Can you get over in WWE just by being a great wrestler?

[Psykohurricane55]

I was listening to a raw review show this week and after their review of the richochet/robert roode match they brought up this subject, mostly because despite being a awesome wrestler, ricochet get no reaction from the live crowd.

So i thought this was a great point to bring to this forum, Can a wrestler get over on the main roster based only on being a great wrestler? I don't think so. I always felt like WWE was more about characters then actual wrestlers. If you look at the history of WWE, you had great wrestlers but all of them had a personality that get you interested in what they were doing. If you were only a great wrestler with the personality of a door mat, you wouldn't last in WWE.

The Main thing is that Since NXT became what it bacame, they kinda forgot what the prime objective was for the brand. They bring in a ton of indy guys and pretty much let them continue the way they were doing thing on the indy's without putting any effort in the character development. Yes they have great matches but when they come up to the main rosters, it makes it harder to create a good storyline for them because you know absolutely nothing about them outside of the fact that they are good wrestlers. On the other end when they have a homegrown talent like velveteen dream, they put a ton of efforts into the whole presentation and it shows the difference as the guy stands out from the pack.

WWE really need to go back to what they do best and that's creating characters and simple storytelling if they want to survive.

 

[Ebony Avalanche]

Things in WWE have gone way out of whack. You speak about getting over as just a great wrestler, they only want characters on mic. In ring talent does not seem to matter. I remember the days of Ric Flair and Dusty Rhodes where the promos were so intense and then the matches would be killer as well. Now what do we have? Jinder Mahal and Xavier Woods as the bad asses! Are you kidding me? And the women are even worse! Last night, I saw Ember Moon job out to Mandy Rose. Asuka loses to Smarmella, And WTF? Lacey Evans possibly winning the Raw women's title instead of Ruby Riott, Charlotte, Ember Moon, Asuka, Io Shirai, Rhea Ripley, Toni Storm or Shayna Baszler. Talk about character only! She was a jobber in NXT and she has not improved past all these other wrestlers, (I know I didn't mention Banks or Bayley but that was intentional).I need to have talent at characterization and inside the ring to really enjoy a show any more.

 

[JoeMallard]

Vince doesn't give a rats ass about character development anymore, it's pretty obvious.

 

[d_henderson1810]

I was listening to a raw review show this week and after their review of the richochet/robert roode match they brought up this subject, mostly because despite being a awesome wrestler, ricochet get no reaction from the live crowd.

So i thought this was a great point to bring to this forum, Can a wrestler get over on the main roster based only on being a great wrestler? I don't think so. I always felt like WWE was more about characters then actual wrestlers. If you look at the history of WWE, you had great wrestlers but all of them had a personality that get you interested in what they were doing. If you were only a great wrestler with the personality of a door mat, you wouldn't last in WWE.

The Main thing is that Since NXT became what it bacame, they kinda forgot what the prime objective was for the brand. They bring in a ton of indy guys and pretty much let them continue the way they were doing thing on the indy's without putting any effort in the character development. Yes they have great matches but when they come up to the main rosters, it makes it harder to create a good storyline for them because you know absolutely nothing about them outside of the fact that they are good wrestlers. On the other end when they have a homegrown talent like velveteen dream, they put a ton of efforts into the whole presentation and it shows the difference as the guy stands out from the pack.

WWE really need to go back to what they do best and that's creating characters and simple storytelling if they want to survive.

Bret "Hitman" Hart was no maestro on the mike, and relied on his brilliant ringwork to get over. Yet he was one of the most pushed guys in the mid-90's in WWF.

Before his unspeakable crime, Chris Benoit was massively respected for his matches over two decades, whether they were in Japan, WCW or WWE. Dean Malenko was also respected for his world-class matches. Neither were great on the mike.

Andre The Giant was one of the most revered figures in wrestling history, and people bought tickets just to see him, yet he could barely speak English, and got where he did on his size.

Kane got over wearing a mask, teaming with X-Pac, and never speaking. The Undertaker rarely spoke when he first came in WWF, as that was his gimmick, and speaking duties went to Paul Bearer.

