Winner's Bracket Debate #3: hatehabsforever -vs- Killjoy

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  1. D-Man

    D-Man Gone but never forgotten.

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    Does Zack Ryder need to be repackaged in order to win a world title in the WWE?



    This is a first round, winner's bracket debate in the 2012 Wrestlezone Debater's League Tournament.

    hatehabsforever won the coin toss and will be the home debater. He's earned the right to choose EITHER which side of the debate he wants to argue OR who provides the opening statement. He can also defer this choice to his opponent. (The home debater has 24 hours to make this decision otherwise it is automatically deferred to his opponent.)

    After these choices are made, the first post of the debate must be posted within the first 24 hours otherwise it will affect the starter's Punctuality portion of the judging. Debaters have 24 hours to respond to their opponent's post and the faster the response, the better chance you have to score higher point totals.

    The maximum amount of posts for each debater in this round is three. Once this criteria is met, (or the allotted time of the debate runs out,) the debate will end and judging will commence.

    This thread is for DEBATERS ONLY and will end on Thursday at 2pm EST where judging will immediately begin. Judging must be finished no later than Saturday at 2pm EST.

    Anyone that posts in this thread besides the debaters, league admins, and judges will be infracted!

    Good luck to the participants.
     
    #1
  2. hatehabsforever

    hatehabsforever Moderator
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    Good luck to you, Killjoy. Here's to an excellent, competitive, respectful debate. Should be fun!

    I will take the position that no, Zack Ryder does not need to be repackaged in order to win a world title in the WWE.

    Let's do this thing!
     
    #2
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  3. ABMorales787

    ABMorales787 Lord And Master
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    Alrighty then. First off, I do NOT wish Habs the best of luck. That would mean me losing. :p

    Does Zack Ryder need to be repackaged in order to win a world title in the WWE?

    My objective is to say YES. That he does need to be repackaged. I look at that guy and my question is always a matter of... "What the hell do people see in that guy?"

    [​IMG]

    You look at some of the all-time greats of pro wrestling. Names like Hulk Hogan, The Rock, "Stone Cold" Steve Austin, Ric Flair, Shawn Michaels, John Cena and so on and you can pick a characteristic they all have in common: UNIQUE. They were all their own person, but their characteristics made them stand out above all others.

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    Ryder on the other hand, looks akin to a Goldust. A Koko B. Ware. Rick Martel, Disco Inferno, George Steele, Eric Young and so on.

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
    They were Flamboyant. And not in the sense of being "ambiguosly gay" or having elaborate wardrobes. I mean that their looks were what made them. The image and the way we say them are what drew us to them and it would end there. With Ric Flair, he had the fancy robes and the suits and the Rolex, but he was also a 60 minute man in the ring. Steve Austin was a badass on the mic and in the ring. Shawn Michaels was as big a show-off in the ring as he was during his entrances. On the other hand, George Steele was hairy and would eat the turnbuckle. Rick Martel bragged endlessly about himself. He did have his own cologne though. Disco... Was a disco guy. My point is... Does anything besides their look and gimmick stick out? Answer? NO.

    Zack Ryder... When think of him, do you think of his matches or skills in the ring? No you think about the goofy attire, the pop theme song and his obsessive internet escapades. That is most certainly not a full package.

    I found a case similar to Ryder's in which a wrestler underwent a change of gimmick as he rose to his main event status and decided to "interview" him about it.

    ==========================================================

    "John Cena. To the stand, please."

    *John Cena stands up*

    "John Cena, your rise in popularity began when you turned heel and adopted a white rapper gimmick, correct?"

    "That is correct."


    "As you gained popularity and became a face and ultimately became WWE Champion, what happened to the rapper aspect of your gimmick?"

    "I eventually left it behind."

    "Why?"

    "Do you imagine me cutting a rap promo after Randy Orton punted my father? Or asking if the Chain Gang is "here to represent" while there's some crazy black dude in a confederate uniform? No. I can't tell a story properly and doing it infrequently seems kinda pointless. I need to be taken seriously if I'm gonna be the top star of the company. I need to wrestle and make people get behind me. Carrying chains and hitting people with them limits what I can do as does the rapping and the look of a rapper. There's a reason Jack Swagger is consider to have flopped as a champion. No one took him seriously. He talked about all his sports achievements and looked just like some jock from Junior High. I'd rather save that stuff up for nostalgia."

    "Thank you, John. You may sit down."

    "I don't see the point. You can't see me."


    ==========================================================

    John Cena shows that if Zack Ryder wishes to eventually become a major star in the WWE, he will abandon his gimmick as an internet fan and playing a "goof" of sorts. It doesn't get more notable that the gimmick hinders him than now. WWE's refusal to have him in the midcard firmly or make him respectable just showed these last few months. After losing the United States Championship and being heavily pushed, he simply became the third wheel in John Cena's feud with Kane, became Eve's love-toy and more importantly, never won the title back. It seems to be a bigger sting that it was to Jack Swagger. A man of less importance in WWE's eyes who has lost the title himself already. Ryder's it tied to his gimmick. No matter the love the fans give him, he will just be seen as comic relief at best.


    I'll leave it at that for now and wait for Hab's response. Though I do doubt he can counteract my post. I did interview John "motherf*cking" Cena.
     
    #3
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  4. hatehabsforever

    hatehabsforever Moderator
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    Introduction

    As I stated in my preliminary post, I chose the position that no, Zack Ryder does not need to be repackaged in order to win a world title in WWE. I truly believe that the best chance he has of ever holding any of the major hardware in WWE is to continue with the current incarnation of his character, albeit with minor evolution along the way. Any repackaging of his current gimmick comes with significant risk of undoing all of the impressive progress his character has made over the last year or so. For me, this was a very easy decision to make, and now I will tell you why.

