WWE Region, San Diego Subregion, Second Round: (8) Kane vs. (9) Dory Funk Jr.

[klunderbunker]

This is a second round match in the WWE Region, San Diego Subregion. It is a standard one on one match held under WWE Rules. It will be held at the San Diego Arena in San Diego, California.

#8. Kane

Vs.

#9. Dory Funk Jr.

​

Polls will be open for four days following a one day period for discussion. Voting will be based on who you feel is the greater of the two competitors. Post your reasons for why your pick should win below. Remember that this is non-spam and the most votes in the poll win. Any ties will be broken by the amount of posts of support for each candidate, with one vote per poster.

Assume that all wrestlers are at full strength after their first round matches.

Also remember that this is a non-spam forum. If you post a response without giving a reason for your selection, it will be penalized for spam and deleted.

 

[Bernkastel]

We live in a strange and crazy world, and if this were a legends tournament based solely on favoritism then maybe things would be different. But unfortunately, fellow Kanenites, I can not be with you this round...

His one day reign as WWE champion aside, were Kane defeated Stone Cold in the most ridiculously stacked match ever booked against a world champion, his only other time on top came during his 155 day run as world champion. And during that time period he successfully defended the title against the Undertaker 3 separate times on PPV - a fucking phenomenal feat for Kane - only to draw Edge and later lost via DQ. He later lost the title in a fatal 4 way ladder match of all things.

Dory Funk held the NWA world title for 1502 days; ten times longer than Kane. And in that time period he defeat Gene Kiniski, Jack Brisco, the other Brisco, and Fritz Von Erich. He lost the title to Harley Race in controversial fashion to Harley Race, and when the two fought each other in the rematch they drew. Race would later lose the title in short order to Brisco, whom Funk had beaten numerous times throughout the early 1970's.

Kane - defeats Undertaker numerous times; draws Edge.
Funk - defeats Kiniski and Brisco numerous times; draws Harley Race.

Hmm... yeah. Not a hard choice. Funk had a much rougher time as champion and he still held the title for a hell of a lot longer. Not to mention he had championship wins over Dusty Rhodes in NWA Florida.

Factor in overall drawing power, legacy, general importance and all that other jazz and Funk Jr obviously wins.

 

[HBsam31]

I have to go with Dory Funk Jr. based on the length of time he held the title and the victories he had while defending. It makes Kane's title runs look rather meaningless in comparison. Kane is a legend in the sport, but he will lose to an even bigger legend. Funk moves on.

 

[The Brain]

Kane is the kind of guy that will look dominant against competition that ranks below him. He's the kind of guy that will give competition that ranks above him a tough challenge but will never beat them. In professional wrestling Dory Funk Jr. ranks above Kane despite what the seeding says. Funk for the win.

 

[It's...Baylariat!]

Kane holding the WHC for barely half a year vs Dory Funk, Jr., a man who held the NWA Worlds Heavyweight Title for over FOUR YEARS! And not just in any era. An era with Dusty Rhodes, Harley Race, Gene Kiniski, both Brisco brothers, and many other top draws in their respected territories.

This would be close on paper as it would be booked for Kane to attempt to destroy Dory, only to make a clumsy mistake and end up losing to the more savvy veteran.

Vote for Dory.

 

[Dan Severn's Moustache]

There's a 24 year gap from when Dory Funk Jr's prime ended and when Glenn Jacobs debuted as Kane. In that extended space of time, the wrestling industry was changed completely. Technical wrestling proficiency, whilst still alive and kicking to this day, was put to the side in favour of the big, charismatic guys who's prime purpose was to not create a technical masterpiece, but rather tell a story. Wrestling became sports entertainment in essence. While the technical style had a resurgence in the mid-90's, the Attitude Era quelled it for the time being with a mantra similar to the 80's, only with more risque content. What does this have to do with this match? It's that Dory Funk Jr never had the chance to fight a man quite like Kane in his prime.

Kane was a character which had never been seen before upon his debut. While Undertaker upon his debut was dark and enigmatic, Kane was savage and destructive, more so than the Undertaker himself. He wasn't just another big guy, he was a completely different breed of big guy; a vengeful burns victim who wanted to inflict the same pain that he had suffered upon anyone standing in his path, and he did just that, quickly amassing a large body count in his prime, quickly becoming THE most intimidating character in the era, and possibly in wrestling history.

