Int Region, New York Subregion, First Round: (8) Rey Mysterio vs. (25) Bobo Brazil

[klunderbunker]

This is a first round match in the International Region, New York Subregion. It is a standard one on one match held under International Rules, meaning the match is held under the standard rules of the country the match is held in. It will be held at Madison Square Garden in New York City, New York.

#8. Rey Mysterio

Vs.

#25. Bobo Brazil

​

Polls will be open for three days following a one day period for discussion. Voting will be based on who you feel is the greater of the two competitors. Post your reasons for why your pick should win below. Remember that this is non-spam and the most votes in the poll win. Any ties will be broken by the amount of posts of support for each candidate, with one vote per poster.

Also remember that this is a non-spam forum. If you post a response without giving a reason for your selection, it will be penalized for spam and deleted.

 

[deem]

I think I'm taking Bobo here.

I come out the woodwork for the WZ tournament on these forums once a year - one of my most recent posts was slandering the choice of Bobo over Nash in 2010. I stand by those arguments - Bobo's popularity may be based largely on him being the first hugely popular black wrestler, whereas in this tournament with everyone in their prime this isn't a factor.

However, Rey Mysterio is no Kevin Nash. He's had an incredible career - the vast majority of that has been midcard. All his best work. His forays into main event have largely been opportunistic timing (Eddie's death) and to capitalise on the hispanic audience for Smackdown.

That said, the same is the case for Bobo. He won the NWA title, but it's impossible to debate now for someone not around at the time whether this was just based on him being a popular ethnic minority or whether his skill, ability and drawing power circumvented creed.

Both have featured high on cards for decades, both similar world title experience, both similar levels of drawing and popularity. So it comes down to kayfabe for me with no logical advantage in "he would def be booked to go over here".

People often state how good Rey's record against big men is - I dispute that strongly. He's booked strongly for sure, he is a fighting underdog who's gone toe to toe with prime Big Show, prime Undertaker etc. I just believe the manner of his losses bias people towards thinking he has some incredible record against larger athletes. He doesn't. He fights gutsily and loses. A lot.

He had a notable run of beating giants in WCW, sure. Kevin Nash, Bam Bam etc. Every one was considered a huge upset and it's worth considering he was never booked to compete at main event with them while in WCW. It was a novelty and small part of his career.

In WWE, he has actually rarely feuded with big men. Sure he's faced a few on TV, but of his PPV feuds he's jobbed to Khali, Big Show, Batista on numerous occasions. In fact, I've only found one highly significant win against a guy of comparable size to Bobo Brazil in Rey's WWE career.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pn5TrcQ7V9g

Look at how dominant Batista is booked. This is on the back of two straight batista high profile wins against Rey. I mean sure, he might get dominated in a similar manner by Bobo put sneak a roll up too - the point is percentages and likelihood, and I'm saying he HAS to be considered unlikely to go over here.

I'd spend more time praising Bobo's career but I've only seen a handful of matches. I know he holds notable wins over a host of huge stars - the original sheik, Big Cat, Buddy f Rogers for the NWA title.

I can be convinced here - sure Bobo would be unfamiliar with Rey's highflying which might give an unpredictability edge to Mysterio. Maybe Bobo has a bad track record against smaller opponents that I'm unfamiliar with.

I'm not voting yet, I'm just putting forward a case as to why I think on paper the #25 seed should be your vote here. I know Rey will win, he has a ton of popularity modern day and Bobo will be unfamiliar to many. I'd welcome a well thought out counter argument here and would hate people to blindly vote

 

[6timehitta]

I think Bobo is a very tough guy, but being an International ring, I think that is the one thing that gives Rey an advantage here. While he won't overpower anyone, he has the heart, speed, and as far as I'm concerned some of the best wrestling ability of anyone in this tournament, so for now, Rey advances in this bracket.

 

[Brewski]

I'm a fan of BoBo and while i'm not so much a fan of mysterio anymore, he was one of my favorites years ago. I respect BoBo here and I think he can overpower rey easily, Mysterio Jr. has proven he can overcome that. Rey Mysterio Jr. Wins by pinfall in a good one.

 

[Con T.]

I don't know much about Bobo, but from what I'be read, he seemed a nice enough guy, that represented the NWA very well, especially during a time where, let's face it, being black sucked ass.

Without Rey Mysterio, Lucha as we know it in America doesn't exist. As a matter of fact, wrestlers performing half of he moves that we see nowadays owe their left nut and paycheck to Rey (as well as Konnan, a guy I legitimately believe deserves a spot in this tournament. I mean, fuck, you give a spot to Miz, you may as well give one to Konnan. At least he actually drew)

You know how the moonsault is so passé, we're not shocked that divas can do them? That wasn't always the case; as far back as maybe 1993, if you could do a moonsault, you got an instant pop, and probably about another half star on our match rating.