    Rationale

    To achieve significant success in WWE, to reach the pinnacle of the largest professional wrestling organization on a global scale, it takes a combination of in ring ability, mic skills, and well as charisma and the ability to connect with the WWE audience. For someone to reach the upper echelon of the company, they have to be able to combine all of these factors, but the most significant component to achieving individual success in WWE is the ability to connect with the WWE fan base, to make them care about you and be invested in you and how things proceed with you. Obviously, you have to be able to perform in the ring, and you have to be able to handle the stick, but all of this aside, if the fan base does not care about you, if they do not rally behind you, individual success such as attaining a world title is simply never going to happen. Hell, it may not happen anyway, but no matter how effective you are or competent you are in the ring, if the crickets are chirping while you are out there, there will be no world title in your future.

    Matthew Joseph Cardona, Jr, better known to us all as Zack Ryder, is a guy who debuted in WWE in 2006 . He has spent time in the various developmental leagues. He has been in tag teams, most notably with Curt Hawkins as half of the Major Brothers who, despite one brief stint as WWE Tag Team Champions in 2008, have the greatest claim to fame as being the "Edge Heads", the guys who dressed like Edge to assist him in his various affairs. He has been involved in a faction known as La Familia, along with Chavo Guerrero, Bam Neely, and Curt Hawkins, which was short lived and less than stellar. He has also spent some time in ECW, where as a singles competitor, he was the personification of anonymity. I do not plan to discuss this time in his career in any greater deal because, simply put, he was little more than a faceless, nameless jobber, a guy trying to establish himself and get noticed, but who was achieving very little success in doing so. Here was a guy who, once ECW folded, was struggling to even be shown on an episode of RAW or Smackdown. His entire career was spent in such areas as the dying days of ECW, Superstars, NXT, with the very occasional and unimpressive appearance on one of the two major shows. And these appearances were typically squash matches as part of the elevation process of other superstars. Never was this fact more evident than in August of 2010, when he received a WWE Championship match against Sheamus, only to be destroyed in 11 seconds in the second shortest WWE Championship match in WWE history. Clearly, Zack Ryder was going nowhere fast, except possibly on the train to future endeavors.

    Then, in 2011, Zack Ryder reinvented himself. Short hair. Sunglasses. Headband. Unconventional ring attire. Woo Woo Woo, You Know It! An Internet Wrestling show called Z! True Long Island Story. The fictional Internet Championship. YouTube. Twitter. A blatant Jersey Shore rip-off. The end result? The development of a significant, loyal, and vocal niche wrestling fan base. Zack Ryder signs and chants start emerging on RAW and Smackdown in increasing amounts. With a combination of hard work, perseverance, with a good dose of luck thrown in there, all of a sudden Zack Ryder, once a virtual nobody, is on RAW pretty much every week. He is involved in segments late in the evening, typically reserved for the John Cenas and Randy Ortons of the company. He's aligned with John Cena. He's showing up on PPV's. He wins the US Championship. All of a sudden the guy who for years was an eyelash away from being future endeavored (and no one would have missed him if he was) is a mainstay on the flagship program. Why? Is it his superb in ring ability? No. Is it his mastery on the microphone? Not so much. It is the fact that he has reinvented himself, he has connected with the crowd, and he has established a rabid niche fan base. He has forced the WWE brass to sit up and take notice. And he has been running with it and doing extremely well with it thus far. To suggest repackaging him now, and risk all of the progress that he has made would be career suicide at this stage of the game in my opinion. Zack Ryder has gotten where he has because of the persona he has worked so hard to create. Repackaging him now would put all of that at risk. A repackage at this stage of the game would likely result in Zack Ryder returning to the status of another Curt Hawkins. Who? Exactly.

    How exactly would one go about repackaging someone like Zack Ryder? What would you do? A sudden and inexplicable heel turn, possibly due to the actions of the vixen Eve? This would alienate his loyal niche fan base and turn them against him. How exactly would this elevate him into championship contention? What else would one do? Eliminate his catchphases, which are part of his appeal with the fan base he has created? Change his look, from a unique (and occasionally slightly obnoxious) character separate and distinct from the rest of the anonymous lower card, to revert back to resembling the sea of unknowns that he has managed to distance himself from? What has elevated Zack Ryder to where he is, and what could elevate him to the main event, where I'm sure he and his fan base would like him to be, is the uniqueness, the quirkiness, the likability of his persona. Repackaging the guy to get away from all of this will not send him on the path to a world championship. It will likely send him in the complete opposite direction, and I'm not so sure he can emerge from down there a second time.

    Conclusion

    I'm not so sure that Zack Ryder will ever see major titles in his future. Maybe he will, maybe he won't, I guess only time will tell. But in my opinion, the only chance he has of ever getting there is to ride the current wave of popularity he has been enjoying for the last 18 months or so. He has distanced himself from the other faceless jobbers who we can all state with certainty will never reach the top of the mountain. Once on par with guys like Curt Hawkins, Yoshi Tatsu, Heath Slater, Tyler Reks, and so many other guys who will never break through the glass ceiling, he has asserted himself into a position of prominence in the company with the creation and the evolution of the Zack Ryder gimmick and persona. He has rode this Jersey Shore schtick from NXT, from Superstars, from ECW, from near future endeavors, to John Cena's friend, to a mid card championship, and to a likely appearance at Wrestlemania 28, arguably the biggest Wrestlemania of all time. If he can continue his astronomical rise up the ranks of the WWE, slightly tinkering with and improving upon his gimmick, he may someday be able to ride it all the way to the top.

