Women's Wrestling: Endangered Species?

[Little Jerry Lawler]

When I first started watching wrestling consisently, one of the things I always looked forward to was women's wrestling. I loved watching Ivory, Jazz, Molly Holly, Trish, and Lita among others compete. The women's division was very hot around that time.

However, I feel like over the past five years women's wrestlings has eroded and has almost faded into obscurity. Maryse, Michelle McCool, Beth Phoenix, and Melina still bring something to the table but you have your Maria's and Candice's that are just eye candy. I did admire how Candice tried to become a wrestler like Trish did but injuries hampered her. With seemingly Vince's obsession of the exterior I went from looking at a women's match as something special to now looking at it as a bathroom break.

So where do you place women's wrestling as a whole in the wrestling business? Do you feel like it can be revived and bring it back to the way it was in the early part of the decade or will it slowly fade into obscurity?

 

[Motor City Mayhem]

I place it as, like you said, a quick bathroom brake were I can go get my popcorn and get ready for the rest of the PPV/Show. I dont mind the fact that there are some Hot Divas around but your right, the days of Trish and Molly Holly were good Womens Division, they looked Hot and could wrestker dam well. But now even with Beth and Melina I think WWE just dosnt care anymore, The women dont get to cut promos, there not put into Men rivalries there just not the same anymore.

 

[HBK-aholic]

Women's wrestling does not interest me at all as a wrestling fan. It used to; sometimes more entertaining than a lot of the male wrestlers. But then came the rush of bikini contests as well as stupid matches (Gravy bowl match, anyone?). The credibilty of female superstard went down considerably, until they were nothing more than sex objects. While stars of the past generations were beautiful they also had at least some talent. Very few of the divas do today and there isn't enough of them to keep a whole division afloat. In my opinion they should stop marketing the women as wrestlers and simply use them as managers of models. It'd make SO much more sense.

 

[tLight]

Women’s wrestling in the WWE has been on a decline since Trish and Lita retired.

Then they made the Diva's title.....

They lost Victoria to TNA

They could have had something special with Beth, but they ruined it with the whole Santina/Santino story line.

It’s the same thing they do with every title in the WWE, they book it strong and solid for a good while, then they let it deteriorate, then they try to restructure and rebuild it and it never gets back to how great it once was.

 

[SophieDavies]

Let me be the first to say, I love you for starting this thread. Finally a womens wrestling discussion. With that being said, I have to say I completely agree with you where you said the days when Jazz Ivory Molly Trish and Lita were around made the womens division interesting.

The reason why I've always loved the divas is because they can do pretty much everything, given the right moment. Wrestling, adapting to a storyline, being a valet, the list goes on. But the womens divison in the WWE hasn't always been great. Back in late 90's early 2000, the women's storylines and opponents were very repetitive. Jacqueline, Sable, Luna, Ivory, Chyna and it repeats. Then you had the likes of Terri and The Kat who brought the eye candy to the show. So it really balanced it out.

From 2001 - 2005 the womens division got really interesting to me, and I got so involved in the storylines. The women competing for the title were some of the best womens wrestlers of all time. Of course you had a few that really lacked experience like the likes of Stacy and Torrie. But they were all very entertaining. However, after the split it seemed to be that RAW was the superior show therefore it had both the womens title and the true decent wrestlers. Smackdown had Torrie, Dawn, Melina and most of the eye candy type girls, who weren't the greatest wresters, but fan favourites.

The divas of today lack passion as far as I'm concerned. The writers seem to push the models and have the decent wrestlers job to them and carry their matches. For example, Jillian is one of if not the best womens wrestler the WWE have right now. The poor girl hasn't won a match in over a year I believe and it just goes to show how ridiculous it is. On one hand you have gorgeous girls who do have some sort of talent in the business. But on the other you have girls constantly botching, have zero mic skills and can't seem to bring the crowd to their feet.

