Wade Barrett could very well become the greatest contribution to Pro Wrestling from England, yet. No argument out of me on that note.
Good to see we share some common ground.
But I can't help but to laugh at the fact you believe the former Cheerleader is anything close to Drew's standing.
Well, he's been more entertaining, had better matches and is an upper midcarder favored by an authority figure. So yes, they're on a similar level.
WWE is ignoring his former gimmicks, and so will I. Unless you want to talk about Drew McIntyre, the world's biggest party animal and Dave Taylor's protegee, I suggest you do the same.
McIntyre is already a former Intercontinental Champion.
why yes he is. You can blame Rey Mysterio for Ziggler not being a former IC champion though.
In vastly less time than Ziggler even got his first title shot.
That's relavent to how good McIntyre is in relation to McIntyre how exactly?
And what's Dolph doing now? Why, Ziggle's is hoping to get a piece of Edge's leftovers.
Ziggler's doing the exact same thing McIntyre is. Only difference is Ziggler's licking a different hole.
I've heard that excuse before. Problem is, Mysterio being out of the picture shouldn't have truly changed anything if Dolph was truly set to become Champion.
It kind of does. The fact that Rey cockblocked him means creative wanted him to be champion. He didn't get Morrison's title after that because (I'm guessing here) creative saw more in Drew McIntyre and changed plans to push the new upcoming heel instead of Ziggler. Point is, the booking for Drew was a lot better than Ziggler. Which was your point. Me liking Ziggler more than Drew, and thinking he's better is irrelevent.
The thing about Ziggler is, he's all style - no character.
What exactly is Drew's character? Also
narccissism counts as a character trait.
He's great to watch, like a high flier or a former WCW Cruiserweight, but no one truly cares enough to see him win anything worth something.
I'd say that Rey Mysterio, Chavo Gurrerro, Chris Benoit and Chris Jericho were former WCW criuserweights, but they're the exception rather than the norm.
SummerSlam proved that WWE would rather do what Rey wants than push the guy they were planning to. Still do, if Fatal Fourway is anything to go by.
People loved their match, but no one cared enough to protest or put up too much of a complaint when he never won the title.
You've got a point there. I didn't see anybody protesting when Drew lost his title either.
I'm sorry you don't seem to like him because he isn't boisterous, like The Miz. Or corny/funny like John Cena, or sadistic like the Undertaker. McIntyre is meticulous and methodical through my eyes.
Nope, it's not that. I enjoy promos from Jericho (for example) who also cuts promos about his superiority in a monotoned manner. I also enjoy people who are meticulous and methodical in the ring. There's nothing majorly wrong with drew, but he just doesn't click with me.
He can repeat himself through promos, (comes off whiny at times, regarding Teddy Long) but it isn't because of anything he's lacking - its because he's driving home what he wants and makes people hate him for it even more.
Then why is it that I can enjoy Jericho saying the same things every week (parasites, sycophants, gelatinous, tapeworm, I am the best in the world at what I do) in the exact same pitch, but not enjoy Drew McIntyre who does the exact same thing in his promos?
I also don't get how he's "quiet" on the mic. Again, the only thing I can think of is that I'm sorry he isn't stupidly loud, like Miz, or yells constantly like Edge.
Firstly because it's a holdover from his early days (when he was a quiet promo) and secondly because he is quieter than the average superstar when cutting promos. He doesn't have to shout, just speak a little louder.
compare
this to
http://www.wwe.com/content/media/video/vms/wwenxt/2010/june1-7/14639866
Swagger - Has no where near VG heat. No one gave a shit about him being Champion, and now he's not. How on earth you think you heard VG heat is beyond me.
Well, reports of him beong impossible to hear over the crowd booing him and this promo:
[YOUTUBE]Rd9JP2rEz4Y[/YOUTUBE]
suggests that the crowd both cared about him and he was getting major (Vickie Gurrerro level) heat.
The Miz - About the closest I'd say of anyone, to being a potential breakout star. But at the same time, any feud he has with a true Main Eventer - he LOSES.
