Why Lou Thesz goes over Sting.

[Gelgarin]

Well I'm sure all the Gelgarin fans out there noticed that I kept mighty quiet during the epic battle between Thesz and the Sheik. This post is why.

There is a lot of wiggle room surrounding the issue, but I strongly believe that I would not be totally out of place to assert that Sting is the most popular guy on the entire forum. (Guy as is wrestler, not guy as in Luther). He certainly has a great many fans, and almost uniquely of the main event wrestlers, the man has almost no detractors. Hell, even old school Gelgarin was pretty fond of The Stinger, although only once he donned the cool face paint.

That being said, it seems I've ended up against some insurmountable odds. At this stage of the tournament, any active wrestler is going to receive a truckload of votes from people who don't know who their opponent is, and there are a serious handful of people on the forum who are likely to vote for Sting no matter what, and who I have no chance of convincing.

My only hope is to sway enough of the wavering voters to create some early momentum, and push Thesz through by a narrow, but fair, margin.

You see, the fact of the matter is that there is absolutely not reason, aside from being a blind Sting mark, why you should vote for Sting in this contest. I spent the last week coming up with possible criteria that people could vote based upon, and I can safely say that Thesz comes out ahead in every single one. Critical essays are supposed to outline their topics for discussion during the opening, but I think that ship's pretty much sailed, so I shall do so now.

I this essay I intend to prove that, in relation to Sting, Lou Thesz was;

A better legit wrestler.
A better kayfabe wrestler.
A better technical wrestler.
A faster wrestler.
A stronger wrestler.
A smarter wrestler.
A better conditioned wrestler.
A more important wrestler.
A more popular wrestler.

In the interests of fairness, I must also concede the point that, in relation to Lou Thesz, The Icon Sting was;

A better striker. (possibly, I’ll go into this one later)
A better high flyer.
A better selector of ring attire.

So, without further ado, let us begin our journey towards;

Why Lou Thesz Goes Over Sting.​

Part 1: Lou Thesz was a better legit wrestler.​

A lot of people are going to say that it doesn't matter, which is a fair stance to take, although personally I think that they're wrong. Mark Henry used the gimmick of being the worlds strongest man, and has power lifting credentials to justify it. I don't think many people would dispute that as proof of his strength, and this is in a time period where kayfabe and real life and much less blurred that in Thesz's era. When Lou Thesz went to work in Mexico, promoters often asked him what him gimmick was (American workers at the time traditionally came to the ring in business suits or overalls) and he always responded that his gimmick was wrestling.

Lou Thesz's gimmick was that he was the most talented legitimate wrester in the world, and he had the credentials to prove it. Aside from shoot fight victories over guys like Gotch and Inoki (the later in 14 seconds for those who are interested) you simply have the consider the environments that Thesz fought in. During his ten years and the number one guy in America, Thesz regularly wrestled outside of his own area of influence, going up against local heroes with biased judges who would award any fall against him, and the only way for him to come out on top he would have to physically incapacitate his opponent via a snapped arm or similar.

Furthermore, one of the downsides of a rigidly upheld kayfabe was that it opened the door to every shooter in the industry (And as the top guy, Lou had a pretty big target on his back). In those days it was very common to see guys going into business for themselves in the middle of matches trying to change the outcome by force. Thesz was a master of defending against these kinds of assaults, and never succumbed to a shoot attack.

Nobody in the industry could match Thesz is a legitimate contest. He was untouchable.

2) Lou Thesz was a better kayfabe wrestler.​

Sting's done a lot with his career.

Sting held the NWA championship for 216 days (although only 188 of those days were when the title mattered, the rest were TNA). That's a phenomenal feet, and something that only seventeen wrestlers in the world can claim to have surpassed. Unfortunately for Sting, one of those wrestlers is Lou Thesz, who held the NWA championship when it was the biggest title in the world, and held it for a combined 3,749 days. That's over seventeen times longer than Sting. In addition, during his title reign, Thesz defended the belt far more frequently.

But what does a title matter? Well, it singles that you are the best wrestler in the world, but I think I can see where people are going with this. Somebody's going to claim that Thesz may have defeated every single notable wrester from his time period, but that doesn't matter because none of them are household names any more.

Here is a list of people Lou Thesz has defeated.

Harley Race.
Terry Funk.
Dory Funk (I think. It was a Funk, and wasn't Terry)
Bruno Sammartino.
Rikidozan.
Antonio Inoki.
Every big name American between 1940 and 1960.

I've tried to keep the list brief, and limit it to people everybody is going to know. If I wanted to rattle off old school legends that he's defeated then I could, but I'm assuming that anybody well versed enough in their wrestling history to know about guys like Gagne and Zabisco doesn't need me telling them that Thesz was bigger than them.

Sting has a lot of high profile victories as well, I'm not going to deny that, but there's a major difference that has to be considered.Sting also had a lot of high profile losses. Lou Thesz didn't. Lou Thesz once went 800+ matches without sustaining a loss (fuck you Goldberg!)

So yes, Lou Thesz won more matches, he won more often, and to be frank, he usually won more decisively. He held major championships for longer and defended them more often. Lou Thesz was a stronger kayfabe wrestler.

3) Lou Thesz was a better technical wrestler​

This monstrosity is already getting pretty long, so save me some grief and don't make me argue this. Lou Thesz invented half the holds in his arsenal. He was a master of submissions and takedowns. Nobody in the industry had a better understanding of leverage and weight dynamics. Lou Thesz was a better technical wrestler than Sting.