Brock Lesnar rarely speaks, and relies heavily on Paul Heyman to get him over. Yet WWE pay him millions to show up eight times a year, and people pop when he gives John Cena 27 German suplexes at "Summerslam", or F5s Roman Reigns.

All these cases are people who weren't known for cutting one memorable promo (please, tell me a memorable promo any of these guys ever cut), but got by on extraordinary ring work or their massive size.

So their size, ringwork or being surrounded by others who can carry the story, these people were respected (and in the case of all but Benoit, their legacies are still respected) despite not being a world-class spokesman.

 

[FromGlasgowScotland]

I don't believe you should be able to get over just on in ring work because it becomes boring and meaningless watching two wrestlers with no personality or gimmick of any kind compete against each other.
I believe you can make up for lack of personality by having great in ring skills but you still need some personality at least otherwise it's just boring.

 

[Psykohurricane55]

Bret "Hitman" Hart was no maestro on the mike, and relied on his brilliant ringwork to get over. Yet he was one of the most pushed guys in the mid-90's in WWF.

Before his unspeakable crime, Chris Benoit was massively respected for his matches over two decades, whether they were in Japan, WCW or WWE. Dean Malenko was also respected for his world-class matches. Neither were great on the mike.

Andre The Giant was one of the most revered figures in wrestling history, and people bought tickets just to see him, yet he could barely speak English, and got where he did on his size.

Kane got over wearing a mask, teaming with X-Pac, and never speaking. The Undertaker rarely spoke when he first came in WWF, as that was his gimmick, and speaking duties went to Paul Bearer.

Brock Lesnar rarely speaks, and relies heavily on Paul Heyman to get him over. Yet WWE pay him millions to show up eight times a year, and people pop when he gives John Cena 27 German suplexes at "Summerslam", or F5s Roman Reigns.

All these cases are people who weren't known for cutting one memorable promo (please, tell me a memorable promo any of these guys ever cut), but got by on extraordinary ring work or their massive size.

So their size, ringwork or being surrounded by others who can carry the story, these people were respected (and in the case of all but Benoit, their legacies are still respected) despite not being a world-class spokesman.

But all theses guys you mentions had something that a lot of current wwe guys don't have and that presence and a personality. Bret never was the greatest promo but when you listened to him, you believed that he was the best wrestler in the world because he believe it. When benoit cut a promo, you believe he was a bad ass.

Andre, kane, taker and all the others monsters type guys didn't need to talk to get there characters over, they were attraction because of they size or had a manager that could carry the load for them. Something being a character is more then just being a good promo, it's also based on the attitude the performers as and if he believe in his character or not.

I look at who's on top in wwe right now, it's all the guys that believe in their characters. Bryan, reigns, styles, rollins, new day, uso's, becky lynch, charlotte and strowman just to name these guys. All are over more for their personality then for the in ring work. They could be the worst wrestlers in the world and it wouldn't matter, because they have presence and fans gravitate more to personalities and characters then to in ring work.

I feel NXT should focus a lot on training those that have great in ring to develop the personality side of their character. Just look at ricochet or johnny gargano for example. 2 guys that are awesome wrestlers but have no personalities. What can you tell about ricochet or gargano outside of they can do awesome moves? Nothing, really and that's why fans that are not familliar with them don't react.

Another perfect example is daniel bryan. When he started, he was just a middle of the road indy wrestlers with no personality. The guy was a great wrestler but nobody was taking to him. Then he won the world title, became a heel. WWE ask him to show more personality and he started the yes chant as a way to annoyed the fans. He got a personality and is popularity slowly took of. When they put him with kane. He was able to tap to his entertainment side of the character a lot more and it got him to the main event level and now he's one of the biggest name in the company. He didn't get over because of his wrestling, he got over with his personality and that's why i feel that you can't get over on great in ring work alone.