Dory Funk isn't Austin or Undertaker. I'd say Dory was a bigger star than 98' Taker during his pre-Ministry run, but not on the same tier as Austin during his run at his prime. The thing is, Taker's wins at WM14 and in the Inferno match were to extend the storyline so Kane could win the blow-off match and defeat Austin for the title. And as I said, story telling was the most important aspect of the Attitude Era. And Dory Funk is not in the same league as Stone Cold Steve Austin during his prime.

Dory's fighting style is also rather ineffective against Kane, at least opposed to Austin's brawling style and Undertaker's powerhouse and brawling style which were proven to be the only effective ways to combat the Big Red Machine in his prime. Technical wrestling will still do OK against Kane, but Funk is at a disadvantage due to never having faced anyone quite like Kane before. Looking at Dory's finishers, I'm going to not count the submission holds because Kane never tapped out in his prime, and even as he began to come out of it, which leaves the piledriver. Kane took THREE Tombstone Piledrivers and a great deal of powerhouse offence from Undertaker before going down at Wrestlemania. Not to mention, the Tombstone variant of the piledriver has more elevation than the normal variant, AND is coming from a man with superior strength in the Undertaker, so it's likely that Kane can take over three piledrivers from Funk.

Kane was pinned twice in his prime, once by one of the most devastating moves ever hitting THREE times from Undertaker at Wrestlemania, and once to one of the biggest wrestling stars of all-time, who is bigger than Funk. Funk had some very tough competition during his prime, but he's at a disadvantage due to the evolution of the wrestling industry quite simply.

As far as I can see, people voting Funk are basing their cases on accomplishments alone. Accomplishments should play a role of course to adjudicate who the bigger star is when it comes down to it, but at the end of the day, this should be analysed as a FIGHT. And Dory Funk Jr is going to have a significant amount of trouble fighting a man like Kane.

Dory has the advantage in terms of prestige, but Kane has the significant advantage in terms of fighting style and time periods. As I said in the Henry-Benoit match, this is a tournament to decide who wins their respective matches, not who is the more accomplished wrestler. And in this case, Kane has the advantage in combat.

 

[Punkanomics]

Voting purely out of personal preference here. I Ussually wouldn't vote against a man that I no very little about because I am admittley a virgin mind when it comes too wrestling in Funk's time. Buttttt.... since Kane is one of my all time favorites I have to give him a vote.

 

[Poop Master Flex]

Dory wins this one and there's not much that can be said against that. Dory has the second longest NWA Heavyweight title reign (going over 4 years) which means he was a pretty good draw as well if he kept the title that long in the 60's-70's.

Kane on the other hand is a great big man but he didn't spend one day at the top of the mountain let alone 4 years and he's an upper mid card guy who sometimes gets to work in the main event, on top of that i feel Kane is better in tags then as a singles guy (although hes very good as a singles wrestler). Kane is WWE's secondary/tertiary monster and although he may have beaten Austin in a first blood he ain't putting Dory down for the 3.

I know a lot more about Kane than I do Dory but what I do know about Dory is more than enough justification to give him the vote. Dory wins.

 

[Richard Blonoff]

I'm gonna vote for Kane because I picked Kane to win this match in the tournament prediction contest and I want to win a free copy of one of KB's books.

 

[GI Cake]

I look at Dory Funk Jr and I think "Wow, this guy looks like he will rape me twice." Then I look at Kane, and I know that guy has raped me before, and will do it again if I don't vote for him. Ladies, gentleman, the person who has to read to Awesome_Miz's post to him because he reads at a second grade level. I don't want to be raped twice.

Vote Kane, or he will climb into your window during the thick of night.

 

[Tastycles]

I can never remember which out of Jack Brisco and Dory Funk it was who got the NWA title because of their father's influence on the committee that decide that, but lets assume that it was Dory. Even if it was, everything he has done is far more significant than everything Kane has done. Kane may have debuted as some sort of destructive monstrosity, but lets not forget that he lost the match he was brought in to have. Kane is a loyal servant and a solid hand, but he has never been a guy that is going to start beating the biggest names. Funk wins.