Your point? McIntyre's record against MErs isn't great either. And not to mention that like you said, Miz isn't a main eventer yet. It doesn't make sence to have your MEers lose to tallent that's benieth them.
Christian - Deserves more than what he's getting. This is a guy who was helping to keep TNA with fans, in having entertaining matches with Sting, Angle and Styles. Now, he's barely involved in anything beyond Superstars.
And imo McIntyre is getting more than he deserves. Also, wrestling needs over enhancement tallent, Christian is filling that role. Is he good enough to be something more? Certainly, but he's not being used in that capacity.
And even though he's doing fuck all the crowd cares more about him than they do about McIntyre.
Morrison - The fans will always fawn for him because he has good looks for the ladies, and flashy moves that fans cheer for. I want badly for him, as well, to be something huge. But dammit if the man needs a Manager so he doesn't have to open his mouth. (He needs Melina back)
Agreed. He does have moments where he displays real potential on the mic. If he worked on his promo cutting he could actually be a half decent talker.
As far as McIntyre having more, but not knowing it by comparing. I read (again, be it as it may) rumors that he WAS meant to have Swagger's title reign, but it was given away because of an attitude and "better than thou" tone he carried backstage.
The reports I read also suggested that he was less over than he was expected to be based on the motherfucker of a push he was given.
If thats true, then he's an idiot for thinking anything of the nature.
Yes, yes he would be.
However, it just goes to show - the only person stopping McIntyre from succeeding, isn't anyone other than his own attitude.
Well, you know what they say. We're our own worst enemies.
The fans have most certainly NOT always loved Matt Hardy. You're confusing him with his brother, Jeff.
Dude gets a huge pop. Might be because he's Jeff's brother, but it's a good pop none the less. Unless this isn't a good pop.
[YOUTUBE]Vaj7b3ODP2M[/YOUTUBE]
And where/what did his heel turn take/get him? I seem to recall a Mania victory over Jeff, and yet Jeff gets the World title a little over a month later. Yep, what a push that was for Matt.
I seem to remember Matt needing surgury 4 months later, turning face and being interesting for the first time in years during the heel turn. Of course, being more interesting than Matt normally is isn't exactly tough.
I forgot his heel turn, because much like everything else he's done - it was easily forgettable because he did nothing with it.
If attempting to kill your brother and screwing him over at every chance is nothing then you're right.
I can agree to disagree, and come to a mutual understanding we're never going to think the other is right. I say this because I have no idea how you can view things the way you are.
I can accept that as the same goes for you.
I seen the fans cheering anyone who attacked McIntyre. (Kofi, Hardy, Long)
All of whom are over and would be cheered anyway.
And booing McIntyre at every moment's notice.
Wait, they're booing the guy going against the over faces? Revolutionary.
That doesn't tell me they're backing the face because of who he is, so much as going against the heel because of who he is.
Given that Drew's heat has increased since he started beating down Matt Hardy, it tells me the opposite.
But it wasn't. Name any memorable feuds they had with the Championship? Mysterio & Ziggler was about all I can think of. Morrison, for as much as I loved him as Champion - was a hugely shitty Champion.
Jericho vs Mysterio.
And what makes a good champion in your books? Morrison was having good matches with his main challengers (Ziggler and then McIntyre), defending his belt regularly and then dropped it to McIntyre, after which he cut a (shockingly good) promo about how important the title was to him. Sounds like a good champion to me.
And McIntyre as the Chosen One having that title made it seem like a more powerful, meaningful Championship. You were meant to view it by way of thinking "McMahon's hand picked Wrestler could have anything he wanted, and he wants this."
So McIntyre is treating the belt like an ordinary posession? One that can be taken and disgarded on a whim? In other words something that is supposed to represent that you are one of the best wrestrlers in the world is being treated like a trinket. How exactly is that adding value to a title?
If the crowd didn't care, he'd have fallen by the wayside and ended up like so many other failed Superstar pushes. But he hasn't. He continues to rise.