 

[George Steele's Barber]

A loud audience reaction is just one way to reflect whether or not a guy is 'over'. Richochet has been on the main roster for a short period of time. He is very over for someone who has been on the main roster for a short period of time with or without character development. Fans that are familiar with him, see him and may not roar or chant but they know that he has a good chance in his match and that he will likely do something exciting. That is being over. Just because fans don't do the Fandango dance or chant "You suck" doesn't mean he is not over.

That being said, if he wants to stay over there needs to be a reason to care about him. They can do this through character development, storytelling, winning, getting cheated, and having him face others that the crowd doesn't want to see succeed. He just isn't in a spot yet where that is necessary.

 

[That Guy From That Thing]

In this era of WWE? Absolutely not.

 

[S.J. Maximus]

Well the issue you bring up is actually a two-pronged issue, because on one hand we're talking about in-ring ability but on the other we talk about NXT call-up development.

To answer your main question, the title of the thread, I'll say yes it is possible (albeit highly unlikely) to get over by just being a great wrestler. Shelton Benjamin comes to mind. Cesaro is probably the best present day example we have, although someone said Brock and that's a great example too. Your response to that other post involving Brock, Kane, and Benoit, saying that they were all people who believed in their characters highlights an entirely different problem altogether: WWE can't develop characters anymore.

They try, but it almost never works. Their idea of giving someone a character is just giving them a weekly promo and a nickname. Becky is "The Man" Roman is the "The Big Dog" and they speak every week but what are they really about? Why are we supposed to get behind them? This bland brand of storytelling has plagued WWE for years now and it's the reason why every time they do anything remotely original like Bray's Firefly Funhouse it gets so much attention - because character development is so scarce in WWE.

Your take on Daniel Bryan hurt me but it's not your fault. Daniel Bryan was the top commodity in pro wrestling outside of WWE when he signed, just like AJ Styles was. They were major stars that people were already loyal to. WWE actually worked really hard on Bryan's character by having him go through all that stuff with the Miz and then AJ Lee and CM Punk and actually did a great job getting heat in the years before Team Hell No. Styles, on the other hand, was just hailed as 'the hottest free agent' and given title reign after title reign so it didn't matter that they didn't focus much on his character. For elite talents like Bryan and Styles it was fine, they both have had Hall of Fame WWE careers, but what about a guy like Tyler Breeze or Apollo Crews?

NXT is actually a great place to develop characters, I have feeling you don't watch the show - which is perfectly fine I don't want much anymore either - but NXT is literally where all of these characters and personalities are created. Everyone gets the vignettes, interview segments, promo time, and storylines to develop a personality that resonates with the audience. The major issue is that the WWE audience has zero idea of any of those things so when anyone is called up they have to start from scratch.

Look back to the history of NXT call-ups and the percentage of failures is nauseatingly high. The Shield worked, but they weren't The Shield in NXT. The legendary Four Horsewomen of Becky, Bayley, Charlotte, and Sasha all eventually had their moments on the main roster but it took them all a while to actually connect and hit because their call-up was so so shitty (anyone remember Submission Sororiety? Team BAD?!). Does anyone even remember Xavier Woods' call-up? The only entity that succeeded in NXT and was seamlessly transitioned to the main roster was the Wyatt Family but I'd attribute that to 6 weeks worth of vignettes before they debuted. Kevin Owens deserves honorable mention because his debut was a defeat of John Cena but immediately after he traded the wins with Cena he dropped quickly before finally connecting with the main audience.

So, if you're concerned about the character/personality/entertainment value of NXT call-ups, let me assure you, that is solely Vince McMahon and his Creative Team's fault. They shouldn't even be calling people up without having an idea for them (i.e. Johnny Gargano and so, so, many others). They are very entertaining performers in NXT, it's just when they get called up WWE ruins them by just throwing them out there. I'd have to say Tyler Breeze is probably the biggest victim of this issue but Bo Dallas could be too.