 

[Dan Severn's Moustache]

Every single person who has voiced their opinion as to why Dory will go over Kane is only taking into consideration the fact that Dory is a more accomplished wrestler than Kane. While that's true, nobody has expressed in any shape or form how this will translate to a fight between the two men.

The main competition that Dory Funk fought in his prime were men of a similar size to him, somewhere where his style excelled. He never fought a guy like Giant Baba, Andre the Giant or any other giant. He beat Bull Ramos, a short fat guy with a win percentage of 31%, but other than that, nothing stands out. Dory Funk Jr has no experience against a wrestler like Kane due to the evolution of wrestling, and he doesn't even have any experience against giants during his prime.

Let me highlight this point again: It took THREE Tombstone Piledrivers from The Undertaker, at Wrestlemania to stop Kane, and even then, it scarcely attained a three count. Now, a piledriver from Dory Funk is no laughing matter of course, but keep in mind that Dory simply sits to bring the opponents head down onto the mat with the bare minimum of elevation from the mat. Undertaker is much stronger than Dory, puts his full strength behind the tombstone, has a higher elevation with the move, performs it faster and more savagely and makes better use of gravity with his variation. And Kane kicked out twice, and very almost a third time from the vastly superior variation of the piledriver. And don't tell me that Undertaker wasn't a big enough star either because he was firmly the #2 guy in WWE due to Hart and HBK's departures, and the fact that The Rock wasn't even in the Corporation at that point.

Kane simply has the advantage in a one vs one match due to their vastly different fighting styles. Kane dealt with technical wrestling in his prime. Dory never dealt with powerhouse and savage offensive from a man like Kane.

Dory is more accomplished, but there's no way he can win an actual fight against a guy like Kane, which is the point of the Wrestlezone Tournament.

 

[Bernkastel]

Dory is more accomplished, but there's no way he can win an actual fight against a guy like Kane, which is the point of the Wrestlezone Tournament.

No. The point is to vote the more deserving legend forward. Even if you were to use kayfabe means it's still usually pretty easy to pick out which guy was the more important one. Kane was never booked as the face of a major promotion. Funk was. Kane held a world title for about 156 days. One of Funk's reigns was 10 times longer. Kane lost his title in a clusterfuck fatal fourway gimmick match. Funk was basically screwed out of his. Funk was relevant as a major player for much longer. Kane has been subjective to some of the most inconsistent booking of any wrestler ever.

Not hard to pick a winner, even from kayfabe standards. Kane would push Dory to the limit, but he wouldn't win.

 

[Bythedockofthebay]

No. The point is to vote the more deserving legend forward. Even if you were to use kayfabe means it's still usually pretty easy to pick out which guy was the more important one. Kane was never booked as the face of a major promotion. Funk was. Kane held a world title for about 156 days. One of Funk's reigns was 10 times longer. Kane lost his title in a clusterfuck fatal fourway gimmick match. Funk was basically screwed out of his. Funk was relevant as a major player for much longer. Kane has been subjective to some of the most inconsistent booking of any wrestler ever.

Not hard to pick a winner, even from kayfabe standards. Kane would push Dory to the limit, but he wouldn't win.

Not to mention if Mysterio or Bryan can pin Kane, Dory Funk surely can

 

[Dan Severn's Moustache]

No. The point is to vote the more deserving legend forward. Even if you were to use kayfabe means it's still usually pretty easy to pick out which guy was the more important one. Kane was never booked as the face of a major promotion. Funk was. Kane held a world title for about 156 days. One of Funk's reigns was 10 times longer. Kane lost his title in a clusterfuck fatal fourway gimmick match. Funk was basically screwed out of his. Funk was relevant as a major player for much longer. Kane has been subjective to some of the most inconsistent booking of any wrestler ever.

Not hard to pick a winner, even from kayfabe standards. Kane would push Dory to the limit, but he wouldn't win.

