WWE, Botch artists?

[Checkmate]

I searched for topics with this name, and didn't find any, so I decided to make my first thread...

I have noticed a recent trend with WWE and certain guys that matches have slowly gained more and more rough moments. A few stand out, and even more are obvious given the right view.

I'm someone who owns multiple wrestling DVD's, and after watching some of the older product in comparison to the newer generation of entertainers I've noticed that the newer product has more opportunities to make mistakes. Matches suffer as a result, and it effects the overall product.

Specific examples include:

Royal Rumble 2008: Chris Jericho vs JBL

Jericho attempts a running bulldog and misses horribly. JBL attempts to sell the move anyway, and falls down. They are met with boos, but Jericho repeatedly stomps JBL and hits the Lionsault to get the fans back in the match.

Cyber Sunday 2008: Undertaker vs Big Show

After the table spot and Taker is down for a 9 count, the ref seemingly forgets how to count to 10 to assist Taker. When Taker does stumble up, the ref declares him up before 10. If you listen carefully, you can hear fans berate the ref for his count stoppage.


These are just 2 examples from recent memory, but there are more.

I've seen Jeff Hardy miss his mule kick and the Whisper in the Wind multiple times, yet the opponent jumps into it to sell the move. Refs have counted the wrong finish. There is also the refs 5 count during a match with no DQ, which is pointless (although this may be intentional, as it is often noted by commentators).

Another horrible factor is when an onscreen character botches a line, such as Vickie Guerrero this past sunday. I can understand mispeaking, but constantly showing poor verbal skills doesn't help the character.

So, what I'm asking is:

How much does this devalue the product?

Why does it seem to be happening more frequently?

Is there any solution, or is this the norm?

 

[JackAttack]

First of all, I don't think it devalues the product at all really. I think if people let it get to them, then its their problem. Mistakes happen all of the time, and no one is perfect. That doesn't entirely excuse it, I just don't see how you would let a little thing like that ruin your day. Not a big deal really.

I also don't see how it has been happening more often. Jeff botches the WITW almost every time, Jericho's Lionsault often misses his opponent, and Batista botches the Batista bomb more often than not. It has been a problem ever since I began watching. Happens all of the time.

How to fix it? Hell if I know. I don't see why Batista botches his finisher so much, but I don't know what advice one would give him to help him improve. I'd say its pretty normal if you know the superstars movesets well, and pay attention alot. One can easily spot numerous botches by Mysterio in almost any one of his matches.

 

[My$terio_Fan]

Yeah, if you watch back in the Attitude era there was just as many botches and such. Also I really don't think it devalue's the company since most know wrestling is fake. I think it would be better when a wrestler screws up a certain move(Hardy WITW)if the opponent doesn't fake being hit and go on like it was suppose to happen. It's like half of the guys have never done improve.

 

[Checkmate]

I value your input. Thank you.

I'm not saying that it is getting to me, as it isn't my problem to run this business. It just strikes me as odd sometimes. I can understand the little things, as everyone is going to make their mistakes, and we have to live with them. You are correct in saying no one is perfect.

Now, straying away from the ring for a second, I'm also focusing on Mike Adamle and Vickie Guerrero. What is going on with those two? One week, they run the job just fine and draw heat and get pops when needed. The next, they can't remember a simple sentence. Vickie looked like she had a brain fart at Cyber Sunday, and Adamle often seems dull on RAW.

I'm just questioning how hard it is to remember a few simple words? Or does the job really get to them?

I'm relatively new to the forums and I'm trying to get some input to who thinks this is relevant.

What is an acceptable botch, and what isn't? Obviously, I'm not talking about bodily harm, as that would be a different issue.

Another issue is the other guy's improv. If someone botches a move, how do you think the judgment calls of both the ref and the other guy in the ring are handled?

Again, just looking to see what people think, and get to meet some new people in the process.

 

[Yrrab]

This thread reminds me of the long hours I spent watching Maffew's "Botchmania" on youtube. 50+ episodes, usually about 6-10 minutes each. They were easily the most entertaining tidbits of wrestling I've ever watch, aside from the actual wrestling shows.

I wouldn't say it devalues the company. I imagine I'd make a few mistakes up there myself, being in front of 15,000 people at a time. And just when you think you're fine and dandy and used to the bright lights and the crowd, one mistake will put your confidence on hold. I've gotten a lot more lenient on it though, ever since being introduced to Mike Adamle. The guy's got courage. And you can tell he's really, really trying.