Pushes of unpopular superstars happen a lot if a higherup likes the pushee. Look at Abyssamania and Randy Orton as a face.
The key here is that You created it, so in some manner it was something You wanted to discuss. If it meant nothing to you, to the point that you couldn't have cared less, then you wouldn't of even made a thread about it.
I could care less about suppositories and ass cream, that's true. And I thought that the thread could spark some discussion. But you are right, I could certainly care a lot less about suppositories.
I love the concept of X-Pac heat, as well. Lets see, wouldn't this actually contradict everything you have just argued?
No, because I was reffering to nobody but myself. I do not like Drew McIntyre the character. Don't know about the audience, but I wasn't speaking about them.
Person. Singular. As in: "For
me, the heat is of the X-Pac variety."
The second sentence was about how any people who legit dislike McIntyre (like me) and were cheering his deportation would sound the same as people who were cheering his departure for kayfabe reasons. I could definately have expressed myself better, and it's understandable that you misinterpreted me.
don't care about McIntyre, but now turn it all around to say "but they truly hate him (with X-Pac heat)" which is still giving him exactly what he looks to have.
See above.
He's not about to turn face, so I doubt anyone cares if he's ever "cheered" in the future. And having people want to see him get his ass handed to him, is every bit of what makes a great heel.
Yes it does.
How many times has McMahon ever been on-camera to endorse McIntyre though? Twice? (once to debut him, and again at the Pay per view when he just so happened to come out when McMahon was leaving?)
And another time at the 10th aniversary show.
McIntyre has used the name of Mr. McMahon, not the actual person.
And regular interventions from McMahon. Not much difference though.
Yes there is. But it's still using McMahon's heel as hell position with the fans to get McIntyre over (which should have happened to a greater degree from first mention)
And its the name that is helping to fuel his gimmick/character, but its McIntyre making it believable thats putting him over.
And why, prey tell did McMahon's name start getting invoked a hell of a lot more often a couple of months ago. Before Drew's winning streak ended it might be mentioned every so often, but just before 'Mania McMahon started getting mentioned prominently pretty much every week. Around the same time, Drew's crowd reactions started getting louder.
your fuel metaphor is apt, given that it's McMahon that's providing the means for Drew to get over. If there was no McMahon, the Drew McIntyre machine would have stopped running long ago.
I haven't seen him yet to deliver on anything. He's currently the 2nd/3rd best heel on Smackdown.
Given that there aren't a huge number of relavent heels on Smackdown, that's not a hard achievement.
1st: C.M. Punk
2nd/3rd (tie): Swagger, McIntyre.
I'd rank Swagger above McIntyre due to him being higher on the card, getting a bigger crowd reaction and having more wrestling ability. You're also missing Vickie Gurrerro on that list.
I see it like that, because Swagger has never gotten this "VG heat" you (earlier) claimed he got.
See the video I reffered to last time.
And in my opinion, Swagger showed the world how much of a massive failure he was as a World Champion. He lost almost every match he had, his sole ppv title defense he lost via DQ, then lost his title the following month.
Umm he beat Randy Orton on PPV too. And you're claiming he's a shit World champion because he was booked terribly? He was a better world champion than Edge was when he first won the title. At least Swagger successfully defended his title.
McIntyre, on the other hand, has only ever lost Pay per view matches due to fluke-events that only help to further fuel his feud with Hardy/Long.
Better booking =/= better wrestler. McIntyre has been booked rediculously well for years. Nothing new about him being booked better than his superior peers.
Again, what was "advertised"? Because I'm getting everything I expect out of him. Solid matches, great mic work, a very fundamental character overall.
And those attributes should be enough to get him over without the frequent mentions of VKM.
Such as Who?
Matt "I love wrestling and I'm almost as good as Jeff" Hardy
John "Its cool, I don't need to try cause I look like Jim" Morrison
Wade Barrett (note the use of the singular tense again). In FCW they were booked as equals, before Drew was given his old gimmick back, and Wade was put on the ass end of a feud and played second fiddle in a stable to Byron Fucking Saxton.
