Cena Region, Leeds Subregion, First Round: (6) Harley Race vs. (27) Giant Baba

[HBK-aholic]

This is a first round match in the Cena Region, Leeds Subregion. It is a standard one on one match. It will be held at the First Direct Arena in Leeds, England.

#6. Harley Race

Vs.

#27. Giant Baba


​

Polls will be open for three days following a one day period for discussion. Voting will be based on who you feel is the greater of the two competitors. Post your reasons for why your pick should win below. Remember that this is non-spam and the most votes in the poll win. Any ties will be broken by the amount of posts of support for each candidate, with one vote per poster.


Also remember that this is a non-spam forum. If you post a response without giving a reason for your selection, it will be penalized for spam and deleted

 

[NSL]

I'm ready to throw all my weight behind Race, even though I am fully aware of Baba's career and accomplishments. I'm going to reserve stating an official vote, until someone else decides to chime in and persuade me, but damn this would be a hell of a match just about anywhere on the globe.

 

[Richard Blonoff]

Wikipedia tells me that Baba's popularity in Japan rivaled that of Hogan in the States. That is a pretty lofty accolade.

Seriously though, I know Baba was about as popular as Inoki, one of the few Japanese wrestlers I can name without thought, so he was a big deal, but I'm gonna go Race do to the sheer number of big name stars here in the US that Race inspired. I bet this would be a stiff affair, but Race slays the giant.

 

[Bernkastel]

Baba has defeated Race in Japan before, for the NWA title no less, and he's a former 3 time NWA champion. But those reigns were purely political and were used to further his image and reputation. Inoki wasn't allowed to be an official member of the NWA even though NJPW was apart of it, and that was because Baba was on the board of directors. Baba was definitely more popular than Inoki starting out. Inoki arguably didn't branch out and fully eclipse Baba until the 80's. And Baba had access to all of the NWA's top stars in the 70's, and faced Bruno and Verne Gagne as well. Along with Race, Baba also holds wins over Dory Funk, Jack Brisco, Gene Kiniski, and Andre the Giant. And due to his standing in the NWA a match between him and Race in the States wouldn't have been an auto-Race victory either.

Really the match could go either way seeing as a match in Leeds would be neutral for both men. Race did the honors for Baba before and he might again, so I'm leaning with Baba on this one.

 

[NSL]

Baba has defeated Race in Japan before, for the NWA title no less, and he's a former 3 time NWA champion. But those reigns were purely political and were used to further his image and reputation.

You mean to tell me the NWA was all about politics? No way!

Like I said, I'm open to being convinced here, and you do have a compelling argument for Baba. I know this wouldn't be an easy win for either guy, and would main event some high profile cards, but it's such a flip of the coin, that I think it's way too early for anyone to say one wins over the other, at least not definitively.'

The fact that even you have a hard time saying "This guy wins", proves that it's going to be a long debate here.

 

[Bernkastel]

That was my line of thought. Baba had a lot of clout in the NWA at his peak, and was very well respected. Many American champions put over Japanese wrestlers by dropping titles to them, and promoters often pushed Japanese wrestlers in the States pretty well. Baba himself squaring off against both Buddy Rogers and Bruno in the States in his early career for their respective world titles, albeit losing both times, but the fact that he headlined with them spoke volumes to his popularity and reputation.

And the location is neutral to both guys so really it's a coin flip.

 

[FunKay the Inevitable]

Its not that much of a coin flip really. Baba, as mentioned previously, booked himself, in his own territory to be the big star. He got to that position because he's essentially the Japanese Andre: a massive man with freak-show style drawing power and charisma. Problem is Baba almost exclusively wrestled as a winning major star in Asia.

As Ech himself has pointed out, Baba lost his major North American matches, while Race did compete around the globe as NWA World Heavyweight Champion, defending it on every continent and in major markets all around the planet, including right here...in the United Kingdom (not sure about Leeds specifically).

Don't misunderstand me, Giant Baba is a massive star in his own right, huge. Should be seeded higher. But that ain't the case and he's come up against one of the all time greats of the game, a man who is tougher than a two dollar steak and meaner than Clint Eastwood on viagra. Harley's a world warrior, loved a revered for being a real world's champion and respected across oceans and borders.

We aren't in Japan and Race is probably the bigger star anyway, so I've got to give it to Harley.

 

[enviousdominous]

I promise that I force myself to do at least ten minutes of research before voting for someone.

We're talking about an era where being "great" meant being powerful. Giant Baba was great in terms of his influence, but I have a very difficult time sitting through one of his matches. Maybe I've been spoiled by all the obnoxious pizazz of modern prowrestling, but I find myself fast-forwarding through most of his matches. His potential to win isn't diminished by my sophomoric perspective, but how well I'm entertained is a slight amount of influence that can make all the difference.