4) Lou Thesz was a faster wrestler. ​

Let’s be clear here, I’m not talking about nailing spinning back kicks or hitting a 540 corkscrew shooting star press off the top rope. Thesz never needed that stuff to be entertaining. What I’m talking about is attack speed. Thesz’s offence is best compared to a freight train. Once he gets going he doesn’t stop, and he doesn’t slow down. When Sting executes a backdrop there's a pause of a few seconds whilst the icon gets back to his feat. When Thesz executed his famous Greco-Roman backdrop he would be on his opponents within the blink of an eye. Thesz was capable of working a match as a pace that would make his opponents virtually pass out. Buddy Rogers once famously had to be carried from the ring, after Thesz went full speed for sixty minutes. Now Buddy Rogers was lazy and shit, but it doesn’t change the fact that he was a conditioned athlete, and Thesz’s ability to physically incapacitate him without shooting in any way, speaks volumes.

To further back up my point, allow me to present out first piece of video evidence, Lou Thesz against Tom Rice.

I think this footage is one of the earliest documented usages of what I will call the Cradle Shock, but the second fall isn’t what I’m looking to demonstrate. All you really need to see is Thesz absolutely demolishing Rice in the opening minute. Notice a) how phenomenal his dropkicks are, and b) how he just attacks and attacks until his opponent has the good sense to stay down. No extended selling. No pausing the shout “woo” or play to the crowd. Lou Thesz would attack and attack until Sting couldn’t go any more.
[youtube]I12lMXnQ8EA[/youtube]

5)Lou Thesz was a stronger wrestler. ​

Strength is a bit of a misleading term on account of it being inexorably tied to leverage. Fortunately for me, Thesz was a master of both. He was able to toss the 340lb Mormon Giant Don Leo Jonathon around like a rag doll. This is the same Mormon Giant who once ripped the ring post off of the side of the ring and used it to batter Andre the Giant to a pulp. DLJ was huge, and Thesz was able to lift him clean off his feet and dump him on the back of his head for the three.

Sting has never been famed for his strength, relying on quickness and athleticism whenever his was faced with an opponent bigger and stronger than him. The problem for Sting comes from the fact that, in general, when he faced an opponent with a size or power advantage, that opponent paid for it in speed and technique. As we’ve already seen, Thesz gives nothing up in speed, and many, many times Sting’s superior in technique. As a result, the Icon is left with very few advantages. Some of which I will take a moment to talk about now.

6)Sting was a batter striker. Or was he? ​

Sting throws a lot of punches. Lou Thesz didn’t. Lou Thesz wrestled under rules that would have disqualified him had he used his fists like the Stinger. In fairness I should point out that Lou Thesz, when working as a heel, was a master of the lighting fast open hand slap, but even so, it seems logical to draw the conclusion that Sting was a batter close quarters fighter than Thesz.

Unfortunately for Sting, I happen to know a little something about Lou Thesz that not many people know. It’s fairly well documented that Lou Thesz was in the US army. He was enlisted to fight against the Germans I believe, although my history sucks. Anyway, during his time in uniform, Lou Thesz was picked out of the ranks, and tasked with teaching close quarters combat for the US army. If that doesn’t make you qualified, I don’t know what does.

Lou Thesz may give something up to Sting when it comes to throwing a right hook, but his CQC ability more than makes up for it.

7) Sting will have a crowd advantage. Who Cares? ​

Sting is really, really cool.

This fight is in WCW, Sting’s backyard.

Sting has been a face for the majority of his career.

The fans are going to cheer for Sting.

Lou Thesz doesn’t care.

Thesz toured extensively with the NWA championship. He spent most of his career going into hostile territories and facing local heroes. He’s been booed plenty of times, and each time it happened his solution has been the same. Give his opponent a ringing open handed slap out of the corner, then repeatedly backdrop them until they give in. The crowd is going to have no effect on Lou Thesz.

What is going to have an effect is the fact that Sting has a compulsion to showboat. Sting will waste time taunting to the crowd, and as we’ve already established, you can’t ever afford to offer Lou Thesz an opening. In his first match against Antonio Inoki, the younger man put his weight on the wrong leg for a moment, and ten seconds later Lou Thesz had back dropped him and picked up the victory. The cheering crowd isn’t going to phase Thesz, but it might hand him an opening to win the match.

On the topic of Thesz winning the match, let us continue out countdown (or up, as the case may be) of the advantages Lou Thesz has going into this match.

8) Lou Thesz was a smarter wrestler.​

This is possibly the only area of my essay where my intention is more to bash Sting than to promote Thesz. All through his career, Sting made mistakes constantly. He frequently “went to the well” with the Stinger Splash one too many times, and ended up flat on his back because of it. Kurt Angle aside nobody in wrestling had a lower success rate with his finisher than Sting had with the Scorpion Death Lock. Sting had a terrible sense of self preservation, allowing people to constantly jump him from behind, and he had horrendous ring awareness, which is possibly why he didn’t notice that Luger was cheating to win all of those tag matches.

Sting was not, in any respect, a smart wrestler. Conversely, Lou Thesz is about as smart as they come. Nobody ever got into the head of Lou Thesz, no amount of mind games or makeup is going to faze him. People tried all kinds of sneaky things to take advantage of Thesz, yet he still almost never lost a match. Lou Thesz was a machine inside the squared circle, and certainly has a mental advantage over Sting.