    I say if it ain't broke, don't fix it. Woo Woo Woo You Know It.

    Now, back to you Killjoy, dude, my broski!
     
    #4
  5. ABMorales787

    ABMorales787 Lord And Master
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    This would be right. If it were the 80's or the 90's. In todays world within WWE, what gets you to the top is the moves you make backstage. Who you know, what you say. Look at all the top stars and they all have something that connects them to backstage favoring. From Sheamus being Triple H's training buddy, to The Miz jumping at every media appearance possible and on. In today's world within the WWE, a detail like being over isn't enough to get you to the top.

    Daniel Bryan was over. And it wasn't until retooling of his gimmick mixed with an injury to Mark Henry that he became World Champion. John Morrison was insanely over at one point. Why was he held back and eventually released? The backstage held him back (more specifically, Melina). Ryder is pleading to the wrong people. The crowd can support him as much as they want, but that key element won't help him. And begging the fans to make the parties backstage listen seems to not come close to working at all.

    Why quote Wikipedia?

    Haven't watched it. I expect wrestlers in the WWE to star THERE. Not Youtube.
    You sure that's a WRESTLING fanbase? I often doubt that seeing how he doesn't get over with his in-ring abilities or his mic skills. He get's over by asking for it over open media. It's like the people use Youtube to become D or even F List people. Guys like Fred or... Damn, I can't name anymore internet guys. The problem with Zack Ryder regarding that? They are enjoying the wrong aspect about him. They wait for his newest episode or his latest tweet rather than what amazing thing he'll do on TV or in the ring.

    Getting pushed off a ramp, becoming Eve's plaything, losing to Jack Swagger, etc.
    Really? Turning him into a serious wrestler bordered on the obvious after Kane "hurt his back", Eve made him her "bitch" and became John Cena's ward for a lack of a better term. You talk about career suicide, the man was made to look like a complete and utter fool from January to February and now your big midcard mainstay who "is involved in segments late in the evening, typically reserved for the John Cenas and Randy Ortons of the company" has to beg, dress The Great Khali as a "broski" and carry a flag with Teddy Long's face on it to get on a team for a match at Wrestlemania. Shouldn't a "weekly mainstay that's over" just simply get the spot?

    You sure about that? If Zack's as good as you say, why be this goof that has to beg on the internet to get airtime? If he's as good as people say, we'll shine through no matter the role. Because that's what defines a true wrestling superstar. Look at Mick Foley, Terry Funk, The Undertaker, Shawn Michaels, Bret Hart or Hulk Hogan. All these guys underwent notable changes and still grabbed the spotlight. If Zack Ryder is as good as people claim, he can become a more serious wrestler and still retain the steady fanbase he's said to have.

    Well for starters, it would give him a backbone. I mean what "future WWE Champion" gets slapped around by a Diva like that? Look at John Cena, he just made her look like an utter skank. Ryder on the other hand, still begs for her attention. Guess that's what he's used to at this point. Begging for support.

    Like I said, true talent shine through no matter what. If Zack Ryder is as good as people say he is, if he's "World Champion material", he'll get them to care no matter what. It should be him who defines the gimmick, not the other way around.


    Those who are scared of Change are not fit to live in reality for they can not cope with it.

    Yeah. Word's of a "future World Champion". From "Whatcha Gonna Do?, to "Austin 3:16", to "If You Smell.." to "You Want Some? Come Get Some!" and now "Woo Woo Woo, You Know It". Swell. :shrug:

    [​IMG]

    And now for a pro-Ryder post...
     
    #5
  6. hatehabsforever

    hatehabsforever Moderator
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    With all due respect, Killjoy, that's hardly relevant to the discussion at hand. You may not see too much in the guy. To be perfectly honest, I don't see a hell of a lot in the guy myself, and I'm by no means sure that he will ever attain a world championship, whether he gets repackaged or not. All I am saying is that there is a far greater likelihood of him reaching the level of world champion by continuing with and expanding upon his current gimmick, rather than repackaging himself and essentially starting over. It took him a year and a half to emerge out of low card obscurity by riding the wave of his current popularity. Repackaging him will undo that in the blink of an eye. We may not see a lot in the guy, but plenty of people do, as evidenced by the response he gets from the IWC, but also, crowd response at live events, signs in the arenas, and merchandise sales. It is naive and inaccurate to suggest that he isn't closer to the main event today than he was in 2010 and earlier. Continuing his gimmick can continue to inch him closer. Changing it will end him.

    Let's be crystal clear here. The question at hand here is, does he need to be repackaged to win a world title, not whether or not he needs to be repackaged to become one of the greatest of all time, to become a Hall of Famer, to become comparable to Hulk Hogan, Stone Cold, and all of the other guys you listed. It's borderline silly to compare Zack Ryder to any of these greats. He doesn't have the in ring skills, the mic skills, or the charisma to be breathed in the same sentence as these guys, but that's not whats being debated here. The question is, does he have to be repackaged to reach the level of guys like Christian, the Great Khali, Alberto del Rio, or Jack Swagger, guys who have all become world champions, rightly or wrongly, which is something that can never be taken away from them. The question is not does he need to be repackaged to enter the main event and stay there for his entire career. The question is, can he become world champion with his current schtick, without being transformed, and I say, he can. Frankly, he probably won't, but he stands a much better chance of doing so by staying the course, rather than starting over.

