Who is REALLY better? Shawn Michaels vs. Kurt angle

[HBK-aholic]

[QUOTE="The Hardcore Legend" Christian Battlez;912915]
You are off your rocker if you think Michaels is better than Angle. Where is Shawn's gold medal? Where is his WM victory over Angle oh yeah he doesn't have one. Kurt does over Shawn. Where are Shawn's 10 World Championships? Oh yeah he only has four. I hope to god Angle and Michaels meet in the WZ tournament this year so I can put you in your place.[/QUOTE]

Angle isn't better than Michaels, I don't care how good Angle is. And bear in mind Angle is my second favourite wrestler of all time, so don't even attempt calling me biased. The amount of quality matches Angle has aren't anywhere near thje amount Shawn has had. Oh and please tell me you're not naive enough to believe the amount of title reigns shows how good a wrestler is. Do you think Flair is the best of all time?

 

[Christian Battlez]

Angle isn't better than Michaels, I don't care how good Angle is. And bear in mind Angle is my second favourite wrestler of all time, so don't even attempt calling me biased. The amount of quality matches Angle has aren't anywhere near thje amount Shawn has had. Oh and please tell me you're not naive enough to believe the amount of title reigns shows how good a wrestler is. Do you think Flair is the best of all time?

No because Angle is silly and its really not even debateable but since I'm sure you'd like to lets go ahead and do that shall we. The amount of championships you carry does have alot to do with your level of greatness. You see if I asked you to tell me why Shawn is the best ever you would comeback and read me a bunch of accomplishments. Which I could come back with the argument of wrestling is fake. All we really have to go by are accomplishments but if we listed off Angle and Michaels accomplishments we'd both get carpotunnel. The amount of championships you win during a career is huge because it shows how much the promoter trusted in you to make you the companys top guy. To carry the company on your shoulders and represent it as its champion. Now Angle has done this for WWE as well as TNA while HBK has only done it for the WWE.Angle has been the top guy 10 times. While Shawn only four. HBK isn't as trustworthy because of his history with knee and back injuries. Plus in the past he had major drug problems and was saved by christ. I applaud the man for that. But simply put Michaels isn't better than Angle. If Kurt had started his career at the time Shawn did Angle would have shattered every record and hold every accomplishment there is to hold. Yet he was too busy representing his country and winning a gold medal with a broken neck.

 

[HBK-aholic]

• Firstly, if 'wrestling' is fake when it comes to accomplishments, how many times either person has been a champion doesn't matter in the slightest.
  
  
• What isn't fake, is the quality of matches, almost everyone agrees Shawn has had many more 5* matches than Angle has. PWI MOTY also seems to agree with me. Interestringly, Angle has only won the award twice. Once in a match against HBK himself.
  
  
• If number of titles do matter, then you're also shooting yourself in the foot saying Angle is the best, when people have won more championships than he has. Wouldn't that make them better than him? This can't only work when you want it to.
  
• Wheres's 10 anyway? 4 WWE, 1 World Heavyweight, 1 WCW, 2 TNA? This isn't a debate point, more a curious one.
  
  
• The gold medal/olympic thing means Fuck all in wrestling.
  
  
• Angle was the Fourth Grand Slam Champion, bless him, that's quite an ccomplishment. It was even more so when Shawn won it the first time.

 

[Christian Battlez]

• Firstly, if 'wrestling' is fake when it comes to accomplishments, how many times either person has been a champion doesn't matter in the slightest.

• 
  
  I was merely stating to you that you were basically using the fake argument instead of identifying with accomplishments. Accomplsihments SHOULD matter.
  
  
  

  [*]What isn't fake, is the quality of matches, almost everyone agrees Shawn has had many more 5* matches than Angle has. PWI MOTY also seems to agree with me. Interestringly, Angle has only won the award twice. Once in a match against HBK himself.