I am a huge mark on behalf of Harley Race. Harley Race was the kind of guy who you just couldn't dominate. At the very top of the list of prowrestlers I respect, you'll find Harley Race. Harley Race taught respect to people like Stan Hansen, Bruiser Brody, Hulk Hogan and Ric Flair. The one man everyone knew they could not fuck with was Harley Race, and with that reputation Harley Race was one of the nicest and most humble performers in the industry. I highly recommend looking up some Harley Race interviews on Youtube, you will not be disappointed.

Both men are quiet professionals, but Harley Race is the guy who doesn't lose unless he wants to. I don't see Harley Race allowing himself to lose in the first round to anybody, my vote is for Harley Race.

 

[Bernkastel]

Its not that much of a coin flip really. Baba, as mentioned previously, booked himself, in his own territory to be the big star. He got to that position because he's essentially the Japanese Andre: a massive man with freak-show style drawing power and charisma. Problem is Baba almost exclusively wrestled as a winning major star in Asia.

As Ech himself has pointed out, Baba lost his major North American matches, while Race did compete around the globe as NWA World Heavyweight Champion, defending it on every continent and in major markets all around the planet, including right here...in the United Kingdom (not sure about Leeds specifically).

Don't misunderstand me, Giant Baba is a massive star in his own right, huge. Should be seeded higher. But that ain't the case and he's come up against one of the all time greats of the game, a man who is tougher than a two dollar steak and meaner than Clint Eastwood on viagra. Harley's a world warrior, loved a revered for being a real world's champion and respected across oceans and borders.

We aren't in Japan and Race is probably the bigger star anyway, so I've got to give it to Harley.

Except those losses occurred before Baba became a well respected member in the NWA. I just noted those matches to point out that he was already very popular before that. This match takes place in Leeds, England. Which does nothing to give any sort of advantage to either men. On paper, Race did jobs for Baba in the past, so why wouldn't he do so again in a neutral territory for both? If the match was in a US state that Race was significant in like Kansas, it would be his win. But it isn't. And you can't just assume that the match would automatically be Race's just because it doesn't take place in Japan.

 

[nightmare]

Going for Harley Race in this one. Down and dirty beats politics for me. Baba is well respected and great in his own right, but he has no pull in this tournament like he would normally. Race takes this one. Close, but he can handle the giant.

 

[OYDK]

I believe these men are 2-2 against each other with all 4 matches coming from Japan. Quite frankly, Race wins this match anywhere other than Japan. I know it's probably not the best argument, but Baba was a huge star in Japan whereas Race was a star around the world. Since this match takes place in England, Harley comes out on top to a nice pop.

 

[Bernkastel]

I believe these men are 2-2 against each other with all 4 matches coming from Japan. Quite frankly, Race wins this match anywhere other than Japan. I know it's probably not the best argument, but Baba was a huge star in Japan whereas Race was a star around the world. Since this match takes place in England, Harley comes out on top to a nice pop.

I already pointed out that Baba was a star around the world as well. It wasn't just in Japan that he was known. He had every bit the name recognition that Inoki and Rikidozan had worldwide. I have yet to see anyone make a compelling argument as to why the match location in England favors one man over the other. Because quite frankly it really doesn't.

Their records being 2-2 makes this match even more down the middle than it was before.

 

[OYDK]

I already pointed out that Baba was a star around the world as well. It wasn't just in Japan that he was known. He had every bit the name recognition that Inoki and Rikidozan had worldwide. I have yet to see anyone make a compelling argument as to why the match location in England favors one man over the other. Because quite frankly it really doesn't.

Their records being 2-2 makes this match even more down the middle than it was before.

Just looked it up, your right. Baba has actually beaten Harley Race in America for the PWF Heavyweight title. Hm, this makes it much more interesting.

 

[The_Misson]

These two are both amazing competitors who are both HUGE figures in wrestling history. On one hand you have Harley Race the 8 time NWA champ and legend. On the other hand you have Giant Baba who pretty much raised up one of the greatest Japanese promotions which at one time was the leading promotion in Japan. However, after saying all that past matches show that Giant Baba whoops Harley's ass most of the time. As has already been stated these two exchanged the NWA title in four different occasions ending with a 2v2 record. However, that is not the only time these two have fought. In fact these two are quite familiar with each other. Here's a list of a few more times each these two have fought and the location of the matches

9/13/73 Baba beats Race in a best of 3 falls match in Japan
1/27/74 Baba beats Race in best of 3 falls match in Japan
1/29/75 Baba beats Race in best of 3 falls match in Japan
3/17/77 Double count out Amarillo TX
6/14/77 Time Limit Draw in a best of 3 falls match ends in 1:1 in Japan
1/18/78 Baba beats Race in Japan in 3 falls match. Last fall via DQ in Japan
5/9/79 Time Limit Draw in Best of 3 falls match in Japan
2/15/81 Baba beats Race in best of 3 falls in Japan. Last fall via DQ
10/26/82 Race beats Baba in Japan
11/02/82 No contest double DQ in Japan
2/11/83 Baba beats Race in St. Louis
4/20/83 No contest double count out in Japan

These were all the matches I could find and I think it's quite clear that Baba wins. Factor in the NWA title switches and the clean win loss record for Baba vs Race is 6 to 3. In straight up victories Baba is ahead 8 to 3. I think it's quite clear Baba would once again beat Race. The man simply has the win advantage and has even beaten Race in his own territory.

