Would Vince have made it without Hogan?

[PsychoBlack]

Lets take it back to 1984 for a second. Let's say Hogan never even got into wrestling or he stayed in Japan, either way He was never with the AWA and He won't be with the WWF.
Now lets say you're Vince McMahon, you still have the idea of going National you just need a star to take your company there. Now realistically with there being No Hogan Flair is by far the biggest star in America alongside Dusty Rhodes due to their relationship with the NWA their is no way their leaving. This still leaves you with an incredible talent pool of stars to choose from.

Kerry Von Erich, Macho Man, Rocky Johnson, Paul Orndoff, Rick Martel, Stan Hansen, Ted Dibiase, The Freebirds, David Von Erich, Greg Valentine, The Road Warriors, Vader, Ricky Steamboat, Jerry Lawler, Terry Funk, Jimmy Snuka, Tommy Rich, Magnum TA. This may look like a list of members in some wrestling Hall of fame somewhere, but, this happens to be a list of guys who were in the territories drawing big (as big as you could get in the territories) houses night after night. Do you think anyone could have been the guy if Hogan was never around?

I feel like it could have been done. As great as Hogan was I think Vince is equally responsible for the boom that happened when the WWF went national. I feel that Vince would have been smart enough to get an established act over.

The easiest way for him to do this would be to look at who was the hottest at the point in time and without a doubt in my head it would have been Kerry Von Erich. He was on fire at this point in time and Vince would have took that fire and threw gasoline on it.


What I want to know from you guys is do you think that the WWE would have made it without Hulkamania?

who would you have used to make it the global phenomenon that it is today and why would you pick that person?

 

[TOM93BITW]

I think that they wouldn't without him, they would've just used someone else, it wouldn't have created the same hysteria as hulkamania but I'm sure there would've been someone else, to be honest this question could've easily been switched around- would hogan have made it without Vince, he wouldn't have gained the popularity that he has now that's for sure.

 

[Bobbywoodhogan]

For me no, everything is about timing, and the timing was perfect for both Vince & Hogan. Hogan was the right man to lead the WWF in the ring, his persona, the way he was already over before he came back to WWF which was largely in part to his Thunderlips role in Rocky III which I believe had a hell of a lot to do with wrestling's abs especially Hogan's boom in popularity. I've heard people say that someone else would have been there but I don't think they'd have gotten over like Hulk Hogan. I just don't believe that.

So all in all Vince was the right nan to bring wrestling into the mainstream and Hogan was the right guy for the job.

 

[TootsieBear]

Mostly no! Because Hulk Hogan was bigger than wrestling itself. Yes, talents like Rowdy Piper, André the Giant, and Ricky Steamboat. But Hulk Hogan was able to bring in the causal fans who rarely or don't watch wrestling.

 

[CrucifiedRaven]

Yes, Vince still would have made it.

It might not have boomed to the levels that it did. Or maybe it still would have, it's hard to say. But Vince still would have gone national, secured TV deals with USA or NBC, and the other promotions still would have gone out of business. Maybe they would have put up a bigger fight, but Vince was still plundering their talent.

Kerry Von Erich is a good choice actually to be that guy. So is Paul Orndorff. He had the physique and charisma that Vince loved, and easily could have been pushed as the face of the company with the right push, protection and promotion (which Vince did better than anyone). Plus he still had Randy Savage, Andre The Giant, Roddy Piper, Ricky Steamboat and tons of other top talent to choose from.

 

[daddyJ_t]

snuka was the handpicked by i believe vince sr and hogan had i believe been fired for doing rocky. so why not run with snuka for a bit. the cocanut incident with piper was enough to lead a decent feud along with his high flying from the top of the cage on backlund and the original rock. i mean honestly he so had the look and people loved him and he was hot after he had his face turn. they also couldve stayed with backlund who just dopped the title to shiek or even capitolized on gi joe and had srgt slaugter lead the way by beating shiek. vince wouldve made it, just wouldve taken longer to get to the hieghts he got to

 

[CrucifiedRaven]

snuka was the handpicked by i believe vince sr and hogan had i believe been fired for doing rocky. so why not run with snuka for a bit. the cocanut incident with piper was enough to lead a decent feud along with his high flying from the top of the cage on backlund and the original rock. i mean honestly he so had the look and people loved him and he was hot after he had his face turn. they also couldve stayed with backlund who just dopped the title to shiek or even capitolized on gi joe and had srgt slaugter lead the way by beating shiek. vince wouldve made it, just wouldve taken longer to get to the hieghts he got to

That's true, forgot about those guys. Sgt. Slaughter or Jimmy Superfly Snuka could have been pushed in that spot. Slaughter for sure, his feud with Iron Sheik was over and could have lead the company as the "all American" that Hogan was.