If you're concerned about the entertainment value of in-ring competition, then that's a less concrete debate because I do think there is a schism between those who watch wrestling for the in-ring stuff vs those who watch it for the over the top personalities. My thought there is that in the end, everything is settled in a ring so as long as they can shine there they should be fine, but WWE has a terrible track record with people who can't speak for themselves. That's usually because they either A) make them speak for themselves or B) put them in meaningless matches. If they had an elite worker and put him/her in matches that made a difference, I think they'd get a tremendous reaction from the crowd.

 

[Psykohurricane55]

i actually agree with all your point but i do feel like sometimes in NXT, they don't let them be improvise with they promo's and put some of themselves in they promo which hurt them a little bit because if they can put a little bit of themselves in non scripted promo, they could use that skill for scripted promo. I use to watch NXT for a long time before i just got sick of it. The thing that i saw the most is that you could pretty much tell how somebody would get book on the main roster by watching how they got booked in NXT. Let's take Tyler Breeze for example. Good Wrestler, really good promo and had a good gimmick, yet is role on the NXT roster was jobber to the stars. So i put myself in Vince Mcmahon and the creative team shoes who don'T watch NXT and just get a report from HHH. They ask how they booked him in NXT, they, we had him go real strong but in the end he would lose most matches especially top tier matches. So in they head they go, comedy heel they job to everybody.

Bo dallas, comedy character all the way during his run as NXT champion, he didn'T lose as much but you can't really do a lot with the character he had even if you did 100 vignettes. So they tried to push him with that dumb gimmick, it didn'T work so they went to another guy and that's been the trend for a while now. The thing is, if you look just look at the NXT characters when they get called up, it's just a continuation of how they got push in NXT. They don't change anything because they thing everybody watch NXT. So when a guy like EC3, who wasn't getting a lot of focus in NXT, comes up, he get stuck on Main event because that how they perceive him.

The other major problem is that they don't now how to maximize their time. They have 3 hours on Raw plus a hour of WWE main event on monday, plus 2 hours on smackdown. Don't be scared to use jobber matches to start new TV feud instead of focusing so much time on the upper card performers. Reigns, Rollins, Kingston, Bryan, Lynch. etc. Don'T need to be on tv in 2 or 3 long segment every week. They are already over, give a chance to a cesaro or EC3 or somebody else in the mid to lower midcard to get over. In might be dating myself with this example but just look at how Koko b. Ware and The bushwhackers were booked in the late 80's. You knew damn well that they were jobbers but everytime you saw them on Superstars or wrestling challenge and they won a jobber match, you believed they were superstar and could win against another superstar. That what they need to do right now, it'S make us believe again that anybody on the roster can win and that by using the time you have to make the lower card guy look like top stars.

A lot of fans have been wanting Vince to finally step aside to give HHH full control of the WWE creative team because of how NXt is booked. I think that even if Vince steps aside and HHH takes control, that nothing will change because they don't need to change in the mcmahons eyes. The only way WWE is going to change they're way is if either a) they get some competitions again or B) somebody buys the company and takes control of the whole thing. Outside of that i don't see anything changing while they're still a Mcmahon in the company.

 

[Rossinater]

Meek Mill said theres levels to this. The same applies to wrestling. You can not get over as a main event talent by just having great skill. You can win the IC belt tag teams us champ but not main event. You can end up being in the main event based upon skill only but you will not stay there. This is the problem with Kofi. He is over as hell but the only way he will stay in the main event is if New Day stays together or if he develops his mic skill. I think Kofi could surprise a lot of people if given the chance with promos. I read somewhere about the idea of having a stable with Paul Heyman at the helm. I think that would be a great idea. In todays WWE yes you can get over with only being a great wrestler but, you wont sell tickets. Kofi is over as hell but he is not selling tickets.

 

[enviousdominous]

Above all, the fans have to be able to believe what they're seeing. What they make of you, is what you end up being.

Some people are just very loud, wearing their emotions like a technicolor dream-coat and projecting their presence like a radioactive peacock. You might end up with a Ric Flair who transcends prowrestling with his inspirational majesty, or you might end up with a Fandango who performs as though he's trying to make a huge ass out of himself.