    Incidentally I remember a guy who had a gimmick that some would consider a little bit silly, one that consisted of vintage jerseys, chains, a white rapper routine, and followers known as the Chain Gang. At WM21, he became WWE Champion with this gimmick, reaching a world championship without getting repackaged. Granted, he would not likely have been able to sustain this with this gimmick, and he was eventually repackaged, but again, that's not relevant here. He did become world champion with this gimmick, which is the point being debated here. You may know who I'm asking about, I think you may have interviewed him once.

    That's your opinion, and of course you are entitled to it. But a lot of people would apparently disagree with you. And the fact that he has a large and ever increasing niche audience who feels differently than you do, is the very reason why he can ride this wave to a possible world title, or at least, it's far more likely for him to do this than by starting over.

    I'm not so sure that Zack Ryder's gimmick or look is any more ridiculous than the Doctor of Thuganomics, yet that guy did parlay that routine all the way to the WWE Championship, something that Zack Ryder is more likely do do in his current incarnation, rather than going back to square one.

    No one has claimed that Zack Ryder is the total package. Neither was the Great Khali, or Alberto del Rio, or Jack Swagger, yet they did make it to become world champion, as Ryder is more likely to do as he is, rather than reverting back to what he was.

    When I think of Ryder, I don't think of his in ring skill or his prowess on the mic, no more than I did for the guys in the preceding paragraph. I think of a guy who knew he had to distance himself from the plethora of faceless, nameless jobbers who he previously was lumped in with, and he has done a tremendous job of doing so in a relatively short period of time. And if allowed to continue with and expand upon his gimmick, he at least has the chance to make it to the main event and win it, something which he has no shot at doing in a repackaged version.

    I'm going to bypass this whole interview thing, because frankly, I didn't get the point of it. I guess it was supposed to be amusing, but it didn't work for me. The bottom line is, comparing Ryder to Cena of today is really an irrelevant and unnecessary action, as it proves nothing. I'm not saying that Ryder will ever reach the career level of John Cena, who when all is said and done will be seen as one of the best of all time. In fact, I'm saying I doubt he ever will. What I am saying is that he has a better chance of skimming the surface of a world title, at least for a brief moment, with his current act, which frankly is quite an accomplishment for a guy who two years ago, could not get beyond Superstars or NXT.

    I disagree with this entire paragraph. We're not talking about whether or not Zack Ryder can become a "major star" in WWE, we're talking about whether he can become a world champion at some point, however brief or transitional, with his current packaging. We've covered this already, no need to discuss it again.

    I disagree with your assessment of his last couple of months. Simply put, he has had to take a back seat to established veterans such as the Rock, John Cena, Triple H, HBK, Taker, Jericho, our two world champions, and others as we head down the road to Wrestlemania. This is no disrespect to where he is now or how management perceives him. It is the simple reality that he, along with guys like Ziggler, Kingston, and others, have had to fade into the background for a while to make room for the larger names. Once Wrestlemania is over, several of these guys will disappear again, and the door will re-open for Ryder. And make no mistake about, he will become prominent again, and who knows, he may ride this prominence right into the main event in the forseeable future.

    All due respect, but this is IWC generated bullshit and I'm not buying it at all. To suggest that the only reason Sheamus is being pushed is because he is Triple H's buddy's is naive at best. The Miz is receiving countless media appearances because he too has gotten himself over, and the WWE is choosing to allow him to interact with the mainstream media, rather than the other way around. Obviously, having friends in high places is always a huge help. That's life and it's hardly unique to WWE. However, to suggest that you could get over in the 80's and 90's by hard work, but that you can't do it today, that's just silly. Zack Ryder has done it. The Miz has done it. Santino Marella has done it. It can be done today just like it could in the past. And Zack Ryder has a better chance of proving me correct in his current version, rather than returning to the sides of Curt Hawkins and Trent Baretta.

    Daniel Bryan was over, and he still is, and WWE will exploit this fact to further elevate Sheamus at WM28, after which Sheamus will look great by defeating a competent heel champion, and Bryan will be just fine afterwards as well. Not sure if Morrison was ever "insanely over", but even if he was, you cannot push everyone, he may be one guy who unfortunately slipped through the cracks.

    Ryder is not pleading to the wrong people. He is creating a niche for himself amongst a significant portion of the fan base, and it is paying dividends. And he may be able to translate these dividends into a shot at a world title. At least, it's far more likely with his current version, than as a Major Brother or a jobber. Crowd support absolutely will help him, it always does. And he has a far greater chance of becoming a world champion with it than he does without it.

    I didn't . Sure, I did some research on the Internet, including Wikipedia, then I translated it into my own thoughts.

    You're probably right here. After all, WWE (and TNA as well for that matter) doesn't put any emphasis or importance on such venues as YouTube or twitter these days :rolleyes: By the way, I assume you are still watching RAW and Smackdown these days?

    Lots of guys are getting noticed on various forms of social media, and are then trying to translate this into on screen success in their respective company. Nothing wrong with that, it's just that Zack Ryder has been doing it a little longer, and a little better, than some other guys.

    Yeah, I'm pretty sure it's a wrestling fan base, with plenty of overlap between wrestling fans and fans of other social media outlets.

    You are correct here in at least one thing. Ryder won't get over based only on his in ring abilities or mic skills. Frankly, he probably isn't good enough to do that, which would become obvious if he tried to get over by depending upon them in a repackaged form. He needs his gimmick and his niche audience to get over. As I said, I'm not sure that even then it will be enough, but at least it gives him a shot. Without it, he has no shot. At all.


    Already covered this. He is having to defer to the old guard in preparation for WM28. Once that's over and these guys vanish again, he will re-emerge again.

