Dolph Ziggler: Why is he a face?

LSN80

King Of The Ring
Back when I first started watching wrestling, the lines between faces and heels were much more defined. Look at Hulk Hogan, for example. The Hulkster instantly became the top face with a simple act: He saved Bob Backlund from a 3-1 beatdown, after which Backlund explained Hogan's face turn simply with something along the lines of "He's changed his ways." Hogan furthered this by dropping Freddie Blassie as his manager, and defeated the Iron Shiek shortly thereafter for the WWF Title, leading to the birth of Hulkamania. Hogan's face promos following this were the stuff made of legend, and he backed it up too, both by taking on and defeating heel challengers, but by saving other faces from beatdowns from heels as well.

On the other hand, look at one Ted DiBiase Sr. The "Million Dollar Man", in my estimation, was the greatest heel of all time. When he couldn't win the WWF Championship on his own, he created the Million Dollar Championship for himself. He had a manservant named Virgil whom he embarrassed on numerous occasions, and he would pull kids from the audience, ask them to dribble a basketball 100 times for 100$, and when they reached 99, he would kick the ball away from them. Not a redeeming quality about the man, as he even attempted to buy the WWF Title.

How does any of this relate with regards to Dolph Ziggler? At the Payback PPV, WWE attempted the "double turn" by turning Alberto Del Rio heel, and Dolph Ziggler face. In some aspects, it worked. Del Rio looked ruthless by repeatingly targeting Ziggler's recently concussed head, and he confirmed his heel turn the next night with a scathing promo on the fans, referring to them as "ignorant pigs". Now, once again, Del Rio looks like the rich, pompous jerk who will do anything to retain the title, complete with a(suspended) manservant of his own.

But what about Ziggler? Did he come out of the PPV looking sympathetic? Sure he did. But what of the follow-up? Pitting Ziggler against heels instead of faces is simply not enough. Beating up on Del Rio multiple times and now 3MB is all well and good, but where is that money promo that solidifies a face turn? Instead of having him wrestle a 3 minute match on Raw against Jinder Mahal, why not use that time for said promo, solidifying his face turn? There's the sympathetic angle, sure, going into his rematch with Del Rio, one that makes it easy to want to cheer for him and gain revenge. But let's say Ziggler regains the title from Del Rio. What then? What has Dolph Ziggler done, beyond getting kicked in the head numerous times from Del Rio, that makes him likeable in any way?

My argument is simple. Any face reaction that now involves Dolph Ziggler was created by Alberto Del Rio. Nothing more. When Ziggler is done with Del Rio, he's on his own. And sooner rather then later, he's going to need to cut that money promo that solidifies him as a face. There's a reason that John Cena and CM Punk draw. They back up their actions with words, and vice versa. There's money as a babyface in Dolph Ziggler, I believe, so it's time he does the same.

Thoughts on this? Are you satisfied with Dolph Ziggler as a "face" in his current direction, or does he need to do more?
 
I posted this exact topic a day after the "double turn". I didn't get any responses that I could see, but I haven't checked it in a while. To me, it's just lazy writing. The WWE just turns people and just pits them against the opposite alignment. That's not enough. If a person used to be bad and is turned, they need to start exhibiting good qualities to make them likeable. The audience needs to be shown that the character is now a face and exactly why that is. Maybe something like that is coming in the future, but right now, he's still just a heel that gets cheered regardless of his actions.
 
I have always been in favor of turning Dolph face cause honestly I think he has the look of a face more than a heel.

Didn't like the way it was done though. This could of been a good way to make Big E a Monster Heel while turning Dolph face.

I mean, Del Rio simply did to Dolph what Dolph did to Del Rio the night after Wrestlemania. Del Rio even said that in his promo so not sure why they chose this way to turn Dolph face when Dolph commited this same act just a couple short months ago?

Oh well, that is wrestling for ya!
 
I don't agree with you.

Ziggler was already cheered by a lot and we don't need him to do a face promo, I don't want him to pander to everybody. In fact he needs to remain the EXACT same character he was as a heel, that's how he became loved by people, don't change his great cocky persona, just change his alignement like The Rock or Austin did. Most of what changed for those two when they were heels was that they would bash the crowd.

I just don't want Ziggler to become like Punk from face to heel or Orton.
 
I don't agree with you.

