Credibility restored to the WWE title by...The Miz?

[JJYanks121]

Who said anything about lowering the credibilty? I just said he wasn't bringing it back up just by holding it. Even if it was rebuilding credibility through the length of his reign that would have nothing to do with Miz anyway. I find the whole thing hard to believe because on the biggest stage of the year the WWE just booked the title as an afterthought.



Aside from the AA kick out which barely got sold at all in the scheme of the end of the event when hasn't Miz been booked to look exceptionally weak? Sure he is a heel but at practically every turn the booking goes out of its way to show Miz doesn't belong kayfabe. Wouldn't more fluky imply the Miz win was some fluky?



Holy opinions batman!



One clusterfuck match is a build?



Being ahead of Swagger doesn't make you a credible champion. Barely beating a severely weakened opponent doesn't exactly scream I belong. Many thinking he would not even successfully win his cash in opportunity pretty much confirms his "build" was insufficient to be on that level in the eyes of the masses.



This idea that just being in good company is "enough" is how the title lost its credibility to begin with.



No. I do not hate Miz. If I did I would say he is successful. I find him average and probably will cease commenting on him because I haven't been watching him much at all so I admittedly do not have all the info. As a dependable upper mid card guy I see no issue. As one of the main guys I just do not get enough from him. He isn't credible because it takes time to establish such things.

I'm not going to debate you line by line because you didn't do so for me. You picked and chose what would make your ridiculous points and you left out pertinent information that I presented to make yourself sound smarter. Nobody is fooled, least of all me.

I'll give you a couple of more things that you'll probably ignore though:

1) When has Miz not looked extremely weak? How about in every feud he's been in! With both Orton and Cena, he shit-kicked them with sneak attacks to establish himself as a threat. This puts the face on notice and makes them up their game because they want to beat this asshole. Both men did.......but both men came up short. The build for the matches revolved around Miz goading them into it by being a jerk, and then when the match game, Miz weaseled wins out. This is typical heel booking and it's no worse for Miz than for any other heel in history. Even the fucking Undertaker in the Corporate Ministry was booked this way!

2) When you are getting TV time and bringing attention to the belt you are wearing at every turn, you aren't a negative to that belt. The worst thing that a belt can get is lack of attention. Whether you defend it on every show or once a month, if you make mention of the thing, wear it proudly, and if you are a heel brag about it, you are showing that it means something. That's about all you can ask for with a belt.

3) You took out an entire paragraph I wrote, used one line from it in isolation, and used it for your argument. Not cool and very weak. To sell that point again, that "clusterfuck" match still has to be won. There are 8 men in it and you still have to win. On top of that, the "clusterfuck" Miz was in included THREE guys who had previously held the top title. That's not usually the case in these matches but because of the new PPV structure, you are going to get former champions in them. Miz still had to find a way to defeat these men and he did. You can't dispute that no matter how hard you try.

4) In case you haven't noticed, all of this "you can't do it, you don't belong" stuff that gets put on Miz has been his fuel. Hell, his fucking intro video was all about that at Wrestlemania. The song is "hate me now" and it essentially was saying that anyone who has doubted him, anyone who can't see past the Real World, anyone who finds reason to believe that he doesn't belong where he is can kiss his ass because he's there. A big reason that he's there is that he has a character base that is built on wrestling with a chip on his shoulder. He's always working to prove people wrong and he has done so every step of the way. Unlike many in the business, this strong character base is something he never deviates from and it drives one of the most successful characters built in years. THAT character is why he's on top.

5) You said it takes time to establish credibility. So, 5 years isn't enough? He's been on the main roster for over FIVE YEARS! He was built up over a long time and earned every stepping stone, working his ass off at every point, and continued to move up. Just as a comparison, Triple H's 5th year in the business was 2000 when he basically ruled the world in the McMahon/Helmsley Faction. This is a guy that went from Blueblood to DX for two years to corporation and main event to megaheel. He won the IC belt, European belt and worked the midcard for a couple of years, but I'm sure he wasn't credible either. Miz is the one guy who has earned his keep as a heel in the main event because he had to work to get there. You take guys like Sheamus and Barrett who were thrust there and while they both did adequate jobs with the opportunities they were given, neither have the staying power YET of the Miz. Why? LISTEN TO THE FANS! The fans react to the Miz. In this business, that's about all you can ask for. He gets the crowd to react more than almost any superstar. THAT is what gives you credibility in the main event! He is a heel, so if people are willing to pay to see him lose, he is credible. The fans care about the Miz. If you don't believe me, turn on Raw and LISTEN.