Maybe Vince and WWF don't reach the same heights as they did with Hogan, but Vince still would have made it.

 

[Soulblazed]

My picks for the 3 major wrestlers Vince could use if Hulkamania never was born-

Sgt Slaughter-With Slaughter powering out of Sheik's Camel Clutch and then choking him out with the Cobra Clutch and winning the WWF Title from him, he could easily have been the WWF's top face throughout the 80s and into the 90s, along with still appearing on the original GI Joe tv series..

Superfly Jimmy Snuka-I was reading Snuka's book in July and came across an interesting thing-Snuka was told by Vince that he was going to be the top face of the 80s, but ultimately Vince didn't push Snuka, which was clearly evident at Wrestlemania 1 where Snuka didn't even WRESTLE..He was simply on Hogan's team as an enforcer on the outside during the tag match...Had Vince chosen to push Jimmy while Snuka was still in his prime, things clearly would've been different. Maybe WWF would've started doing shows/PPVs in Hawaii in order to expand to the Polynesian fans..

Tito Santana-There was an old Tito shoot interview from 2000, I think, where he mentioned that in order for WWF to expand to Mexico/Central and South America, that Vince was gonna have Tito be their top face wrestler to open new markets for the WWF. Obviously that didn't happen, but hypothetically if Hulkamania was never born, then Tito could've definitely been one of the top faces as WWF expanded its market to Mexico/Central and South America.

 

[TheHitMark-SirJoseOle]

I am not going to say they wouldn't have made it without Hulk Hogan. The WWF had such an incredible plethora of stars. Jimmy Snuka, Don Muraco, Pedro Morales, Bob Backlund, and so many others that I just can't name them all.

However, with that said, while I still think he would have been aggressive in his vision, would his success have been the same without Hogan? That's a great question, one I could never definitely answer.

People often times overlook how over Hogan already was when Vincent J. McMahon fired him for refusing to take a booking under an agreement the then-WWF had with Jim Crockett Promotions to utilize Hogan for a show. Since Hogan had accepted the Rocky III part as Thunderlips. I'll always maintain that Verne Gagne just didn't realize what he had with Hogan for the long term. Granted, he teased the fans with the Hogan title changes, only to have things overturned. But man, Verne really could have had some great things going had he kept Hulk Hogan in the promotion.

I am not sure how accurate Greg Gagne's statement was with how the AWA was offered a prime time special on CBS, akin to what NBC ended up doing with the WWF for Saturday Night's Main Event, but I can believe it with how Hogan's star was just rising at that time. Had The Gagnes kept Hogan, guys like Andre The Giant and Jesse Ventura might have stayed exclusively to the AWA, as well as Tito Santana.

Instead all of those stars ended up going back to work with Vincent K. McMahon on an exclusive basis. Verne was just so hard-nosed on keeping things as "business as usual" that I'm not sure he would have tried to woo the Jim Crockett Promotions roster as well, like Vincent K. did with Bob Orton, Roddy Piper, Greg Valentine and others.

What was good about Gagne as a result was also bad, because while he was very stringent and difficult to work with according to some, he really did develop a great roster of talent and wanted to do his best to ensure that wrestling was available to his audience. Had him and his son taken McMahon's approach they would have either put several promotions out of business like Vincent K. did or he would have had to attempted to fill the void that the WWF had, because despite my opinions on McMahon doing what he did, not EVERY organization was ran out of business.

Some promoters just undid themselves in the way Verne Gagne did. But regardless, whatever people say about Hulk Hogan, it's hard to really bet against the reliability and staying power he had. Even as a fan of his, I know I will reek of bias, but time has proven that for ten years, he was Vincent K.'s go to guy. There were other great performers and while I was a huge fan of guys like Randy Savage, Rick Rude, Curt Hennig, Bret Hart and many others in addition to Hogan, no one could really match the "IT" factor he had.