    I never said I thought Zack Ryder was good. Quite the contrary, I have suggested that he probably is not. He likely is not good enough to win a world championship if he has to depend upon his suspect in ring ability or his sketchy mic work, something which would become evident if he were to be repackaged. Under his current gimmick, he could coast into a world championship, potentially, which it could be argued he may not deserve. Without the gimmick, his shortcomings will be magnified, and he will never become a world champion.

    Who ever said he was a "true wrestling superstar"? Who ever suggested he was comparable to Hogan, Funk, Taker, or the other guys you listed? If people think he is as good as those guys and can rely upon his God given talent to get over, they're likely wrong. He needs his gimmick to have any shot at a world championship. Even with it, it may never happen. Without it, it definitely won't.

    Have patience, Killjoy, have patience. I would have thought a TNA guy like yourself would surely have more patience than this. You have no idea how the Eve/Ryder thing will play out. His lack of a backbone, his begging for attention, that's all part of his schtick. And when he stands up to her later and kicks her to the curb, his niche audience is going to love it. And he'll move another rung up the ladder toward that ever elusive world championship.

    Let's be clear here. I'm not a part of the Ryder Revolution. As I said, I'm not sure we will ever see the WWE Championship or the World Heavyweight Championship around his waist. But by maintaining the persona he has sculpted over the last 18 months or so, he gives himself the best opportunity to do so. If he can sustain his momentum and ride the wave, he could do the unthinkable, that being, transform himself from an anonymous Superstar on his way to Orlando, into a world champion in WWE. If he does not sustain it and attempts to reinvent or repackage himself, he's done, and we will be wishing his all the best in his future endeavors, sooner rather than later. Personally, I would prefer to see Ryder, when all is said and done, end up like Jack Swagger, having reached the top of the totem pole, albeit briefly, rather than end up like Tyler Reks, appearing on major WWE programming once every blue moon, as fodder for guys like the Funkasaurus, or worse, being forced to "cross the line".
     
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  7. ABMorales787

    ABMorales787 Lord And Master
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    You are telling me that a wrestler's look doesn't really matter? You have to sit and watch him, you might as well look at something pleasant. Basically you are telling me there are no problems with his current character and that it's OK for him to be Eve's bitch because soon enough, fans will annoy WWE until he's World Champion? Sorry, but I can't see that happening until he takes some sort of level of badass. Which departs from his character, ergo his gimmick. For now, he's just some goof in purple... whatever you call that tights/trunks hybrid, ugly sunglasses and headband.


    With wonders like MITB, Hornswoggle could win the damn thing and last a week. Let's be straight here. If a guy is to win a World title, it might as well be done right and properly built to rather than some throwaway. For Ryder that WILL mean changing his ground game. Why? What comedy character has ever stayed one when dealing with a World title?

    Are you sure? Because I remember a gradual drop of his rapping. He certainly wasn't rapping when JBL blew up his US spinner belt. Cena had to make room to show a more serious aspect and it led to him dropping his rapper aspect. He did indeed change his gimmick before winning the title. By the time he was on Raw, that aspect about him was mostly forgotten.
    Not relevant? Look at the bolded part. You just admitted that John Cena as WWE Champion would not hold well with the rapper gimmick and needed to change. How does this not apply to Zack Ryder? It is indeed relevant. And it indeed proves my point. Evolution is a key component to a star's rise in this business. Those who don't evolve, never rise up the card.

    A gimmick change isn't a reset button. I'm not talking about pulling a Kerwin White or a Joseph Park. It's a retool to the guy we know. Why can't Ryder just grow a backbone and be serious for once? It's characterization and evolves his gimmick, therefor changing it to something more fitting to a main event star. You'd think a guy who likes to ask "are you serious, bro?" could try to be serious, but he just isn't. And it hinders him.

    I don't know. Last I checked, the Doctor hung up the 'scope by the time he won the title and... The Champ was here. That's a gimmick change. He evolved.

    Again, you talk as if changing him meant completely overriding him right down to his ring name. If Ryder is truly talented and worthy of being a World Champion, he'd have no problem adapting to a new, more serious personality. I mean, Undertaker went from being a satanic priest to a dude on a bike. Should I lower the quality then? OK. Cody Rhodes went from a pretty boy, to Dr. Doom and now to a serious guy. Any reason Ryder can't do that? Great Khali was a giant and Alberto Del Rio was a huge jerk who won a variety of big matches. Jack Swagger, though considered a flop, did hold the ECW Championship and had various good showings vs John Cena as well as being a sound wrestler. Zack Ryder, has shown none of that and instead is popular due to actions he did outside the WWE. Why can't he adapt? What's so wrong with him adapting?

    He doesn't? Wasn't The Miz one of those "faceless" guys? He's stood out. What about Kofi Kingston? R-Truth? If you are talented in the ring, you will get noticed. But Ryder hasn't shown that as he's shown he has penchant for sucking up to the crowd. That's as far as we know about him.

    Aim high or go home. If one has the talent, they can get want and not be afraid of the changes needed to get there. It was my point about John Cena.

    So your remedy is basically "lets just give him MITB and win in a fluke". Just like MITB, that's a pretty cheap way to go through the work. Like I said, with that kind of stuff Horny could be World Champion, but we want something productive. Not a duck and cover move just to say: "Hey, he did it. Even if it was for 5 minutes."


    Well why shouldn't a World Champion be a major star? Isn't that what they are supposed to be? I'll indeed cover it again, because you just keep saying it's that easy to be World Champion. Are we looking for something productive here? Or just doing things for shits and giggles? You can't possibly tell me with a straight face that Zack Ryder, as he's currently portrayed, could be called a man worthy of holding the highest honor of pro wrestling. Being a World Champion is supposed to mean you can be a major star. Not being one means you will flop. We want something productive after all.