I had this argument with nightmare last round, and it's always been about who has the tools to win respective matches (IC25 even said that before). If we wanted to find out who the best wrestler ever was, anybody could just start up a poll in the Old School Wrestling section, give it some publicity and treat the final result as law. Also, what would the point of gimmick matches be if we're only going to decide who wins in terms of accomplishments? Does that mean Andre the Giant is going to beat AJ Styles in an Ultimate X Match? Does that mean Yokozuna is going to beat Evan Bourne in an embarrassment match? Of course not. And I know this is a normal one on one match, but these rules still apply. It's the reason I voted a prime Mark Henry over a prime Chris Benoit: Benoit was the bigger star, but his offence isn't very effective against Henry. Same with Kane and Dory, but even more transparent because Dory has never fought a man like Kane before in his prime.

Also, this isn't a fatal fourway gimmick match where there are far more distractions. This is a one v one match with both men in their primes, and without the distractions of weapons or two other competitors, I maintain that Kane will win this because he has the necessary tools to do so.

@Dock:

Re-read that and hopefully you'll understand how dumb that statement was. I expect better from you.

 

[Bernkastel]

I had this argument with nightmare last round, and it's always been about who has the tools to win respective matches (IC25 even said that before).

People can use whatever criteria they want, but ultimately we're voting on who we all think is the better wrestler objectively.

If we wanted to find out who the best wrestler ever was, anybody could just start up a poll in the Old School Wrestling section, give it some publicity and treat the final result as law.

People complain about that every year, not even realizing those types of debates are what this tournament was made for. It's not a popularity contest.

Also, what would the point of gimmick matches be if we're only going to decide who wins in terms of accomplishments?

Because gimmicks are the one time we can be subjective. And it produces matches that are often so silly they'd never be booked for real. I personally vote against the bigger star if it isn't 100% realistic that he can win: for example Stone Cold vs Jushin Liger in an embarrassment match = GG Stone Cold.

Does that mean Andre the Giant is going to beat AJ Styles in an Ultimate X Match?

Yes. It's not realistic for Andre to be able to compete in such a match. It would never be booked for real but here it allows the one bit of subjective booked to surface.

And I know this is a normal one on one match, but these rules still apply.

The objective is to get your pick forward. I use drawing power/influence/legacy because it's the easiest way to be objective. Others use kayfabe. Those arguments usually devolve into pissing contests. Others use the locations and brackets. I personally treat them as unrelated entities.

It's the reason I voted a prime Mark Henry over a prime Chris Benoit: Benoit was the bigger star

I voted Henry because I thought Henry was the bigger star and I defended my arguments accordingly.

but his offence isn't very effective against Henry.

That's subjective. Kayfabe treatment always favors the bigger star anyway. So if Kane was booked to lose to Dory, then Dory would hand him his ass.

Same with Kane and Dory, but even more transparent because Dory has never fought a man like Kane before in his prime.

Prime refers to how big of a draw/relevant a wrestler was at his peak. Are you really going to argue Kane's peak of relevance was higher than Dory's? If so then Great Khali would be a top 5 seed in this thing.

 

[Dan Severn's Moustache]

People can use whatever criteria they want, but ultimately we're voting on who we all think is the better wrestler objectively.

Vader beat Austin in a dog-collar match. Does that mean Vader is bigger than Austin? Like I said, one poll is enough to find out who the greatest wrestler ever is.

People complain about that every year, not even realizing those types of debates are what this tournament was made for. It's not a popularity contest.

I know it's not a popularity contest, and I'm not voting Kane because I prefer him. I'm voting Kane because he is far more likely to win a match against Dory Funk Jr when both men are in their primes due to the factors listed above.

Because gimmicks are the one time we can be subjective. And it produces matches that are often so silly they'd never be booked for real. I personally vote against the bigger star if it isn't 100% realistic that he can win: for example Stone Cold vs Jushin Liger in an embarrassment match = GG Stone Cold.

The bold warrants the . In fact, that statement is pretty subjective.

It's not entirely realistic that Dory Funk can win because he's never fought anyone like Kane before. Kane has the massive advantage in that regard.

Yes. It's not realistic for Andre to be able to compete in such a match. It would never be booked for real but here it allows the one bit of subjective booked to surface.