I still have faith Vince would have had a good product without Hogan, but would it have been as great as it had been? I'm not really sure, because a lot of great talent followed in the wake of Hogan's return in 1983. Had Hogan been appeased in the AWA, many of that talent that either debuted or returned to the WWF on a full time basis probably would have just stayed put. And maybe even the JCP talent would have jumped too.

Who's to say? All I know is that at the end of the day I wish that some aspects of the old school edict of running a wrestling promotion had stayed intact. But hindsight is always 20/20.

 

[The Man of Steel]

No.

Hogan was larger than life. Charismatic. He had SUCH a massive connection with audience. No other worker would of made WWE what it is today. Sure, he could of got it to a level.. but without Hogan it would never of taken off.

Give give credit to Piper also. My personal opinion, without Piper, No Hogan and Vice Versa.

 

[Bagpipes]

No.

No other worker would of made WWE what it is today.

Whoa now, let's not get ridiculous by calling Hogan a worker. Hogan was probably one of the worst in-ring workers in the history of pro wrestling... BUT, that's what people liked at the time. Lame, predictable move sets and "the look".

Hogan was good for the business, but he was not good.

I'll always be partial to Flair over pretty much anyone from the Golden Era, but Flair didn't have the type of personality that would allow his gimmick to be at the mercy of the masses.

Vince would have made it, but as a few others said, it would have probably taken a lot longer and been a lot tougher road without Terry.

 

[Jack-Hammer]

This is one of those paradoxes. You know, like which came first, the chicken or the egg?

Call it fate, destiny or sheer dumb luck, but both Hulk Hogan and Vince McMahon were in the right place and the right time. Hogan was a guy with the image, he was the guy who seemed to embody something that a MASSIVE amount of people were looking for by the mid 1980s: an old school, super patriotic hero. The Vietnam War had been over for nearly 10 years and because of the craziness of the 60s and 70s, there was a strong sense of pessimism that was present in society that wasn't there before. People no longer trusted the government, some of those who did with a passion found their entire world turned upside down, a lot of people were no longer the bright eyed optimists they once were, the world was simply no longer black & white.

Hulk Hogan was, essentially, an old school comic book character brought to life. He was extremely patriotic, family friendly, endorsed Christian values & beliefs, had a larger than life physical stature, was loaded with energy & personality and had just enough cartoonish appeal to come off as non-threatening. He was somebody that was able to offer that clear cut distinction of this is right and that's wrong that was prevalent in old school fictional heroes. In old school comics, for instance, the "good guys" always had a rock solid, clear cut vision of what the "right thing" was and wouldn't compromise it for anything. But, without Vince McMahon's marketing ideas and the World Wrestling Federation as a launching pad, I think there very well may not have been a Hulkamania. I think Hogan may have ultimately fizzled out and just became another wrestler in time. Vince had a different mind set for a changing time than other wrestling promoters did. Vince saw that the widespread availability of cable, satellite and syndicated television was going to radically change the way people watched professional wrestling. He knew that it was about to change the game and he also knew that it was an opportunity to take his promotion to unheard of levels of popularity and profit. Hogan was the persona while Vince was guy with the vision. The WWF would have still existed had Hulk Hogan not been there, but I think there's a possibility that it wouldn't have risen to the level it ultimately did and has.

 

[MCMG]

It is impossible to try and suggest what would have happened. Hogan was so pivotal in the history of pro wrestling and the WWE. Vince would have been successful without Hogan but not to the same extent. He would never have become a billionaire that's for sure. Hogan needed the WWF too. They build their company around him and he became a megastar. In wrestling you need an opportunity and McMahon gave that to him.

 

[THTRobtaylor]

It's called Synergy... when something is greater than the sum of it's parts and there were a lot of parts to the WWF's success from 84 onwards.... Vince was a big part, Hogan another but it was also the right mix of talent underneath, the right celebrities used and some costly but fortuitous cock ups like the Stossell/Dr. D incident or Belzer being injured by Hogan.

Vince was gonna take over the WWF anyway, and was gonna launch a similar attack but the results would have been wildly different without Hogan. He was able to capitalise on the Rocky III thing but also that Hogan had made friends with Mr. T... that led to his use on the show but without that, who does his replacement be? Who was actually "bigger" on TV at that time than Mr. T who could be a "tough guy" enough to get into the ring? Would it have worked without Piper in there and Shultz or Ventura in his place? Would it have worked without Paul Orndorrf being the "silent" partner to Piper or Orton the "insurance"? It's impossible to speculate.