9) Lou Thesz was better conditioned wrestler.​

Again, I’d hope that there isn’t too much need to go into depth with this one. Aside from the fact that Thesz wrestled more often than Sting, his matched also went on much, much longer. Every NWA title match was contested under two out of three falls rules, meaning that right from the offset Thesz’s matches were scheduled to go longer. In fact, Thesz frequently competed in matches that lasted sixty minutes. These days if two performers go more than twenty minutes it’s considered to be proof of conditioning, yet Thesz was going three times longer than that on a regular basis. Thesz had better cardio, endurance, and resilience. Lou Thesz is the kind of wrestler for who the term “iron man” was originally coined, and there is no question that he’s in a better physical condition that the Icon.

10) Lou Thesz was a more important wrestler. ​

I really want to cap this off at three thousand words, so you’ll forgive me if I try to be brief. Take Sting away from professional wrestling and what you get is professional wrestling without Sting. Once against let me make sure that I’m not misunderstood. Sting was tremendous at his job, and during his career he was very important to WCW, but he will not leave the same kind of legacy as someone like Thesz.

Thesz shaped so many aspects of pro wrestling. He united all the fractured world championships and transformed wrestling from a local to a national sport. He, more than anybody else (although I know some George Tragos fans disagree with me here) was responsible for bringing wrestling into the public eye, and becoming its first ever international superstar. Lou himself might not like me saying this, but Thesz was the business’s Hulk Hogan before the business had Hulk Hogan.

Thesz was the most important (possible sans Ed Lewis) in ring pioneer ever. I know Wikipedia lists a handful of throws he invented, but it doesn’t acknowledge exactly how much of what we call “professional wrestling” came from the boots of Lou Thesz. Minor mannerisms like refusing to give a clean break out of the corner, whipping to the ropes out of a headlock, or getting in a cheap shot when rising to your feet, these foundations of what pseudo-intellectuals call ring psychology were popularized by Thesz.

Lou Thesz is responsible for the growth of Wrestling in Japan. It wasn’t until he traveled there and put Dozan over that the sport exploded into the phenomenon that it is today.

As I said earlier, remove Sting from the industry and what you get is an industry without Sting. Well it’s the same for Lou Thesz, in that if you take Lou Thesz out of history, then what you get is an industry without Sting… or anyone else for that matter. Professional wrestling needed somebody like Thesz to transfer it from being a sport to being a work. A charismatic monster like Hogan or Sammartino couldn’t have done it. They needed the best in the world. When Thesz began profession wrestling was a collection of ragtag promotions of varying degrees of legitimacy. Thesz conquered them all, brought professional wrestling together, and paved the way for the superstars of the next generation to come.

You take that legitimate lynchpin away from the industry, and it all falls apart. There are maybe three guys in the industry’s history who you can say that about, one if Hulk Hogan, one is Thesz, and one got jobbed out to Bob Backland in the first round of this thing. None of them however can have the claim made about them with the same level of conviction as Thesz however. He was flat out essential not just to making the industry what it is today, but in there being an industry in the first place, and in terms of importunateness, Sting simply doesn’t present a challenge.

11) Lou Thesz was a more popular wrestler​

Let me say right now, in my eyes, this is the most ridicules reason I can think of to sway your voting. That being said, it’s the most obvious loophole that those looking to vote for Sting “by any means necessary” are likely to take, so I figured I’d better cover it.

First, let me qualify. Lou Thesz wrestled before the national television era. He didn’t have a weekly TV show to get him over. He was dependent almost entirely on local promotion, and on the word of mouth. And with that huge disadvantage, he still managed to become a bigger sensation than Sting. To put things in simple perspective, if you took Sting off of Nitro for six months, it had a very limited effect on ratings because Sting was simply one of many starts. If you put Lou Thesz onto a card where previously no Lou Thesz had been, you could expect an additional 20-30,000 paying customers. Thesz drew in the old school sense of the word.

Sting is popular wherever he goes, but he’s not an international legend like Thesz. When Thesz used to guest referee matches in Japan they used to give him a five minute standing ovation just for showing up, and this was years before he and Dozan had ever locked up. When Thesz and Dozan did lock up for the first time in Japan, it drew an 87.0 television rating.

At the end of the day though, it is unfair to guage a wrestlers popularity across such a generation gulf (and this is one of the many reasons why you shouldn’t vote based on popularity). The only way to judge the popularity of a wrestler is against his peers. Lou Thesz outshone every other name in the industry for generations. He was the biggest and the best. Sting… not so much.

Now I’ve talked longer than anybody could possibly desire to read, so I’ll wrap up quickly. Lou Thesz should win this match against Sting. We’re going to have to battle every step of the way to make sure he doesn’t get swamped out by the “popular vote”, but he should win. And the reason he should win, at the end of the day, is because he’s Lou Thesz. A true wrestling god.

 

[IrishCanadian25]

Gelgarin, this essay simply affirms my assertion that you are one of the best posters at Wrestlezone, or any wrestling discussion site, PERIOD. You should write a "Forward" section of a Lou Thesz biography.

In essence, you have jump started an already attractive match between Sting and Thesz into a potentially epic contest. I hope there is a Sting mark out there who can match your dedication.

That being said, I'd still like to respond to some of your points, but since your Will-sized post would melt my CPU if I try to use the quote feature...