  
  Lets list said matches from PWI
  
  May 17,1993 Michaels vs Janetty IC title
  March 20,1994 Michaels vs Ramon IC title Ladder Match
  April 2,1995 Michaels vs Diesel WWF Championship
  March 31,1996 Michaels vs Bret Hart WWF Championship Ironman Match
  March 14,2004 Michaels vs Benoit vs HHH World Championship Triple Threat
  April 3,2005 Michaels vs Angle WM 21
  April 2,2006 Michaels vs Vince McMahon Street Fight WM 22
  April 23,2007 Michaels vs Cena Raw London
  March 30,2008 Michaels vs Flair WM 24 Flair's last match
  
  I won't argue the first two they are legit but lets break down the rest. The match with Diesel wasn't as good as the Rumble that year which Shawn won but you can't completely attribute that to him because there were 29 other men in the match as well. The match with Hart was an Ironman match and both deserve credit but come on he was working with Bret Hart. The Triple Threat was also due to Benoit and Trips being in the match again Michaels is surrounded by talent. The match with Angle well you know the case on that one. The match with Cena again competing with superior talent. The match with McMahon makes me laugh because that match sucked people voted for it because Vince got his ass beat. All of Edge and Cena's matches that year were better especially TLC. Oh and the one with Flair that match wasnt even the best that night. I was there in person and it won bc of the moment. Edge/Taker and the Triple Threat and MITB were all better matches. [/QUOTE]
  
  
  

  [*]If number of titles do matter, then you're also shooting yourself in the foot saying Angle is the best, when people have won more championships than he has. Wouldn't that make them better than him? This can't only work when you want it to.

  
  Only three have Triple H,Ric Flair,and Jeff Jarrett. Two of those practically control the companys they wrestle in and Flair it took 30 years. Angle has been wrestling for eleven years. Do the math.
  
  

  [*]Wheres's 10 anyway? 4 WWE, 1 World Heavyweight, 1 WCW, 2 TNA? This isn't a debate point, more a curious one.

  
  4 WWE
  1 WCW
  2 TNA
  1 PPW
  1 NWA
  1 IWGP
  
  
  

  [*]The gold medal/olympic thing means Fuck all in wrestling.

  
  Yeah because he won a gold medal for wrestling I can see why that wouldnt be relevant to the conversation about who is a better wrestler.
  
  

  [*]Angle was the Fourth Grand Slam Champion, bless him, that's quite an ccomplishment. It was even more so when Shawn won it the first time.

  
  Angle is also the second TNA Triple Crown winner and held all the titles at once.

 

[HBK-aholic]

[QUOTE="The Hardcore Legend" Christian Battlez;912956]I was merely stating to you that you were basically using the fake argument instead of identifying with accomplishments. Accomplsihments SHOULD matter.[/QUOTE]

AWA World Tag Team Championship (2 times)[151] – with Marty Jannetty
Central States Wrestling
NWA Central States Tag Team Championship (1 time)[8] – with Marty Jannetty
Continental Wrestling Association
AWA Southern Tag Team Championship (2 times)[1][8] – with Marty Jannetty
Pro Wrestling Illustrated
PWI Feud of the Year (2008) vs. Chris Jericho
PWI Match of the Year (1993)[152] vs. Marty Jannetty on Monday Night Raw on May 17
PWI Match of the Year (1994)[153] vs. Razor Ramon in a ladder match at WrestleMania X on March 20
PWI Match of the Year (1995)[6] vs. Diesel at WrestleMania XI on April 2
PWI Match of the Year (1996)[6] vs. Bret Hart in an Iron Man match at WrestleMania XII on March 31
PWI Match of the Year (2004)[152] vs. Chris Benoit and Triple H at WrestleMania XX on March 14
PWI Match of the Year (2005)[152] vs. Kurt Angle at WrestleMania 21 on April 3
PWI Match of the Year (2006)[152] vs. Vince McMahon at WrestleMania 22 on April 2
PWI Match of the Year (2007)[152] vs. John Cena on Raw on April 23
PWI Match of the Year (2008)[152] vs. Ric Flair at WrestleMania XXIV on March 30
PWI Most Popular Wrestler of the Year (1995, 1996)[153]
PWI ranked him # 1 of the 500 best singles wrestlers of the year in the PWI 500 in 1996.[154]
Texas All-Star Wrestling
TASW Texas Tag Team Championship (2 times)[8] – with Paul Diamond
Texas Wrestling Alliance
TWA Heavyweight Championship (1 time)[1][8]
World Wrestling Federation / World Wrestling Entertainment
WWF Championship (3 times)[151]
WWF European Championship (1 time)[151]
WWF Intercontinental Championship (3 times)[151]
WWF/E World Tag Team Championship (4 times)[151] – with Diesel (2), Steve Austin (1), and John Cena (1)
World Heavyweight Championship (1 time)[151]
Royal Rumble (1995, 1996)[151]
First Grand Slam Championship
Slammy Award for Best Slammin' Jammin' Entrance (1996)
Slammy Award for Best Threads (1996)
Slammy Award for Squared Circle Shocker (1996) Won for collapsing; Owen Hart accepts the award for making Michaels collapse
Slammy Award for Master of Mat Mechanics (1996)
Slammy Award for US West Match of the Year (1996) vs. Razor Ramon in a ladder match at SummerSlam
Slammy Award for Leader of the New Generation (1996)
Slammy Award for Best Finisher (1997)
Slammy Award for US West Match of the Year (1997) vs. Bret Hart in an Iron Man match at WrestleMania XII
Slammy Award for Match of the Year (2008) vs. Ric Flair at WrestleMania XXIV
Fourth Triple Crown Championship