Cyndi Lauper's part cannot be understated, nor that of Tito Santana, Andre and even Greg Valentine, Sheiky Baby, Big John Studd and Matt Borne. It's a misnomer to say Savage, Jake etc.... Vince didn't have them for the first Mania. On paper Mania's undercard is quite weak by what was presented later but the event was more about proving it COULD be done rather than it being "the best event ever". Once that start had been made, they could raid more talent, have more "marquee matches" and build the business. In Hogan Vince had a face he could build it all round and KNOW it would sell, in Piper a heel everyone wanted to love but was so obnoxious they wanted him to get beat up and a roster that lent itself to a cartoon show, guys like Volkoff were next to useless in the ring by that stage but as the cheesy character on that cartoon, gold... that led to the toys, ice cream bars...

Realistically if it's not Hogan then it's Ventura had he not gotten hurt as the heel and potentially Piper as the face... but it wouldn't have worked the same way or drawn the same. So much came together at one time and so much luck came Vince's way that it couldn't be done otherwise... even Hogan dropping Belzer unconcious from a headlock cost him a few quid, but it was priceless mainstream exposure that got over the idea "this is REAL" even when it wasn't...

Without these guys it'd may have gotten there... Kerry is a no way shout, Flair wasn't gonna work as a face for "up north" and Andre wasn't quite charismatic enough... Snuka had blown his chance (and it was a big chance) by killing his woman... there was too much heat there to make his push stick (to this day I am amazed Vince used him at Mania 1 at all) short of Vince making an offer to Ali to wrestle at Mania 1 there was no one to get it over to that level there then... the money to make the talent raids, the want for them to go there and the buzz that resulted was a product OF Hogan, Vince and Mania... not there before.

 

[JoeyJoeJoe]

I think Vince could have done it without Hogan, but he would've had to raid the NWA/WCCW roster for someone like Koloff, Von Erich or Magnum T.A. to do it. This obviously would've delayed the WWF, as these guys probably wouldn't have been available til 1986 or 1987 (and we're assuming that Magnum didn't end his career first). I think the question is really would Vince have made it to the same degree that he did, or would he have just been "merely successful". The degree of success has to take into account Hogan's appearance and his charisma. They weren't going to find another 6'8" muscled monster who played up so well to the crowds. The good thing is that they would've still pushed with their national expansion, and would've won on those grounds. The question is whether JCP would've survived in this new world or would they have made the same business mistakes that forced the sale to Turner.

 

[MrMojoRisin]

It's so hard to say what would have happened, but let's look at it.

In 1984, without Hogan, VKM still absolutely needs to get the title off of Backlund to move forward, and the WWF model at the time was to build around one star. Who is that star?

- Andre's possible, but he's starting to break down by this point, and it's doubtful he ever would have given up his Japanese tour dates to be VKM's top guy
- Savage is still a year away from being ready for the WWF, and a few years away from being ready to carry a company that size
- Kerry Von Erich is my choice. The Von Erich's popularity probably rivaled Hogan's in 1984, and that was without the WWF machine behind them. Knowing what we know about Kerry now though... I don't know if he had the right mindset to handle a role like that long term. Honestly though... he's the best babyface I can think of from that time to put in Hogan's spot. You need someone with that 'it' factor to replace Hogan and replicate the success they had with him... and Kerry Von Erich is probably that guy.

A lot of it would have then depended on how Kerry could handle the role, and how well Piper did. Keep in mind, that Roddy Piper probably had as much to do with Hogan getting over like he did as Hogan or McMahon did themselves. You still need Piper as the main heel to the champ.

Piper and Von Erich mesh like Piper and Hogan did (good chance since Piper was at the top of his game at that time), and McMahon probably still has the idea to risk everything on Wrestlemania. If Wrestlemania is still a success, it doesn't matter if Von Erich can't handle the Hogan role too long past that. The WWF wouldn't be going anywhere but up, and now enough time's past that others are closer to being ready to step in. Plus one bonus to this revisionist history... when they bring the Freebirds in, there's maybe a better chance that they stick around for a bit (Gordy wouldn't have stayed long though), and they recapture some Von Erich/Freebird magic in the WWF.

 

[Bruno's Sanctimony]

Re: Jimmy Snuka...