Some people are just very quiet, being stern stoic professionals that can say a million words with one cold stare. You might end up with an Undertaker who can shock your senses into a frenzy simply by showing up, or you might end up with The Wall who would inexplicably lurk toward nonsensically perceived threats as an odd-ball means of implying that he has a five-second memory.

Types A and B, Introverts and extroverts, professionals and madmen, they all have a place and they can all be mainstay champions. That's why professional wrestling is so much fucking fun. In combat sports, you'll likely pay fifty dollars to watch CM Punk get sat on for two minutes and then have to listen to Joe Rogan shit out of his mouth.

Vince and his Baker Street irregulars can try as hard as they can to make the fans see someone a certain way, but the fans will ultimately decide if what you do works. It doesn't hurt that someone like Ricochet has ten years of experience in the independents.

 

[oneguy]

I was listening to a raw review show this week and after their review of the richochet/robert roode match they brought up this subject, mostly because despite being a awesome wrestler, ricochet get no reaction from the live crowd.

So i thought this was a great point to bring to this forum, Can a wrestler get over on the main roster based only on being a great wrestler? I don't think so. I always felt like WWE was more about characters then actual wrestlers. If you look at the history of WWE, you had great wrestlers but all of them had a personality that get you interested in what they were doing. If you were only a great wrestler with the personality of a door mat, you wouldn't last in WWE.

The Main thing is that Since NXT became what it bacame, they kinda forgot what the prime objective was for the brand. They bring in a ton of indy guys and pretty much let them continue the way they were doing thing on the indy's without putting any effort in the character development. Yes they have great matches but when they come up to the main rosters, it makes it harder to create a good storyline for them because you know absolutely nothing about them outside of the fact that they are good wrestlers. On the other end when they have a homegrown talent like velveteen dream, they put a ton of efforts into the whole presentation and it shows the difference as the guy stands out from the pack.

WWE really need to go back to what they do best and that's creating characters and simple storytelling if they want to survive.

It depends on what your definition of getting over is. Someone who is a really good wrestler can get over with hardcore indy fans. But if they have no personality or character to boot, then they won't get over with anyone else. Characters are what bring a wrestler to life. Who cares if a wrestler is a good wrestler or not if the audience doesn't give a crap about him or his opponent?

Your analysis of NXT is right on. I've been thinking about this a few days now and I wonder how many stars has NXT actually created? Meaning people that came directly from NXT and are now big stars on the main roster. The only one's I can think of are Roman Reigns and Braun Strowman. I'm not sure where most of the females started. But the rest of them like Samoa Joe and Finn Balor gained popularity elsewhere.

WWE needs to just merge NXT with 205 LIve. Get rid of the cruiserweight title and just make it a third brand already. Then they need to start a new development system. One where wrestlers can go in front of a small, non-televised audience, and try out different characters, storylines and pairings etc. See what works and what doesn't work.

 

[Psykohurricane55]

Your right and the funny thing about reigns and strowman is that they barely were on nxt to begin with. Reigns was on nxt tv for i think a month before getting called up as part of the shield and strowman never even wrestled on nxt and his only apparence on nxt tv was a part of the rosebuds with adam rose. So it was easier for them to get over organically since nobody saw them before. You could put alexa bliss, nia jax and in a way charlotte flair on that list as well(even through charlotte got over mostly because of ric) still they aren't indy wrestlers and their stars that wwe made.

I also agree with your idea pf merging nxt with 205 live and them being a third brand as well while starting another developmental system at the same time. Personally, i wouldn't start a new system from scratch and i would instead create a partnership with another promotion like progress and use them as a developmental system, similar to how they would do it since the mid 90's with promotion like memphis, ovw, deep south and fcw.

 

[Dylan]

Nope.. Look at dean malinko compared to Hogan.