Wrestling Observer Newsletter awards
Best Babyface (1996)
Feud of the Year (2004) vs. Triple H and Chris Benoit
Feud of the Year (2008) vs. Chris Jericho
Match of the Year (1994) vs. Razor Ramon in a ladder match at WrestleMania X on March 20
Match of the Year (2008) vs. Chris Jericho in a ladder match at No Mercy on October 5
Most Charismatic (1995, 1996)
Tag Team of the Year (1989) with Marty Jannetty as The Rockers
Worst Feud of the Year (2006) with Triple H vs. Shane and Vince McMahon

Credit Wikipedia. (Although I practically wrote that page, so technically credit Becca FTW ). Anyway, here are his accomplishments, take of that what you will.

Lets list said matches from PWI

May 17,1993 Michaels vs Janetty IC title
March 20,1994 Michaels vs Ramon IC title Ladder Match
April 2,1995 Michaels vs Diesel WWF Championship
March 31,1996 Michaels vs Bret Hart WWF Championship Ironman Match
March 14,2004 Michaels vs Benoit vs HHH World Championship Triple Threat
April 3,2005 Michaels vs Angle WM 21
April 2,2006 Michaels vs Vince McMahon Street Fight WM 22
April 23,2007 Michaels vs Cena Raw London
March 30,2008 Michaels vs Flair WM 24 Flair's last match

I won't argue the first two they are legit but lets break down the rest. The match with Diesel wasn't as good as the Rumble that year which Shawn won but you can't completely attribute that to him because there were 29 other men in the match as well. The match with Hart was an Ironman match and both deserve credit but come on he was working with Bret Hart. The Triple Threat was also due to Benoit and Trips being in the match again Michaels is surrounded by talent. The match with Angle well you know the case on that one. The match with Cena again competing with superior talent. The match with McMahon makes me laugh because that match sucked people voted for it because Vince got his ass beat. All of Edge and Cena's matches that year were better especially TLC. Oh and the one with Flair that match wasnt even the best that night. I was there in person and it won bc of the moment. Edge/Taker and the Triple Threat and MITB were all better matches.

The only match I disagree with is the McMahon match. People voted for that match simply because A) He got killed. And B) McMahon actually got a good match. However, the rest are all amazing matches, ones in which people remember, and definitely were the best of that year.

Only three have Triple H,Ric Flair,and Jeff Jarrett. Two of those practically control the companys they wrestle in and Flair it took 30 years. Angle has been wrestling for eleven years. Do the math.

Lol at the argument against Triple H. It has nothing to do with him being with Stephanie - it's because he's that good. I'm using yoru own argument against you here, because personally I find Angle to be better than him. But, yano, titles mean everything.

Yeah because he won a gold medal for wrestling I can see why that wouldnt be relevant to the conversation about who is a better wrestler.

Lol, completely different styles of wrestling.

Angle is also the second TNA Triple Crown winner and held all the titles at once.

But TNA is shit.