Ziggler was already cheered by a lot and we don't need him to do a face promo, I don't want him to pander to everybody. In fact he needs to remain the EXACT same character he was as a heel, that's how he became loved by people, don't change his great cocky persona, just change his alignement like The Rock or Austin did. Most of what changed for those two when they were heels was that they would bash the crowd.

I just don't want Ziggler to become like Punk from face to heel or Orton.

Ziggler reminds me a lot of Mr. Perfect face turn. Still was cocky, calling himself Perfect, but was just more fan friendly I guess you would say.
 
I don't agree with you.
That's your right. :)

Ziggler was already cheered by a lot
.
That didn't make him a face in any way.

and we don't need him to do a face promo, I don't want him to pander to everybody.
Cutting a face promo doesn't necessarily involve pandering. Take John Cena, for example. He consistently says that he won't change for those who dislike him. And yet, he still manages to cut damn fine face promos.

In fact he needs to remain the EXACT same character he was as a heel.
Then he'll still be a heel, will he not?

That's how he became loved by people, don't change his great cocky persona, just change his alignement like The Rock or Austin did. Most of what changed for those two when they were heels was that they would bash the crowd.
At some point, he's going to have to cut a promo. If he wants to be taken seriously as a top star, he needs to talk. His promos in the past have been that of bashing the crowd, stating that he knew he was great regardless of what the crowd thinks of him.

If hes going to be a face, he needs to get away from that persona. Should he still retain the cocky attributes? Absolutely. But he needs to cut a promo of some kind that gets people behind him as a face, not simply cheering his offense.

I just don't want Ziggler to become like Punk from face to heel or Orton.
Nor do I, and part of me believes WWE is unsure of whether or not they want to make Ziggler a face. Part of me believes that once his feud with Del Rio is over, he may go back to being a heel, hence why WWE hasn't truly pulled the trigger on a full face turn.
 
This whole awkward "face" debacle with Ziggler has really had me all hot and bothered- especially from Payback to the end of the RAW 8 days later. I was hoping that they would do something to solidify his turn, so that his title loss would, at the very least, have some worth while character development come out of it.

The problem that I see, right now, is a problem that I see a lot with WWE, although less and less lately, which is why it's disheartening to see it happen to Ziggler. That problem is that the WWE comes off as indecisive. I said the following to my buddy, after the Raw after Payback- "I am worried that they might just have Ziggler come out and wrestle matches without Big E and AJ, like they never happened."

We have a character that has all of this potential energy, expected break ups and expected solidification as a face, but nothing has happened. They are doing the fickle WWE thing- having him come out without AJ and Big E without addressing it. He is a face without addressing it. These are not little problems. They are huge problems. It's like they skipped a bunch of weeks, threw a character into a story without ANY exposition and expects us to like the guy.

My issue is that I do like the guy. All of this BS is extremely hard to watch. I have to wonder what the hell is holding them back? I, still, have to expect SOMETHING to happen down the road a little, possibly at the PPV- but whatever is going to happen, they have been handling it, the past few weeks, incorrectly.
 
The fans criticize the writers as lazy but I'd say the fans are lazy for buying these "turns". LSN80 makes a great point here. Why? Why do we accpet this?

Do any of us in our real life just accept someone as changed or do we demand of ourselves to see some of that change before they get our friendship or love? Ziggler has his own stories to tell - his relationship with AJ, his past with Vickie, his association with Big E, his heelish title wins. Why are we supposed to accept Del Rio's human regression as a parallel to Ziggler's ascent to purity?

Stupid smarks and their stupid desires to control the show and stories allow the WWE to just be lazy. I don't blame them for switching guys like the wind, fans let them get away with it.
 
Stupid smarks and their stupid desires to control the show and stories allow the WWE to just be lazy. I don't blame them for switching guys like the wind, fans let them get away with it.

Right. WWE could have every wrestler come out dressed as big teddy bears and people would continue watching just to fantasize about getting everyone out of the teddy bear costumes in different ways. I wonder whether or not people acted this way during boom periods, as much.
 
On the DVD documentary The Monday Night War, Jim Ross said something to the effect of "We (WWF) did everything we could to make Steve Austin our biggest bad guy. The more heinous he acted, though, the more people cheered. The fans set the market, and as usual, the fans were right."