On Point #1

I, for one, take legit wrestling into account. Foolish not to. Some of the greatest pro wrestlers of our age are men who wrestled amateur and simply parle's their abilities on the mat ino the pro arena. Name like Lesnar, Angle, Bigelow, Hart, and many more. And since there were no national TV cameras, internet sites, or multi-million dollar contracts back then, as you mentioned, that wrestling ability was critical as Thesz did indeed leave his territory to wrestle EVERYWHERE. Something Verne Gagne never did, for obvious reasons.

So "real" wrestling ability is a criterion I use to judge and vote.

On Point #2

Thesz was a beast as a champion, thanks in part to how legitimate he came across as. But you also cannot compare Thesz to Sting because of the eras.

When Thesz was wrestling, fans still bought wrestling as real, and Thesz was easilly the most realistic - and strongest drawing wrestler - on the NWA circut. Sting's era, however, was based off of storylines, which required different champions. When Thesz hit his territories, he was the most recognizable name, likely because it was harder to catch wrestling news. With Sting, when he was champ, every wrestling fan in the nation knew it. And they wanted to see intregue when he faced guys like Flair and Vader. It was about MORE than just the NWA Champion coming around.

So based on the differences in the two eras, I am not sure how much stock we can place in the # of matches or 17x longer title reigns. I mean, we'll take it into account, but it's not gospel. It's not even Deuteronomy.

On Point #4

I wonder is Sting would have worked AS fast with people had he wrestled in an era where fans respectfully sat and matched a match, taking in every hold. Sting had to deal with the diminished attention span of the professional wrestling fan; an issue that gets harder to combat as proven on these board by fans actually calling for Legacy to split up because "it's getting old."

To keep the crowd up to the pace, Sting had to take a moment to allow his opponent to recover before jumping on him. I am not disputing your claim about how sickeningly fast Thesz was, rather, simply stating it's another era-driven apples to oranges comparison.

On Point #5

Strength knows no eras. I just think you may be wrong here. You claim Thesz threw the 340lb Mormon Giant Don Leo Jonathon around like a rag doll. I deadlift 340 lbs, maximum, so yeah I am impressed. But you know what - Sting routinely slammed Big Van Vader, backdropped him, etc. He also manhandled a team known as the Awesome Kongs, who were each 500+ lbs. He'd slam them both and then pick them up and do it again.

You're going to get AT BEST a push here, and even that's generous. Sting was, and is, a Strong sum-um-a-bitch.

On Point #7

Crowd advantage? Maybe a little. But let's take into account a) there was little or no difference in ring dimensions from NWA to WCW, b) Thesz wrestled in California before, and c) WCW fans understood history, especially with guys like Zybyzko and Tenay on commentary. Tenay said on many occassions "shades of the Great Lou Thesz..." So WCW fans who are used to Sting will still know who Thesz is, and respect him. So I don't think "home court advantage" exists here. So Gelgarin is right on this account.

On Point #9

I wonder. Sting was in pretty sick shape in his own right. I'd buy Thesz as the better conditioned of the two, though, since between Army and Amateur Wrestling training, you have to be in SICK shape. He also wrestled 300+ matches per year, WITH travel.

I am going to wait for a Sting mark to make a rebuttal, but put it this way - I am a Sting fan, but my allegience is officially 50/50 in this match.

 

[klunderbunker]

There's two things I'm going to go with here, and my knowledge of this quite frankly isn't near what your's is, so correct me if I make any glaring mistakes.

I have one argument and one argument only: Thesz may be too good to win here. Wrestling, as you know, all boils down to entertainment. A wrestler's goal is to entertain the fans that have come to see him. That much is indisputable. As you said, Thesz won over 800 consecutive matches. My question to you is this: would general wrestling fans find that to be entertaining? Goldberg's streak was one thing, but it wasn't even 1/4 of that. Eventually the fans would begin to lose interest and it would reach the point where teh only match that is going to make a difference is the match that ends the streak. Now, as you have said, Sting did not win all of the times he wrestled. To me, that is more entertaining, and I would be more likely to buy a show that Sting was headlining rather than Thesz.

My other point goes hand in hand with this: Thesz could be considered boring by many. Now I would rarely think this way and I don't here, but Thesz is almost certainly going to lose the battle of charisma here. Sting was one of the most eye catching wrestlers of all time. You would look at him and immediately be intrigued by him. Thesz is simply a guy in tights (based on appearence only that is). As you've said, Thesz won't be bothered by the crowds. That's true. However, Sting thrives on the fans. They bring him back to life often times. Now, Thesz would certainly be able to counter just about every hold Sting used, but if Sting keeps this as a striking affair, his very unique striking style, charisma, and own physical attributes could be enough to give him the victory.

 

[Gelgarin]

On Point #4

I wonder is Sting would have worked AS fast with people had he wrestled in an era where fans respectfully sat and matched a match, taking in every hold. Sting had to deal with the diminished attention span of the professional wrestling fan; an issue that gets harder to combat as proven on these board by fans actually calling for Legacy to split up because "it's getting old."

To keep the crowd up to the pace, Sting had to take a moment to allow his opponent to recover before jumping on him. I am not disputing your claim about how sickeningly fast Thesz was, rather, simply stating it's another era-driven apples to oranges comparison.

This is certainly true, and a valid point. Sting had to work slower for the reasons you said, and also because alot of the time he was working with big guys who couldn't possibly go any faster. Had Sting been working during a different era he quite possibly would have worked a faster style, but the fact of the matter is that he wasn't.

Now I'm not saying Sting couldn't go at Lou Thesz's speed, he was a physically fit guy, but in a contest of speed, and sane money is going to go on the guy who breaks the sound barrier night after night after night, rather that the much slower guy who just 'might' have it in him to step it up a few gears.

