversed puts the one who applied the hold into another submission hold. Warrior is certainly powerful enough to reverse the figure four. Time is running out. Flair puts on the figure four. Warrior reverses (all he has to do is roll over). Flair taps just before the bell. Warrior wins 1-0.

 

[Tastycles]

I'll give credit here. He does bring up a logical argument for Warrior that's been lacking in this thread. Warrior absolutely would power out of any submission attempts... early on.

In addition to proving my point about him never having to deal with a real submission like you said... if you look at the times in those matches, it also supports another argument I made. That he's capable of doing that early in his matches.

In a 30 minute match, he wouldn't have the same level of energy and strength to do that. He may have short burst energy, but he wouldn't have the same strength that he had in the first 5 minutes of a match that he would at the 25+ minute mark... but Flair would. That is one of the main things that makes all the difference in the world to me.

It was never that he can't work a 30 minute match. It's that he isn't the same guy late into a 30 minute match that he is in his normal 5-7 minute matches. Flair however, is the exact same. He's still getting warmed up by that point.

If he had read what I'd said, it would make sense. The Owen Hart match is at longer than the time stated - that video is the second half of it.

To counter the point about the time thing. At the end of the Savage match at WrestleMania VII - after he's had 5 finishers or whatever it was - he still does his usual shtick. Like I said, I can accept that Jim Hellwig got tired, the Yltimate Warrior character clearly never did.

 

[It's...Baylariat!]

Let's think about this for a minute.

We have someone who doesn't submit to anything vs. someone who has submitted to people like Finlay and Jay Lethal, has submitted to Sting roughly 18,000 times and has lost a World Title by submission. Warrior may not be the best submission guy in the world, but if he throws a bearhug or something similar on Flair, you could very easily hear Flair give up. If Warrior can last the rest of the match, he'd be fine.

If nothing else, what would stop Flair from submitting early, thinking he could always come back later? He may well be the most overconfident wrestler of all time with the constant running to the top rope with a success rate of about 2% or the Figure Four against top names with a slightly lower success rate. Yeah Flair is a guy who has had success with submissions, but Warrior isn't your normal opponent. This would be like Hulk Hogan submitting to the Figure Four. It may seem like something Flair should be able to do with ease, but he never could pull it off.

I'd actually go with Warrior here. The guy just doesn't submit and Flair has a very, very bad record making people like Warrior submit.

Passing out is the same as submissions here, right?

Warrior's too prideful to give up, but that doesn't mean he won't submit. It means that he'll merely be unable to respond when his hand's raised three times and falls down.

Warrior has NO submission moves in his arsenal that I'm aware of, so how can he possibly submit Flair or anyone for that matter?

If Flair makes him pass out to the Figure Four once, then he'd win, because Warrior doesn't have any submission moves in his repertoire.

There will be other times to try to find a way to get Flair out of this thing, but at least have it be logical.

 

[Pay Per Ghost]

.

It's true Warrior doesn't have a submission but let's be real. He's not the smartest wrestler in the world but there were plenty of submission moves I could execute when I was eight years old. The bear hug has been mentioned and that's one Warrior would be likely to use. The full nelson is not a hard move to pull off. A camel clutch is pretty easy. I could see Warrior using a Jesse the Body like back breaker. Flair can use plenty of holds too but we know he's going to go for the figure four when he's going for the kill.

.

The concept of saying Warrior has never submitted is not applicable because he has never used a submission is asinine. This is a submission match and lord almighty here are the facts:

1) Warrior could come up with a big man submission because he HAS to here. He has never been mandated to use one and that is not a good point against him.

2) He has faced numerous opponents who have used a submission as the finisher and yet never submitted ever. If that doesn't get him over in a submission match I dunno what does.

3) Flair has a rep for LOSING to the big babyfaces (see Sting and Hogan) with these guys turning over or powering out of the patent submission.

Closing Argument:

Warrior might not go far but deserves to win here. The stip suits him, and the opponent is someone who has a history of losing to stars of the Warrior's status.