    Only if characterization marches in. You can't just simply look the other way after what's happened.

    [​IMG]

    Credibility is part of what makes us take talent seriously. If the talent isn't perceived as serious how can he work the typically personal and serious nature of the main event and World title? The support might be there for the guy, but just how right would it look if he beat a guy like Kane or Mark Henry or Chris Jericho? Those guys would suffer more than what Ryder would gain. That is not a very productive way to use a would-be World Champion.

    Boy, Santino looked great playing an imaginary trumpet after qualifying for the Elimination Chamber didn't he? That's one hell of a World title contender. NOT.

    The backstage does indeed carry a lot of weight. Because they are the ones who get the last words and the ones you are trying to impress. You can get John Cena to slap a headband and wig and him fist-pump with you, but if that guy with the draft board says that what you are doing now is not what we are looking for in the main event, no amount of fan support can say otherwise. Getting planted in a wheelchair, thrown off-stage being made to beg to a gold digger definably shows that. Fan's don't book the shows after all.


    So he'll lose crowd support if he becomes more serious? Seriously, we aren't talking about him becoming a traveling fish monger/wrestler named Wayne Mackarol. It's him being overhauled to be a more serious wrestler.

    Yup. Just saw our friend Zack Ryder running around with a leprechaun, dressing a giant as him and carrying a blue flag with a bald black dudes face on it. Major WC material.

    And he still can't parlay that into a main event push.


    Meaning that indeed, they care more about his vids than what he does on WWE TV, right? I mean, that why fans of his show would tune in to WWE, right? To see if he does the same stuff he does on the show?

    And once again, Habs admits there are faults. Characterization does wonderful things, you know? You ever watch Digimon? Watch it. Pick any season. You start watching as a stereotypical group of anime kids accompanied by an assortment of monster characters go through many rigors, learn about themselves and evolve to become people with new outlooks on life. If you didn't get the point, it's that people invest more on characters they see grow up than those who stick to a small claim to fame. I mean, the Green Ranger wasn't popular because of his fancy Dragonzord. It's because we saw him go from evil, to atoner to leader. Why can't we see that from Zack Ryder? What's the fear of seeing him develop and evolve?

    So him being side-by-side with John Cena did nothing? Apparently it didn't. I mean, he was U.S. Champion after being built up. Why did he fall behind, but not Cody Rhodes? Ah, wait. I know the answer to that one. Cody has evolved and we've come to know him far more than Ryder. Despite being Cody's equal at one point, all the chanting and Woo Woo Wooing did not help him keep up with Cody's evolution into a totally new character.


    But you just said he's not good enough. Basically, no matter how terrible you can be, using a comedy gimmick as well as asking via Twitter and Youtube is good enough to make a World Champion? Well I want Eric Young to be a TNA World Champion some day. You're telling me that sticking to his current gimmick can eventually make him World Champion because he's really popular with TNA's fanbase? Wasn't he closer to it when he was repackaged into a serious heel? I think so. Characterization led him to it.

    So the gimmick defines Ryder. Then he ain't all that good then. Which is something you have admitted to. Then why the hell should we make him World Champion then? Because the internet loves him? Sheesh. If that's the case, let's make Scott Steiner and Santino Marella World Champs too. The internet loves those guys and they get huge support with their gimmicks alone.

    Yeah, he's gonna say "Broski's over Hoeski's. Woo Woo Woo. You Know It. *fist pumps*". Major WC Material.

    That bolded part makes me thing you just can't see him as World Champion but are just nitpicking for ways of him to do it. I'll say it, he can. He can win it in a fluke the night after Wrestlemania. He could win Money In The Bank and cash in to take the title off a weak champion. But when picking your World Champions, there's an important detail to look to. Is it productive? I'll write my conclusion here:

    Can Zack Ryder Become World Champion With His Current Gimmick? Anyone can be booked as Champion. The true question is if that pick is productive. If that pick is not productive, making him World Champion would be an error. I consider Zack Ryder non-productive as World Champion in his current state. The crowd loves him, but that does not mean they are invested in him. That does not guarantee that feuding with main event caliber superstars can garner the needed build to generate PPV buyrates. He looked pathetic next to Kane. You think he would look any better next to any other top heel? That's kind of essential stuff for a potential World Champion to have and if his current state can't generate that, he is most certainly not a productive aspect in that particular field.

    With that I end my part of the debate. I await my opponent and the judges. I'll say this, I enjoyed it. I always love going against Habs because he's just a polar opposite to me. Thanks for the fun.
     
    #7
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  8. hatehabsforever

    hatehabsforever Moderator
    Staff Member Moderator

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    Pretty much everything you have suggested I am saying throughout this thread is misrepresented in this paragraph. I am absolutely not suggesting that a wrestler's look doesn't matter, in fact I'm saying quite the contrary. The wrestler's look is extremely important, in fact, it is the best thing that Zack Ryder has going for him with his current gimmick. If Ryder is ever going to hold a world championship, he will achieve it by capitalizing on the popularity that his look and his gimmick has afforded him. His in ring ability and mic skills are average; they alone will not be enough to get him over. He needs his gimmick to get over and to ascend to a world title. What they do with him when he gets there, that's another story beyond the question at hand in this thread. Without this gimmick, he's just another Curt Hawkins, and if you saw RAW this week, you know that's not a great thing career wise. Safe to say, there's no world titles in his forseeable future.