That's a paraphrasing, but it's true, anyone is free to look it up. The fans know what they want, and they want to cheer for Ziggler. Same thing with Daniel Bryan, let's not give him a pass. They never really turned him face, not in the old school sense. They made him goofier, sure, but even to this day he does and says things that are pompous and sinister, same as when he was World Champion. There are plenty of instances where WWE forces a character on the fans, and there are plenty of instances where the fans force a character on the WWE. The knife cuts both ways, and both have brought their share of successes and failures.
 
On the DVD documentary The Monday Night War, Jim Ross said something to the effect of "We (WWF) did everything we could to make Steve Austin our biggest bad guy. The more heinous he acted, though, the more people cheered. The fans set the market, and as usual, the fans were right."

That's a paraphrasing, but it's true, anyone is free to look it up. The fans know what they want, and they want to cheer for Ziggler. Same thing with Daniel Bryan, let's not give him a pass. They never really turned him face, not in the old school sense. They made him goofier, sure, but even to this day he does and says things that are pompous and sinister, same as when he was World Champion. There are plenty of instances where WWE forces a character on the fans, and there are plenty of instances where the fans force a character on the WWE. The knife cuts both ways, and both have brought their share of successes and failures.

If there is no demand for something, then there is no money in it. There are going to be hiccups, errors, and instances that seem completely trivial, such as Cena to "this audience."
 
I hate Dolph Ziggler as a face. He is clearly better off as a heel. Why should I cheer for this guy? Because he lost his title and I am supposed to feel sorry for him? Dolph Ziggler as a face is akward. This isn't working! Alberto and Dolph should never have double turned in the first place. Alberto was more interesting as a face and Dolph seemed to have found his calling.

Ziggler acted like a jerk onscreen for so many years, and face turns happen all the time. Something crucial is missing though. He has done nothing to make me cheer for him. Nothing! Promos are not his best category, so how is he going to make me care? So what if he's out to steal the show, he did that as a heel and was not the first to do so. I give WWE credit for trying this, but the angle has sucked so far. Either give the fans a reason to cheer for Dolph or make him go back to being a heel.

This might have been done to give him some character development which normally is fine, but what was supposed to help him move forward has instead made Ziggler take massive steps backward. I couldn't care less about him at the moment and I doubt I am alone. That's not going to change until he has that moment that wins the fans over. Crashing Alberto's fiesta came close, but it's going to take more than that and it certainly won't be through a promo. I hope they figure it out before it's too late. I am not satisfied in the slightest. Reverting him back to heel status is inevitable unless they can give the fans a reason to care. The fiesta invasion was a step in the right direction. Dolph's promos are not great compared to most of the other faces so they should have him get over on his actions and show stealing matches. That is their only chance at making this work.
 
Once again the WWE has fucked a face turn & in this case one with significant potential. I'm seriously starting to wonder if it's intentional as a way to protect the golden boy from being outshone. Who was the last person the WWE got over as a face? Seriously? Punk did it by himself and got turned, Bryan is doing it inspite of the WWE and it about to be fed to the golden boy, Ryder did it himself and got buried, Orton got turned by the fans. When did the WWE last successfully manage a turn? They had a perfect start with Ziggler and just haven't shown any commitment since.
 
The problem with a solid Ziggler face turn isn't just what to do with Ziggler: it's also what you're going to have to do with Big E Langston and A.J. as well. Do they go babyface with him? Do they slowly drift apart from one another? Do we have another painful "A.J. get a new boyfriend" angle to suck up air time?

These three don't really form a stable: A.J. and Langston are simply Ziggler's sidekicks. Yes, they've been trying to give those two something to do with this whole Kaitlyn thing, but anytime a Divas' angle starts up I either fast-forward or take a piss.
 
There is a reason they haven't had Ziggler cut a "face" promo -because he can't!

He couldn't as a heel, and it is easier to cut promos as a heel. Yet he needed Vickie and AJ to cut promos for him.

Not being able to cut a promo is okay to some extent. Chris Benoit went a long way without being a maestro on the mike. But it is you people who say that stickwork is the be-all and end-all.

Personally, I thought that Shelton Benjamin had all the makings of a superstar, and put on great matches, but lacked on the mike. You people bagged him and John Morrison, even though they were every bit as good in the ring as Ziggler, and they had the look too, but you wouldn't embrace them, yet you "imagine" Dolph Ziggler to have the stickwork of Shawn Michaels.