I don't think that the womens division can and will be risen up from the ashes but the divison we do have right now isn't too bad. It's just a shame that Vince only sees the beauty of the divas and not those with the in-ring talent.

 

[drondog]

Whoever thinks Maryse is a wrestler and not eye candy is ******ed. She's the worst of all of them Kelly Kelly has more talent than her, but McCool doesn't suprise me winning the title, when your sleeping with the man with the biggest stroke backstage besides HHH, you'll get all the titles you want. Really the women's wrestling needs to go to their own show so it will show Vince how bad everyone hates watching there boring matches. The only way people watch is when their getting naked or close to it, I'm a man I don't wanna see them wrestle I wanna see them out in skanky outfits shaking their ass like they used to, I'm tired of the huricanrana's and the roll up, and the kicks most of them women give look to real and painfull, they have no buisness in the ring wrestling as they are only going to hurt themselves or someone else

 

[HBK-aholic]

Let me be the first to say, I love you for starting this thread. Finally a womens wrestling discussion.

Finally, someone to defend the women. It's been boring having everyone agree they're horrible .

With that being said, I have to say I completely agree with you where you said the days when Jazz Ivory Molly Trish and Lita were around made the womens division interesting.

Very true.

The reason why I've always loved the divas is because they can do pretty much everything, given the right moment.

Could the same not be argued for male wrestlers also?

Wrestling,

They do this better, by far. If a male wrestler wrestled as bad as one of the diva's he'd have been fired.

adapting to a storyline,

Depends. Beth Pheonix is good at this. But so is almost every male wrestler the WWE has.

being a valet,

This should be the sole purpose of the WWE divas. They'd be good at it. Taking on a valet/manager role would not only give a lot of the credibility, it'd also stop people wincing or going to the bathroom whenever they come on the TV. They aren't bad stars, they're just horrble wrestlers.

 

[SophieDavies]

Finally, someone to defend the women. It's been boring having everyone agree they're horrible .

I've noticed.

Could the same not be argued for male wrestlers also?

I obviously didn't make myself clear the first time. By everything I had ment that the women can pose for whatever magazine, have those god awful paddle on a pole bra and panties matches and still be able to pull off a good ol' wrestling match. I really wouldn't want to see another bikini showdown with Chuck & Billy thanks

They do this better, by far. If a male wrestler wrestled as bad as one of the diva's he'd have been fired.

Exactly. The womens division let's their talent improve on the show. Where as the male wrestlers are either good or gone.

Depends. Beth Pheonix is good at this. But so is almost every male wrestler the WWE has.

I have to disagree here, the women are brilliant at changing their gimmicks at any time. Take McCool for example, she went from a crowd favourite to a pretty decent heel in weeks. And done it rather well.

This should be the sole purpose of the WWE divas. They'd be good at it. Taking on a valet/manager role would not only give a lot of the credibility, it'd also stop people wincing or going to the bathroom whenever they come on the TV. They aren't bad stars, they're just horrble wrestlers.

I totally agree. Being a valet really works for the women, but also helps launch a singles career. Take Melina for example back in 2005, she was a valet for MNM and also wrestled matches against the Diva Search has-beens the same night.

 

[Little Jerry Lawler]

Whoever thinks Maryse is a wrestler and not eye candy is ******ed. She's the worst of all of them Kelly Kelly has more talent than her, but McCool doesn't suprise me winning the title, when your sleeping with the man with the biggest stroke backstage besides HHH, you'll get all the titles you want. Really the women's wrestling needs to go to their own show so it will show Vince how bad everyone hates watching there boring matches. The only way people watch is when their getting naked or close to it, I'm a man I don't wanna see them wrestle I wanna see them out in skanky outfits shaking their ass like they used to, I'm tired of the huricanrana's and the roll up, and the kicks most of them women give look to real and painfull, they have no buisness in the ring wrestling as they are only going to hurt themselves or someone else

Tsk...Tsk...Tsk

I'm not going to embarrass you because that's not what I do. Okay I'll do it.