I don't get what you're trying to get across here.

The objective is to get your pick forward. I use drawing power/influence/legacy because it's the easiest way to be objective. Others use kayfabe. Those arguments usually devolve into pissing contests. Others use the locations and brackets. I personally treat them as unrelated entities.

And what's to stop me compiling a bunch of statistics in support of Hulk Hogan and monopolizing the tournament? From a match analysis, we actually derive the guy who has the best chance to win, and it really doesn't hurt the chances of the biggest stars like Bruno, Hogan, Austin and Thesz in normal matches.

I'm not saying you're wrong for getting statistics together because they're the best way to vote when nobody has the distinct advantage in the match, but from a realistic standpoint, Dory Funk is at a distinct disadvantage.

I voted Henry because I thought Henry was the bigger star and I defended my arguments accordingly.

Fair enough, I was using it to justify my thought process, not to call you out on hypocrisy or anything like that.

That's subjective. Kayfabe treatment always favors the bigger star anyway. So if Kane was booked to lose to Dory, then Dory would hand him his ass.

Remember how I said wrestling evolved from technical masterpieces to telling a story? The story in this match is this: Dory has never faced a man like Kane before, he has nearly nothing to put him down and although he may hit a piledriver, he doesn't have the style to keep Kane down. Kane ravages Dory and despite an impressive fight, he is slain.

And if you use the underdog argument, you're going against everything you've said.

Prime refers to how big of a draw/relevant a wrestler was at his peak. Are you really going to argue Kane's peak of relevance was higher than Dory's? If so then Great Khali would be a top 5 seed in this thing.

No I'm not. What I'm trying to say is when Dory was in his prime, he never fought anyone like Kane. Meanwhile, Kane only lost in his prime to:
A) Advance a storyline where he won the rubber match. He was pinned once by Undertaker after three tombstone piledrivers, which I've discussed in detail.
B) Against the second seed of this tournament in his prime, Stone Cold Steve Austin, which is nothing to be ashamed of.

And Dory Funk did not wrestle in the same style as Austin or had the benefit of hindsight. That suggests Kane has the distinctive advantage in a one v one match.

 

[Bernkastel]

Vader beat Austin in a dog-collar match. Does that mean Vader is bigger than Austin? Like I said, one poll is enough to find out who the greatest wrestler ever is.

I voted Austin that round. IMO that stipulation would not have been a detriment to the bigger star. Vader won on pure favoritism.

I know it's not a popularity contest, and I'm not voting Kane because I prefer him. I'm voting Kane because he is far more likely to win a match against Dory Funk Jr when both men are in their primes due to the factors listed above.

That's subjective. I could easily apply the same to Kane. He lost to the likes of Benoit and Angle. Technical wrestlers like Dory. Dory was a bigger star than either, so it's likely Kane would be the one not knowing what's he's up against.

It's not entirely realistic that Dory Funk can win because he's never fought anyone like Kane before. Kane has the massive advantage in that regard.

And Kane has never faced anyone like Dory Funk. Weaker stars than Dory have beaten him.

I don't get what you're trying to get across here.

That since those matches would never be booked in real life it's justifiable to vote the bigger star out. It's subjective voting. Andre would not be physically able to run the ropes in an Ultimate X. Juts like Hogan would never be able to do a corkscrew whatever without injuring himself.

And what's to stop me compiling a bunch of statistics in support of Hulk Hogan and monopolizing the tournament? From a match analysis, we actually derive the guy who has the best chance to win, and it really doesn't hurt the chances of the biggest stars like Bruno, Hogan, Austin and Thesz in normal matches.

Even then he probably wouldn't win because of the subjectiveness in determining the importance of eras. It's arguable that WWE is drawing more revenue as a whole now than they were 20 years ago. So from that standpoint should Cena be bigger than Hogan? Should Hogan be bigger than Lou Thesz?

I'm not saying you're wrong for getting statistics together because they're the best way to vote when nobody has the distinct advantage in the match, but from a realistic standpoint, Dory Funk is at a distinct disadvantage.

Not really. As the heel Kane would be booked to lose. He's lost to inferior wrestlers that were similar to Funk.