Ziggler has no stickwork or personality, so that is why. It isn't some conspiracy by the WWE. It is because your beloved Ziggler (the most over-rated guy in WWE) can't raise above coming across like a mid-card like wrestler.
 
There is a reason they haven't had Ziggler cut a "face" promo -because he can't!

He couldn't as a heel, and it is easier to cut promos as a heel. Yet he needed Vickie and AJ to cut promos for him.

Not being able to cut a promo is okay to some extent. Chris Benoit went a long way without being a maestro on the mike. But it is you people who say that stickwork is the be-all and end-all.

Personally, I thought that Shelton Benjamin had all the makings of a superstar, and put on great matches, but lacked on the mike. You people bagged him and John Morrison, even though they were every bit as good in the ring as Ziggler, and they had the look too, but you wouldn't embrace them, yet you "imagine" Dolph Ziggler to have the stickwork of Shawn Michaels.

Ziggler has no stickwork or personality, so that is why. It isn't some conspiracy by the WWE. It is because your beloved Ziggler (the most over-rated guy in WWE) can't raise above coming across like a mid-card like wrestler.

What IWC are you talking about? As far as I know, the IWC has ALWAYS cared much more about in-ring work than mic skills. Stick work is the end-all, be-all? NEVER have a heard an IWC guy say that in my life.

And Dolph Ziggler's not bad on the mic. He's no Ric Flair, but he won't kill himself with a mic in his hand.
 
You seem to be forgetting that the fans turned Dolph Ziggler. Just like they did to Orton and Punk. If you getting huge pops and cheered everytime you hit a move and win a match, you're not staying a heel for very long.

He doesn't need a face promo, he gets cheered against heels and that's enough for me.
 
He needs to cut some kind face promo. He doesn't have to turn into a full on baby face Dudley Do Right or anything. Just cut a promo on Del Rio and refrain from insulting the fans. Just let people know what your intentions are rather than the random attacks/squash matches that accomplish nothing since the fans that didn't actually see the PPV have no idea that you supposedly turned.
 
I think the IWC misses the big picture here, look at the cheers Ziggler recieved before turning face, look at the pop he recieved the night after Wrestlemania when he won the World Heavyweight Championship. Ziggler could talk all the smack he wants, but its the Edge effect even as a heel he was cheered like a face because he has been there for a while, Smarks know he has great ring ability, and that is why he is cheered.

I think people are mad because his turn wasn't cookie cutter, but then again why should it be? If you expect someone to cut a promo it takes away from a turn. Its the exact reason Cena gets booed week in and week out, its because people expect him to come out and make some rediculous promo about how life is good but we won't falter and that with Hustle Loyalty and Respect R time is now!

I like that they haven't went full reigns with Ziggler, let him attack Del Rio, then attack Jericho in the midst of his turn, let him look like a tweener, and then do something face. Its what we need is to be pulled back and forth before getting behind him, and honestly I think its only a matter of time before we see Ziggler have a 5 star ppv match main event as a face
 
It doesnt make any sense to me. It seems like in the post Attitude Era WWE, creative doesnt think it can pit two heels against each other. I'd say a rivalry is much more about how interesting the storyline is than who the fans will be cheering for but I think WWE's younger viewers might disagree. Even more troubling that the Ziggler face turn is the fact that WWE doesnt think a face Del Rio can hold the title. First of all, Del Rio's worst title run as WWE champion was during a heel run, so the argument that he's more interesting as a heel is invalid. Second, the turn was completely abrupt. There seems to be no logic in this storyline, which is something I can usually forgive given the nature of the business, but there was no reason for either superstars to turn.
 
To be brutally honest, can't we just accept that Dolph's turn is going to be a slow one?

Quite a few people seem to be suffering from Instant-Gratification Disorder (not sure if that's real, but...). Dolph has been getting cheers for quite a while, from the older demographic of fans. The younger (target) audience aren't sold on him being a good guy yet, because they have been "conditioned" to dislike the guy.

I do see the issues with his turn though. Big E and AJ are solidly entrenched in their heel runs, and it clearly hasn't been addressed. Could the suspension of Ricardo Rodriguez, be beneficial for both Del Rio and Ziggler? Money in the Bank, could be the final PPV where we see Dolph with hanger-ons (even though we seem to have been saying it for years now). AJ and Big E could realistically turn on Ziggler, claiming that it's his fault or something idk.