Don't you think she would have had more titles besides her 2 if she was sleeping with Undertaker. Anyway that's irrevelant so there was no need to bring that up.

Maryse is becoming of the best women's wrestlers in the WWE. She has great ring psychology and plays her heel persona very well. A good looking woman can be a good wrestler too. New concept for you.

If you want to see women shaking their ass, go watch a rap video or go to a strip club. Too bad there's not a kitchen around or you'll be in heaven. And I guess if men botch it's okay but it's not for women.

Tsk...tsk...tsk

 

[Little Jerry Lawler]

Let me be the first to say, I love you for starting this thread. Finally a womens wrestling discussion. With that being said, I have to say I completely agree with you where you said the days when Jazz Ivory Molly Trish and Lita were around made the womens division interesting.

The reason why I've always loved the divas is because they can do pretty much everything, given the right moment. Wrestling, adapting to a storyline, being a valet, the list goes on. But the womens divison in the WWE hasn't always been great. Back in late 90's early 2000, the women's storylines and opponents were very repetitive. Jacqueline, Sable, Luna, Ivory, Chyna and it repeats. Then you had the likes of Terri and The Kat who brought the eye candy to the show. So it really balanced it out.

From 2001 - 2005 the womens division got really interesting to me, and I got so involved in the storylines. The women competing for the title were some of the best womens wrestlers of all time. Of course you had a few that really lacked experience like the likes of Stacy and Torrie. But they were all very entertaining. However, after the split it seemed to be that RAW was the superior show therefore it had both the womens title and the true decent wrestlers. Smackdown had Torrie, Dawn, Melina and most of the eye candy type girls, who weren't the greatest wresters, but fan favourites.

The divas of today lack passion as far as I'm concerned. The writers seem to push the models and have the decent wrestlers job to them and carry their matches. For example, Jillian is one of if not the best womens wrestler the WWE have right now. The poor girl hasn't won a match in over a year I believe and it just goes to show how ridiculous it is. On one hand you have gorgeous girls who do have some sort of talent in the business. But on the other you have girls constantly botching, have zero mic skills and can't seem to bring the crowd to their feet.

I don't think that the womens division can and will be risen up from the ashes but the divison we do have right now isn't too bad. It's just a shame that Vince only sees the beauty of the divas and not those with the in-ring talent.

I agree with what you said about the divas lacking passion. The same can be said for most of the male wrestlers as well. Honestly, I believe Jillian is the 2nd beast women wrestler behind Phoenix but she was stuck with that stupid singing gimmick and has totally ruined her. I do admire those who are bettering their wrestling skills such as Maryse and Kelly Kelly.

 

[HBK-aholic]

I obviously didn't make myself clear the first time. By everything I had ment that the women can pose for whatever magazine, have those god awful paddle on a pole bra and panties matches and still be able to pull off a good ol' wrestling match. I really wouldn't want to see another bikini showdown with Chuck & Billy thanks

Oh come on, you know you found that sexy .

Exactly. The womens division let's their talent improve on the show. Where as the male wrestlers are either good or gone.

The WWE is the top wrestling industry in the world, and have plenty of smaller wrestling companys as well as their own personal recruitment processes where they find new stars for the business. It's here wrestles, male or female, are supposed to improve their talent. Only the best should be on TV, and that applies to either gender.

I have to disagree here, the women are brilliant at changing their gimmicks at any time. Take McCool for example, she went from a crowd favourite to a pretty decent heel in weeks. And done it rather well.

..As do most wrestlers. The Undertaker has pulled off how many different gimmicks now? John Cena went from white thug rapper to the best wrestler in the whole world. From hated to loved in weeks.

 

[SophieDavies]

Oh come on, you know you found that sexy .

If it was Shawn Michaels & Randy Orton, I'd be up for that. But Billy Gunn & Chuck Palumbo? That's just walking right into a nightmare.

