Winter is Coming - The Night is Dark and Full of Spoilers

I'm with Norcal on the handling of Baelish this season. The guy had so much build-up as the most dangerous man in Westeros, and to see him not actually get outsmarted, but just implications that Bran saw all the things he did is a beyond cheap way for the character to go out.
 
Littlefinger went to shit the moment the show went away from the books. They simply had no idea wtf to do with him as LF is one of best and most complex characters in the series.

Hated the finale. The season was one of the weakest out of the lot. The fact that shit feels rushed in the seventh season points to bad writing.
 
The one thing I felt was missing from the demise of Littlefinger was that once he recognised he was done for, there should have been a complete falling away of his facade. The snivelling and grovelling should have faded away to be replaced by the totally emotionless, meglomanical sociopath I believe him to be.

He didn't love Catelyn. He saw her as a means to an ends and he was denied her. He didn't love Sansa. He is incapable of love.

To fit in with his character, he should have looked Sansa right in the eye and asked simply "when?", giving her and Arya a chance to explain that their whole falling out, even down to the dagger scene behind 'closed doors', was basically staged to fuck him over.

And anyone complaining that Littlefinger was done away with too easily, it must be remembered that for all his scheming, he remained immensely unpopular. Despite his many positions, he retained little real or secure power. His lordships, even of the immense Harrenhal, were useless politically and militarily; his position as Lord Protector relied on his control of Robyn Arynn and ability to manipulate the Knights of the Vale while his position in the North relied solely on manipulation. All Sansa and Arya had to do was get Yohn Royce onside (not hard as Royce will surely take over as Lord Protector of the Vale) and then offing Littlefinger became rather simple even if it was presented as needing Bran's powers.

It also should be noted that when given leave to present a defence, he chose to try to flee to the Vale, which in that kind of court would be used as a confirmation of his guilt.

In any kind of reality, his encouraging of Sansa to kill Arya is enough to have him executed.

Mighty NorCal said:
BTW Barbs, it's a damn shame we didn't do a GOT recap weekly podcast on Chrome Dragon.

It's big business, that.
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Pretty sure I did suggest that at one stage. Pity the timetable didn't sync up.
 
Барбоса;5741245 said:
The one thing I felt was missing from the demise of Littlefinger was that once he recognised he was done for, there should have been a complete falling away of his facade. The snivelling and grovelling should have faded away to be replaced by the totally emotionless, meglomanical sociopath I believe him to be.

He didn't love Catelyn. He saw her as a means to an ends and he was denied her. He didn't love Sansa. He is incapable of love.

To fit in with his character, he should have looked Sansa right in the eye and asked simply "when?", giving her and Arya a chance to explain that their whole falling out, even down to the dagger scene behind 'closed doors', was basically staged to fuck him over.

And anyone complaining that Littlefinger was done away with too easily, it must be remembered that for all his scheming, he remained immensely unpopular. Despite his many positions, he retained little real or secure power. His lordships, even of the immense Harrenhal, were useless politically and militarily; his position as Lord Protector relied on his control of Robyn Arynn and ability to manipulate the Knights of the Vale while his position in the North relied solely on manipulation. All Sansa and Arya had to do was get Yohn Royce onside (not hard as Royce will surely take over as Lord Protector of the Vale) and then offing Littlefinger became rather simple even if it was presented as needing Bran's powers.

It also should be noted that when given leave to present a defence, he chose to try to flee to the Vale, which in that kind of court would be used as a confirmation of his guilt.

In any kind of reality, his encouraging of Sansa to kill Arya is enough to have him executed.



Pretty sure I did suggest that at one stage. Pity the timetable didn't sync up.
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There may yet be hope. More to come.
 
From Davos joking about Gendry still rowing, to openly teasing Cleganebowl, to Kit Harrington's perfect arse, this was a season of wish fulfilment above all else. Even all the Dornish characters were imprisoned or brutally murdered (and frankly deserved it). Basically all the characters you wanted to see interact had some contrivance force them together at some point. I liked it.

