YOU are to blame for the decline of the wrestling business.

[Slyfox696]

That's right. I said YOU are. Not the WWE, not ECW, now WCW, not ROH, not TNA...YOU, the fans, are. Why is this you ask? Well I'll tell you.

In about 1996 or 1997, American wrestling fans suddenly decided they were too "smart" for wrestling. Instead of going to shows and playing their part in the show, cheering for the good guys and booing the bad guys, they somehow decided they'd cheer who they want and boo who they want. Then, from there, that turned into the creation of wrestling fans who thought they knew more about wrestling than they really did, creating a type of fan who wasn't impressed by good wrestling, but rather by THEIR definition of good wrestling, which often times was so horribly skewed it screwed everything up.

And what it eventually did was ruin the ENTIRE illusion of good guys vs. bad guys. It ruined entirely the concept of cheering for Good over Evil, which is the very foundation for professional wrestling in the first place. Fans wouldn't go to be a part of the show, they'd go to be above it. And it's bullshit.

So stop it. Next time you go to a show, put your ego in check, and quit fucking ruining wrestling for the rest of us. Don't like a face? Don't cheer. Don't like a heel? Don't boo. If you do like a heel, boo like crazy because THAT'S WHAT HE WANTS. You're not impressing anyone because you like the heel, you're just being an asshole.

If we could somehow shift back to cheer good guys, boo bad guys, I promise wrestling would be so much more entertaining. So, like I said, put your ego on hold, quit thinking you're owed something because you paid money, and treat the show with the respect it deserves.

And don't be an asshole.

 

[klunderbunker]

I have to semi disagree with this. While its true that wrestling is down and a lot of it is due to the rise of the smark, I don't think it can entirely be blamed on that. There are by far more marks than smarks. Listen to the crowds at the majority of shows or read what people say in LDs. Its clear when a crowd is full of smarks, but its definitely a minority. I would say that its not smarks that have damaged wrestling, but the absolute killing of kayfabe. The biggest difference between the booms of the 80s and 90s was kayfabe was at its peak during those times. Austin and McMahon and Hulkamania are arguably the two biggest stories in wrestling history outside of the NWO. I think they worked because they were completely over the top.

Now, everything is made to be too real. There are almost no real characters anymore. To me, this started with the NWO. When Hall, Nash and Hogan joined, they were no longer being any kind of character. They were "being themselves" in front of the camera, and the fans got into it. Same with Austin, Rock, Foley etc. Jim Cornette said that the best characters are people being themselves with the volume turned way up. The problem I think wrestling had was thinking that everyone can work that way and its simply not the case. A lot of wrestlers need gimmicks and characters to get over and need to stop being themselves.

Now, as for how this relates to Sly's point. When the NWO came together, they were no longer characters and people eventually got behind that and cheered them for "being real". They were the heels in the angle, but people cheered them anyway, because they were something different and since then, that different is now normal. Guys like HHH, Batista, Michaels, Cena and the list goes on, don't really have characters they play, but are almost just archetypes. There's nothing that would keep one of them from replacing the other. That to me is what wrestling's problem is, and I semi agree with Sly that it is the fan's faults for going along with it, but it is also the company's for the death of kayfabe.

 

[justinsayne]

I like how I'M an asshole cause I boo who I don't like even if they are a face, if WWE wants to charge me out the ass to go to their show, or buy there PPV then I have the right to boo and cheer for whoever the fuck I want, WWE doesn't care as long as they get your money, Smarks only make up a fraction of wrestling fans, so blaming them for the decline just seems kind of silly

 

[Kliq]

I don't think it's fair to tell a fan who to cheer for, regardless of 'foundation' or 'tradition'. All things need to adapt, and I think it would be ridiculous to assume Pro-Wrestling would be any different. I'm sure there are plenty of fans, like me, who simply prefer one wrestler over another, regardless of face/heel boundries, and regardless of wrestling ability. In my case, it's not a matter of creating a definition of what 'good' wrestling is, it's all about character. Comic book fans sometimes prefer the villian over the hero, and you don't hear Stan Lee shouting "quit fucking rooting for (insert villain name here)".