Let's end with how this started. You want to argue (blindly since you admit you don't watch WWE much), that Miz's reign hasn't brought credibility to the title in any way. This is a very subjective thing as people view credibility of a title different ways. I will present to you this though. After the title was swapped around for the better part of 2010, it finally fell in the Miz's hands. You had a Sheamus heel reign in the middle that meant nothing at all, but here comes Miz. He beats Orton and the look in his eye said that this belt means everything to him. Since then, he's wrestled everyone that has challenged him and he's beaten them all. On PPVs, he's used nefarious ways to win sometimes but he's a heel. The belt means everything to him and he isn't a face who has morals so he'll take a win any way he can get it. He's also beaten anyone that is seen a "below" him with CLEAN victories over Daniel Bryan, Kofi Kingston, and John Morrison. Basically, you have a guy who only "struggles" with the top two faces in the company and in those guys, he has tried to weaken them before the show and when the time for fighting came, he went toe to toe with them and found a way to win every time. I see no reason to believe that Miz doesn't belong as he's done everything he's needed to do to hold the title proud. Obviously he's impressed management as they let him walk out of Wrestlemania with the title still in tact. For a heel, that rarely happens and this kid did it. As I said earlier (which was ignored), only Triple H and Randy Orton have walked in and walked out with the belt as heels. Now, you have Miz on that list. Everything he's done screams that he's a main eventer to stay. I really can't understand why this is so hard to see.

If you want to continue this argument, I suggest watching the show. You'll see an uber-talented guy on the mic (my opinion but I stand strongly by it) who has an incredible character base and plays it well. He gets a strong reaction from the crowd and the crowd cares about what he says and does. When he comes out, you pay attention. He is the champion and he is the star of the show. He's right there with Orton and Cena and this title reign has proven he belongs there. I still have yet to see a decent argument as to why he doesn't belong other than "he doesn't look like it" or something without basis. He was built slowly, succeeded at every level, got fans to care more and more to the point where the company felt it right to put him in the main event. The kid worked his ass off for 7 years since he signed with WWE and went to developmental. He's killed himself in that time to get to this point. Give the kid his due and watch him make magic. He's truly a special talent.

 

[hollowpoint]

Miz is not in any way a credible champion right now. Will he ever be able to be a credible champ? Maybe. But he still has some work to do. He has a problem of not selling the way he should. I don't know if it's work ethic or ego, but it's a problem. The only thing he has going for him right now is being able to hold heat on himself. But that only lasts so long.

I really think bringing back Alex Riley as Miz's little cohort was pathetic. He was fired from Miz's service, end of story. Almost every match they use him to cheat Miz to victory. This just cheapens every single title defense. Make him do it on his own.

As far as his in-ring, he's got to step his game up. In fact, they need to start up a feud with some old school guys just to force him to step up. A run with Trips will either make him wrestle to his maximum potential or show him for the mid-carder he is right now. I wouldn't mind seeing Hunter get one or two more title shots anyhow.

All my $0.02

I can agree with the whole A. Riley coming back point you made, and his average in ring ability, but the simple fact that they are not passing the WWE Title around like a hot potato like in the past makes it more of a prize each month the Miz holds on to it. He's not a monster heel so his gimmick will probably never win cleanly. I think he's doing a great job at getting heat from the fans, I just wish he would get off the whole, I told you so, gimmick and get back to the classic, "you are not worthy of my presence" type heel. The longer he holds on to it, the more epic it becomes when a face finally takes it away from him.

The fact of the matter is WWE trust's him to carry the title so he's getting the rub from everyone from the top down. A win is a win in the WWE so the more he stacks them up and performs at a high level, the more credible he becomes. I personally think he cemented himself as a main event guy at WM and, although I'm not a fan, I hope it pans out. The WWE is hurting for Upper Echelon Superstars right now.