HBO should do an adaptation of Saga next. An oversimplification of it would be to say it's to Star Wars what Game of Thrones is to Lord of the Rings. I'm doubtful I'm the first to suggest this.

Edit:

I do think Littlefinger had feelings, or thought he did, for Catelyn, and this fed his obsession with her family (that and revenge after he was immasculated by the Starky Boyz). Having only seem season 6 and 7, I can't say whether the books differ with the show in this regard.
 
Haven't had a good internet connection so I missed the chance to complain about the finale right after seeing it. Biggest thing first, Aegon Targaryen is so fucking stupid.

They could have picked any other name from the history of their line and they picked the one name that was already taken? Are they that unoriginal or just stupid? Rhaegar was obsessed with prophecy. That's the reason he got with Lyanna to begin with not because he was so instantly in love. Sure, they might've fallen in love later but Rhaegar's thirst for having three heads of the dragon (meaning three kids) was far more important at the beginning. He wouldn't have named his third child Aegon. He already had an Aegon!

And the idea that Robert's Rebellion was built on a lie is halfway decent but they acted like it would've been no big deal had they known that they loved each other. Did everyone miss the Red Wedding? That's what happens when you break a marriage vow. Lyanna and Rhaegar were breaking marriage vows and in doing so would've at least - bare minimum - caused Dorne to declare war, House Baratheon to be ultra pissed and likely at war also thus calling the banners for all of the Stormlands. The show presented the idea that everything would've been all good if people knew about this secret wedding when in reality people would've still be furious and war would've happened.

The Littlefinger scene was so painful to watch. I don't get what the dagger was a symbol of or why it was so important. Littlefinger admitted to owning in it season 1 and it ended up in King Robert's possession. It was used to try and kill Bran but Littlefinger wasn't at Winterfell and would've had no idea about the fall and had no clue where the dagger was kept. We know for a fact it was Joffrey who hired the catspaw to kill Bran in an attempt to please King Robert (he had said killing children in that situation would be a mercy).

Sansa overseeing the trial and outing herself as a liar to Bronze Yohn Royce about the death of her aunt was hilarious but I doubt we see any fallout from that.
 
And while I believe R/L will end up being Jon Snow's parents in the book, I'm more convinced than ever after how badly the show has butchered the whole thing that Ashara Dayne and Ned Stark were fucking. Considering how poorly this entire thing was explained, with numerous plot holes, I think that the events post Tower of Joy (including Ned's trip to Starfall where Ashara kills herself) up until Ned's return to Winterfell will be vital in the overall story of what truly happened. The show of course has removed these elements and that is why I think it's coming off so badly, at least to me.

It is rumoured that Ned was keen on her at one point, remembering that Ned was never supposed to marry Cat and did so only after his brother died. He wasn't deeply in love with her, I think he was in love with Ashara Dayne. I think it's very possible that Ned killed the Sword of the Morning, went to Starfall not only to return the sword but also be like "hey, i'm married we can't do this anymore and I killed your brother, soz." I think it was a both the loss of her brother and the loss of the man (Ned) she had come to love and knowing he would never break his vow to Cat, that caused her to kill herself. Of course, this could all be wrong and Ashara Dayne might've just be struck with grief over her brothers death and the show might be right to ignore the Starfall trip completely because it has no value.
 
Yeah, I think the whole story of the dagger has been confusing from the very start.

The show hasn't butchered the Ashara Dayne storyline at all. It removed it altogether and hasn't been poorer for it in my opinion. A good enough job was done in presenting Ned Stark as an honourable man that his cheating on Cat just seemed wrong and out of place - which has now been proven to be right. It also fits into the on-going idea that Ned was too honourable for the politics of Westeros.

I think the whole "Robert's Rebellion was based on a lie" is not exactly how this will be portrayed. It was based on a misunderstanding instead. And even as Lyanna was a willing eloper, Rhaegar still 'stole' Robert's wife. On top of that, it must be remembered that Lyanna's 'kidnapping' was only the spark for the rebellion. The powder keg of rebellion was there due to the actions of the Mad King. And while it is called after Robert, it really was not his rebellion. It was Jon Arryn's. Technically, Ned could have ended up king by getting to King's Landing first. Robert only became King due to his Targaryen blood. "Robert's Rebellion" is a hindsight name.
 