WWF was, indeed, building him up for the big push as the face of the company...even despite his complete inability to cut a promo. But when his girlfriend wound up dead in a hotel room and Snuka was the primary suspect, that push was stalled. Then, Hogan was sought out & signed, and the rest is history.

But even if not for the dead girlfriend, I don't think a Snuka push would have been long term. As I said, the guy couldn't cut a coherent promo to save his life. He was truly awful. The most coherent sentence ever spoken by the man was when he asked Piper "are you making fun of me?" as the Scot was dropping a shit-ton of tropical fruit onto a table to make him feel comfortable.

Speaking of Snuka promos....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3kamxT-P7no

 

[Soulblazed]

Re: Jimmy Snuka...

WWF was, indeed, building him up for the big push as the face of the company...even despite his complete inability to cut a promo. But when his girlfriend wound up dead in a hotel room and Snuka was the primary suspect, that push was stalled. Then, Hogan was sought out & signed, and the rest is history.

But even if not for the dead girlfriend, I don't think a Snuka push would have been long term. As I said, the guy couldn't cut a coherent promo to save his life. He was truly awful. The most coherent sentence ever spoken by the man was when he asked Piper "are you making fun of me?" as the Scot was dropping a shit-ton of tropical fruit onto a table to make him feel comfortable.

When I was reading Snuka's book I found out the reason why he's complete shit at cutting promos. He admitted that he's illiterate. Basically when he was in school, the only subject he liked was math. When it came to english class, he said he'd go out, swim and play with his friends on the island instead of learning english. A good example of this is when he had to deal with contracts. Instead of reading the contract himself, he'd entrust certain family members/friends to read the contract for him.

Ironically enough, you mentioned Roddy Piper. Now, even though Piper's not illiterate, Piper admitted that he's never read a full book in his entire life.

 

[Mustang Sally]

While considering this topic, we might also ask whether the whole explosion would have occurred had Hogan not taken the part of "Thunderlips" in Rocky III. Sure, pro wrestling has always been filled with over-the-top personalities, but Hogan's performance in that movie truly brought the concept to the forefront, and I always wondered whether Vince got the idea of using Hogan's personality the way he saw it displayed in the movie.....or whether the idea had occurred to McMahon even before the movie, with Vince deciding he had now found the man to play the role he had envisioned.

Reading about the beginnings of the new era in wrestling, I'm of the mind that Hogan gives himself way too much credit. He talked constantly of "having taught the wrestling business to McMahon," which I consider ridiculous....while not paying enough homage to Vince's own unique ideas.

Conclusion?...I agree with those who say the pairing of the two men was instrumental in bringing about the new era, but without Hogan, Vince would have found a way to make it happen.....maybe not to the degree it attained with Hogan......but the entire wrestling landscape would have been changed by McMahon's ideas in some other direction. He had already started it by expanding his territory into a national operation instead of limiting the operation to regional shows.....all of this done before Hogan ever left AWA.

Maybe someday Stephen King can write a story showing history splitting into an alternate course (King already did this with the Kennedy assassination), giving us a world in which Terry Bollea never joined WWE, instead becoming a full-time bass guitar player for a local band in Clearwater, Florida after Verne Gagne folded the AWA, while Vince McMahon's World Wide Wrestling Federation became the overwhelming force in pro wrestling, led by their top performer, Randy Savage ("Whatcha gonna do when Macho Madness runs wild over you? Oh, yeah!")

Vince would've found a way.

 

[relentless1]

No, Vince couldn't have done it without Hogan. For those of you who don't know the history, Hogan was HUGE in the AWA before coming back to the WWF, he was made into a superstar because of his appearance in Rocky 3, he already had the massive fan following that would only get even bigger once he returned to the WWF. There was just something about the guy, he had such charisma and the fans swallowed it up, much more so than Snuka or Slaughter ever had. They would have made decent replacements but Vince wouldn't have hit so hard in the mainstream without Hulk. Imagine one of those guys spearheading the Rock n Wrestling connection? Or putting the success of the first Wrestlemania on somebody else's back? It wouldn't have worked, Hulk was really the only guy to do it I think.