I do agree that there are those who boo/cheer based on the fact that they want to be disruptive, and that's just something everyone is going to have to deal with. Bottom line, if I want to see a heel destroy a face based on pure preference it should be my option, and like in life, the wrestling business is just going to have to adapt.

 

[Richard]

Don't like a heel? Don't boo.

You are supposed to boo the heel if you don't like them. You boo someone because you don't like them and your not supposed to like the heel so the WWE wants you to boo them.

Lets have an example here. Lets say I go to see RAW when they come next year, I should boo and cheer people regardless of if I like or dislike them or not? No way. I don't like John Cena and I will not cheer for him ever. I like Chris Jericho and I will not boo him just because that's what WWE wants me to do, why should I boo people I like?

The concept of good guys vs bad guys is still there. So in 2005, when J.B.L and John Cena were fueding going into WrestleMania 21, there was no good guys or bad guys? Yes there were, the bad guy was J.B.L and John Cena was the good guy. There are more examples of this, even have a look at Shawn Michaels and Chris Jericho now, if you think that the illusion of the concept of good guy vs bad guy isn't there, you should look again.

When you say "YOU are to blame for the decline of the wrestling business". I will disagree. Fans, humans, have it in their nature to want to find things out and if you ask me, the internet should be blamed because now I can log onto the main page here and find out who gets backstage heat, who managment likes, who Vince wants to push as a wrestler, what Vince likes, what he doesn't like and from that I can make an assumption of who will be pushed. It is almost impossible for WWE to pull a big suprise with the exception of John Cena winning the Royal Rumble this year. This is due to the internet and the fans shouldn't be blamed for wanting to know this information about backstage politics, management etc.

 

[Slyfox696]

I have to semi disagree with this. While its true that wrestling is down and a lot of it is due to the rise of the smark, I don't think it can entirely be blamed on that.

I'm not blaming it on the smark necessarily, I'm blaming it more on fans who feel they are above the show, and not a part of it. Fans who will boo and cheer who they want, instead of who they should, because they think they are more important than they really are.

It just so happens that most of the time those fans are smarks.

There are by far more marks than smarks.

And one person in a movie theater can ruin the show for everyone. It works the same way.

I would say that its not smarks that have damaged wrestling, but the absolute killing of kayfabe.

Which had to be done because fans didn't boo and cheer who they were supposed to. It's not like wrestling being scripted was ever a real secret. It's been known for many many decades. But, the fans still played along like it was. When they quit doing so, that's when kayfabe had to end.

I like how I'M an asshole cause I boo who I don't like even if they are a face, if WWE wants to charge me out the ass to go to their show, or buy there PPV then I have the right to boo and cheer for whoever the fuck I want

So, then, when you buy a ticket to Romeo and Juliet, it's generally an accepted practice to boo Romeo and cheer Friar Tuck for giving them the means to kill themselves?

Bullshit. It's that kind of logic that ruins the show. You don't pay to be above the show, you pay to be a PART of the show. And your part is to play along.

I don't think it's fair to tell a fan who to cheer for, regardless of 'foundation' or 'tradition'.

Why not?

I would have no problem with the WWE starting to kick people out of the show who were being obnoxious in an attempt to get themselves over.

All things need to adapt, and I think it would be ridiculous to assume Pro-Wrestling would be any different.

But wrestling HAS adapted, and the general consensus is that it sucks.

So, if you think it sucks then I'm telling you that YOU are to blame for it being like that.

I do agree that there are those who boo/cheer based on the fact that they want to be disruptive, and that's just something everyone is going to have to deal with. Bottom line, if I want to see a heel destroy a face based on pure preference it should be my option, and like in life, the wrestling business is just going to have to adapt.

Do you really not see how that ruins the show? You're the annoying kid in the back row, who laughs during a dramatic death scene, just to show everyone how dark and mysterious you are. And meanwhile, all you're doing is proving how much of a jerk you are.