 

[Christian Battlez]

AWA World Tag Team Championship (2 times)[151] – with Marty Jannetty
Central States Wrestling
NWA Central States Tag Team Championship (1 time)[8] – with Marty Jannetty
Continental Wrestling Association
AWA Southern Tag Team Championship (2 times)[1][8] – with Marty Jannetty
Pro Wrestling Illustrated
PWI Feud of the Year (2008) vs. Chris Jericho
PWI Match of the Year (1993)[152] vs. Marty Jannetty on Monday Night Raw on May 17
PWI Match of the Year (1994)[153] vs. Razor Ramon in a ladder match at WrestleMania X on March 20
PWI Match of the Year (1995)[6] vs. Diesel at WrestleMania XI on April 2
PWI Match of the Year (1996)[6] vs. Bret Hart in an Iron Man match at WrestleMania XII on March 31
PWI Match of the Year (2004)[152] vs. Chris Benoit and Triple H at WrestleMania XX on March 14
PWI Match of the Year (2005)[152] vs. Kurt Angle at WrestleMania 21 on April 3
PWI Match of the Year (2006)[152] vs. Vince McMahon at WrestleMania 22 on April 2
PWI Match of the Year (2007)[152] vs. John Cena on Raw on April 23
PWI Match of the Year (2008)[152] vs. Ric Flair at WrestleMania XXIV on March 30
PWI Most Popular Wrestler of the Year (1995, 1996)[153]
PWI ranked him # 1 of the 500 best singles wrestlers of the year in the PWI 500 in 1996.[154]
Texas All-Star Wrestling
TASW Texas Tag Team Championship (2 times)[8] – with Paul Diamond
Texas Wrestling Alliance
TWA Heavyweight Championship (1 time)[1][8]
World Wrestling Federation / World Wrestling Entertainment
WWF Championship (3 times)[151]
WWF European Championship (1 time)[151]
WWF Intercontinental Championship (3 times)[151]
WWF/E World Tag Team Championship (4 times)[151] – with Diesel (2), Steve Austin (1), and John Cena (1)
World Heavyweight Championship (1 time)[151]
Royal Rumble (1995, 1996)[151]
First Grand Slam Championship
Slammy Award for Best Slammin' Jammin' Entrance (1996)
Slammy Award for Best Threads (1996)
Slammy Award for Squared Circle Shocker (1996) Won for collapsing; Owen Hart accepts the award for making Michaels collapse
Slammy Award for Master of Mat Mechanics (1996)
Slammy Award for US West Match of the Year (1996) vs. Razor Ramon in a ladder match at SummerSlam
Slammy Award for Leader of the New Generation (1996)
Slammy Award for Best Finisher (1997)
Slammy Award for US West Match of the Year (1997) vs. Bret Hart in an Iron Man match at WrestleMania XII
Slammy Award for Match of the Year (2008) vs. Ric Flair at WrestleMania XXIV
Fourth Triple Crown Championship


Wrestling Observer Newsletter awards
Best Babyface (1996)
Feud of the Year (2004) vs. Triple H and Chris Benoit
Feud of the Year (2008) vs. Chris Jericho
Match of the Year (1994) vs. Razor Ramon in a ladder match at WrestleMania X on March 20
Match of the Year (2008) vs. Chris Jericho in a ladder match at No Mercy on October 5
Most Charismatic (1995, 1996)
Tag Team of the Year (1989) with Marty Jannetty as The Rockers
Worst Feud of the Year (2006) with Triple H vs. Shane and Vince McMahon

Credit Wikipedia. (Although I practically wrote that page, so technically credit Becca FTW ). Anyway, here are his accomplishments, take of that what you will.