Rey Mysterio made that look like child's play. And he very well may be the most innovative wrestler in the history of wrestling.

So yep, he wins here

 

[Jack-Hammer]

If there's one argument that's used FAR, FAR too much during these tournaments, it's the "he's a legend" argument. The argument of someone wrestling during a certain time period isn't something that trumps every other argument.

However, that's not to say that Bobo Brazil wasn't impressive. Bobo was a big star in a number of territories and had a significant presence in Japan. He often went on tours in Japan for the Japan Wrestling Association during the 60s & 70s, including having two brief runs as NWA International Heavyweight Champion during a couple of tours over there. He was an especially big star in the NWA affiliates in Detroit & Los Angeles and, of course, a big star in the WWWF, winning the WWWF United States Championship 7 times. Bobo should have been the first African American World Champion but NWA politics and old fashioned racism screwed him out of it.

Mysterio is also someone whose been an international star with significant title runs in AAA and the WWA in Mexico. He pretty much put the term Cruiserweight on the map when it comes to American fans. He's an 8 time Cruiserweight Champion and 3 time World Champion.

In the end, I just think Mysterio's high speed offense & high flying ability would give him the win over Bobo. Bobo's place in history as the first major black star in pro wrestling is important and to be respected. If he goes over here I won't complain, but I'm going with Mysterio.

 

[Tastycles]

Bobo Brazil won't win this match, and if there was a chance he would, I wouldn't have voted for him in such a such a care free manner, but the fact is, he was huge in New York and everywhere else, in his day. Rocca and Sammartino were probably the only bigger draws in that area, and then maybe Thesz and Gagne nationally. I don't think Mysterio has ever seriously been near the top 5 names of his generation.

Mysterio is a fantastic performer, and deserves a place in the second round, but I've voted against him to make sure that people have a look at Bobo and appreciate that not only was he a black man making it in a white world, but one who actually dominated it in the 1950s and 60s, and that's not to be shirked at.

 

[supernatural1981]

Another tough choice but Bobo Brazil made his mark with a lot of fans at a time when being black was considered a bad thing to a lot of people.

Rey Rey made his mark on a american audience in the 90's thanks to the AAA/WCW when worlds collide supershow and showed a lot of people just what Lucha Libre could bring to the US mainstream and influenced so many of todays wrestlers that i have to choose him.

 

[nightmare]

Rey took a style of wrestling that many had never seen & helped bring it to new places. How many people attribute their love of wrestling & ring style to Rey? Quite a few- especially in Mexico...

Now a show of hands for those influenced by Bobo? Ok then.


Merchandise. Fanbase. Bigger Draw. More Exciting Moveset\Matches. Rey f'n Mysterio.

619 & a splash get the win for Rey in 6:19.

 

[Con T.]

Now a show of hands for those influenced by Bobo? Ok then

Ding ding ding!

Ladies and gentlemen, I'd like to bring to you all, a fun little game I like to call "nightmare is never right". And boy, is this a pretty good example, because as far back as I can tell, it was Brazil's matches with the original Sheik that brought in hardcore wrestling.

Someone already mentioned how big of a draw Bobo was in the northeast, totally correct, but he was also a damn big draw in Detroit, the old stomping grounds of the Sheik (another guy who should be here, but isn't). Sheik had plenty of great opponents, but from everything I've seen, his best opponent was Bobo, and they would have brutal, violent matches. Yes, even more violent match than Sheik was used to.... And it paved the way for two things;

1. A larger audience to watch Sheik's work, especially in territories that hasn't experienced hardcore wrestling.

2. Interest in that kind of wrestling that, while purists would probably stick up heir nose to (here's looking at you, Thesz), was gaining popularity. Sheik gains national fame off Bobo's massive audience, and we have what we have now.

So yeah... Sucks to be wrong, buddy. Should probably choose your words a little wiser

 

[nightmare]

Ding ding ding!

Ladies and gentlemen, I'd like to bring to you all, a fun little game I like to call "nightmare is never right".

So here we go with a prime example of Haiku on my nuts. I should end up having to buy you dinner before the week is up since you are doing such a classy job down there.



Out of every match they (bobo\sheik) had that influenced a fan or new generation of stars how many of those people will say it was because of Bobo? Not too damn many. Surely not nearly as many as those that reference Rey as an influence. In fact I would say that Sheik would be mentioned over Bobo 98% of the time. Especially in regards to wrestlers\fans today. Now some of that may well be because of the way ECW referenced Sabu & Sheik so many times- but that just proves that Sheik is remembered far more than Bobo.