The WWE is the top wrestling industry in the world, and have plenty of smaller wrestling companys as well as their own personal recruitment processes where they find new stars for the business. It's here wrestles, male or female, are supposed to improve their talent. Only the best should be on TV, and that applies to either gender.

I see your point and I hold my hands up to that. But since the women most of the time, only have one match a show, they don't need to be at the top of their game. Hell, there is always room for improvement when the women are concerned.

..As do most wrestlers. The Undertaker has pulled off how many different gimmicks now? John Cena went from white thug rapper to the best wrestler in the whole world. From hated to loved in weeks.

Oh of course, but I wasn't trying to compare the divisons. I was just simply stating that the women are brilliant at adapting to storylines and changing their gimmicks. I already know full well that the men can do this, if not better than the women. But I was just praising the women this time.

 

[Little Jerry Lawler]

The women have more time and wiggle room than the men when it comes to improvement. Kelly Kelly has been developing over the past year and I believe is a few months away from being champion. The male counterpart might not have that same timeframe to improve before he is subsequently released.

 

[Coco]

Maryse is becoming of the best women's wrestlers in the WWE. She has great ring psychology and plays her heel persona very well. A good looking woman can be a good wrestler too. New concept for you.

Thanks for posting this. One thing that kills me about the way that Maryse and Michelle are being talked about is that they have that skinny blonde model look going for them and somehow that makes it bad to like them. People seem to overlook how good they are as heels or (especially in Michelle's case) how athletic they are. It's absurd and I like to equate them to being the male versions of Chris Masters, who I always found to be underrated. Masters had his gimmick and the basics down so perfectly but he got no-sold by a lot of people for being "just another body-builder." The shit we give good looking people is crazy sometimes.

I'm pretty much where you are on the division, LJL. I enjoy watching the likes of Michelle, Maryse, and Mickie. But you put a lot of them on my screen and I can't stand them. Beth has gone as far as she can and I found her to be overrated to begin with. Jillian is overrated and is never going to be booked to go anywhere anyway. Kelly isn't quite there. I'm not digging the majority of the female talent.

 

[Sean Valjean]

Say what you want about TNA, but one of the things they do right is their women's division. The knockouts actually have individual characters, gimmicks, and storylines.They also get WAY more mic time/promos than the divas. Even if some knockouts aren't actually going after the belt, they'll STILL be apart of some sort of angle. Hell, they even have a stable in the Beautiful People.

The WWE don't do this; all of the divas are the same, especially the faces. The only one with a real gimmick is Jillian, who, unfortunately, is the job queen. With the exception of Jillian and Maryse (who I love) they're all bland, cookie-cutter barbie dolls. They rarely have a storyline that goes beyond "She wants the women's title, so she fights the champion" and unless they're a champion or number one contender, they don't get to do anything at all outside of pointless bikini contests or random backstage appearances until it's their turn to fight for the belt, if they get a chance. Some of them may be good wrestlers (Mickie, McCool, Gail Kim) but that's all they have going for them.

I'm not saying they all should have some sort of gimmick, but at least give them SOME character depth (or character in general) to give each of them their own flavor because right now, all I see is Generic Diva #1 vs Generic Diva #2

 

[Heel?]

Well, first of all, this is a fun topic and also, I'm guessing where it reads "Women's Wrestling: Endangered Species?" it really is supposed to read "American Women's Wrestling: Endangered Species?". Does anyone watch Joshi? Anyone know what that word even means?

Anyways, I'm going to agree with a lot people and say Maryse is a good superstar. Good in the fact that there are very few botches on her part and when she does something correctly the crowd acknowledges it in some way. Even if that means a cheap pop when she does that (hot) hair whip thing by the ropes, OH OH, and when she does the rear chinlock (when that things goes down I get jealous I'm not a diva). Cheap as it may be (it's cheap considering the crowd is male dominated and she's quite attractive) it's still better than *blank stare* or *Japanese "this sucks" silence*.