    I didn't say there are no problems with his character, of course there are. His character will need to be tweaked and tinkered with; he will need to evolve. But there's a huge difference between tinkering with his character, which every single wrestler does on an ongoing basis, and completely overhauling his character with a repackaging.



    If a guy is going to win a world title, it may as well be done properly. I agree with this statement, but it is irrelevant to the question at hand. "Done properly" is subjective; some would say that exploiting his gimmick to surge him to the top and then giving him a chance to run with it, is doing things properly. If he can sustain it, no repackaging necessary. If not, then they can reinvent him if they see fit. But that's still not to say that he couldn't get there in the first place with the current gimmick. This topic has nothing to do with sustainability, it merely asks can he get there under hs current persona, to which, I say yes.

    When Cena defeated JBL at WM21 to become WWE Champion, he was wearing vintage jerseys, chains, and was hugging his fans and calling them the "chain gang". In other words, he achieved the title without being repackaged. Only after he got there did the John Cena transformation occur. That may need to happen to Ryder as well, but that's irrelevant to the question here. Fact is, he can get there as is, with no repackaging required.


    A "repackaging" is absolutely a reset button. It is taking a character and transforming him into another character. Minor character tweaking, gradual minor evolution, that's not repackaging, as every professional wrestler undergoes such tinkering on an onging basis. But a repackaging is essentially resetting, restarting, and trying something else, which Ryder does not need to become a world champion. If he misses his broskis Trent Baretta and Yoshi Tatsu in the low card or on NXT, well then sure, repackage him. But if he wants to stay where he is, in the upper mid card, and have a potential shot at the main event and a world title, then a repackaging is not in order. It will undo all of his progress. It will be career suicide.


    He doesn't need a "remedy". Incidentally, if they did give him the MITB and let him win it in a fluke, he will have become a world champion without being repackaged, which is all I am saying he is capable of doing. I'm not suggesting he should do it. I'm not suggesting that's what I want. I'm not suggesting I will work. All I am saying is that with his current gimmick, he is able to reach the top. Whether or not it's a good choice, whether or not it works, or whether or not it flops and indeed needs to subsequently be repackaged, that's a separate discussion for another thread.


    A world champion should be a major star, but doesn't absolutely have to be. Jack Swagger wasn't a major star. The Great Khali wasn't a major star. Even Alberto del Rio wasn't a major star in WWE, yet they were all able to become world champion without being repackaged, and all I am saying is that Zack Ryder can do it too. Again, the appropriateness or success of this, that's a separate topic.


    Actually it's a trombone, but I digress. And no, he didn't look like a world title contender. If the decision were mine, Santino Marella would never be a world champion and frankly, neither would Zack Ryder. But that doesn't change the fact that he could get there with his gimmick as it is. That could get him there, which is all the thread topic asked. Keeping him there, that could involve some repackaging, but that's getting off topic.


    I've been conceding all along that there are faults, that's not the question at hand. I've stated several times that Ryder is likely lacking in in-ring ability and is deficient in mic skills. A gimmick which is popular and is over with an ever expanding niche fan base is a great way for a guy to overcome and conceal these shortcomings. By preserving his current schtick, I'm not suggesting he ever will become world champion or ever should, but it gives him the highest probability of doing so. Without this gimmick, he has absolutely no shot. With it, it could happen. Never mind if it should or never mind if it will work, that's getting off topic, something you have been doing throughout the discussion.


    The gimmick does define Ryder. I've stated repeatedly, he probably isn't that good. I have admitted it, multiple times. And I never once said they should make him world champion. I simply said that they could make him world champion. With his current gimmick and his current wave of popularity which is undeniable in the IWC, in the arenas, and at the merchandise counters, they could make him a world champion if they wanted to. It isn't something I would want to see personally, but that's not what we're discussing here. It is far more likely to see Zack Ryder become a world champion exactly as he is, with no repackaging, far more so that with Tyler Reks or Heath Slater, which is where Ryder would be returning if they were to foolishly repackage him. It's not because the Internet loves him per se, but rather, because a significant portion of the fan base, one that appears to be growing, loves him.


    There you go again, Killjoy, heading off topic again. You just said yourself that Zack Ryder could become world champion under his current gimmick. That is all I am saying, that's all the thread question was asking. Whether or not the choice would be productive is beyond the scope of what is being asked here. Whether or not you, or me, or anyone else thinks it would be an error in judgment, again irrelevant.

    In this particular case, there's a good reason why we are polar opposites. It's simply because you are wrong, and we all know what the polar opposite of that is.

    Frankly, this is starting to get a little bit long and repetitive, so I'll choose to wrap things up here as well with my concluding comments.

    In my opinion, Killjoy represented himself quite well in this debate. He voiced a lot of well thought out responses, many of which I agree with. The only problem is, a lot of the discussion was spent discussing things which were irrelevant to the question as stated at the beginning of the thread, and while I agree with several things that my opponent stated, he frequently drifted off topic and spouted off his personal preferences, without dealing with the topic.

    The question simply stated, does Zack Ryder need to be repackaged to become a world champion. And inherent in the term "repackaged" is the fact that this would involve significantly transforming his character from the manner in which it is thriving today, and resetting it into something different. The question did not ask if his current gimmick would put him on par with such legendary performers as HBK, Hogan, Taker, and several other guy mentioned. That would be an obvious "no". It did not ask if his current gimmick would be sustainable as champion, if it would be successful, or if it would be a good idea. It did not ask if Killjoy, or hatehabsforever, or Joe Blow, or anyone else on Wrestlezone forums or elsewhere in the WWE fan base would like to see Zack Ryder become world champion with his current gimmick. It merely asked, would it be possible for him to become champion with his current incarnation, or would he have to be repackaged to do it. And the obvious answer to this is no, he does not need to be repackaged to do it.

