Why did HBK go over Jericho at WM19?

[shooter_mcgavin]

I thought the finish to the Jericho/HBK match at the time was just fine. HBK went over sure but it was a roll up finish so Jericho didn't look any weaker than before.

So the problem wasn't the match itself it but what happened after WM19.

After the post match segment where Jericho and Michaels had a hug, Jericho low blowed HBK. With that you kind of knew this feud isn't over. And it should not have, Jericho was not hurt by the match but it didn't elevate him any further. Continuing the feud would have done that. Imagine their feud in 2008, and imagine that happening 5 years later.

Instead WWE decided to pull the plug on the feud and just have Jericho/HBK happen on RAW a few MONTHS later. With little build up or hype ... it was as if creative just didn't commit to their feud and wanted it to get out of the way. Jericho won of course but it was a match on free TV, with little build, and a finish that didn't make Jericho look strong. So in the end Jericho got nothing out of the feud.

I guess the original plan was to have a long term feud between Jericho and HBK (like in 2008) but obviously that was pulled.

And here's my theory why and I run the risk of sounding like a conspiracy theorist here. But Triple H led a stable on early 2003 but Orton and Batista got injured shortly after. So I'm sure Triple H wanting to get his Evolution Stable over to make up for time lost as well as his buddies/young projects Orton and Batista elevated convinced creative to have Shawn Michaels work with members of the Evolution members instead of Jericho.

This is why most of the calendar year Shawn Michaels worked with Ric Flair, Randy Orton, and Batista or variations of that (Tag Matches, Survivor Series Matches, and Elimination Chambers).

So suffice to say I think Triple H probably used his "politics" to push Jericho aside in favor of Evolution. Now it's no secret that Jericho and Triple H back then did not see eye to eye and Triple H even thought lowly of Jericho in certain respects. And I still do not think it was a coincidence the the only time Jericho won the World Title again on a brand (RAW) was when him and Triple H were on separate shows for the first time.

 

[Eyebrows]

I guess the original plan was to have a long term feud between Jericho and HBK (like in 2008) but obviously that was pulled.

Though it might have been shorter than their 2008 feud, the rivalry between Jericho and Michaels started prior to the 2003 Rumble and the Wrestlemania match was almost three months later. That's a fair amount of time. Wrestlemania is the perfect place for feuds to end so I don't think they ever planned to stretch it out much further.

There's no doubt that the feud with Michaels put Jericho back into the spotlight. It's not like he was flying at the top of the card during 2002. Aside from Survivor Series which is padded out with six guys anyway, Jericho was either involved in average tag-title matches, jobbing to Cena, or battling in the undercard with Flair. He lost to Flair then got back that win as well. Does that mean Flair lobbied to have himself go over Jericho too?

The question of why Triple H went over Booker is interesting because there's a legit claim that Booker winning would have changed the landscape of the main event scene for the rest of that year, or at least the summer. The outcome of that match actually would have shaped the post-Mania fallout.

But the Jericho/Michaels one is a non-issue. Neither of them needed to win. Neither of them needed to go over. It was one of those instances where the quality of the feud and the quality of the match itself was more important than the result. Even if I bought Michaels throwing his power around and getting his way it makes no sense for him to have done it on this occasion because there was nothing really at stake in the match. So why not have the face win to the make the fans happy, instead of having them pissed that Jericho beat Shawn and then even MORE pissed that HHH beat Booker straight after?

Maybe they even anticipated the reaction to Booker losing so sandwiched it in-between two feel-good results in Jericho/Michaels and Hogan/McMahon. Maybe they didn't want THREE heel wins in a row at Mania after Team Angle won the tag titles. There are a whole bunch of reasons to consider that are more logical than HBK burying Jericho. If Jericho had felt that he had been buried I'm pretty sure he would have voiced something about it by now.

Is there a source other than Helms? He mentions Kennedy but I've never heard anything from Kennedy himself on the subject. By all accounts, Shawn was a different man when he came back than he was in the '90s. Whether that's true or not, we on this forum can't say for sure. But neither is it wise to simply accept the testimony of a minor player like Helms, who together with the Hardys, constantly come over as having a massive victim complex.

 

[shooter_mcgavin]

Though it might have been shorter than their 2008 feud, the rivalry between Jericho and Michaels started prior to the 2003 Rumble and the Wrestlemania match was almost three months later. That's a fair amount of time. Wrestlemania is the perfect place for feuds to end so I don't think they ever planned to stretch it out much further.

There's no doubt that the feud with Michaels put Jericho back into the spotlight. It's not like he was flying at the top of the card during 2002. Aside from Survivor Series which is padded out with six guys anyway, Jericho was either involved in average tag-title matches, jobbing to Cena, or battling in the undercard with Flair. He lost to Flair then got back that win as well. Does that mean Flair lobbied to have himself go over Jericho too?

The question of why Triple H went over Booker is interesting because there's a legit claim that Booker winning would have changed the landscape of the main event scene for the rest of that year, or at least the summer. The outcome of that match actually would have shaped the post-Mania fallout.