 

[DarkLordFett]

I can agree with the whole A. Riley coming back point you made, and his average in ring ability, but the simple fact that they are not passing the WWE Title around like a hot potato like in the past makes it more of a prize each month the Miz holds on to it. He's not a monster heel so his gimmick will probably never win cleanly. I think he's doing a great job at getting heat from the fans, I just wish he would get off the whole, I told you so, gimmick and get back to the classic, "you are not worthy of my presence" type heel. The longer he holds on to it, the more epic it becomes when a face finally takes it away from him.

The fact of the matter is WWE trust's him to carry the title so he's getting the rub from everyone from the top down. A win is a win in the WWE so the more he stacks them up and performs at a high level, the more credible he becomes. I personally think he cemented himself as a main event guy at WM and, although I'm not a fan, I hope it pans out. The WWE is hurting for Upper Echelon Superstars right now.

I do see your point. And it's perfectly valid. You're right about the "I told you so" bit. It's very stale and very weak. It seems to work with the smarmy look he pulls off so well, so that may be why it keeps getting used. I don't like the title being handed around every PPV or two, but I don't think Miz really deserves the same breath as the legends and HOF'ers that have held the title.

You're spot on with the lack of upper end talent. If the rumors are true, the depth chart on both rosters will be thinned out even more. They really need to find the talent to step it up and fill in the top spots. Maybe it's time to kill the brand extension and combine the rosters again.

 

[Newman]

Does the Miz's win add credibility to the WWE title?

No, the words "WWE Championship" has credibility itself. Miz adds nothing extraordinary to the strap. If anything, the WWE Championship adds credibility to The Miz. Without it, Miz would be just another guy who is great on the mic, but not enough credibility. The WWE Championship helps to add credibility to a superstar not the other way around.

Is The Miz a legit champion now that he has a WM title defense under his belt?

You have to define the term "Legit Champion", but I think I comprehend what you are trying to say. I have to say Yes, he is the 1st champion to cling on to the title for a while like you mentioned, and he is the 1st heel to walk out of a Wrestlemania main event victorious since the very same man, Triple H did the same back in WM2000. Whether he is winning it clean or dirty, it doesn't really matter, the important factor is that he beat John Cena in the main event of the Grandest Stage Of Them All, that is something the likes of HHH, HBK and Batista couldn't achieve, Miz did, he is now a "Legit Champion". Before that, he was messing with the likes of Orton and Lawler, but now he defeats John Cena at Wrestlemania, that is something that is on another level, and The Miz has reached it.

Do you guys see him as someone who could have a lengthy title run like they used to do back in the day?

He is having a lengthy title reign by today's standard, but a run that last for about a year? I highly doubt it is possible. Triple H always had them back in the day, but that was when RAW had no real main eventers until Chris Benoit showed up. Stone had one back in 01, but the InVasion angle was taking place and he even lost at Unforgiven 2001, JBL did it back in 04/05, but that was Smackdown, the "B" show in all honesty, this is RAW, where they have the likes of Cena who still needs a program to work on until a year after and it has been a long time since he was WWE Champion, he could regain the gold at the next PPV. Orton and Punk may win it anytime, the draft may come soon and a Smackdown star could pop in on RAW and just win it.

Either way, I don't see Miz getting a run that last for a year or so, the Championship have elevated Miz already, he will be a fixture in the main event picture, I see him dropping the Championship sooner rather than later.

 

[#1HEEL]

I'll be diplomatic here.

Is Miz credible, no. But he is getting there. He was being cheered on raw this week when he was in the ring with Austin.

Like it or not, we all know that Cena is the golden haired boy of the WWE. He'll be a 25 time champion when he retires. Miz beat Cena at Wrestlemania, it doesn't matter how its all scripted, fact is - WWE decided to have the Miz win.

I believe that Miz will start getting clean victories soon. That he will beat Cena some how at Extreme Rules.

Credibility, how to you judge what is or is not credible?

Mike Mizanin is on a talk show every single week flashing his WWE championship off, constantly being talked aboiut on TMZ. Is he not credible with that being the case?

Miz must be one of the most recognisable faces of wrestling currently. Face of the WWE? Well he is representing the WWE consistently in multiple forms of media.

You all forget that wrestling is scripted and somebody is booked to look a certain way. Look at Orton, he wipes the floor with anyone he wrestles. Previously however, he was made to look weak generally, some flurries of excellence but generally he wrestled heelish. If Miz is booked strong, he will definately look strong because he can hang in there with these guys.