 

[thebarber]

Interesting topic. I have read somewhere many moons ago that Vince juniors back up plan was to steal Magnum TA from NWA if Hogan didnt catch fire.
Nobody, even Vince himself could predict the mainstream superstar Hogan would become, already having had exposure in Rocky III helped his cause but his look andwork ethic
outside of the ring could not be matched by anybody. I do believe Vince still would have gone global, but in saying that. Wrestlemania 1 was an all or nothing event for Vince financially and if the main event didnt have the hot angle of Hogan,MrT-Piper/Orndorff with the MTV link, the event may have been just like another Starrcade that NWA was running two years prior.e
Without Hogan, he would have had success but not to the exstent that he did.

 

[FlairFan2003]

Well, in 1984 Randy Savage was still in the territories as some posters have pointed out, I believe Steamboat was still in the NWA (didn't he wrestle Tully Blanchard at Starrcade 84 ??). In 1984 Magnum was barely getting started, he really gained steam in 1985 (his association with Dusty Rhodes & feud vs Blanchard were huge for him).

Von Erich certainly had the look and was a solid in ring performer but he also had a huge drug & alcohol problem that routinely affected his work. This is a main reason the NWA refused any long term investment in him as champion despite how over he was in his run vs Flair in 84 & 85, if it wasn't for his brother's death and the Texas Stadium Show in his honor he probably never gets his 2 week token title reign.

Now Verne Gagne might not have had the long term vision re expanding nationally that Vince Jr (and Jim Crockett Jr) had but he knew he had something special in Hogan. Hogan has stated he turned down the AWA offer to be champ because of the amount of his earnings he would have to kick back to Verne (other wrestlers have told similar tales about Gagne, including Flair when he first left the AWA to join the NWA).

As far the 1984 WWE roster I don't see anyone who could have carried the ball the way Hogan did. If Savage was there at the time maybe, but he wasn't. Likewise Dusty Rhodes wasn't leaving the NWA because he had major backstage power he would have ceded in WWE (Crockett still believed Flair was a more viable World Champ than Dusty but he let Rhodes get his way on almost everything else). Im not sure Flair could have played the "hero" character as Hogan did, his appeal was for more mature audiences and the NWA and SuperStation TBS allowed him great freedom as a heel with his language and promo content. Can you build a national expansion on a heel ?? Well, maybe, in fact the NWA was very competitive with WWE during this time despite Hogan's popularity and Crockett's lack of marketing skills as compared to Vince, but the NWA also had a great hero in Dusty. Even if WWE signed Flair in 1984 (unlikely since he was extremely loyal to Crockett and well paid too boot) who would have been the defacto hero always opposing him ?

This is aspect I feel people forget. Hogan was given a great nemesis in Roddy Piper in his first two years, and Savage was a great enemy afterwards. The hero isn't worth much without a great enemy. James Bond fights billionaire psychopaths bent on world domination, often aligned with rogue military commands or a private army of world class assassins, he defuses nuclear bombs and escapes being dropped out of airplanes, he doesn't battle shop lifters and write parking meter violations. Hogan was big enough he made $$ against opponents such as Bundy, Earthquake, Henning, etc but what really put him over were his runs vs Piper & Savage, Bobby Heenan's obsession with him gave another great foe. It isn't just Hogan, it's the opposition.

Does Vince still go national with no Hogan on the US wrestling scene ? Probably, he didn't sign Hogan to go national, he went national and Hogan was there. Besides, thanks to the expansion of basic cable service Crockett & NWA were already cultivating a national presence. Would Vince have prevailed ? Probably because his background in arena management gave him experience in production values and presentation that Crockett sorely lacked, giving his product the cleaner, more polished look regardless of the in ring product. His shows would have “looked better” and appeared more professional in presentation making them seem “bigger, better” by comparison. Vince’s product was also more accessible to children which would have helped his mass appeal (at the same time Hogan was encouraging kids to “say your prayers & take your vitamins” Flair was on TBS bragging about how many women he slept with promoting infidelity, excessive parting, and was often heard dropping very non kid friendly vulgarities during his matches (you never heard Hogan scream “Oh Shi%” or “Holy F%$#” when getting pounded by Savage the way Flair would against The Road Warriors for instance). The fact the Crockett completely missed the value of the merchandising - no action figures, very limited T-shirts and posters available almost exclsuively at live events, he was at the forefront of marketing event videos to fans who couldn’t watch the super shows live but he missed out on millions in revenue streams not having the shirts and posters in regular retail environments and not marketing action figures at all (The AWA actually marketed Ric Flair dolls in the mid 80s, as well as Jimmy Garvin & The Road Warriors, all while they were wrestling for the NWA!!!!!!!!)