    Zack Ryder came out of absolutely nowhere. He was a guy who was never on the flagship programs and on the very occasional instance that he was, he was treated in the manner that the Funkasaurus treated his former tag team partner, Curt Hawkins, last night. He has created a gimmick, a persona, that has brought him from oblivion, into the upper mid card and into a regular appearance on the flagship shows. If he is able to continue the success of this gimmick, and further build upon it and expand it, he could translate this into a world championship. Will he do it, who knows, possibly not. Should he do it, frankly in my opinion, no he shouldn't. But what gives him the highest probability of doing so? Riding the wave of a successful gimmick which has garnered him a loyal and vocal niche fan base? Or throwing all of this in the toilet and repackaging him and potentially having it all blow up in his face? I would respectfully submit that Zack Ryder does not need a repackaging to become a world champion in WWE. Whatever slim chance he ever has of getting there comes from riding the wave of popularity he has created for himself over the last 18 months. With this intact, it is possible it could happen. Without it, he's back to being a Major Brother on Superstars.
     
    #8
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  9. Dagger Dias

    Dagger Dias Natural 20
    Staff Member Super Moderator

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    Stop! That's 3 posts from both competitors. Excellent work here, guys. :)

    Judges, you may start scoring this debate.
     
    #9
  10. FunKay the Inevitable

    FunKay the Inevitable People Like Me, We Don't Play

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    Clarity: I got a headache from reading both posts. Not because they were horrible or anything, but damn blocks of paragraphs get tiring after awhile. Killjoy mixed his up a little at least with the OP, so I award the point to him.

    Punctuality: Killjoy was quicker. It's his.

    Informative: Again, Killjoy used images and colours to his advantage. He pointed out similar gimmicks with Ryder's own and made examples of them. hateshabs was long and wordy. Not always a good choice.

    Persuasion: Allow me to identify a paragraph from Killjoy's final post:

    In essence, doesn't this point out that Zack Ryder is fully capable of winning the WWE or World Heavyweight Championships, WITHOUT being repackaged? And no, the true question was "Does Zack Ryder need to be repackaged in order to win a world title in the WWE?" Apparently not according to you. I award the points to hateshabs.

    Quick thought on this debate: I thought hateshabs actually had the better material and used it better, but the criteria we have for judging does not always reward you for that, and as such, because Killjoy was faster, had better looking posts and used outside elements (I.E. Images), the score stands at:

    Killjoy: 3, hateshabsforever: 2
     
    #10
  11. CH David

    CH David A Jock That Loves Pepsi

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    Clarity -

    Thank fuck I'm not the only one to feel this way about a quote for quote debate. Hence my bold and italics schtick. His colors were pretty too.

    Point - Killjoy

    Punctuality - Killjoy was a quick strike more often than Habs.

    Point - Killjoy

    Informative - Another debate with very little outside information. The image gets this point.

    Point - Killjoy

    Persuasion - Killjoy wasn't arguing his point that much. My definition of repackaging a star is new gimmick. It seemed to me that Killjoy was saying that Ryder can still be the same guy, but with a developed character. Giving him a new edge to his character isn't the same as repackaging. Habs stood pat and it worked for him.

    Points - hatehabsforever

    CH David scores this Killjoy 3, hatehabsforever 2.
     
    #11
  12. Nate DaMac

    Nate DaMac Fuck erbody but me

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    Clarity- Not to beat on the dead horse here, bu yeah, blocks of paragraphs=ass. I really dug Killjoy's opening post though.

    Point- Killjoy

    Punctuality- Killjoy was just on it.

    Point- Killjoy

    Informative- Killjoy brought the imagery.

    Point- Killjoy

    Persuasion- I just cannot overlook the fact that Killjoy just completely through his side out the window with his closer. If you don't even think he HAS to be repackaged, why should I?

    Point- Habs

    Nate Scores it Killjoy 3, Habs 2.
     
    #12
  13. SavageTaker

    SavageTaker Everybody Has A Price!

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    Clarity of debate - I have to agree with the other judges here. Habs, I know that at times there's a lot to say but it would be nice if it at least it was a bit more divided by pictures, videos, etc. Killjoy gets the point.

    Punctuality
    - Neither man was late, I'll give it to Habs since I saw that for one of his post Killjoy responded on the next day while Habs always responded on the same days.

    Informative - Neither man brought in facts, statistics or any outside information. Killjoy will get the point since he at least did mention how other wrestlers like Hogan, Shawn Michaels, etc were unique. It always helps to bring in past wrestlers or matches and tie them in into your point.

    Persuasion - Ultimately, I thought Habs did a great job here but once I finished reading through the debate I didn't for one minute think that Ryder doesn't need to be repackaged in order to win a world title in the WWE. When you look at guys like The Rock, Undertaker, Austin and many more they too all had something in common: they were all repackaged and went on to win world titles. Austin wasn't always the badass redneck from Texas and the Undertaker wasn't always the Deadman. I think Habs had the harder side to debate and unfortunately, he wasn't able to persuade me in any way.

    Killjoy: 4 points, Habs: 1 point.
     
    #13
  14. D-Man

    D-Man Gone but never forgotten.

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    Congratulations to Killjoy who defeats hatehabsforever by a score of 13-7. He will move onto Winner's bracket #14 while hatehabsforever moves down to Loser's bracket #10.

    Nice work, guys.
     
    #14
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