Just because he was part of matches or really took it to Sheik- does not make him more influential. Evidence & history shows that given the 2 men in this match-up (& we can throw Sheik in there since you brought him up) Bobo would be at the bottom of the list in terms of people giving a shit.

Bobo was popular mostly in the northeast & the reason? Mainly because he was one of the first black guys to gain a following back then. In a racially charged time he was one of few in the business so of course they would look for someone to stand out- that guy ended up being Bobo. Still does not make him more influential\rememberd than Sheik or even his opponent here Rey Mysterio.

Rey=Lucha > Bobo=black wrestlers or even hardcore wrestling. If his matches with Sheik were so revolutionary (or even = what Rey has done) then many more people would know of him. You yourself said you know very little about Bobo (nice enough guy, that represented the NWA very well). So before you get on your high horse like an injustice has been done for not recognizing how great he was- calm down. You, yourself could not give a crap less about Bobo Brazil.


Truth be told you even said yourself that Rey wins here. Which means you think he is a bigger star to his style as well as wrestling as a whole. So quit trying to stir shit up.

 

[Con T.]

So here we go with a prime example of Haiku on my nuts. I should end up having to buy you dinner before the week is up since you are doing such a classy job down there.

Oh don't get me wrong, I am going to point out plenty of stupidity in here. You aren't even the worst person I've dealt with today.

Out of every match they (bobo\sheik) had that influenced a fan or new generation of stars how many of those people will say it was because of Bobo?

Couple things:

1. I'm pretty sure every black wrestler you see owes some homage to Bobo Brazil for them being in the business. A little quote from Melvin Nelson;

``Bobo Brazil was to wrestling what Jackie Robinson was to baseball,''

This was a guy who had fame in the WWWF, because that was one of few territories that would allow black wrestlers to wrestle whites.

Oh, and Ernie Ladd, Rocky Johnson, Ron Simmons, Booker T. All men who have at said in interviews Bobo got them into wrestling.

2. It wasn't just the wrestlers, it was the bookers and promoters Brazil inspired, showing them

A. A black man can get over in wrestling (there was no guarantee to that)

B. there was an untapped market to hardcore wrestling that hasn't been brought in yet. And that's just as important as the boys.

I'll cut you right off to your claim that it was all Sheik; it's a mainly bullshit one. Hardcore wrestling had little prominence nationally. Lou Thesz was going to humble Sheik when they were scheduled to wrestle (a match Sheik no showed, shock), mainly because he had a thing against "gimmick" wrestlers.

He wasn't the only one. People flat out refused to work with Sheik because of his shit. It never got half as over until Bobo played plucky babyface for him, and the duo got Detroit crowds into it.

You know why Sheik's best feud was Bobo? Because very few other wrestlers were going to go along with Farhat's shit.

Surely not nearly as many as those that reference Rey as an influence.

Newer times, contemporaries in the back who want to kiss some ass, blah, blah.
Of course you'll hear that; more workers today have seen Rey. That doesn't make Bobo any less influential. And I never said he wasn't influential; what's wrong, and why you're getting chastised now, is because you had to go all shitlord on us all, and say a guy who is for plenty of guys pretty god damn influential, isn't.

Just because he was part of matches or really took it to Sheik- does not make him more influential. Evidence & history shows that given the 2 men in this match-up (& we can throw Sheik in there since you brought him up) Bobo would be at the bottom of the list in terms of people giving a shit.

Please, evidence and history? Ok, fine;

Evidence and history shows Bobo broke color barriers.

Pretty sure that's pretty fucking good.

Bobo was popular mostly in the northeast & the reason? Mainly because he was one of the first black guys to gain a following back then. In a racially charged time he was one of few in the business so of course they would look for someone to stand out- that guy ended up being Bobo. Still does not make him more influential\rememberd than Sheik or even his opponent here Rey Mysterio.

I'd put this in the smarmy spam responses because this seems flat out trolling, but I assume only three or four people would get why.

You yourself said you know very little about Bobo (nice enough guy, that represented the NWA very well). So before you get on your high horse like an injustice has been done for not recognizing how great he was- calm down.

Apparently I know more than I let on.

I am calm; I'm not the one resorting to the old fashioned tactics of nut jokes (good show, the third grader you paid for that joke will be quite proud). But see; here's the thing;

You were a gobshite last tournament. You're a gobshite now. And I'd just rather dick around and see how many grade school jokes I can work out of that wonderfully closed mind of yours.