Professional wrestling

Cauliflower Alley Club
Future Legend Award (2000)

Inoki Genome Federation
IWGP Third Belt Championship (1 time)

Power Pro Wrestling
PPW Heavyweight Championship (1 time)

Pro Wrestling Illustrated
PWI Comeback of the Year (2003)
PWI Feud of the Year (2000)vs. Triple H
PWI Feud of the Year (2003) vs. Brock Lesnar
PWI Feud of the Year (2007) vs. Samoa Joe
PWI Match of the Year (2003) vs. Brock Lesnar in a 60-minute Iron Man match on SmackDown!, September 16
PWI Match of the Year (2005) vs. Shawn Michaels at WrestleMania 21
PWI Most Hated Wrestler of the Year (2000)
PWI Most Inspirational Wrestler of the Year (2001)
PWI Most Popular Wrestler of the Year (2003)
PWI Rookie of the Year (2000)
PWI Wrestler of the Year (2003)
PWI ranked him #1 of the top 500 singles wrestlers in the PWI 500 in 2001

Total Nonstop Action Wrestling
TNA World Heavyweight Championship (2 times)
TNA World Tag Team Championship (1 time) – with Sting
TNA X Division Championship (1 time)
King of the Mountain (2007)
Second Triple Crown Champion (1 time)

World Wrestling Entertainment
WCW United States Championship (1 time)
WCW World Heavyweight Championship (1 time)
World Heavyweight Championship (1 time)
WWF/E Championship (4 times)
WWF European Championship (1 time)
WWF Hardcore Championship (1 time)
WWF Intercontinental Championship (1 time)
WWE Tag Team Championship (1 time)– with Chris Benoit
Tenth Triple Crown Champion
Fourth Grand Slam Champion
King of the Ring (2000)

Wrestling Observer Newsletter awards
Best Gimmick (2000)
Best on Interviews (2002)
Best Technical Wrestler (2002)
Feud of the Year (2003) vs. Brock Lesnar
Match of the Year with Chris Benoit vs. Edge and Rey Mysterio, No Mercy 2002
Most Improved (2000)
Most Outstanding Wrestler (2001–2003)
Readers' Favorite Wrestler (2002–2003)
Wrestler of the Year (2002)
Wrestling Observer Newsletter Hall of Fame (Class of 2004)

Amateur wrestling
Canadian Cup Championship
Winner (1990)
Collegiate / High School
Pennsylvania State Wrestling Champion (1987)
Clarion University Freshman of the Year (1988)
Espoir World Cup
Runner-up (1989)
International Federation of Associated Wrestling Styles
FILA Junior World Freestyle Champion (1988)
FILA World Freestyle Champion (1995)
National Amateur Wrestling
National Amateur Wrestling Hall of Fame (Class of 2001)
National Collegiate Athletic Association
NCAA Division I All-American (1990)
NCAA Division I Champion (1990)
NCAA Division I All-American (1991)
NCAA Division I runner-up (1991)
NCAA Division I All-American (1992)
NCAA Division I Champion (1992)
Olympic Games
Summer Olympics gold medal in freestyle wrestling (heavyweight) (1996)
USA Wrestling
USA Junior Freestyle Champion (1987)
USA Senior Freestyle Champion (1995)
USA Senior Freestyle Champion (1996)
USA Wrestling Hall of Fame (Class of 2001)
World Championships
Gold medal in freestyle wrestling (heavyweight) (1995)
Yasar Dogu Tournament
Runner-up (1989)[/QUOTE]

I could do this all night Becca.

The only match I disagree with is the McMahon match. People voted for that match simply because A) He got killed. And B) McMahon actually got a good match. However, the rest are all amazing matches, ones in which people remember, and definitely were the best of that year.

They were all great matches I just don't know if I'd call them MOTY because most of them weren't the best match that year.

Lol at the argument against Triple H. It has nothing to do with him being with Stephanie - it's because he's that good. I'm using yoru own argument against you here, because personally I find Angle to be better than him. But, yano, titles mean everything.

They sure as hell mean alot in how much trust the promoter has in you to carry his company like TNA and WWE have doen with Angle. They trust HHH because they are related.

Lol, completely different styles of wrestling.

It's more of the fact that Shawn may have wrestled through injuries throughout his career. But Angle has as well. He did so in a match where he couldn't rely on his opponent to take care of him. Because it was a real not staged wrestling match. He did this with a broken neck and that is a hell of an accomplishment.

But TNA is shit.

Don't get me started on that one little girl because this isn't a TNA vs WWE thread although if you'd like I'll take you on in that as well.