Don't be that kid. Have some respect for the workers in the ring. You respect the heel? Then boo the hell out of him. I guarantee you he'd MUCH rather you do that than cheer him.

You are supposed to boo the heel if you don't like them. You boo someone because you don't like them and your not supposed to like the heel so the WWE wants you to boo them.

You misunderstood.

I meant, in a non-storyline sense, if the heel doesn't appeal to you, don't do anything. If the heel entertains you, or if you don't like him in a storyline sense, don't cheer him, boo him.

Lets have an example here. Lets say I go to see RAW when they come next year, I should boo and cheer people regardless of if I like or dislike them or not? No way. I don't like John Cena and I will not cheer for him ever. I like Chris Jericho and I will not boo him just because that's what WWE wants me to do, why should I boo people I like?

That's fine, you don't have to cheer for Cena. Just don't boo him. Just sit down and do nothing. But don't ruin the show for everyone else, just because you want everyone to know how "cool" you are for not liking Cena.

And if Jericho comes out, YES, you boo him. His job is to make you boo him. If you like and respect Jericho, why would you do something he wouldn't want you to do? It's disrespectful to the job that Jericho is trying to do when you cheer him while he wants you to boo.

 

[Richard]

I meant, in a non-storyline sense, if the heel doesn't appeal to you, don't do anything. If the heel entertains you, or if you don't like him in a storyline sense, don't cheer him, boo him.

I know where you're coming from. It's all good in theory, but in practice it just doesn't and won't work. Can you honestly see anyone from the Santino-fan-a-club going to RAW and booing him? I don't see it happening. Do you?

That's fine, you don't have to cheer for Cena. Just don't boo him. Just sit down and do nothing. But don't ruin the show for everyone else, just because you want everyone to know how "cool" you are for not liking Cena.

And if Jericho comes out, YES, you boo him. His job is to make you boo him. If you like and respect Jericho, why would you do something he wouldn't want you to do? It's disrespectful to the job that Jericho is trying to do when you cheer him while he wants you to boo.

If I'm paying good money for my seats I will not go to a show and boo my faveourite wrestler. Me booing Chris Jericho, is like a priest burning a crucifix with Jesus on it. It's blasphemy and would never happen.

I'm with Justin on this one, we have the right to boo and cheer for whoever we wish to boo or cheer for if we are paying good money for our ticket.

I get where you are coming from though, yes it's the heels job to get people to boo them, I just don't think I could boo Chris jericho.

 

[Slyfox696]

I know where you're coming from. It's all good in theory, but in practice it just doesn't and won't work. Can you honestly see anyone from the Santino-fan-a-club going to RAW and booing him? I don't see it happening. Do you?

If they actually did respect him, and cared more about his character than themselves, I could. Sure.

Unfortunately, I think those fans would be more worried about showing how much THEY like Santino and proving to other fans their like of Santino.

If I'm paying good money for my seats I will not go to a show and boo my faveourite wrestler. Me booing Chris Jericho, is like a priest burning a crucifix with Jesus on it. It's blasphemy and would never happen.

And you pay good money to go watch Romeo and Juliet. Are you going to boo Romeo or chant "Fire Shakespeare"? Of course not.

 

[Uncle Sam]

Hey, don't look at me. I boo who I'm meant to boo and cheer who I'm meant to. That's because I give into mob mentality really easily though. I suppose that's kind of the point.

To be honest though, I think the death of kayfabe was inevitable. Was it a good thing? I'll just check if you said it was a good thing Sly. No, you said it wasn't. The death of kayfabe was not a good thing. I do feel it was inevitable though.

With the internet coming in, and, erm, the pressures of modern life. I dunno. There was a point in here which has long since perished.

Let me think. OK, people have always wanted to prove they're not easily taken in. From the Loose Change theory to proclaiming you don't believe in Santa Clause, people are eager to show that "please, like I'd believe in that. I'm, like, way mature." So it was only a matter of time before it happened in the wrestling business.

Maybe.