 

[TWJC: The Beginning]

Awesome post Patriot. If title matches were always won cleanly they'd be boring as shit. Miz is giving the title all sorts of credibility. He's a top 4 most over guy on the regular roster and he can carry a feud with anyone. His matches are average at worst and if he's in there with a vet they can be great.

 

[hollowpoint]

Does the Miz's win add credibility to the WWE title?

No, the words "WWE Championship" has credibility itself. Miz adds nothing extraordinary to the strap. If anything, the WWE Championship adds credibility to The Miz. Without it, Miz would be just another guy who is great on the mic, but not enough credibility. The WWE Championship helps to add credibility to a superstar not the other way around.

In the earlier years during the lengthy title reigns I would tend to agree, but before the Miz had it, the WWE Championship was tossed around like a hot potato. Shemaus had it twice, Orton had it twice, Cena had it twice. All in the span of about 6-7 months. Not saying the Miz "adds anything to the strap" but only makes it worth winning since he's held it in what seems to be a lengthy reign. Im just glad they stopped treating it like it was the Hardcore Title from back in the day. It makes it more valuable. I say let him somehow get through the EC and MITB and make it all the way to SS. This sets the WWE up for the Ultimate babyface victory moment.

 

[shattered dreams]

Shattered Dreams, how do you feel about him getting a ton of heat and everyone in the audience to react to his stuff? Plus being pretty safe in the ring.

Would Michael Cole add credibility to the belt if he had a lengthy reign? Anyone can get over with the WWE crowd if they book them in a spot long enough. Miz isn't even necessarily that purely over as a heel. If he was I would give him more credit. Aside from cheap heat lines he usually gets a mixed reaction recently on the mic from what I have seen.

Being safe in the ring is irrelevant to my enjoyment of a program (if he did get a concussion this would be interesting timing for you to bring this up). Same with "hard work" on the appearance circuit or dependable or whatever. That is my main problem with the Miz. The reasons he appears to be getting the opportunity are not directly related to things that entertain me as a viewer. They are more related to things that make sense for business. There is nothing wrong with that and it makes sense when your audience will continually accept what you force on them.

JJ, what is it that I am saying that is so ridiculous?

1) When has Miz not looked extremely weak? How about in every feud he's been in! With both Orton and Cena, he shit-kicked them with sneak attacks to establish himself as a threat. This puts the face on notice and makes them up their game because they want to beat this asshole. Both men did.......but both men came up short. The build for the matches revolved around Miz goading them into it by being a jerk, and then when the match game, Miz weaseled wins out. This is typical heel booking and it's no worse for Miz than for any other heel in history. Even the fucking Undertaker in the Corporate Ministry was booked this way!

Sneak attacks do not make you look weak? Anyway, being booked like a TYPICAL heel does not build credibility. Being a typical anything is at best a wash. You have to stand out to make something grow. Miz does not stand out in any special way and that is his biggest problem when it comes to being one of the main guys.

2) When you are getting TV time and bringing attention to the belt you are wearing at every turn, you aren't a negative to that belt. The worst thing that a belt can get is lack of attention. Whether you defend it on every show or once a month, if you make mention of the thing, wear it proudly, and if you are a heel brag about it, you are showing that it means something. That's about all you can ask for with a belt.

No, just being there doesn't necessarily mean anything. The WCW Championship probably never had more attention brought to it than when David Arquette won it. It was still a negative. Just wearing the belt and defending it is something every champ does. Since when is this discussion about not being a negative anyway? That is pretty far removed from being some great positive.

3) You took out an entire paragraph I wrote, used one line from it in isolation, and used it for your argument. Not cool and very weak. To sell that point again, that "clusterfuck" match still has to be won. There are 8 men in it and you still have to win. On top of that, the "clusterfuck" Miz was in included THREE guys who had previously held the top title. That's not usually the case in these matches but because of the new PPV structure, you are going to get former champions in them. Miz still had to find a way to defeat these men and he did. You can't dispute that no matter how hard you try.

Look at all those wrestlers Del Rio "defeated" in the royal rumble. Did wonders for his credibility ... Oh wait it flamed out quickly and damaged the credibility of winning the rumble. How much credibility does one 8 man match really give you?