I'm pretty guilty when it comes to trying to spot the botches too. On slow, shitty nights (like the last few months of RAW), I've pretty much been going out of my way to spot em'.

 

[SuperSwanton]

I think the ones that are suitable are the ones in promos when it is an itense moment or the speech is going at a fast pace. I have heard everyone botch the letters WWE a helluva a lot.

Non suitable are when it is so obvious but is mistaken in a promo or in a match whne a move doesn't connect and is still sold.

An off topic question here but what happened to botchmania.... I can't find it on youtube anymore?

 

[Dead Kennedy]

Botches happen all the time. Screwing up is a risk in pretty much everything in life. Wrestling specifically, since it is not a real sport, requiring the workers to constantly avoid screwing up since the slightest miscalculation can result in an incorrect sell or injury to the other worker and themselves.

Botches aren't much more frequent now than they were during the heyday of both the Federation and Attitude Eras. But back then, the times were different...people could ignore a botched sell if the match still delivered. Seeing as how the overall match quality has, in a word, declined a bit over the years people, especially smarks and the IWC are becoming more focused on looking at the detail of the moves and sells rather than enjoy the product and getting sucked into it.

You can't honestly say that the botching of promos was any less frequent in the Federation Era...lots of people on the roster than could barely deliver a discernible promo. The Attitude Era...well, mainly, people were allowed to be themselves more back then, allowing them to feel more secure and natural and in turn delivering a better performance. The fact that true mic talent was more frequent back than doesn't hurt either. But as for move botching, I can't say I see much difference from the shows from the Attitude Era.

I think if you concentrate really hard on find botches, you find them more easily. Let's say you're watching a match, a complete 5-star classic match. Would you care if a move or two were botched? Well, I can't really answer for you but to me, the end result of a match, if it has been entertaining, benefitted any of the workers etc. is more important than any spot botching that may occur.

(By the way... Maffew, the creator of Botchamania had his account shut down by WWE. Heh, guess Vinnie Mac didn't like anybody pointing out the imperfections of his programming...they've really started cracking down on wrestling videos on YouTube nowadays...guess VKM is getting paranoid in his old age. Surprise Vince, people know that botches happen.)

 

[Rusty]

Botches are bound to happen in a sport such as this. Nobody in this world is perfect, therefore everybody makes mistakes. So what if Jericho miss one bulldog out of every 30? So what if the ref doesn't count to 10 to purposely not force the match to end in a different way? So what if Jeff Hardy occasionally misses his Whisper in the Wind? They are human beings. They never get praised for the hundreds of moves they do correct every night, but get picked on for screwing up one lousy move in one match. I think it's nitpicking. Its like writing on a piece of paper. You write hundreds of letters correct, but occasionally you might make a mistake. Everyone makes them.

I can guarantee you that every single WWE Superstar has made multiple mistakes in their careers. The botches shouldn't affect the matches. In fact, the WWE Superstars should be praised for covering up botches. After almost every botch, the superstars continue on like it's nothing. Look at Raw this week for example during the World Tag Team Championship bout, CM Punk misses the rope and almost falls through out after trying to rebound off the second rope. Ted DiBiase who is a rookie, sees this and quickly covers him to completely cover the botch and save Punk from making a fool of himself. For a young guy, he handled it very well and impressed me.

Botching a promo or interview is not unacceptable. Have you tried public speaking before? I'm sure you have all done at least a few mistakes in your speeches. These guys do it in front of millions watching, so who cares if they forget a line in a long promo? You shouldn't be picking on little things like that. Think positive and focus on the positive. Focusing on botches and negatives will only make you dislike the product.

 

[Checkmate]

I again appreciate all the input.

I think Hardcore Kennedy said it best with the overall decline of the matches comes more blatent botches. I'm not saying that there will be no botches ever in a match, and I credit each and every worker who puts on smooth matches that seem botch free. Many of them you'd have to be looking for to spot, which means they are doing their job well and covering them up as best as possible.

Maybe it is because I didn't watch the old school matches live and only have seen them on VHS, DVD, or online that I spot the mistakes more easily. However, I didn't seem to mind them as much, possibly out of respect for an older generation. I'll admit that I'm definately biased against the current set of entertainers, as I've seen how the product used to be and like most people wish it wouldn't change. I know this isn't possible though, so I have to take the good with the bad. It is just a matter of how much good and how much bad.