On Point #5

Strength knows no eras. I just think you may be wrong here. You claim Thesz threw the 340lb Mormon Giant Don Leo Jonathon around like a rag doll. I deadlift 340 lbs, maximum, so yeah I am impressed. But you know what - Sting routinely slammed Big Van Vader, backdropped him, etc. He also manhandled a team known as the Awesome Kongs, who were each 500+ lbs. He'd slam them both and then pick them up and do it again.

You're going to get AT BEST a push here, and even that's generous. Sting was, and is, a Strong sum-um-a-bitch.

Hands in the air, I've never actually seen Sting's matches with Vader. Point taken.

That being said, there is a very big difference between lifting strength, and leverage. Sting could undoubtably slam Thesz, but I'm pretty sure Ray Mystero could slam Thesz assuming that Lou didn't break all his limbs first. Similarly Thesz could just as easily toss Sting around. The difference comes when you enter the test of strength situation, at which point leverage becomes much more important. Thesz's legitimate credentials rendered him a master of leverage, and as such, I'm still happy giving him the nod where it counts. Sting certainly isn't enough of a powerhouse to power out of an STF, and that's what matters.

I have one argument and one argument only: Thesz may be too good to win here.

Worst. Argument. Ever.

Wrestling, as you know, all boils down to entertainment. A wrestler's goal is to entertain the fans that have come to see him. That much is indisputable. As you said, Thesz won over 800 consecutive matches. My question to you is this: would general wrestling fans find that to be entertaining? Goldberg's streak was one thing, but it wasn't even 1/4 of that. Eventually the fans would begin to lose interest and it would reach the point where teh only match that is going to make a difference is the match that ends the streak. Now, as you have said, Sting did not win all of the times he wrestled. To me, that is more entertaining, and I would be more likely to buy a show that Sting was headlining rather than Thesz.

I think you're rather missing the difference in era. If Lou Thesz had won 800 televised matches in a row then he'd have been boring as fuck, but that's not how things worked. Thesz toured constantly... and I mean constantly, and was fighting in a different arena in a different city each and every night.

The NWA champion coming to a city near you was the equivalent of RAW rolling in. RAW, as you know, still draws tens of thousands of fans every time it shows up, despite the existence of perfectly serviceable indy feds all year round. Thesz was usually working a few dozen programs at all times, and although he won almost every match, he was never in one area long enough for the act to become stale.

Personally I find Hulk Hogan to me the most boring performer I've ever had the misfortune to set eyes on, and would rahter watch a Kip James - Buddy Rogers ironman match that him... but I'd be talking out of my ass if I attempted to make the case that he wasn't entertaining.

Thesz drew more than anybody. Like I said, a card with Thesz on it was going to draw several hundred percent more than one without. Therefore Thesz was entertaining. He may not be to your personal preference. That's fine. But you should vote for him anyway, because he was simply a better professional wrestler than Sting.

Thesz is simply a guy in tights (based on appearence only that is).

Trunks. Tights are for women.

My other point goes hand in hand with this: Thesz could be considered boring by many. Now I would rarely think this way and I don't here, but Thesz is almost certainly going to lose the battle of charisma here. Sting was one of the most eye catching wrestlers of all time. You would look at him and immediately be intrigued by him. As you've said, Thesz won't be bothered by the crowds. That's true. However, Sting thrives on the fans. They bring him back to life often times. Now, Thesz would certainly be able to counter just about every hold Sting used, but if Sting keeps this as a striking affair, his very unique striking style, charisma, and own physical attributes could be enough to give him the victory.

You know Irish is right, there is no way in hell the WCW crowd is going to disrespect one of the greatest legends in the history of pro wrestling. Don't get me wrong, they'll probably cheer for Sting, but it's not going to be an epic to the death battle.

As for charisma. Charisma doesn't win matches. Skill wins matches. Strength wins matches. In the case of some guys, magic powers win matches... but charisma doesn't. All charisma does is influence the crowd, and as I've already said, the crowd is a non factor. They'll cheer Sting, but they sure as fuck aren't going to disrespect a legend like Thesz.

Last but not least, striking. I make the point that Thesz taught close quarters combat to US soldiers during the war, and it'd be fin just for shouting at you for clearly hating America, but that might cause a scene. I'm a pretty straight shooting guy, and I'll accept that you do have a point.

What you do not have is a reason to vote for Sting. At best you have an excuse to vote for the guy you like best instead of the one who deserves to win. Thesz is a better grappler, wrestler, technician, submission artist and has batter speed and stamina. To pluck "one" area out of Sting's game as say "year... well he could do that" is laughable. Sting didn't win matches by punching people, and even is he did, Thesz is one of the greatest take down artists to have ever lived. I've lost count of the number of ways I've seen Thesz take somebody off of their feet, and if he can do it to somebody like Sammartino (a guy who was utterly dependent of brawling, and a much better brawler than Sting) then he can do it to the icon.

Vote Thesz. It's the right thing to do.

 

[jmt225]

Part 1: Lou Thesz was a better legit wrestler.​

A lot of people are going to say that it doesn't matter, which is a fair stance to take, although personally I think that they're wrong.

To me, it really doesn't matter.

Mark Henry used the gimmick of being the worlds strongest man, and has power lifting credentials to justify it.

Yeah... and Mark Henry's win/loss record in the business isn't very good. And I'm sure there are plenty of workers in the biz who weren't legit at all who you would vote for over Henry in this very tournament.