Remember how I said wrestling evolved from technical masterpieces to telling a story? The story in this match is this: Dory has never faced a man like Kane before, he has nearly nothing to put him down and although he may hit a piledriver, he doesn't have the style to keep Kane down. Kane ravages Dory and despite an impressive fight, he is slain.

Not really. The outcome is determined by whose bigger. If that was law then Kane would not had a one day title reign. He lost it back to Austin the next night because Austin was the bigger star. Dory is a bigger star than Kane. In the story they tell Kane would lose.

And if you use the underdog argument, you're going against everything you've said.

Why would I? If anything I see Kane as the underdog. He's the monster heel about to be fed to the conquering face,

No I'm not. What I'm trying to say is when Dory was in his prime, he never fought anyone like Kane. Meanwhile, Kane only lost in his prime to:
A) Advance a storyline where he won the rubber match. He was pinned once by Undertaker after three tombstone piledrivers, which I've discussed in detail.
B) Against the second seed of this tournament in his prime, Stone Cold Steve Austin, which is nothing to be ashamed of.

Same thing can be applied to Funk.

And Dory Funk did not wrestle in the same style as Austin or had the benefit of hindsight. That suggests Kane has the distinctive advantage in a one v one match.

And I'm sure Kane may spend the majority of the match dominating. Doesn't mean he's going to win. When Kane faced Angle at Mania he was on the defensive for most of the match and still lost.

 

[Dan Severn's Moustache]

I voted Austin that round. IMO that stipulation would not have been a detriment to the bigger star. Vader won on pure favoritism.

No, Vader won because he had the advantage in the match-up, as proven by the guys arguing for Vader.

That's subjective. I could easily apply the same to Kane. He lost to the likes of Benoit and Angle. Technical wrestlers like Dory. Dory was a bigger star than either, so it's likely Kane would be the one not knowing what's he's up against.

Yes he did. But neither of those men were even in WWF during Kane's prime. And you're implying that technical wrestling is going to better suited against a guy like Kane than put to use against a guy Dory's size, aka pretty much everyone he fought during his prime.

And Kane has never faced anyone like Dory Funk. Weaker stars than Dory have beaten him.

Implying Dory is bigger than Austin is absurd, and Kane won his rubber match against Undertaker anyway.

That since those matches would never be booked in real life it's justifiable to vote the bigger star out. It's subjective voting. Andre would not be physically able to run the ropes in an Ultimate X. Juts like Hogan would never be able to do a corkscrew whatever without injuring himself.

So you're saying AJ Styles has the tools to win that match even though he's not as big a star as Andre?

Thank you for proving my point.

Even then he probably wouldn't win because of the subjectiveness in determining the importance of eras. It's arguable that WWE is drawing more revenue as a whole now than they were 20 years ago. So from that standpoint should Cena be bigger than Hogan? Should Hogan be bigger than Lou Thesz?

Do you see how limited your playing field is?

Not really. As the heel Kane would be booked to lose. He's lost to inferior wrestlers that were similar to Funk.

Previous argument I've discarded in this post.

Not really. The outcome is determined by whose bigger. If that was law then Kane would not had a one day title reign. He lost it back to Austin the next night because Austin was the bigger star. Dory is a bigger star than Kane. In the story they tell Kane would lose.

Like I said, there's no shame in losing to Austin, who also had a fighting style to combat Kane quite well. Technical wrestling isn't the best style to use against a giant; not to mention that Dory hasn't faced a man quite like Kane before, a point that has yet to be countered.

Why would I? If anything I see Kane as the underdog. He's the monster heel about to be fed to the conquering face,

I'm talking in terms of kayfabe here.

Same thing can be applied to Funk.

Funk wasn't as big as Austin during his prime. Austin also had a better fighting style to deal with Kane. Not to mention the tombstone argument still stands.

And I'm sure Kane may spend the majority of the match dominating. Doesn't mean he's going to win. When Kane faced Angle at Mania he was on the defensive for most of the match and still lost.

Kane has spent the majority of matches on offence and has still won those matches. Dory has never faced a guy like Kane when Dory was in his prime. Not to mention that's a match outside of Kane's prime.