This more or less proves he should be a World Heavyweight Champion. Even in someone who's debating against McIntyre, to state they feel he has the tools.
I have all the tools of a gardener, but I'm never going to win the Chelsea Flower Show. Having all of the tools doesn't neccesaraly mean that you're good enough to be declared the best in the world.
But for purpose sake, because you added more to it than that - what exactly do you think he needs to "train more on how to use"?
It means that in spite of having all he needs to be a success, he's just not good enough.
Benjamin isn't lazy. He's a spot worker. Always has been, always will be.
And if he wasn't lazy, he could have been something far more. Much like how the Miz went from stumbling over his words on the mic to one of WWE's best promo cutters.
Perhaps you should open your eyes and look harder than.
Ok, I'm looking at Drew and I see a ton of potential not being used on the mic, in the ring and as a gimmick. I see someone who has been given the ball and passed it on to others to progress rather than running with it. do I need to open my eyes and look even harder?
Someone who lives in a different time zone?
That'd still be brunch at its usual time, just that it'd happening in the evening to you (but would still be late morning/early afternoon to them)
A.) McIntyre's feud with Morrison wasn't anything more than a passing of the torch and a way to get the Intercontinental title on someone who'll actually use it properly.
A passing of the torch based feud doesn't work to gain a fan following? Is that what you're saying? Because I'm fairly sure that they can.
B.) Because Morrison has no ability to work with others, you blame McIntyre who did everything he was suppose to?
Explain how Morrison can't work with others please. I'm sure your point is valid, but I don't see where it's coming from.
This
D.) You mention McMahon in this whole thing like that isn't the main focus point of McIntyre's entire character.
You're right, McMahon is the focal point of the gimmick. However it shouldn't be what McIntyre was all about. Before his feud with Teddy, he was an arrogent sonofabitch who thought he was the shits because he had McMahon's backingm and seemed to be fulfilling Vince's prediction. During it, he's regressed to failure who needs Vince to wipe away his lack of success.
Thats like saying without breaking the rules, DX never would've worked. Or without the Undertaker using a gimmick such as being dead, he'd never get over as being "super-natural".
Or alternatively it's like saying that Wade Barrett would never get over as a brawler if he wasn't 'Europe's Number one bare knuckle fighter'. And DX would have gotten over without breaking rules, because they were actually pretty damn funny. They could have been funny without getting blowjobs in public, or any of the other outlandish things they did. 'Taker you have a point with. You can't act all super-natural without some sort of rediculous gimmick.
McMahon is a focus point regarding McIntyre - hence "McMahon's Chosen One".
And the pearl ear ring in the painting is the focal point of that picture too. Doesn't mean there's nothing more to the picture than the pearl.
It took Steve Austin 12 years to become a World Heavyweight Champion.
Two, if we ignore the time before he becane Stone Cold.
It took Hulk Hogan over 5 years to become mainstream popular.
Depends when you count him as being mainstream popular. In Japan it was three.
Whats your point? If its finally happening, over-due or otherwise, the point is - its still happening.
There's a difference between becoming the most over star in a generation and becoming as over as a midcarder is expected to be with much less of a push.
And again, without specific situations - or individuals - a lot of big names aren't/weren't able to get over. Everyone needs a starting push, and once it happens its up to them to use it and go.
The starting push for McIntyre was McMahon's backing, winning the IC title and the undefeated streak. After that start he should be at a much higher level. Hell, he should be at a level where people are calling for him to be made WHC right now and making hasty comparasons to legends.
But he stalled and his gimmick went from being 'guy who McMahon thinks is the future, and is doing well in the present' to 'guy who can't get anything done without Vince doing it for him'
McMahon has been an on-screen character in McIntyre's career all of twice.
And yet, Vince is playing a big role in the feud. Vince is fixing all of Drew's mistakes. Which he shouldn't need to be doing, if McIntyre had just carried on with the momentum he started with.