Lou Thesz's gimmick was that he was the most talented legitimate wrester in the world, and he had the credentials to prove it. Aside from shoot fight victories over guys like Gotch and Inoki (the later in 14 seconds for those who are interested) you simply have the consider the environments that Thesz fought in. During his ten years and the number one guy in America, Thesz regularly wrestled outside of his own area of influence, going up against local heroes with biased judges who would award any fall against him, and the only way for him to come out on top he would have to physically incapacitate his opponent via a snapped arm or similar.

Impressive, but has nothing to do with a pro wrestling match in kayfabe terms. And nor does it measure the success of Thesz in the business.

Nobody in the industry could match Thesz is a legitimate contest. He was untouchable.

I bet if Kurt Angle was around back in those times he could have. And guess what? Sting has plenty of victories over Angle.

2) Lou Thesz was a better kayfabe wrestler.​

Sting held the NWA championship for 216 days (although only 188 of those days were when the title mattered, the rest were TNA). That's a phenomenal feet, and something that only seventeen wrestlers in the world can claim to have surpassed. Unfortunately for Sting, one of those wrestlers is Lou Thesz, who held the NWA championship when it was the biggest title in the world, and held it for a combined 3,749 days. That's over seventeen times longer than Sting. In addition, during his title reign, Thesz defended the belt far more frequently.

Yeah, but Thesz held the title when there was much less competition, so that cancels it out, in my opinion.

But what does a title matter? Well, it singles that you are the best wrestler in the world, but I think I can see where people are going with this. Somebody's going to claim that Thesz may have defeated every single notable wrester from his time period, but that doesn't matter because none of them are household names any more.

Yeah, Thesz was "The Best in the World" when there weren't that many wrestlers in the business, and definitely weren't many draws, either. It's the exact opposite for Sting.

Here is a list of people Lou Thesz has defeated.

Harley Race.

Sting defeated Vader with Harely Race in his corner. That's more impressive, if you ask me.

Terry Funk.

Flair beat Funk plenty of times. Sting beat Flair plenty of times. And I'm sure Sting would've kicked Funk's ass in some tremendous matches were they ever to meet. Matches, that I'm positive would've been better then the matches Thesz had against Funk.

Dory Funk (I think. It was a Funk, and wasn't Terry)

Another guy Sting would defeat.

Bruno Sammartino.

And another one.

Rikidozan.

And another one.

Antonio Inoki.

And another one.

Every big name American between 1940 and 1960.

All guys I'm sure Sting would defeat. Whereas I doubt Thesz would've ever gotten a victory over someone like Hulk Hogan.

Sting has a lot of high profile victories as well, I'm not going to deny that, but there's a major difference that has to be considered.Sting also had a lot of high profile losses. Lou Thesz didn't. Lou Thesz once went 800+ matches without sustaining a loss (fuck you Goldberg!)

Very impressive, but the time differential makes it irrelevant.

So yes, Lou Thesz won more matches, he won more often, and to be frank, he usually won more decisively. He held major championships for longer and defended them more often. Lou Thesz was a stronger kayfabe wrestler.

And like I said, he won them at a time when there was limited competition in the states. Hardly anyone could draw back then, but Thesz could so they let him win. I'm sure you won't deny that if Thesz debuted in the mid-eighties that he most likely wouldn’t have accomplished shit. And hopefully you won't deny that if Sting came around back in the sixties, he still would've been very successful with his charisma, power, and the fact that he was a very good, respectable person behind the scenes.

This monstrosity is already getting pretty long, so save me some grief and don't make me argue this. Lou Thesz invented half the holds in his arsenal. He was a master of submissions and takedowns. Nobody in the industry had a better understanding of leverage and weight dynamics. Lou Thesz was a better technical wrestler than Sting.

Sting's power and the fact that he was no slouch in the technical aspect once again cancels this out. I mean, Sting's been in the ring with Kurt Angle and Bret Hart, and has victories over both of them. So he would know how to handle Thesz's offense.

4) Lou Thesz was a faster wrestler. ​

Let’s be clear here, I’m not talking about nailing spinning back kicks or hitting a 540 corkscrew shooting star press off the top rope. Thesz never needed that stuff to be entertaining. What I’m talking about is attack speed. Thesz’s offence is best compared to a freight train. Once he gets going he doesn’t stop, and he doesn’t slow down. When Sting executes a backdrop there's a pause of a few seconds whilst the icon gets back to his feat. When Thesz executed his famous Greco-Roman backdrop he would be on his opponents within the blink of an eye. Thesz was capable of working a match as a pace that would make his opponents virtually pass out. Buddy Rogers once famously had to be carried from the ring, after Thesz went full speed for sixty minutes. Now Buddy Rogers was lazy and shit, but it doesn’t change the fact that he was a conditioned athlete, and Thesz’s ability to physically incapacitate him without shooting in any way, speaks volumes.

To further back up my point, allow me to present out first piece of video evidence, Lou Thesz against Tom Rice.

I think this footage is one of the earliest documented usages of what I will call the Cradle Shock, but the second fall isn’t what I’m looking to demonstrate. All you really need to see is Thesz absolutely demolishing Rice in the opening minute. Notice a) how phenomenal his dropkicks are, and b) how he just attacks and attacks until his opponent has the good sense to stay down. No extended selling. No pausing the shout “woo” or play to the crowd. Lou Thesz would attack and attack until Sting couldn’t go any more.