When you not long ago tapped a midcard title away, had significant trouble with Jerry Lawler and had your title constantly overshadowed by the other two people involved at wrestlemania it just isn't helping that much that you get some typical heel victories over big names here and there. A lot of Miz's reign has been booked like they are scared to give him the chance to show if he actually can stick as the guy. That doesn't help credibility for me.

4) In case you haven't noticed, all of this "you can't do it, you don't belong" stuff that gets put on Miz has been his fuel. Hell, his fucking intro video was all about that at Wrestlemania. The song is "hate me now" and it essentially was saying that anyone who has doubted him, anyone who can't see past the Real World, anyone who finds reason to believe that he doesn't belong where he is can kiss his ass because he's there. A big reason that he's there is that he has a character base that is built on wrestling with a chip on his shoulder. He's always working to prove people wrong and he has done so every step of the way. Unlike many in the business, this strong character base is something he never deviates from and it drives one of the most successful characters built in years. THAT character is why he's on top.

He isn't bad at character. Does he really have that mainstream appeal? I have my doubts but it could happen. The idea that it already has happened is what I would tend to call ridiculous. I do not see one shred of hardworker in how his character is actually booked kayfabe. His backstory, which is about the only thing he knows how to go off script about ( a big reason I have a hard time seeing him as great on the mic), just doesn't fit his character. If you could tie them in together better then I might agree but they just do not work together.

5) You said it takes time to establish credibility. So, 5 years isn't enough? He's been on the main roster for over FIVE YEARS! He was built up over a long time and earned every stepping stone, working his ass off at every point, and continued to move up. Just as a comparison, Triple H's 5th year in the business was 2000 when he basically ruled the world in the McMahon/Helmsley Faction. This is a guy that went from Blueblood to DX for two years to corporation and main event to megaheel. He won the IC belt, European belt and worked the midcard for a couple of years, but I'm sure he wasn't credible either. Miz is the one guy who has earned his keep as a heel in the main event because he had to work to get there. You take guys like Sheamus and Barrett who were thrust there and while they both did adequate jobs with the opportunities they were given, neither have the staying power YET of the Miz. Why? LISTEN TO THE FANS! The fans react to the Miz. In this business, that's about all you can ask for. He gets the crowd to react more than almost any superstar. THAT is what gives you credibility in the main event! He is a heel, so if people are willing to pay to see him lose, he is credible. The fans care about the Miz. If you don't believe me, turn on Raw and LISTEN.

Did they not react to Barrett just months ago? Sheamus a year before that? Those of us that said Barret was not an established main eventer yet were derided by many not long ago. Look how quickly we were proven right. Yes, Miz was somewhat built up on the undercard. However, that is different from being built in the main event scene. He is still very new there. This "staying power" is purely hypothetical at this point. It might happened, however, until it actually does he isn't established there and it is hard for a first timer to bring a lot of credibility to something like the main title. Miz is still working on his own main event credibility. Taking some baby steps in the right direction is a far cry from already being there. The belt is a prop to give Miz the credibility he lacks. It may eventually build to something but that simple fact shits all over the idea that Miz is giving the belt increased credibility.

 

[billm75]

Miz has had some very decent matches of late. Prior to WM, he was invovled in quite a few matches where he came out kicking ass and taking names. Then when he got surprised by the opponent, his heel sidekicks jump in and make the save.

That's classic heel wrestling. Miz isn't a huge guy, never will be without the aid of steroids, and that's OK. If he was Batista's size and cheating to win, that would just simply piss people off. "Why's he cheating when he's clearly the bigger man?" BUT, when you're Miz's size and build, and you cheat to win that truly ENRAGES the crowd. "This little shit basically stole the title in the first place, and everytime they're about to win it from him, he cheats to keep it. I can't wait till someone else takes it and wipes that smug look off his stupid face!!!!"

Which heat is more effective? The Miz heat. Sure, a big buy cheating is terrible, but when a little guy who is presumed to "not deserve" it in the first place, not only has the title, but continues to cheat to keep it? That gets people watching, because they want to witness the exact moment he gets whats coming to him.

Miz = Credible. Miz = Legitimate. Both with the qualifier of being a heel.