Edit: And did you compare Vince Russo to William Shakespeare? Personally, I think that Russo's work is too deep and complex to be compared to, say, Macbeth.

 

[klunderbunker]

To go along with what I said earlier, there's another aspect to this that has caused a big problem: Tweeners. Back in the days of the 80s and early 90s, Tweeners were rare. You were a face, or you were a heel. There were exceptions, but they were few and far between. Then guys like Austin come along and while they're meant to be heels and act heelish, they are the most popular guys out there because they do a bit of both. With that, a lot of the smarks started liking them more because they could do both and they were different. Yes tweeners had existed before, but never in the limelight like they did in the last ten years or so. It changed the way wrestling is looked at.

 

[IrishCanadian25]

Here's the one flaw in Sly's discussion. If faces can never get booed, and heels can never get cheered, we would cheat ourselves out of those special "crowd distinction moments" that come around so rarely.

Example One - WrestleMania 13. The crowd was expected to cheer Bret Hart (which they did) and boo Steve Austin (which they did...until the end). When all was said and done, despite still being a "heel," the crowd cheered Austin and started to turn on Hart, resulting in one of the greatest "double turns" ever.

Example Two - WrestleMania 18. The Rock was the uber-face, and Hollywood Hogan, nWo and all, was the massive heel, who even went so far as to run a semi into Rock's car while he was supposedly in the car. Classic heel move. The crowd didn't care. Having Hogan back in a WWF ring was tantamount, and the crowd cheered Hogan, and even booed Rock. So they played along, and the moment was amazing.

Also, Sly, by that logic - what do fans do when faces wrestle faces? Cheer them both? Isn't that the equivalent of ambivalence as to who wins the match?

 

[klunderbunker]

To go along with IC, isn't cheering for who you want part of the point of the show? I've always thought one of WCW's main flaws was that they wouldn't listen to the audience. They would boo the "WCW" guys and cheer the NWO, but at the end of the day, its the audience that should decide everything. The audience buys the tickets, they buy the merchandise, they buy the PPVs and they give the shows the ratings they get. With Austin, there was no choice but to make him a face. He was getting bigger ovations than anyone else. People were tired of having the good guy faces like Hogan shoved down their throats so they cheered for someone they thought was cool and its still going like that to this day.

 

[Slyfox696]

Here's the one flaw in Sly's discussion. If faces can never get booed, and heels can never get cheered, we would cheat ourselves out of those special "crowd distinction moments" that come around so rarely.

Why?

Was it not incredible watching Hogan vs. Andre? Flair vs. Hogan? Was it not impressive seeing Warrior vs. Hogan, Austin vs. Rock, etc?

I doin't get that.

Example One - WrestleMania 13. The crowd was expected to cheer Bret Hart (which they did) and boo Steve Austin (which they did...until the end). When all was said and done, despite still being a "heel," the crowd cheered Austin and started to turn on Hart, resulting in one of the greatest "double turns" ever.

The double turn was planned before the contest. Fans had already started changing and were already booing Hart and cheering Austin. In fact, the phenomenon really started back in 1996, when Hall and Nash got cheers and HBK got boos.

Example Two - WrestleMania 18. The Rock was the uber-face, and Hollywood Hogan, nWo and all, was the massive heel, who even went so far as to run a semi into Rock's car while he was supposedly in the car. Classic heel move. The crowd didn't care. Having Hogan back in a WWF ring was tantamount, and the crowd cheered Hogan, and even booed Rock. So they played along, and the moment was amazing.

But again, it was planned before hand to turn Hogan face.

Also, Sly, by that logic - what do fans do when faces wrestle faces? Cheer them both? Isn't that the equivalent of ambivalence as to who wins the match?

Watch Wrestlemania 6 and you tell me.

But along that line, I want you to think about something. Have you ever noticed the fact that we get more face vs. face main-events now than we EVER did before? Ever think about why? It's because fans refuse to boo good heels. Which means they get turned face, which means the only big money matches are face vs. face. When it happened back in 1990, it was a HUGE thing to have a face vs. face. But, it happens all the time now.