Ok maybe not as long but I kind of felt they needed one more match on PPV to close their feud. You pointed out 2002 and Jericho was in a rut after dropping the Undisputed Title and his feud with Shawn Michaels allowed him to be relevant again. Sure the feud had a nice build to WM but after that Jericho was pushed aside again and he needed that big win to put him over the hump instead after his feud with HBK, Jericho was lost in the RAW brand again.

I always wondered why they never followed up their match at WM19. Why didn't Jericho and Shawn Michaels at Judgment Day 2003 since HBK didn't have a match on that PPV, Jericho was put in a thankless IC Title Battle Royale, and the PPV card was pretty bad. The next PPV, Jericho faced Goldberg and imagine if Goldberg beat a Jericho, who beat HBK on the previous PPV, instead of a Jericho who has not had a big PPV win for almost a year.

Their rematch on Free TV was something just as less to be desired because it involved Orton interfering in the match, Jericho won the match but the focus was not about him winning but about Randy Orton costing HBK the match.

With regards to this I don't think there was any backstage influence with Shawn Michaels. Even Jericho said he had no with Michaels going over at WM19 and felt it was an honor (paraphrasing of course). I think the post WM19 events kind of made me feel the influence in cutting the Jericho/Michaels feud early was more on Triple H.

 

[Irishock]

I think the post WM19 events kind of made me feel the influence in cutting the Jericho/Michaels feud early was more on Triple H.

Maybe he thought Jericho/Michaels would've became the top feud on the show. And he had to be in the spotlight 24/7 because he thought he was the next Austin. Safe to say that didn't turn out well. Anyway I'm 100% sure the rumors of HHH holding Jericho back are true. It's a pity to see Jericho praise him in the media, while HHH is burying him behind his back. I hope Jericho fucking blasts that motherfucker in his 3rd book.

 

[TitusOneil]

Probably because Michaels returned and he was being built up at that point. jericho had peaked prior and then was on his way down. It wouldn't be too wise to put over someone whose status in the company was somewhere way down, while another guy who just came back from injury and was rising in popularity would get a big loss.

 

[Irishock]

Probably because Michaels returned and he was being built up at that point. jericho had peaked prior and then was on his way down. It wouldn't be too wise to put over someone whose status in the company was somewhere way down, while another guy who just came back from injury and was rising in popularity would get a big loss.

Jesus Christ, Shawn Michaels is fucking Shawn Michaels-- the greatest to ever step into the squared circle. He didn't have ANYTHING to lose that night. Jericho was on his way down and that's why he needed the goddamn victory.

 

[The Brain]

You started off with a simple question but it's becoming increasingly obvious that you really just have a strong dislike toward Shawn Michaels. Michaels won because he was the good guy and that's what the fans wanted. That may seem a little too simple but why can't it just be as simple as that? Do you really think Jericho was hurt by losing this match? Would his career really have turned out much better had he won? I think Jericho benefited plenty from this match. In fact allow me to quote your very first line from this thread.

One of the all time great matches

Isn't that enough? Being part of one of the greatest matches of all time is a great achievement win or lose. Michaels got pretty high praise for his WM10 match. He lost. Austin got pretty high praise for his WM13 match. He lost. Losing an excellent match is better than winning a mediocre match so I'd say Jericho came out a winner at WM19. After all, he calls it the best match of his career so I don't think he's too bothered by the result.

 

[Irishock]

You're looking at this from the revisionist history point of view. At that time, almost every single person felt Jericho needed to go over. He had been lost in the shuffle with all the guys that came over from WCW, while Shawn was immediately back in the fold by winning the title in his 2nd match. So what if he was a fuckin' good guy? He already got his comeback moment and that was enough. On the grandest stage, Michaels had no business beating Jericho, whether he was going to be part-time or full-time.

 

[The Brain]

You're looking at this from the revisionist history point of view. At that time, almost every single person felt Jericho needed to go over. He had been lost in the shuffle with all the guys that came over from WCW, while Shawn was immediately back in the fold by winning the title in his 2nd match. So what if he was a fuckin' good guy? He already got his comeback moment and that was enough. On the grandest stage, Michaels had no business beating Jericho, whether he was going to be part-time or full-time.

How am I looking at it from the revisionist history point of view? Why did one of the all time greats not deserve to win at WrestleMania? What reason do you have besides you like Jericho and don't like Michaels?

At the time I thought Jericho was going to win. My friends and I used to do a confidence pool for PPVs and I had a decent number on Jericho so I was pulling for him. During the match I forgot about the pool and got caught up in the great action. When Michaels got the pin I popped out of my chair in excitement which is something that rarely happens. I didn't care about what I thought should happen or what was going to happen. I lost myself in the match and found myself happy that the good guy came out on top. They did a fantastic job of telling the story and that's what matters. Jericho looked just as good as Michaels despite taking the pin.

 

[Sweettre15]

On top of that Whether Jericho won of lost that night, HHH and Vince were likely still going to undermine him for the sake of pushing Evolution and Goldberg with Jericho still being relegated to lower tier feuds.