I want to try answering a couple of stuff, give my two cents and see if I am nuts or not.

Dorne- The reasoning behind the departure of Dorne from the war falls on a few points.

1- There is now no leader. In order for Elleria Sand to take control she and the Sand Snakes murder Doran Martell and his son. This leaves Dorne without an heir. once Elleria is captured and the Sand Snakes killed there is no one to rule. This means that now all the major houses of Dorne must fight, argue and decide who will be the next ruling family; a process that would probably take some time.

2- Even if Dorne decides to continue with Elleria's plans their army must now march overland north to King's Landing through enemy territory. Highgarden and The Stormlands are now in Lannister control. What was supposed to be a ship ride up to and then a siege of King's Landing has now become a long, dangerous march.

3- The Iron Fleet would pose a threat that may make the new leader of Dorne decide to stay home. If the Dornish army marches north then Dorne would be vulnerable to attacks from the sea.
All said and done I think it makes sence that Daenerys would believe Dorne to no longer be an ally.

Littlefinger- I do not think it was poorly done and poorly explained but rather was very subtly brought to the forefront all season long. In all the seasons after the first, none have alluded to season one as strongly as season 7. Here are some examples:

When Tyrion attacks Casterly Rock he quotes Bronn from season one about impregnating the bitch.

When Tyrion contacts Jon Snow he mentions the line about dwarves being bastards to their fathers that he says to Jon in season one.

Nymeria, who we haven't seen since season one.

Arya saying to Nymeria thats not you, a reference to season one when she says thats not me, refering to herself.

The note Sansa wrote from season one.

Jon calling Daenerys Dany and her saying only her brother called her that, from season one.

Dany and Varys discussing all the plans for her and her brother from season one.

Dany mentioning the assassin from season one.

Jamie saying he learned the trick of splitting his army from Robb Stark defeating him at The Battle of Whispering Woods from season One.

Catspaw dagger, which we have not seen since season one.

What does all this mean? If you caught it all it gets you remembering season one. What was the biggest unanswerd mystery from season one? Who sent the assassin to kill Bran Stark. The dagger should bring that to your mind. Now, we know Tyrion did not do it, and we know the dagger once belonged to Lord Baelish. Truth is the only reason we think the dagger ever belonged to Tyrion is because Baelish said so. So technically the only owner we really know for sure is Baelish.

Now, all the sneaking and schemeing going on between Sansa, Arya and Baelish was alittle confusing, but I believe by design. The real key was Bran. When Arya and Sansa are talking Arya tells Sansa about her list. When later they go to see Bran he makes reference to Arya's list even thought he was never told. Now the girls know Bran knows stuff he shouldn't so whatever he tells them they will believe. Look at Baelish's face when Bran tells him what he said to their father when he betrayed him.
Everything was there, it just took that final piece to make it all fit together.


Da Prophet said:
The Littlefinger scene was so painful to watch. I don't get what the dagger was a symbol of or why it was so important. Littlefinger admitted to owning in it season 1 and it ended up in King Robert's possession. It was used to try and kill Bran but Littlefinger wasn't at Winterfell and would've had no idea about the fall and had no clue where the dagger was kept. We know for a fact it was Joffrey who hired the catspaw to kill Bran in an attempt to please King Robert (he had said killing children in that situation would be a mercy).
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No, we don't. Joffery is never hinted at having done it in the show. You are thinking of the books, where even there it is never stated as fact but rather a belief of Tyrion and Jamie.

As for the distance, you have to account for the time things take. While it seems like a day on the show King Robert and his entourage probably stayed there about a month. Ned Stark says it would take about a month of travel from King's Landing to Winterfell so I doubt they only stayed a day or two. With Littlefinger's network of spys I believe he could have put the plan into action to try to have Bran killed. It did not even need to succeed, as long as he coulsd blame the Lannisters for it and start a fued between the two houses.
 