 

[Kliq]

I would have no problem with the WWE starting to kick people out of the show who were being obnoxious in an attempt to get themselves over.

I don't think you understood my post. There is a distinction that you need to make between assholes and fans. People being obnoxious do suck, but please don't put fans who cheer for who they want to in that category. I can only speak for myself, but if I'm booing Cena while everyone else is cheering for him, I'm just letting out an opinion, not trying to get myself over.

But wrestling HAS adapted, and the general consensus is that it sucks.

So, if you think it sucks then I'm telling you that YOU are to blame for it being like that.

If wrestling has adapted, there would be no point in an argument that the fan's opinions are ruining the show. The show should be good regardless of how the fans react to the characters, in a perfect world of course. Wrestling will never be 'good' to everyone. I for one don't think it sucks, and tune in each week with enjoyment rather than criticism. Sure there are things I would rather see, but then again, everyone does.

Do you really not see how that ruins the show? You're the annoying kid in the back row, who laughs during a dramatic death scene, just to show everyone how dark and mysterious you are. And meanwhile, all you're doing is proving how much of a jerk you are.

That is completely different. Cheering when a heel attacks a face is different than laughing during a death scene. Again, you need to distinguish those who are being assholes, and those who just have differing, but still respectable, opinions. Doesn't the WWE want people to cheer for the face Divas? And some drunk idiot keeps screaming out 'TITS!!'. That's just as or moreso disruptive. Why not kick them out?

A great example is The Rock v. Hulk Hogan. I don't even need to explain to you why this is relevant. Did the people cheering for the heel ruin the show? Absolutely not, and I'd say that they made the moment much more than the match did. And you can't say, "Well, it was Hulk Hogan" because in your logic, there should be no exceptions and everyone who cheered for him should have been kicked out, and then, if you were in charge, YOU would have ruined the show.

Don't be that kid. Have some respect for the workers in the ring. You respect the heel? Then boo the hell out of him. I guarantee you he'd MUCH rather you do that than cheer him.

The cheer for the heel should just be accepted by this point. The NWO was the greatest thing in wrestling at one time, and were cheered even though they were heels.

Again, the fans bought the ticket, the fans should be able to do whatever the fuck they want within the limits of the law. If you threw out everyone who felt differently than you, you would have tossed out everyone who boo'd Cena and left a small fraction in the seats during that period of time when he wasn't liked very well. Throwing out people for their opinion is just ridiculous, and I can't believe some of us actually have to tell you that.

 

[Shocky]

Nah, what happened in 1996 and 1997 was the by product of how terrible the business was in 1994 and 1995. The WWF failed to make any new superstars, or any new legit superstars. Sure, Bret was big, but he never got the torch handed to him like he should have. Vince McMahon should have done to Hogan what he did to Hart, you do the job, or I will make you do the job, but that didn't happen. Plus, the ghost of McMahon past was rearing its ugly head, and the Steroid Scandal/Trial took him out of the business for a few years.

So what happens, the WWF spirals for several years into a blackhole of some of the worst gimmicks and worst pay per views on record. This is where the WWF's identity crisis began. Monday Night Raw, the downfall of the WWF, not the fans. Monday Night Raw, a show on primetime, on cable. A timeslot and a situation catered towards adults, not children. This is the era of pre-DVR. Simply put, the WWF created the mess they were in, not the fans.

Howso Shocky? Simple, kids shouldn't be up watching wrestling on a school night at 9 o'clock. Call me conservative, call me old fashioned, but that timeslot kids should be getting ready for bed, not watching two guys wrestle. Instead, Vince chose the primetime big advertising dollars time slot, and practically abandoned that which built his empire, children, and Saturday Morning broadcast. Now, the identity crisis was in full swing.