So yes, I think Vince goes national even if there is no Hogan, I don’t who he brings in as his centerpiece hero character however, and I think that he ultimately would have been more successful than Crockett due to his edge in production techniques and huge edge in marketing and all the added revenue that brought in. Vince was also smarter about his travel schedules, focusing his touring in WWE strong holds and only occasionally running shows in rival territories, making those shows seem like “special events” with better chance to draw more while saving on travel expenses by venturing outside his core area less (as compared to Crockett who wanted to run monthly or bi monthly shows in WWE and AWA territory routinely, making them less “special” at the expense of tour dates closer to home where travel money was less but attendance was consistently high. Crockett had a better roster and way better matches but Vince, with or without Hogan, was a better business strategist. He goes over with or without Hogan, it just would have been a slower rise to prominence.

 

[FlairFan2003]

Interesting topic. I have read somewhere many moons ago that Vince juniors back up plan was to steal Magnum TA from NWA if Hogan didnt catch fire.
Nobody, even Vince himself could predict the mainstream superstar Hogan would become, already having had exposure in Rocky III helped his cause but his look andwork ethic
outside of the ring could not be matched by anybody. I do believe Vince still would have gone global, but in saying that. Wrestlemania 1 was an all or nothing event for Vince financially and if the main event didnt have the hot angle of Hogan,MrT-Piper/Orndorff with the MTV link, the event may have been just like another Starrcade that NWA was running two years prior.e
Without Hogan, he would have had success but not to the exstent that he did.

WrestleMania was patterned after Starrcade because those events were drawing near million dollar gates at a time tickets prices didntt exceed $10-$15, which was unheard of in 1983-85 time, with over a hundred thousand people paying to watch the events in empty arenas on video screens via close circuit.

This is one of those paradoxes. You know, like which came first, the chicken or the egg?

Call it fate, destiny or sheer dumb luck, but both Hulk Hogan and Vince McMahon were in the right place and the right time. Hogan was a guy with the image, he was the guy who seemed to embody something that a MASSIVE amount of people were looking for by the mid 1980s: an old school, super patriotic hero. The Vietnam War had been over for nearly 10 years and because of the craziness of the 60s and 70s, there was a strong sense of pessimism that was present in society that wasn't there before. People no longer trusted the government, some of those who did with a passion found their entire world turned upside down, a lot of people were no longer the bright eyed optimists they once were, the world was simply no longer black & white.

Hulk Hogan was, essentially, an old school comic book character brought to life. He was extremely patriotic, family friendly, endorsed Christian values & beliefs, had a larger than life physical stature, was loaded with energy & personality and had just enough cartoonish appeal to come off as non-threatening. He was somebody that was able to offer that clear cut distinction of this is right and that's wrong that was prevalent in old school fictional heroes. In old school comics, for instance, the "good guys" always had a rock solid, clear cut vision of what the "right thing" was and wouldn't compromise it for anything. But, without Vince McMahon's marketing ideas and the World Wrestling Federation as a launching pad, I think there very well may not have been a Hulkamania. I think Hogan may have ultimately fizzled out and just became another wrestler in time. Vince had a different mind set for a changing time than other wrestling promoters did. Vince saw that the widespread availability of cable, satellite and syndicated television was going to radically change the way people watched professional wrestling. He knew that it was about to change the game and he also knew that it was an opportunity to take his promotion to unheard of levels of popularity and profit. Hogan was the persona while Vince was guy with the vision. The WWF would have still existed had Hulk Hogan not been there, but I think there's a possibility that it wouldn't have risen to the level it ultimately did and has.

Hogan’s character benefitted from the political climate of the time, Reagan’s Presidency and the Cold War, much like Stallone’s Rocky & Rambo films. Flair benefitted from the TV entertainment of the day, wrestling’s version of every wealthy, egotistical SOB we hated on Dynasty, Dallas, etc . Two guys who played great characters at the right time no doubt, but they did it extremely well, likely better than anyone else could have.

 

[elsayedhussin]

I think Vince could have done it without Hogan, but he would've had to raid the NWA/WCCW roster for someone like Koloff, Von Erich or Magnum T.A. to do it.