Also, I think Alicia Fox is a talent. She's kind of cute, she can wrestle and she looks like no one else on the roster. If I ask, "who's that chick that wrestles with the afro?" there can only be one person I'm asking about.

I used to think Kelly Kelly was a good wrestler until I saw the "kick, opp. holds it, *5 second pause* (legit...5 seconds), flip over" spot in every match. I remember when I first saw it, I said, "whoa!" I was surprised she pulled it off. Now it's very predictable and she's not hitting it as well as she used to. Plus, the pause in between the kick and the flip gets longer and longer. There was a period where she was starting to do all of these lucha moves and then BOOM! nothing.

I like Beth Phoenix too. Mostly because I've seen a lot of matches where her opponent botches something and she covers it. She seems like a good ring general...maybe the Triple H of the divas.

I could talk about the other divas but to be honest I don't remember any matches they've had. They all need more exposure to get over and to get better. I would say that Natalya is a good wrestler but she barely wrestles so I have no examples of what technically makes her a good wrestler. Although...I could assume that she is just from her last name and her pre-WWE credentials, but this isn't the internet where I would have the ability to do that. Oh wait...

 

[Cheech 72]

Say what you want about TNA, but one of the things they do right is their women's division. The knockouts actually have individual characters, gimmicks, and storylines.They also get WAY more mic time/promos than the divas. Even if some knockouts aren't actually going after the belt, they'll STILL be apart of some sort of angle. Hell, they even have a stable in the Beautiful People.

The WWE don't do this; all of the divas are the same, especially the faces. The only one with a real gimmick is Jillian, who, unfortunately, is the job queen. With the exception of Jillian and Maryse (who I love) they're all bland, cookie-cutter barbie dolls. They rarely have a storyline that goes beyond "She wants the women's title, so she fights the champion" and unless they're a champion or number one contender, they don't get to do anything at all outside of pointless bikini contests or random backstage appearances until it's their turn to fight for the belt, if they get a chance. Some of them may be good wrestlers (Mickie, McCool, Gail Kim) but that's all they have going for them.

I'm not saying they all should have some sort of gimmick, but at least give them SOME character depth (or character in general) to give each of them their own flavor because right now, all I see is Generic Diva #1 vs Generic Diva #2

Cheer this man! There are a few good wrestlers in WWE but thats it. TNA Knockouts are actually the hottest thing going in TNA besides MEM. There are always fresh angles and matches that you actually look forward to at a PPV. TNA also gives Victoria a chance to shine. I miss the days of 5 divas that could wrestle and a few that were just managers or eye candy. Nowadays all the divas are eye candy, and maybe 3 can wrestle. How many divas are there anyhow? 20? 18 not counting Tiffany and Lillian Garcia. If I see another 6 diva tag Ill hurl. And WTF are they doing with Gail Kim? The most talented diva on the roster has to suffer because she went to TNA. Damn shame.

 

[Canadian Knight]

It should not be but there is a chance. Maryse while she looks good IS eye candy, but then again Trish was the same way. Maryse will have to wrestle harder and work harder so she could be identified as a legitimate wrestler. The only way that women's wrestling does not go south is that they have to have the women wrestle and wrestle good. Yes you can have eye candy but you have to make sure that alot of them can wrestle and put on a great match.

 

[Tenta]

Quite frankly, while I appreciate the art that is Women's Wrestling, I don't place much stock into it, especially when you consider the current crop of women that Vince has rolling around in the ring right now. I feel that one of the negatives of the Attitude Era was that it completely eviscerated women's wrestling from relevance. Vince decided that he didn't have to have his lasies wrestle well; they just had to look really pretty, and just stand there. When gthe actual matches came out, they were atrocious, and to some extent degrading to women. Unfortunately, Vince has kept that same mentality, yet he can't have the matches he would really like top right now. He pigeon-holed himself in terms of women wrestling during the Attitude Era. Beforehand, the women's wrestling that I did witness, I enjoyed. My favorite matches would usually occur in WCW, between the likes of Madusa, Luna Vachon, Bull Nakano, etc. I feel that, if booked correctly, women's wrestling could be an effective portion of the broadcast, and can be enjoyed. Some wil argue that women aren't as strong, nor as quick as the men in the ring, or that they can't be better workers. I'd argue the latter two, but the former is not of the Women's Wrestlers control; it simply is a body structure. Otherwise, I feel that a women's match can be just as entertaining than a man's match. However, the wrestler's have to be booked properly.