Littlefinger admits to owning the dagger in the show back in season 1. LF killed the hand of the king through Lysa and he killed Ned through Joffrey. He plans this stuff out really well to cover his own ass. Why on earth would Littlefinger have the catspaw use his own dagger?
 
Da Prophet said:
Littlefinger admits to owning the dagger in the show back in season 1. LF killed the hand of the king through Lysa and he killed Ned through Joffrey. He plans this stuff out really well to cover his own ass. Why on earth would Littlefinger have the catspaw use his own dagger?
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Because he needed a dagger that would appear to belong to a Lannister. The dagger was what was remarkable about the attempt on Bran's life, which is why Cat brought it to Baelish. Baelish then lies about the dagger and says it is Tyrion's. Remember, if it was actually Baelish then his planned worked for years and the only reason he was caught was because Bran became the Three Eyed Raven and could see everything.

Plus using your logic I would ask why the hell Joffery would give The Catspaw a Valyrian steel dagger and not just a regular one?
 
Turns out that the books may have told us Jon Snow's real name from very early on.

I was doing a bit of research for a blog post and came across a mention of Dani's vision in the House of the Undying in A Clash of Kingsand how she saw Rhaegar telling Elia to name their son Aegon because he is 'the prince who was promised.'

However, when you read the passage in ch.48, Dani does not identify the woman in her vision as Elia, speaking only of a woman with a babe at her breast, who Rhaegar tells to name the boy Aegon. It is Jorah who identifies the woman as Elia and the boy as her son Aegon.

Chances are that this is Lyana and Jon Snow, although Rhaegar being present to see the birth of 'Jon', particularly if it led to the death of Lyana, seems unlikely.
 
I think it's exactly what it appears to be and that's an example of Rhaegar's obsession with prophecy. The Aegon they mention is his second born and not Jon Snow.

And chances are, the timeline of course being muddy but fairly well put together by people throughout the years so we have a decent understanding, that Rhaegar dies months before the Tower of Joy. Likely at least two months after the Battle of the Trident is when Ned Stark arrives at TOJ. Therefore, it would be impossible for Rhaegar to have ever seen any baby born in the tower since when Ned arrives he finds his sister in a bed of blood (which would point to a recent child birth rather than one 3 months earlier).

I think that vision is purely to establish how Rhaegar was obsessed with prophecy and that reinforces why he would've looked for another woman to produce a child since Elia was unable to have another and the dragon must have three heads.
 
You are probably right.

It is interesting though that in both tellings of Dani's vision - first its actually taking place in the House of the Undying and then in her retelling of it to Jorah - there is not mention of the woman being Elia. Dani herself only refers to the woman as "woman" and "wife." There is also no hint of where Rhaegar and his wife are - Dragonstone or Dorne. It is only Jorah who seems to make the connection to Elia.

Rhaegar does however speak in the vision of needing a third head of the dragon, with the intimation being that he wants a third child (something that Elia would prove unable to give him), meaning that the child in the vision is Aegon and not Jon; although in that moment of speaking of the third head of the dragon, the vision of Rhaegar is looking directly at Dani.

And yes, the timeline would seem out. The only thing that might help that is that is this vision really meant to be a snapshot of something that happened in the past? I would say yes, but given the motives of the Undying and the seeming dark nature of sorcery, can we really know for sure?
 
Well, wights have been proven to be able to survive under the water, as well as having a decent level of dexterity depending on their level of decay, so what would stop them from doing it?

The real issue with that though is what would stop wights going around the Wall, particularly on the eastern edge? To the west, the Gorge might be too high to enter the sea and the Frozen Shore too far away.

I suppose you could suggest that the sea on either side of the Wall is too deep so the wights would sink to the bottom and/or freeze. They are still organic material after all. The lake beyond the Wall might just be not that deep.
 
George Steele's Barber said:
I'm assuming the wights were sent down to hook up the chains in a "suicide" mission.
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But that brings the question of free will. If they dont have free will why did it take them so long to charge the gang when they were surrounded on the lake beyond the wall or at the very least why did only one of them charge when the rock was thrown?
 
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