 

[HBK-aholic]

[QUOTE="The Hardcore Legend" Christian Battlez;912968]Professional wrestling

Cauliflower Alley Club
Future Legend Award (2000)

Inoki Genome Federation
IWGP Third Belt Championship (1 time)

Power Pro Wrestling
PPW Heavyweight Championship (1 time)

Pro Wrestling Illustrated
PWI Comeback of the Year (2003)
PWI Feud of the Year (2000)vs. Triple H
PWI Feud of the Year (2003) vs. Brock Lesnar
PWI Feud of the Year (2007) vs. Samoa Joe
PWI Match of the Year (2003) vs. Brock Lesnar in a 60-minute Iron Man match on SmackDown!, September 16
PWI Match of the Year (2005) vs. Shawn Michaels at WrestleMania 21
PWI Most Hated Wrestler of the Year (2000)
PWI Most Inspirational Wrestler of the Year (2001)
PWI Most Popular Wrestler of the Year (2003)
PWI Rookie of the Year (2000)
PWI Wrestler of the Year (2003)
PWI ranked him #1 of the top 500 singles wrestlers in the PWI 500 in 2001

Total Nonstop Action Wrestling
TNA World Heavyweight Championship (2 times)
TNA World Tag Team Championship (1 time) – with Sting
TNA X Division Championship (1 time)
King of the Mountain (2007)
Second Triple Crown Champion (1 time)

World Wrestling Entertainment
WCW United States Championship (1 time)
WCW World Heavyweight Championship (1 time)
World Heavyweight Championship (1 time)
WWF/E Championship (4 times)
WWF European Championship (1 time)
WWF Hardcore Championship (1 time)
WWF Intercontinental Championship (1 time)
WWE Tag Team Championship (1 time)– with Chris Benoit
Tenth Triple Crown Champion
Fourth Grand Slam Champion
King of the Ring (2000)

Wrestling Observer Newsletter awards
Best Gimmick (2000)
Best on Interviews (2002)
Best Technical Wrestler (2002)
Feud of the Year (2003) vs. Brock Lesnar
Match of the Year with Chris Benoit vs. Edge and Rey Mysterio, No Mercy 2002
Most Improved (2000)
Most Outstanding Wrestler (2001–2003)
Readers' Favorite Wrestler (2002–2003)
Wrestler of the Year (2002)
Wrestling Observer Newsletter Hall of Fame (Class of 2004)

Amateur wrestling
Canadian Cup Championship
Winner (1990)
Collegiate / High School
Pennsylvania State Wrestling Champion (1987)
Clarion University Freshman of the Year (1988)
Espoir World Cup
Runner-up (1989)
International Federation of Associated Wrestling Styles
FILA Junior World Freestyle Champion (1988)
FILA World Freestyle Champion (1995)
National Amateur Wrestling
National Amateur Wrestling Hall of Fame (Class of 2001)
National Collegiate Athletic Association
NCAA Division I All-American (1990)
NCAA Division I Champion (1990)
NCAA Division I All-American (1991)
NCAA Division I runner-up (1991)
NCAA Division I All-American (1992)
NCAA Division I Champion (1992)
Olympic Games
Summer Olympics gold medal in freestyle wrestling (heavyweight) (1996)
USA Wrestling
USA Junior Freestyle Champion (1987)
USA Senior Freestyle Champion (1995)
USA Senior Freestyle Champion (1996)
USA Wrestling Hall of Fame (Class of 2001)
World Championships
Gold medal in freestyle wrestling (heavyweight) (1995)
Yasar Dogu Tournament
Runner-up (1989)

I could do this all night Becca.[/QUOTE]

Me too, hun. We could just agree here that they both have very good accomplishments, seeings as I am a huge Angle fan as well as HBK. But the point is you can't use title winnings as your whole basis on who's better.

They were all great matches I just don't know if I'd call them MOTY because most of them weren't the best match that year.

I'd disagree on a few accounts, I can see where you're coming from with others. With McMahon, as I said before, that wasn't the MOTY. With other years I don't think anotehr match was better, more than if that other match won it wouldn't be a bad thing. But rarely do those include Angle.

They sure as hell mean alot in how much trust the promoter has in you to carry his company like TNA and WWE have doen with Angle. They trust HHH because they are related.

They trust Triple H because he can draw. McMahon wouldn't give him the title so often if he was going to make them lose lots of money. HBK has also told McMahon he doesn't want the title, and it;s been that way for a while now.