With this argument coming up, I'm liking more and more of the fact that both Sting and Kurt Angle are both in TNA. I use to hate that, but now it's good because Sting defeating Angle multiple times, who is better then Thesz in every aspect you could ever bring up, makes it very easy to disprove your arguments.

The point here is that there's no doubt that Sting would be able to handle Thesz aggressiveness. He's been in the ring with way more aggressive (and I'm using this word since this is basically your definition of being "fast") wrestlers then Thesz and kicked all their asses.

5)Lou Thesz was a stronger wrestler. ​

Strength is a bit of a misleading term on account of it being inexorably tied to leverage. Fortunately for me, Thesz was a master of both. He was able to toss the 340lb Mormon Giant Don Leo Jonathon around like a rag doll. This is the same Mormon Giant who once ripped the ring post off of the side of the ring and used it to batter Andre the Giant to a pulp. DLJ was huge, and Thesz was able to lift him clean off his feet and dump him on the back of his head for the three.

Sting has never been famed for his strength, relying on quickness and athleticism whenever his was faced with an opponent bigger and stronger than him. The problem for Sting comes from the fact that, in general, when he faced an opponent with a size or power advantage, that opponent paid for it in speed and technique. As we’ve already seen, Thesz gives nothing up in speed, and many, many times Sting’s superior in technique. As a result, the Icon is left with very few advantages. Some of which I will take a moment to talk about now.

There's no proof that Thesz was stronger then Sting. In the early nineties, Sting was one of the strongest men in the business. I mean, he could vertically suplex Vader with ease, like it was nothing. And he could do other impressive shit to that behemoth that I'm sure Thesz would have had a lot of troubling doing. Same goes for the Giant in the mid-nineties.

6)Sting was a batter striker. Or was he? ​

Sting throws a lot of punches. Lou Thesz didn’t. Lou Thesz wrestled under rules that would have disqualified him had he used his fists like the Stinger. In fairness I should point out that Lou Thesz, when working as a heel, was a master of the lighting fast open hand slap, but even so, it seems logical to draw the conclusion that Sting was a batter close quarters fighter than Thesz.

Unfortunately for Sting, I happen to know a little something about Lou Thesz that not many people know. It’s fairly well documented that Lou Thesz was in the US army. He was enlisted to fight against the Germans I believe, although my history sucks. Anyway, during his time in uniform, Lou Thesz was picked out of the ranks, and tasked with teaching close quarters combat for the US army. If that doesn’t make you qualified, I don’t know what does.

Lou Thesz may give something up to Sting when it comes to throwing a right hook, but his CQC ability more than makes up for it.

This isn't MMA, my man. Striking has absolutely nothing to do with pro wrestling. Neither of these guys ever beat people in the ring with just a punch or kick, so striking would not be a factor in this match.

8) Lou Thesz was a smarter wrestler.​

This is possibly the only area of my essay where my intention is more to bash Sting than to promote Thesz. All through his career, Sting made mistakes constantly. He frequently “went to the well” with the Stinger Splash one too many times, and ended up flat on his back because of it. Kurt Angle aside nobody in wrestling had a lower success rate with his finisher than Sting had with the Scorpion Death Lock. Sting had a terrible sense of self preservation, allowing people to constantly jump him from behind, and he had horrendous ring awareness, which is possibly why he didn’t notice that Luger was cheating to win all of those tag matches.

Sting was not, in any respect, a smart wrestler. Conversely, Lou Thesz is about as smart as they come. Nobody ever got into the head of Lou Thesz, no amount of mind games or makeup is going to faze him. People tried all kinds of sneaky things to take advantage of Thesz, yet he still almost never lost a match. Lou Thesz was a machine inside the squared circle, and certainly has a mental advantage over Sting.

I'll give you that Thesz was smarter. Sting takes a lot of risk that puts him in bad situations, where it's the opposite with Thesz. But being smarter doesn't mean Thesz would be able to defeat Sting.

9) Lou Thesz was better conditioned wrestler.​

Again, I’d hope that there isn’t too much need to go into depth with this one. Aside from the fact that Thesz wrestled more often than Sting, his matched also went on much, much longer. Every NWA title match was contested under two out of three falls rules, meaning that right from the offset Thesz’s matches were scheduled to go longer. In fact, Thesz frequently competed in matches that lasted sixty minutes. These days if two performers go more than twenty minutes it’s considered to be proof of conditioning, yet Thesz was going three times longer than that on a regular basis. Thesz had better cardio, endurance, and resilience. Lou Thesz is the kind of wrestler for who the term “iron man” was originally coined, and there is no question that he’s in a better physical condition that the Icon.

This is probably fact; Thesz was definitely a high conditioned athlete. But Sting was no slouch himself.

At the end of the day, however, I don't see this match lasting over 20 minutes anyway, so it really doesn't matter.

10) Lou Thesz was a more important wrestler. ​

I really want to cap this off at three thousand words, so you’ll forgive me if I try to be brief. Take Sting away from professional wrestling and what you get is professional wrestling without Sting. Once against let me make sure that I’m not misunderstood. Sting was tremendous at his job, and during his career he was very important to WCW, but he will not leave the same kind of legacy as someone like Thesz.

Thesz shaped so many aspects of pro wrestling. He united all the fractured world championships and transformed wrestling from a local to a national sport. He, more than anybody else (although I know some George Tragos fans disagree with me here) was responsible for bringing wrestling into the public eye, and becoming its first ever international superstar. Lou himself might not like me saying this, but Thesz was the business’s Hulk Hogan before the business had Hulk Hogan.