McIntyre has been the one carrying the storyline/character every other time. And doing so to a Tee, I might add.
And Vince has played the guy who keeps the machine running. Without McMahon, the machine that is Drew McIntyre would have broken down.
McIntyre has been able to bring a lot of quality matches out of each of his main three opponents.
1. Morrison
2. Kingston
3. Matt Hardy
I'm sure someone will claim it was the 3 of them that brought it out in McIntyre.
Use whatever helps you sleep at night.
Note how I said that the no DQ match was Drew's best for some time. Implying not only was it a good match, but that he had good matches (presumably with other people) after that match.
I seen to recall the respective careers of each going in opposite directions.
I never said they didn't. I said that at the time Morrison was as hot as hell, working harder than he ever had and was being thought of as the next HBK.
McIntyre's, UP. Morrison's, DOWN. Seems like McIntyre did all he was meant to do. And Morrison, just continues to act stupid for pointless reasons.
Morrison's career had declined, not denying that. But has Drew really ascended? He's gone from being largely independent from Vince and getting things done on his own to using Vince as a crutch. Doesn't seem like progress to me. Sure, Drew's gotten more over (thanks in no small part to Vince undercutting Teddy at every available moment) but characterwise, where does he go from here?
Its (by time of me typing this) Sunday. Come talk to me again next Friday, when McIntyre (by way of another McMahon note, no doubt) returns.
Will do Bosss
What would you consider "poor fan standing"? He's booed constantly. He gets the reactions he's meant to get. People, as you said yourself, "x-pac heat" (ie. hate) him.
Yes, he does get booed. However, given what he has (which is, admittedly everything), he should be getting MORE boos. Hell, he should have been getting more boos back when he didn't need Vince to do his dirty work.
I seen to recall the initial beatdown showing the fans in a mixed reaction. Thats because half didn't know whether to boo McIntyre, or give a shit that Hardy was being mentioned in another meaningful storyline.
[YOUTUBE]mTOtC4sgiXU[/YOUTUBE]
Note how the crowd goes from chanting "Hardy... Hardy... Hardy" very loudly when Matt was on the attack to booing/ooing ad a much lower volume. And then cheering Teddy. If Drew was getting Hardy over, you'd think the boos would be louder than the cheers.
McIntyre is carrying Hardy, in my opinion. We'll see I suppose once this feud ends when we see who advances their career.. and who moves back to random one-off matches on Superstars.
In the ring, yes Drew is. Because Hardy is a fat, tallentless cunt. To get a crowd reaction, it's the other way around. Especially since Hardy was mostly playing Drew's punchbag in the beginning.
Uh, yeah.. re-read what I said.
Read and responded to.
Hence why they cheer. Because they want to show hatred toward the guy getting the real reaction.
They want to hate Teddy and Matt?
Angelina Love violated her work visa and was working illegally. Rumors had her banned from wrestling in the States for years. She returned in, what, 3 months? And that was by (storyline or otherwise) her figuring out how to get everything fixed, alone.
By doing her own paperwork, and not assuming that someone she doesn't work for did it? Never heard the rumers that she'd be gone for years though. It can take a long time to get through the red tape.
McMahon, (storyline) is the most powerful person, period. A simple snap of the finger and McIntyre's work visa is back in working condition.
But simple logic makes you think that Government > McMahon. They might refer to McMahon, but he'll be gone for a few weeks. That's assuming WWE follows real world rules.
Then I remembered that this is the same company that had a ladder match for custody of Rey Mysterio's son. He'll be back next week.
Storyline isn't over yet.
I'm working on the theory that Teddy turning the tables on the Drew-Vince coalition is the climax of the story. Where do they go from here if it isn't?
PM me a link, and I'll see what I can do. Albeit, as I said in the very beginning - I'm a Wade Barrett fan as well.. so its a bit different for me to debate one over the other.
Well, if you think that Drew warrented a consistent push over Wade you can take his side without any problems. PM sent.