It's more of the fact that Shawn may have wrestled through injuries throughout his career. But Angle has as well. He did so in a match where he couldn't rely on his opponent to take care of him. Because it was a real not staged wrestling match. He did this with a broken neck and that is a hell of an accomplishment.

Indeed it is. Stupid, but an accomplishment . But yes, I see your point. However, I don't think that means much when it comes to professional wrestling.

Don't get me started on that one little girl because this isn't a TNA vs WWE thread although if you'd like I'll take you on in that as well.

I'm sure we will at one point, little boy.

 

[Christian Battlez]

I'd disagree on a few accounts, I can see where you're coming from with others. With McMahon, as I said before, that wasn't the MOTY. With other years I don't think anotehr match was better, more than if that other match won it wouldn't be a bad thing. But rarely do those include Angle.

Well Kurt wasn't involved with pro wrestling until 2000. Shawn had won four of his match of the years by then. In 2003 Angle had the winner and runner up match and in 2007 Shawn accomplished the same thing. Ironically both men did so against the same opponents. Angle did so against Lesnar whil Michaels did against Cena. In 2005 they fought each other so we can both attribute it to both men being so talented. I agree with the 2004 match of the year. But in 2007 and 2008 Michaels winning it was ludicrous. You've already agreed with me on the 2006 one. I can name a handful of matches better than that crap with Flair in 2008 though.

HBK has also told McMahon he doesn't want the title, and it;s been that way for a while now.

If he did have it he'd be a liability to the company because he can't work house shows and works a limited schedule as is. He knows this which is why he doesn't want it. Gotta give him credit for that.

I'm sure we will at one point.

I look forward to that day.

 

[Uncle Sam]

Your screen name is HBK-aholic. HBK-aholic. HBK. Aholic. Just sayin'.

Just thinking about Michaels' career, I'm trying to think the amount of good matches Shawn has had. It's probably a lot. His ones with Cena recently have been classic. I'm sure the match with Undertaker at WrestleMania will be remarkable. In fact, it's quite likely that Shawn has had more quality matches than Kurt.

Considering Kurt's disadvantages though, I'd say they're about on par. Angle's been playing this game for a much shorter time than Shawn. He had a back injury, too. He just wasn't a girl about it. No, he was a man about it. He downed a jug of painkillers and got the fuck on with it. He didn't lose his smile. He never had one. He also had the best street fight of all time at King of the Ring 2001. His matches with Jarrett were also immensely enjoyable - I actually got to see it happen live. It was beautiful.

They're both pretty awesome. On a personal level, I prefer Angle. He's delusional, sure. He's in TNA, sure. I just prefer him though. His style, his character... whatever.

 

[klunderbunker]

Ok to begin with, you're using the Power Pro Wrestling Title as a world title? In that arugment, Nick Dinsmore is ten time world champion and a 12 time tag champion. The NWA Title wasn't a world title when he won it so in reality it's 8-4 and the WCW title is debatable as the company wasn't even in business at the time.

Moving on, Angle was an amateur wrestler before he got to WWE. So what? Eric Bischoff sold meat before he got into wrestling. Hulk Hogan was a bass player. We're talking about their pro days. Sure Angle was a great amateur. Means he got pushed earlier than Shawn did. Had Kurt not had that background, sure he would have been successful, but he would have spent the same time that Michaels did climbing the ladder during the early 90s. Angle is the better wrestler, Shawn is the better performer. Kurt is currently dominating the minor leagues. I get that TNA is the 2nd biggest company there is, but that's a very distant second. If you honestly believe that the TNA title means even half as much as a WWE title, I can't help you because you're too far gone. You throw in what Shawn would have won had he not gotten hurt and this isn't even close.

