Flip Gordon and Flipping

Discussion in '[Hidden] General Wrestling Discussion' started by #hamler, Dec 24, 2017.

  1. #hamler

    #hamler Trending Worldwide.

    Mar 19, 2010
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    Flip Gordon recently sat down with the Wrestling News Hub for an interview on a variety of topics and one thing in particular really caught my attention. He discussed whether the indies are relying too heavily on spots and not enough on storytelling in their in ring work:

    From The Wrestling News Hub:
    Other than asking a glorified spot money if there are too many spots on the indies, Flip makes some solid points here.

    Wrestlers on the indies book their own gigs, sell their own merchandise and have to work fairly hard to get their name out there. Wrestlers like Ricochet and the Young Bucks are making the most money on the indies due to their style in wrestling matches and Will Ospreay's stock skyrocketed after his bout with Ricochet gained so much attention last year. I love the WWE but the indie style can be so much fun at times. On occasion, I want to see a 185 pound guy do multiple 630°s while no selling a table bump after being tossed around the ring by a penis — based on the money some of these guys are raking in, I'm not the only one that feels that way.

    Does the flippy style draw? Does Flip provide a good point? What's your take on this?
  2. Jack-Hammer

    Staff Member Moderator

    Mar 26, 2009
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    I read that yesterday and, overall, he impressed me with his answers because he didn't mark out for high spots while calling the more traditional style of wrestling most fans are used to boring, outdated or whatever.

    On the indie scene, the vast majority of companies are lucky if they put on one show a month, a significant number do less than that. As a result, all the focus has to be on the action of the matches, which means lots of spots and/or flips while heavily cutting back on storytelling and selling; most of them don't have shows often enough to have any real stories going on for the fans to get invested in, so they have to rely on what they can fit into that brief window of opportunity and for a lot of wrestlers, that means flips and high spots. The wrestlers HAVE to get themselves noticed and seeing as how many of the top guys out on the indie scene, most of them really, are on the smaller side, that means they have to be able to show off their athleticism.

    It's sort of its own double edged sword, however, as continued over reliance on the "indie style" is looked down upon by a lot of fans; it doesn't mean that their athleticism isn't appreciated, but it's hard to become invested in a match when there's no substance to it. I'm not a fan of the style myself because the flips and spots are just too much and, if anything, put more emphasis than any other style on just how "fake" wrestling is. For instance, I watched the most recent episode of ROH and the main event was the Young Bucks & Kenny Omega vs. Rocky Romero & the Best Friends and I absolutely hated the match because it was nothing but nonstop flips, high spots, heavily pre-planned spots, no storytelling and virtually no selling for over 20 minutes. Unfortunately, it's a style that's come to define ROH for much of this decade and it's a shame because guys like Bryan, Punk, Joe, Styles & Cesaro were able to do just fine without their matches being spotfests; I like some exciting moves as much as anybody, but dives, flips and flops lose any and all spectacle, for me at least, when you see an entire match made up almost of nothing but them.

    That's not to say that wrestlers can't get over and aren't good if they rely more on their in-ring skills, few things can be further from the truth, but that's where the use of psychology and storytelling come in along with selling the effects of being in a "fight." In spite of what some say, that does every bit as much damage to the credibility of pro wrestling, maybe even more when you get right down to it, than WWE's more "sports entertainment" approach does at times.
    tdmoon likes this.
  3. Psykohurricane55

    Psykohurricane55 Moderator
    Staff Member Moderator

    May 13, 2011
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    Personally i don'T know who this guy is because i'm not really into Indy wrestling but i kinda agree with him. That's kinda the problem with indy wrestling now, You have so many guys that want to be wrestlers and want to be booked so they really don'T have a choice, they have to do crazy stuff to get notice and get more booking. The problem with that mentality is that a lot of the bigger names in indy wrestling start believing their own press and start thinking they they are big stars because they have a lot of buzz on the indy scene so when WWE give them a call and they decided to sign with them, they get a reality check and some don't like it because the culture of indy wrestling isn'T the same as the WWE.

    That's the problem, fans that goes to indy shows don'T care about the well being of the wrestling, they just want to be entertain and see those crazy spot, that's what the current wrestling scene is. It's too bad because of this mentality, guys that normally could at have a 20 or 30 year careers, can't anymore because the style is more demanding then it was back in the days of the territories. But in the end, that the culture we live in now, fans want to see car crash and guys like meltzer encourage that mentality because they know that this is what the current wrestling fan want to see.

    The style as positive and negative on both side but in the end, they might get notice easier by doing crazy bump but it's at the expanse of their health which will take time off their career, so for thing to change. it's in the end of the performers and promoters, what's more important in the end, making money and being notice on the indy scene or their health.
  4. ABMorales787

    ABMorales787 Lord And Master
    Staff Member Administrator

    Sep 18, 2009
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    Flip does have the right idea as far as how to grasp attention. He was total nobody at the start of the year and now he's in ROH after a notable stint in The Crash on some pretty high profile matches. Part of it certainly was "the flippy shit" but the other half of it was the exposure with Being The Elite and showing a character on top of his wrestling.

    Will Ospreay and Ricochet are both examples of that too, starting out with their ludicrous high-flying style before going on to show more depth to them. Ricochet doing it in Lucha Underground while Ospreay was almost wrestling like a completely different person in WCPW with a pretty damn great heel run there.

    Some guys find a balance and when to step away or back into the so-called indie style. More often than not, it's the guys who end up standing out the most in that scene like a Ricochet or a Will Ospreay, even The Young Bucks have some damn great matches that depend on heavy psychology rather than their off-beat shenanigans. It's just a matter of where and when to showcase that instead.
    #hamler likes this.
  5. Navi

    Navi With the safety off!!

    Apr 15, 2010
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    He's right, it works in the indies but it doesn't work in for example in a WWE setting. The cruiserweight division is a perfect example of that as most fans totally ignore their matches.

    For a fan like myself, and I'll only speak for myself, it depends on the wrestler and what they are capable off. I remember watching a match with Sheamus jumping off the top rope into a bunch of wrestlers on the outside. He came down like a sack of potatoes and looked ridiculous doing so. So yea someone like him shouldn't be jumping off stuff, he's more of a brawler type and looks silly trying that kind of wrestling.

    On the other hand does anyone want to watch a match full of rest holds with nothing really happening, might as well watch paint dry. I have no problem with flippy stuff if it helps tell the story and no one is killing themselves doing it. Don't watch to sit through a match full of it though, will watch Cirque De Soliel if need be.

    The thing is to find the perfect balance and know what will have the maximum effect for the move they're doing. Not many ever find that and go too much one way or the other. AJ Styles is one who can brawl, flip around and it looks like it's happening naturally. He's one of the few in the WWE that makes it work for him.
    #hamler and Jack-Hammer like this.

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