Thesz was the most important (possible sans Ed Lewis) in ring pioneer ever. I know Wikipedia lists a handful of throws he invented, but it doesn’t acknowledge exactly how much of what we call “professional wrestling” came from the boots of Lou Thesz. Minor mannerisms like refusing to give a clean break out of the corner, whipping to the ropes out of a headlock, or getting in a cheap shot when rising to your feet, these foundations of what pseudo-intellectuals call ring psychology were popularized by Thesz.

Lou Thesz is responsible for the growth of Wrestling in Japan. It wasn’t until he traveled there and put Dozan over that the sport exploded into the phenomenon that it is today.

As I said earlier, remove Sting from the industry and what you get is an industry without Sting. Well it’s the same for Lou Thesz, in that if you take Lou Thesz out of history, then what you get is an industry without Sting… or anyone else for that matter. Professional wrestling needed somebody like Thesz to transfer it from being a sport to being a work. A charismatic monster like Hogan or Sammartino couldn’t have done it. They needed the best in the world. When Thesz began profession wrestling was a collection of ragtag promotions of varying degrees of legitimacy. Thesz conquered them all, brought professional wrestling together, and paved the way for the superstars of the next generation to come.

You take that legitimate lynchpin away from the industry, and it all falls apart. There are maybe three guys in the industry’s history who you can say that about, one if Hulk Hogan, one is Thesz, and one got jobbed out to Bob Backland in the first round of this thing. None of them however can have the claim made about them with the same level of conviction as Thesz however. He was flat out essential not just to making the industry what it is today, but in there being an industry in the first place, and in terms of importunateness, Sting simply doesn’t present a challenge.

Sting helped save WCW. Sting deserves a lot of credit for WCW staying around for as long as it did, and imagine if WCW does go under in, like, say 1995. Where's WWE today? Is there a WWE? Sting has been very important to this business staying alive.

And I know you're going to hate this man, but above it sounds like you're describing Bruno Sammartino. Dude, seriously, you're overrating what Thesz has meant to the business. He was a hard nose wrestler that drew until the entertainment aspect came into play with the Buddy Rogers’s of the World and what not. That's really it. The business is still around today if Thesz never existed. I'm not so sure I could say the same if Sting didn't.

11) Lou Thesz was a more popular wrestler​

If this is true, then why is Sting going to advance in a wrestling tournament, where being popular is what mostly gains you a vote?

First, let me qualify. Lou Thesz wrestled before the national television era. He didn’t have a weekly TV show to get him over. He was dependent almost entirely on local promotion, and on the word of mouth. And with that huge disadvantage, he still managed to become a bigger sensation than Sting. To put things in simple perspective, if you took Sting off of Nitro for six months, it had a very limited effect on ratings because Sting was simply one of many starts. If you put Lou Thesz onto a card where previously no Lou Thesz had been, you could expect an additional 20-30,000 paying customers. Thesz drew in the old school sense of the word.

Sting is popular wherever he goes, but he’s not an international legend like Thesz. When Thesz used to guest referee matches in Japan they used to give him a five minute standing ovation just for showing up, and this was years before he and Dozan had ever locked up. When Thesz and Dozan did lock up for the first time in Japan, it drew an 87.0 television rating.

That's all nice and well, but Sting was the top babyface in a top company when the business was making more money then it ever had in history. So, to me, that makes him more popular.

At the end of the day though, it is unfair to guage a wrestlers popularity across such a generation gulf (and this is one of the many reasons why you shouldn’t vote based on popularity). The only way to judge the popularity of a wrestler is against his peers. Lou Thesz outshone every other name in the industry for generations. He was the biggest and the best. Sting… not so much.

Yeah, and like I mentioned a thousand times by now, Thesz's generation had hardly any draws until Buddy Rogers and Sammartino came along, and both of those guys drew more then Thesz.

Now I’ve talked longer than anybody could possibly desire to read, so I’ll wrap up quickly. Lou Thesz should win this match against Sting. We’re going to have to battle every step of the way to make sure he doesn’t get swamped out by the “popular vote”, but he should win. And the reason he should win, at the end of the day, is because he’s Lou Thesz. A true wrestling god.

I respect Thesz, but just because The Hooker is a great book and all that, I'm not going to be manipulated into thinking he was more important to this business then he actually was, or that he was as good as that book makes him out to be.

I witnessed Sting first hand. He was the main reason I became as big of a fan as I have of pro wrestling. I've seen all his greatest moments and everything he had to offer to this great industry, and it's been a tremendous ride. There's no way I would ever vote for someone like Thesz over him. Thesz wrote one hell of a book as I said, but that and some boring old footage is not enough to convince he deserves to get a vote over a caliber of wrestler as Sting.

 

[48.7 is Approximately 49 Times Better Than You]

Damn! I need to spread rep before I rep either Gelgarin or JMT again. The posts above are enough evidence, at least in my mind, that these two truly deserved to win the Posters Tag-Team Tourney. I knew very little of Thesz before this post by Gelgarin. I came into the tournament intending on backing Sting up until the point where he collides with Lesnar. After reading and re-reading this thread, I was convinced that Lou Thesz should really go over just about anyone, save for Brock Lesnar of course. I give you a ton of credit for that Gelgarin.

Then again, JMT brings up excellent points. His post is logical and counters many of Gelgarin's arguments. I'm on the fence right now. Someone impress me and secure my vote.