Personally, I'm enjoying the slow turn. In today's WWE, somethings are always rushed. Whether it be title reigns, constant heel/face turns, storylines...

Can't we just sit back and wait for WWE to come up with something that gives us (or the target demographic) reasons for the audience to cheer for Ziggler?

Or could some accept that they will bitch, whine and moan no matter what WWE does, and will boo the Face, cheer the Heel, and feel "cool" while doing it?
 
Now, from what I've heard was a pretty dead crowd at Raw Monday, Dolph was getting decent cheers in his match, and there were as many people that I could see on the video with Ziggler shirts on as with CM Punk shirts on.

If you're getting cheers and selling shirts, you're a face.

But, why don't we just wait to see what happens? Maybe for the time being, the Dolph/AJ/Big E "issue" is not being dealt with because they're dealing with their own business? It's not uncommon in real relationships for drifting away from each other and being different to not be dealt with because people are too busy.

Which AJ and Dolph are right now.

But, with the response, and the fact that his shirts are awesome, I'm happy for Dolph to be the anti-hero/tweener character. I'm enjoying it thus far.
 
Eventually they will have that definitive face moment when they address Ziggler Aj and Big E. It seems that this moment should have happened right after Payback, but...

Could they be stalling because they want a Ziggler/Big E feud? and need Ziggler to finish his Del Rio feud first?
Have Ziggler win back the title AND finally turn against Big E and AJ in the same week. Maybe WWE feels that a possible Ziggler/Big E feud would have lost momentum if they had to wait for the Del Rio angle to finish, and not wanting Ziggler to be involved in both angles at once?
 
Eventually they will have that definitive face moment when they address Ziggler Aj and Big E. It seems that this moment should have happened right after Payback, but...

Could they be stalling because they want a Ziggler/Big E feud? and need Ziggler to finish his Del Rio feud first?
Have Ziggler win back the title AND finally turn against Big E and AJ in the same week. Maybe WWE feels that a possible Ziggler/Big E feud would have lost momentum if they had to wait for the Del Rio angle to finish, and not wanting Ziggler to be involved in both angles at once?

AJ was on commentary for Big E's match against Curt Hawkins on Main Event last night, and she addressed her and Dolph's relationship status, calling them a "power couple" and insinuating that some make-up sex was due. Keeping an AJ breakup/Big E feud in their back pocket is a good move by WWE. It's a built-in, natural feud that can, as you said, help cement him as a face once the Del Rio affair is done with. Even if it loses a little steam between now and when they pull the trigger, a few well-made video packages will get fans on board, and it would be a good platform for Dolph to make some definitively babyface promos.
 
It doesnt make any sense to me. It seems like in the post Attitude Era WWE, creative doesnt think it can pit two heels against each other. I'd say a rivalry is much more about how interesting the storyline is than who the fans will be cheering for but I think WWE's younger viewers might disagree.

I'm one of the older viewers and I disagree. Part of what makes pro-wrestling storylines interesting is that battle between the two opposites of the spectrum. That shade of grey


Even more troubling that the Ziggler face turn is the fact that WWE doesnt think a face Del Rio can hold the title. First of all, Del Rio's worst title run as WWE champion was during a heel run, so the argument that he's more interesting as a heel is invalid.

I don't think De Rio as a heel is what hurt his WWE Championship run. It was the fact that they put the belt on him RIGHT at the beginning of CM Punk's breakthrough to stardom.

Second, the turn was completely abrupt. There seems to be no logic in this storyline, which is something I can usually forgive given the nature of the business, but there was no reason for either superstars to turn.

I will agree that from a storyline standpoint, it was rather abrupt. But as far as business, there absolutely was a reason for a double turn.

1) Ziggler was getting a solid pop and even cheers after his MITB cash-in.

2) When someone gets that kind of pop as a heel, turn them babyface and watch the merchandise sell (babyfaces typically sell more merch than heels).

3) They couldn't take Ziggler out of the WHC picture, so they turned Del Rio heel simultaneously.

4) Although I personally liked Del Rio's babyface run, he is MUCH better as a heel.
 

Users who are viewing this thread

Members online

No members online now.

Forum statistics

Threads
174,826
Messages
3,300,734
Members
21,726
Latest member
chrisxenforo
Back
Top