WM10 Ladder Match Went Too Long?

[The Brain]

I recently watched a little bit of an interview with Rick Martel. I’m not sure how old it was so some of you may already be aware of this but it was news to me. According to Martel his match at WrestleMania X did not take place because Shawn Michaels intentionally went way over time in his ladder match with Razor Ramon.

Supposedly Michaels and Razor were given ten minutes but ended up going twenty. Martel said he didn’t really care about being bumped because he had already been at several manias, was still going to get paid, and was losing his passion for wrestling at the time. The match was going to be a ten man tag and Martel felt bad for some of the other guys that were supposed to make their mania debut, 123 Kid, Smoking Gunns, Jeff Jarrett. Martel said Randy Savage confronted Michaels and chewed him out about being selfish by going over time and costing ten guys their spot on the card. I find this interesting and have a few thoughts on it.

1. Only Shawn’s name was mentioned. What about Razor? Why wasn’t he blamed?

2. Vince was doing commentary that night. Obviously he couldn’t react to something during a live ppv but if someone was openly defying him right in front of his face during a live broadcast of the biggest show of the year you would think he would have been at least a little flustered during commentary. I think Vince knew how long the match was going to go even if the guys in the ten man tag did not. Shawn and/or Razor probably approached Vince earlier in the day and convinced him they needed more time to make the match work. Vince agreed and decided to bump the ten man tag without telling anyone until the last minute. I think that’s more likely than Shawn just deciding to go over time during the match.

3. Didn’t things turn out for the best? That ladder match is one of the greatest matches in mania history and one of the most influential matches ever. Imagine if it only got half the time. It would have been nice if guys like Kid, Jarrett, Tatanka, and IRS got on mania but I’m glad one of mania’s best matches wasn’t sacrificed in order to get what would have been a forgettable ten man tag on the show.

Anybody have any thoughts on this?

 

[klunderbunker]

This doesn't sound right.

The ladder match getting ten minutes doesn't make sense. The first one was at least 15 if I remember right, so why wouldn't you give the one on the big stage that much time? Yeah the show was running long because of stupid stuff like the mixed tag and the Earthquake/Adam Bomb segment (to this day I have no idea why that was on the show), but to blame it on the ladder match is an odd statement to make.

Finally as Brain said, the ladder match was the match of the year and one of the greatest matches of all time. I have an issue trying to care about ten lower midcarders not getting on the show because apparently Shawn went double the time allotted, despite no one else ever complaining about this. If you're going to blame someone, blame Vince for putting stuff like the Women's Title match on the show.

 

[Papa Pillman]

Even if this whole story is somehow true, and even if Vince was completely unaware and Scott and Shawn took it totally upon themselves to let the match go as long as they saw fit, I find it hard to believe Vince would have been getting too upset or frustrated as he sat on commentary simply due to the quality of the match that was unfolding in front of him.

 

[Poop Master Flex]

*cough* BULLSHIT *cough*

 

[Shocky]

I've heard that Triple H vs. the Rock at Summerslam went long, but not this ladder match. The Rumor was the SS 98 match got a pass because of Austin breaking his jaw in the main event and Taker having to drag a good match out of him. This is new to me.

 

[#tamale]

Scott Hall talked about this in an interview. He said Savage confronted him about it stating that they were very selfish. Hall did say they did cut into their time but he didn't say how much time they had for the ladder match.

I agree with KB. They had Bam Bam and Luna vs Doink and Dink and the Earthquake-Adam Bomb thing. They could have scrapped those two for the 10 man. I also think that around the time, the Kliq was just getting heat for things that they weren't responsible for.

 

[The Warlord]

I have the utmost respect for Randy Savage and believe he's one of the greatest of all time....but he was in the wrong on this one.

Whether it's true or not about Savage confronting Michaels in a negative manner about going too long....he had no business doing so. So they went 19 minutes??? How can you possibly put on a quality match with only 10 minutes allowed?? This wasn't filler either....it was a highly promoted Intercontinental championship match, a title that meant alot more then than it does now.

If anything Vince should have been thrilled about the outcome of the match....going down as one of the greatest of all time, easily the greatest that year. Who has the right to be pissed outside of Jarrett, Tatanka, IRS, and the other fore-mentioned names?

Savage may have stuck up for those guys, but if you ask me...he was probably pissed that his match with Steamboat at Mania 3 was eclipsed and was no longer the greatest Wrestlemania match ever. In my mind it's not even a question...although this is a whole different debate that can be discussed in another thread. Savage was a jealous man by nature....again, that too can be discussed at another time.

In the end it's all about the fans. Find me one who would have traded that classic to see the 1-2-3 Kid and IRS in a 7 minute snoozefest?

Just giving you my $.02....most likely opened a can of worms on this one though.

 

[Shocky]

Savage vs. Steamboat takes a huge heaping shit all over the Mania 10 ladder match.

 

[The Warlord]

Savage vs. Steamboat takes a huge heaping shit all over the Mania 10 ladder match.

I beg to differ.

In fact Savage/Steamboat just MIGHT be the most overrated match in the history of professional wrestling...and that's not me talking shit. You're talking about people/fans praising it as one of the greatest pro wrestling matches ever...that covers A LOT of ground.

Was it great for it's time? Absolutely. It was unbelievable...FOR IT'S TIME.

Do yourself a big favor and go back and watch the entire bout. Now put that match on Smackdown or Raw and it won't even get mentioned today. The bar has been raised quite a bit since then...and the ladder match at Mania 10 blew that away.

I guess my definition of what makes a match great is different than the majority..

 

[The Crock]

I beg to differ.

In fact Savage/Steamboat just MIGHT be the most overrated match in the history of professional wrestling...and that's not me talking shit. You're talking about people/fans praising it as one of the greatest pro wrestling matches ever...that covers A LOT of ground.

Was it great for it's time? Absolutely. It was unbelievable...FOR IT'S TIME


Do yourself a big favor and go back and watch the entire bout. Now put that match on Smackdown or Raw and it won't even get mentioned today. The bar has been raised quite a bit since then...and the ladder match at Mania 10 blew that away.

I guess my definition of what makes a match great is different than the majority..

This is a bit much, honestly. I never had a chance to see Steamboat/Savage live (obviously, I'm too young), yet it's one if my favorite matches of all time, having aged very well for a match from the 80s. To say that it would go unmentioned today is one of the most ridiculous things I've EVER read on here. It was a great match between two if the greatest in-ring performers in the history of professional wrestling -- that's the type of thing that stands the test of time. Trust me, having first seen this match years after it happened, I can assure you I was blown away.

The bar hasn't been raised, so much as spotfests have become more of the norm. The attitude era stunted people's attention spans and completely flipped the definition of what made a good match (to most fans) on its head. That doesn't change the fact that Savage/Steamboat was a beautifully wrestled match.

Just like Shocky, I'll take Steamboat/Savage over Razor/HBK -- especially when I factor in the respective builds (because the build to Steamboat/Savage is great, even all these years later).

EDIT: Seriously, go back and watch Steamboat/Savage again. Those last few minutes (the finishing sequence especially) are gold.

And because your post got me thinking, my personal pick for a legendary match that I think is overrated is Hart/Michaels at WrestleMania. At first, I loved it... but the more I think about and the more I watch it, I can't help but think it's largely filler until the end.