In short.... Wrestling women are enjoyable... But it isn't why I go out to the shows. It's one particular reason, though.

 

[big guy]

Women fucking suck at wrestling. They are a waste of time. I don't even watch when the divas matches are going on. I just recline my chair and take a nap. They should replace all womens matches in WWE and TNA with HLA.

 

[Viola Moonlight]

Women fucking suck at wrestling. They are a waste of time. I don't even watch when the divas matches are going on. I just recline my chair and take a nap. They should replace all womens matches in WWE and TNA with HLA.

Hmmm..... though I do change the channel occassionally during womens matches they are not a waste of time & they dont suck at wrestling. Only the women meant for eye candy or valet status (full-time, not part-time like Natalya) arent that good.




As for my own input, an advantage for this new PG era which is an iffy subject with me leaning slightly towards the negatives, is that women's wrestling can be focussed on wrestling. The equation Women + PG = Entertainment does not make sense, seeing how anything involving Entertainment & Women usually involve anything above the PG borderline.

With that in mind, Im hoping that with the way the WWE is revamping itself for the next generation of WWE fans to make up their universe, they will consider bringing prestige to the womens division. There are such great women wrestlers in WWE right now that if booked right, could compete with TNA's women division. Seriously, TNA gives their female wrestlers mic time & promos. TNA's newest acquisition is given vignettes & hype for her debut???

Consider the following names:

Mickie James, Beth Phoenix, Michelle McCool, Kelly Kelly, Gail Kim, Natalya, Maryse, Melina, Alicia Fox

Don't you think with these women on the roster, developing or developed, that a womens division can be created??? WWE has the tools (the wrestlers), the support (us & many other hopeful fans) & the plans (creative, seeing how they are starting to realise what creative means). However, the engineer (VKM) has no clue what to build, or rebuild as a matter o' fact.

As with many aspects with wrestling, Im remaining hopeful for the future as long as VKM doesnt stay in charge for the next 20 years & keeps insisting he is the white version of Chris Rock. Otherwise Im going to have to pay the AWF $1200 to study full-time for a Bachelor of Sports/Bachelor of Entertainment majoring in professional wrestling to one day join the WWE and do something Chris Jericho is doing very well at but cannot complete by himself (refer to signature at bottom).




I'd rather sit on my ass, go on the internet & discuss whats wrong though.

 

[Bernkastel]

I agree with what you said about the divas lacking passion. The same can be said for most of the male wrestlers as well. Honestly, I believe Jillian is the 2nd beast women wrestler behind Phoenix but she was stuck with that stupid singing gimmick and has totally ruined her. I do admire those who are bettering their wrestling skills such as Maryse and Kelly Kelly.

Remember that wrestler and entertainer are basically the same thing, what's the point of Jillian doing a bunch of fancy moves if she can't even get the audience to care about her? Same with Phoenix, neither of them wouldn't even make my top 3 on the roster.

Why would you say that the divas today lack passion? Are most of them not making an effort to improve? And the one's that can wrestle, are they not trying their best to entertain the crowds? If anything I see the divas of today putting forth more of an effort to be entertaining than their diva counterparts from half a decade to a decade ago. Mainly because they've already been stereotyped.

 

[tru fan]

I believe that since Trish and Lita retired from wrestling, the women division has gone down. I blame the creative team for misusing Victoria and Beth Phoenix. The women use to fight in matches that were more hardcore than they do now. The stories are not as exciting as in the past. I will become more of a fan of the wwe divas if they pick up their skills in the ring.