Instead of a show catered towards adults on during an adult timeslot, it was a show catered towards children. The kids that grew up in the 80's had done just that, grown up. They grew out of the comic book, cartoon world of professional wrestling, and the business refused to grow with them. Now the WWF was stuck in limbo. Mantaur, Bastion Booger, Doink the Clown, the Godwinns, the Smoking Gunns, or any other terrible stereotype or gimmick wrestler weren't cutting it, and justifiably so.

Eric Bischoff did what he did in WCW, and forced Vince hand. ECW was becoming a threat in Vince own backyard, So Vince did what Vince did, and that's sold his soul to keep his business alive. Oh he did what was neccessary. He finally realized that his fanbase grew up, and weren't the five year old Hulkamaniacs. They were rebellious, asshole teenagers that were going threw growing pains.

The WWF catered towards it's now pre-adult audience, and abandoned the Saturday programming altogether, and it worked. We all know about the Attitude Era, we can gripe and argue about the quality, but the fact is, it got people to tune in. It wasn't the smarks, it was the old wrestling fans that wouldn't waste 30 seconds on a website or reading the dirtsheets that brought about change. It was the wrestlers they grew up with they were watching, but those wrestlers finally grew up with them.

So no, the paying customer isn't to blame. The WWF is to blame. They aliented their fanbase along time ago. Instead of trying to fix the problem long term, they took the quick, very successful approach. Now, this is the aftermath. No advertisers because the company name is tarnished, and a fanbase that went onto MMA as their choice for two guys fighting. The WWE can fix that problem, they just don't want to. The solution is simple, cater towards kids. Get off of primetime, and establish yourself to a young fanbase. It won't happen, and that's why ratings are in the tank.

So no, I'm not to blame. The WWF told me ten years ago to be as loud as I want. To bring my signs. They told me that I am the paying customer, and I can cheer and boo whomever I want. I pay, you pay, everyone pays. If you aren't happy with the product, boo. It's my money I invested. If the WWE didn't charge me 75 dollars to go to it's live events, or pay 40 bucks for a pay per view, I have no place to gripe. I'm invested in the product, and I'm not happy with the product. Vince McMahon and creative won't sit down one on one with me, or the paying fan base to see what we want, so we boo to make our opinions known. It's my right, and I use it.

 

[14-Year Old Virgin]

I have to disagree Sly. While there was plenty of people booing the Faces and Cheering the Heels for a LONG TIME, The WWF(E) & WCW is the people you can turn your blame towards. Like most in this thread, I pay an assload of money to go see and cheer who I want to. If you go back to the timeframe that you suggest, Even though there were the idiots that cheered the heels and booed the faces just to be pricks, they were not numbering the size to affect a show.

The Austin Era is where it all began in my opinion. Fans lost touch with whether or not to cheer or boo him confusing all the blind fans. The "Blind" fans as I refer to them are the people that refuse to believe that wrestling is scripted and to this day will argue with you until you finally say, "Yes! Its real! NOW SHUT THE FUCK UP!". Those are the fans that no matter what LOVE the Face, And HATE the Heel. They will cheer the FACE and Boo the HEEL. NO QUESTIONS ASKED. They still by FAR out number the Smarks or the people you blame for ruining wrestling.

All the federations ruined wrestling by turning it TOO MUCH into a soap opera. Remember back when WWF Challenge was on tv? All the talking segments pretty much came while watching a match! Ahhhhhh, the days of old! Don't get me wrong, they still had interviews, but the were TONS more action compared to today. Wrestling sucks today merely because you get more drama than wrestling. I am guilty of the DVR. I can no longer watch a show as it airs because I have fell in love with the FF button. Not only do I not have to watch the same commercial during every commercial break, but I can FF through Booger T's DUMB AS FUCK accent and stupidity. I can also FF through some really bad Diva's action. WWE is definatly losing the battle with the woman.

I don't watch wrestling to see who people cheer and as far as I am concerned, I could give to shits of who people is cheering. Personally myself, I really can't see the connection of how the Fans are the reason wrestling sucks. They didn't write the garbage we watch from BOTH TNA & WWE. Wrestling always comes full circle (Meaning it always rebounds when they finally find what will work) and I have faith that some day it will happen again.