It's Damn Real!
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Before I even set foot with this proposition, please understand my intentions here are not to prove nor to disprove the existence of God, nor are they to condemn the actions, evidence or existence of religion, though that's not to say that through the course of my argument, that may in fact be done, nor is it to say a number of you won't take it that way regardless. Rather, the purpose of this thread is simple to strike a debate based upon the theoretical question of whether or nor [human] morality can exist without God or not.
Most [mono]theists (I would think) would decree that without God and without the bible the infallible and passed down word of God morality as we know it would not exist. I also believe most would contend that without the moralities set forth by the bible and by God, that the human race would be doomed to anarchy, unruliness and primordial and animalistic behaviors and actions. Some of these people believe that without a supervising celestial father-of-all type, humanity would be wolves to one another, and that it is because of that celestial father-of-all that we are not. I whole-heartedly disagree, and I think there is an enormous amount of evidence to the contrary.
Morality, I would affirm, is innate in us altruism, if you will and solidarity in part of our self-interset in society as well as our own individual interests. Is it any wonder that more often than not when you see good person acting wickedly that it's because they're under some type of divine "order" to do so? After all, the very same bible theists contend is our moral basis, is the same book that decrees it's believers kill homosexuals, keep slaves and retain women as lesser beings than men, no? Steven Weinberg in the Freethought Today from April of 2000 put it better than I could when he said "Religion is an insult to human dignity. With or without it you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion."
Take for example the Jihadists of Islam who would give them the idea that blowing themselves up outside an orphanage is an act of morality but the religion they follow? A mother who drowns her child, for example, but does so because "God" told her to is a lunatic in the minds of most people (who think logically), no? What moral influence would have had her do so if not for her religion? Or better yet, what free-thinking human being bears witness to the birth of a beautiful baby girl and thinks to themselves, "Well, taking morality into account, it's necessary for me to remove her clitoris at an early age so she never experiences sexual climax, and as a result is less inclined to be promiscuous" other than their religion that decrees it, that is?
Charles Hitchens put it perfectly when he said "Those who think that there is any connection between ethics and religion have all their work ahead of them."
Not only do I disagree that morality is a derivative of God or the bible, but I would contend that if in fact it were, it would be an abomination that free-thinking and logical humans everywhere should seek to expunge from their future at all cost if they actually expected to live long and prosper into that future free of the superstitious and tribal barbarisms and Bronze-age ethics set forth by the bible. Those, I would allege are the very last thing a 21st century culture based on social equality and freedom of choice should ever base it's moral compass by.
Thoughts on all of this? Can morality exist without God?
Most [mono]theists (I would think) would decree that without God and without the bible the infallible and passed down word of God morality as we know it would not exist. I also believe most would contend that without the moralities set forth by the bible and by God, that the human race would be doomed to anarchy, unruliness and primordial and animalistic behaviors and actions. Some of these people believe that without a supervising celestial father-of-all type, humanity would be wolves to one another, and that it is because of that celestial father-of-all that we are not. I whole-heartedly disagree, and I think there is an enormous amount of evidence to the contrary.
Morality, I would affirm, is innate in us altruism, if you will and solidarity in part of our self-interset in society as well as our own individual interests. Is it any wonder that more often than not when you see good person acting wickedly that it's because they're under some type of divine "order" to do so? After all, the very same bible theists contend is our moral basis, is the same book that decrees it's believers kill homosexuals, keep slaves and retain women as lesser beings than men, no? Steven Weinberg in the Freethought Today from April of 2000 put it better than I could when he said "Religion is an insult to human dignity. With or without it you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion."
Take for example the Jihadists of Islam who would give them the idea that blowing themselves up outside an orphanage is an act of morality but the religion they follow? A mother who drowns her child, for example, but does so because "God" told her to is a lunatic in the minds of most people (who think logically), no? What moral influence would have had her do so if not for her religion? Or better yet, what free-thinking human being bears witness to the birth of a beautiful baby girl and thinks to themselves, "Well, taking morality into account, it's necessary for me to remove her clitoris at an early age so she never experiences sexual climax, and as a result is less inclined to be promiscuous" other than their religion that decrees it, that is?
Charles Hitchens put it perfectly when he said "Those who think that there is any connection between ethics and religion have all their work ahead of them."
Not only do I disagree that morality is a derivative of God or the bible, but I would contend that if in fact it were, it would be an abomination that free-thinking and logical humans everywhere should seek to expunge from their future at all cost if they actually expected to live long and prosper into that future free of the superstitious and tribal barbarisms and Bronze-age ethics set forth by the bible. Those, I would allege are the very last thing a 21st century culture based on social equality and freedom of choice should ever base it's moral compass by.
Thoughts on all of this? Can morality exist without God?