See, I even gave you the word dick to get the ball rolling

 

[nightmare]

Oh, you. Reading can be fun but lets point out one thing at a time shall we, then im done with you. I am bored of you already.

Of course you'll hear that; more workers today have seen Rey. That doesn't make Bobo any less influential. And I never said he wasn't influential; what's wrong, and why you're getting chastised now, is because you had to go all shitlord on us all, and say a guy who is for plenty of guys pretty god damn influential, isn't.

1) "More workers today have seen Rey." That means more people to gain influence from said individual. Less people means less opportunity to influence said people. Its math. Call this formula #1- A handful of black wrestlers & likely some that followed the northeast territories (or researched later on in life)-vs- a much larger scale audience in Mexico (a whole country) and later the US (big old country) then the world(many countries). Rey wins the numbers category based on the available audience alone. New media formats & all. So obviously that means Bobo (using comon sense) would have had a smaller audience to influence.


2) Never once did I say Bobo had no influence over anyone. Apparently your definition of 'going shitlord' was implying that Bobo was less influential than Rey. Oh, god how dare I imply such a thought... (see formula #1)

Evidence and history shows Bobo broke color barriers.

Pretty sure that's pretty fucking good.

Ok, Sheik has stood the test of time by being mentioned more often that those that mention Bobo. Rey is mentioned more than both. Half to do with the fact he is still active- The other half of that is the amount of fans & wrestlers that have grown up watching Rey since his AAA & ECW days vs the amount of fans\wrestlers that grew up watching Bobo.



So to summarize- we both agree Bobo had influence & obviously agree that Rey was more influential & innovative than Bobo (considering we both voted Rey).

Now kindly go away & quit trying to stir things up by attempting to troll someone who voted for the same guy you did. I am not impressed & no longer care what dumb reasons you try to pick apart to prove against a point you actually agree with.

 

[Con T.]

Now a show of hands for those influenced by Bobo? Ok then.

Wait with me... I can see a backtrack coming....

Evidence & history shows that given the 2 men in this match-up (& we can throw Sheik in there since you brought him up) Bobo would be at the bottom of the list in terms of people giving a shit.


You, yourself could not give a crap less about Bobo Brazil.

I can see it coming...

So to summarize- we both agree Bobo had influence & obviously agree that Rey was more influential & innovative than Bobo (considering we both voted Rey).

Aaand we're there.

That's all I wanted, really; you call it trolling, but trust me, I'm probably going to wind up doing this to much more often.

And to be honest, I don't even know if he is that much more influential. Bobo had a pretty big hand in the success of the WWWF, and that aside from Bruno, that he's probably the most famous face they ever had working for them. I can't ever say that for Rey... As a matter of fact, he was certainly over, but I'd never call him a main guy. Hell, he got his shove to the top because Eddie died, and was a pretty weak champion.

All I'm saying is, if you're going to say one guy was more influential, sure. But to say he had no influence and no one gives a crap about him?

Welp, then yeah, I think it's stupid. And I'm sure when you reply, you'll probably ignore I just said (like the majority of my last post), and continue to say I'm on your nuts, and blah blah blah

 

[nightmare]

All I'm saying is, if you're going to say one guy was more influential, sure. But to say he had no influence and no one gives a crap about him?

Oh what the hell, one more time for giggles.

I thought that my math lesson was enough for you but I guess reading is really your weak point. Further proving you are either ******ed or just dense...

Your first sentence in the quote is you understanding what I have said. The second? Thats you turning the corner in to imaginary land.


The word less and the word none. They mean different things. None =\= less. Example, saying someone has less influence in a list of 3 people is different than saying they have no influence at all. You could have less beer in your glass than 2 others sitting at the bar or you could have an empty glass. Do I need to give more examples or have you finally got it?


The phrases 'no influence' & 'no one cares' never were said in relation to Bobo Brazil. So Im glad to see you are able to read english. What I did say, however, was that you dont give a crap about him. Did you read the parts about 'less' & 'not as' from my other post? Or do we need to revisit the paragraph above once more so you understand what words mean?


But on the subject of backtracking... This whole thing sounds like you are trying to convince yourself or change your own mind. Vote for Rey, yet spin yourself in circles reading imaginary context\words in posts from someone who also voted for Rey.


Either way, Rey wins, you are a confused douche & class is dismissed.

 

[The Brain]

This is one of the toughest first round matches. Even though Mysterio has it wrapped up by now I wanted to get my vote in and I did vote for Mysterio. When I fist saw the match I was thinking Bobo and went back and forth several times. I think Mysterio's style would be a little too much for Bobo and Rey would eventually catch him in some kind of sudden pin.