 

[Sai the Uganda Guy]

Both men had outstanding careers, Race being the eight-time NWA Champion and inagurual NWA U.S. Champion, while Baba held the former title three times. Giant Baba, however, is arguably AJPW's Hulk Hogan in his prime, and has the better record in his meetings with Race. In spite of Harley's own legacy, as I see it Baba is the better man.
Vote Giant Baba.

 

[FunKay the Inevitable]

I already pointed out that Baba was a star around the world as well. It wasn't just in Japan that he was known. He had every bit the name recognition that Inoki and Rikidozan had worldwide. I have yet to see anyone make a compelling argument as to why the match location in England favors one man over the other. Because quite frankly it really doesn't.

Did Giant Baba ever wrestle in the UK? Not to my knowledge, but perhaps you can shine a light here? Has Harley Race. Yes. Has he wrestled in big matches in the UK? Yes. Has he been in World Heavyweight Championship matches in the UK? Yes. Harley Race therefore knows what to expect. Giant Baba does not, ergo, Race has the advantage via location.

It is perhaps ignorant to suggest that if it isn't in Japan then Baba should lose, but it isn't ignorant at all to say that if he's never been here then he would quite feasibly be booked to lose. In the Western world, Harley Race is going to be seen as a bigger draw and if you stuck these two in a match in this situation on a house show in the UK, you'd more than likely want a guy who's going to be sticking around the western hemisphere more than one tour to pick up the big 'w'.

That's the factor I'm using to split this one and its sound enough.

 

[Bernkastel]

Did Giant Baba ever wrestle in the UK? Not to my knowledge, but perhaps you can shine a light here? Has Harley Race. Yes. Has he wrestled in big matches in the UK? Yes. Has he been in World Heavyweight Championship matches in the UK? Yes. Harley Race therefore knows what to expect. Giant Baba does not, ergo, Race has the advantage via location.

I cross checked my sources as well as scoured Cagematch's database for some kind of record but I have turned up nothing. Race has won 4 different major world titles in his career, the NWA world title, the WWA world title, the WWC world title out of Puerto Rico, and the PWF world title out of Japan. None of them show a defense, a win, or even him competing in the UK. So I'd like to call out your source as I can't confirm it. It definitely gives your argument credibility though, if true.

 

[NSL]

Its not that much of a coin flip really. Baba, as mentioned previously, booked himself, in his own territory to be the big star. He got to that position because he's essentially the Japanese Andre: a massive man with freak-show style drawing power and charisma. Problem is Baba almost exclusively wrestled as a winning major star in Asia.

As Ech himself has pointed out, Baba lost his major North American matches, while Race did compete around the globe as NWA World Heavyweight Champion, defending it on every continent and in major markets all around the planet, including right here...in the United Kingdom (not sure about Leeds specifically).

Don't misunderstand me, Giant Baba is a massive star in his own right, huge. Should be seeded higher. But that ain't the case and he's come up against one of the all time greats of the game, a man who is tougher than a two dollar steak and meaner than Clint Eastwood on viagra. Harley's a world warrior, loved a revered for being a real world's champion and respected across oceans and borders.

We aren't in Japan and Race is probably the bigger star anyway, so I've got to give it to Harley.

I've officially been convinced. If there's anything I hate most in wrestling, it's self bookers. I was down the line, somewhere around 51-49 to vote for Race, and was willing to be swayed, but there has to be a deciding factor, and this is it.

 

[Bernkastel]

I've officially been convinced. If there's anything I hate most in wrestling, it's self bookers. I was down the line, somewhere around 51-49 to vote for Race, and was willing to be swayed, but there has to be a deciding factor, and this is it.

In the interest of fairness, self booking only works if you are a huge star already and the best choice to hold your own belt. It's why I let men like Verne Gagne, Misawa, and Inoki have a pass while I hold a lot of disdain for Jeff Jarrett. I don't think it should be a strike against Baba as he did step aside when it was finally his time to step aside.

 

[Tastycles]

I'm sure these fought a few times and I'm sure it probably generally went with home advantage, but neither has that here. I guess for me it comes down to the fact that Baba was a bigger deal in his home market than Race was. That's not a neg on Race, just a fact that I don't care about Japanese wrestling at all and I know a fair bit about Baba. I think it's probably one that could go either way, but Baba seems to be the more logical choice.