Some guys can work a classic match and make it all look good. Others, not so much. Certain pairs and feuds will result in better matches, others will be dull. It's all in the booking and the work ethic. That to me seperates legends from the flavor of the month.

On another note, there are good public speakers and there are poor ones. Some people were born to speak in front of others, and some require tons of practice to do so. Adamle strikes me as a worker. He knows he isn't the best, and wants to climb the ladder to get there. When he was bumped from the announce table, he took it as an opportunity to get more practice in. Now, he is doing a much better job then when he started. That work ethic is a credit to both him and the company.

Others, as you can tell by the amount of mic time they get, are not as gifted on the mic and don't put in enough effort to improve. The Rock was a gifted speaker. What he could do on the mic was an art. Sure, he'd botch a line every once in a while, but no one would even notice, as he was that good. Some newer guys, like Kennedy and MVP, have this talent that can help them go far. Unfortunately, not everyone has this, and some just don't seem to care. The little mic time they have is stale and unimportant, as they don't carry the fans with their words.

So, to this I say that verbal botches are just as relevant to the product as the wrestling skills. I'm not saying that botching a sentence is a sin, but it shows that you need to improve or risk doing so again. Adamle learned from this, and improved. No one is perfect, but that doesn't mean no one can do better.

Thanks again.

 

[Y 2 Jake]

WWE matches are as botch free as you're going to get. It happens, but not as frequently as in any other promotion. I'd go so far as to say that WWE matches are almost flawless in comparison to other promotions. It's all down to the lack of high spots.

For every WWE one you point out I could give you 10 TNA, for every TNA botch I could give you 100 ROH etc.

 

[Adel_hamra]

i read the spoilers for the halloween edition of smackdown and this is a part of it:

"* John Morrison & The Miz b. WWE Tag Team Champions Carlito & Primo Colon in a non-title mastch.
- John Morrison got the pin on Carlito for the win. Referee Charles Robinson botched the finish as he counted to three and rang the bell on the wrong finish. The Tag Champs go to the back confused. "

didn't the miz get the pin on carlito after hitting that knee intoa neckbraker? and how was that the wrong finish?

 

[The Undercover Man]

I have also noticed "botches" happening throughout the WWE, not just in the WWE but actually in other wrestlng promotions too. I must admit these things make the matches akward and its like there almost saying to the crowd "yeah we no its scripted so what" when any botches happening instead of not selling them.

I think the reason wrestlers of this generation botch more is because things in this era are obviously better then the era gone past. The wrestlers have better equipment, better weapons and i'd say they have better writers. thses things allways will cause botches its never going to be perfect.

Heres and example of a botch,Cyber Sunday: Matt Hardy vs Evan Bourne. Matt Hardy attempts the "Twist of fate" but he botches it right in front of the camera. Evan Bournes head can't even be seen hitting the ring thats how botched it was.

There were alot of botches during Taker and Show's match at Cyber Sunday, mainly because the match seemed psyichal and very hard work for both men. The ref Charles Robinson made two botches. As the OP said when the table spot occured but did you notice at the end of the match? When the ref got to the 9 count then Taker dropped again? I don't think Taker was even on his feet, he was hanging onto the ring rope out of the screenshot.

Jeff Hardy as the OP gave examples of does botch alot. His moveset makes the moves very difficult to pull off and sell hence all the botches. Most of his "swanton bombs" usually are'nt performed correctly, they either miss the opponent or hit the arm of him. But like i said earlier, this comes with the teritory when Jeff's involved because he is such a risk taker so moves are more likely to get botched.

Personally i think it does devalue the product, its as if when a wrestler sells a non-exsistent move the wrestlers almost saying wrestling is scripted. Wrestling like i said earlier is more likely to be botched in this era simply because of the types of things the wrestlers have now then they did in the past. The wrestlers are a big problem in this though *cough* Batista *cough*

Once again botches seem to be occuring more frequently because of the writers, weapons and possibly a bit of misunderstanding between the wrestlers in the ring.

I personally don't think theres any solution because wrestlers are'nt robots there humans and there all bound to make botches during promos or matches. Somtimes botches can improve a promo but sometimes they can take away from it. In matches though botches do devalue it alot
__________________