 

[pbancroft32]

There are major issues with this argument as these are on the whole the exception to the rule.
Beniot was held back for YEARSSSSS, Malenko never got anywhere and WWE turned him into a total joke, Bret A had a family name and in wrestling that means everything (want proof rock would have been dropped long before while he was rocky mavia if it wasnt for his name) bret had his name his in ring ability and didnt get big till the POOR era.
everyone else you mention have one thing wwe or Vince seems to have an issue with they had managers now brock is litrally the only one with a manager bring back managers top talent who cant talk would still get on and learn. Could you picture roman with a jimmy hart

Bret "Hitman" Hart was no maestro on the mike, and relied on his brilliant ringwork to get over. Yet he was one of the most pushed guys in the mid-90's in WWF.

Before his unspeakable crime, Chris Benoit was massively respected for his matches over two decades, whether they were in Japan, WCW or WWE. Dean Malenko was also respected for his world-class matches. Neither were great on the mike.

Andre The Giant was one of the most revered figures in wrestling history, and people bought tickets just to see him, yet he could barely speak English, and got where he did on his size.

Kane got over wearing a mask, teaming with X-Pac, and never speaking. The Undertaker rarely spoke when he first came in WWF, as that was his gimmick, and speaking duties went to Paul Bearer.

Brock Lesnar rarely speaks, and relies heavily on Paul Heyman to get him over. Yet WWE pay him millions to show up eight times a year, and people pop when he gives John Cena 27 German suplexes at "Summerslam", or F5s Roman Reigns.

All these cases are people who weren't known for cutting one memorable promo (please, tell me a memorable promo any of these guys ever cut), but got by on extraordinary ring work or their massive size.

So their size, ringwork or being surrounded by others who can carry the story, these people were respected (and in the case of all but Benoit, their legacies are still respected) despite not being a world-class spokesman.

There are major issues with this argument as these are on the whole the exception to the rule.
Beniot was held back for YEARSSSSS, Malenko never got anywhere and WWE turned him into a total joke, Bret A had a family name and in wrestling that means everything (want proof rock would have been dropped long before while he was rocky mavia if it wasnt for his name) bret had his name his in ring ability and didnt get big till the POOR era.
everyone else you mention have one thing wwe or Vince seems to have an issue with they had managers now brock is litrally the only one with a manager bring back managers top talent who cant talk would still get on and learn. Could you picture roman with a jimmy hart

 

[pbancroft32]

can you get over with just great in ring work maybe if you have the look as well if you look like brock roman braun it actually doesnt matter what you can or cant do but if you look like ricochat then very doubtful. Vince pushes what he believes still works and that is do you look like hulk if not your a midcarder for life. there are always the very VERY rare exceptions but it takes forever and the fans to outright demand it to make it happen (daniel bryan) but on the whole no being great in the ring doesnt matter and will not get you over not in the sense that counts it can get you over with the crowd in the short term but then vince will give you no tv time or having you losing all the time.
the days of people getting over meaning a push have been gone for a very long time, Bray was one of the most over for years and that was with him being buried in every single feud, dolph got over time and time again to get dropped into a black hole even braun was over massively for the last year and now his a after thought. Talent isnt what matters and hasnt for a long time its all about does vince like you or in charlottes case do you have the right family name

 

[Psykohurricane55]

The main thing now is that it's all about the money. If you're super over with the crowd but that popularity doesn'T translate in profit, Vince will drop the push super quickly. Perfect example is Daniel bryan. They was a passage in bryan's book that talk about is first push with the WWE title that went nowhere. At first, Vince was willing to try and push him to see how the whole thing planned out, he was even schedule to win the title at hell in the cell at one point, but then, Vince look at the merchandise sell number and saw that even with the huge popularity of Bryan, Nobody was buying any daniel bryan merchandise, so vince did was any good business man would do in that situation and he pull the plug for awhile because i made no sense to go and push a character that wasn't selling well.

Vince is as old school as old school gets, He always believe that if you were truly over, that meant that your the reason that live events sell out and that merchandise sell goes up. If you're not selling well as far as merchandise goes then you're not over. That's the old school mentality in vince and sadly that why the company is making as much money as they are right now.