 

[HBK-aholic]

[QUOTE="The Hardcore Legend" Christian Battlez;912977]Well Kurt wasn't involved with pro wrestling until 2000. Shawn had won four of his match of the years by then. In 2003 Angle had the winner and runner up match and in 2007 Shawn accomplished the same thing. Ironically both men did so against the same opponents. Angle did so against Lesnar whil Michaels did against Cena. In 2005 they fought each other so we can both attribute it to both men being so talented. I agree with the 2004 match of the year. But in 2007 and 2008 Michaels winning it was ludicrous. You've already agreed with me on the 2006 one. I can name a handful of matches better than that crap with Flair in 2008 though. [/QUOTE]

A wrestling match is supposed to engage the fan, make them feel something, make it seem real. I challenge you to find me a match from that year that did it better than the HBK, Flair match. No, this match wasn't technically amazing, but since when does a match need to be? The emotion felt from this match was amazing, it had fans in tears. It was truely a great match.

If he did have it he'd be a liability to the company because he can't work house shows and works a limited schedule as is. He knows this which is why he doesn't want it. Gotta give him credit for that.

Exactly, he knows he wouldn't be a great champion now. But I'm simply saying that you don't know what would happen if he wanted to be champion at the moment - he could get the belt for all we know.

I look forward to that day.

Your screen name is HBK-aholic. HBK-aholic. HBK. Aholic. Just sayin'.

 

[Christian Battlez]

Ok to begin with, you're using the Power Pro Wrestling Title as a world title? In that arugment, Nick Dinsmore is ten time world champion and a 12 time tag champion.

TNA recognizes it as well.

The NWA Title wasn't a world title when he won it so in reality it's 8-4 and the WCW title is debatable as the company wasn't even in business at the time.

Yes it was his NWA title reign came in a triple threat victory over Sting and Christian at which point it WAS considered a world championship. The NWA withdrew their name at a later point from TNA and they had to have him win another match to get the gold he just won. TNA recognizes the reign as do most people. The WCW title reign counts because if anything it would just be a fifth WWE title reign. WWE had the rights to WCW and the title was a world title at the time. So its 9 if you don't count the PPW title.

Moving on, Angle was an amateur wrestler before he got to WWE. So what? Eric Bischoff sold meat before he got into wrestling. Hulk Hogan was a bass player. We're talking about their pro days. Sure Angle was a great amateur. Means he got pushed earlier than Shawn did. Had Kurt not had that background, sure he would have been successful, but he would have spent the same time that Michaels did climbing the ladder during the early 90s. Angle is the better wrestler, Shawn is the better performer. Kurt is currently dominating the minor leagues. I get that TNA is the 2nd biggest company there is, but that's a very distant second. If you honestly believe that the TNA title means even half as much as a WWE title, I can't help you because you're too far gone. You throw in what Shawn would have won had he not gotten hurt and this isn't even close.

Its not fair to say Hogan played Bass and Bischoff sold meat so what? Because Angle wrestled for our country. Thus he didn't have the extra time on his career Michaels did. You wanna use the injury argument for Michaels fine. He lost 6 years. Angle has been wrestling for 9 years. Michaels has for 25 and if you take off the 6 from the injury you have 16. Twice as long as Angle even though he missed time. Angle missed more time than Michaels. Michaels had more time to build a legendary career and Angle outdid him in less time. Thats pretty epic. As far as TNA goes if it weren't for Angle they wouldn't have quadrupled revenue and brought in the highest rating for Impact in history during a segment Angle was a part of. So he is single handedly making TNA a competitor. While WWE loses ratings. Hmmm TNA keeps improving WWE continues to lose viewers oh my gosh what would happen then? If you give Angle the extra 7 years Michaels had it isn't even close.

 

[JerryvonKramer]

Angle isn't better than Michaels

He is.

Oh and please tell me you're not naive enough to believe the amount of title reigns shows how good a wrestler is

I agree title reigns mean nothing. Like I've said many times, people like Ted DiBiase and Mr. Perfect were never world champs but they are still all-time greats. What matters is work-rate, drawing power, overness, ability to work the mic, entertainment and crowd reaction, more on that here. You shouldn't measure wrestlers by amount of titles or 5* matches. Steamboat was easily a better worker than either HBK or Angle, DiBiase was easily better on the mic and certainly more effective as a heel, but both had fewer titles and 5* matches. You can't really use "accomplishments" like that as a yardstick in wrestling. You have to look at the full picture. We know where that leads, but it makes for much more interesting discussion than throwing pointless stats at each other.

Do you think Flair is the best of all time?

Of course Flair is the best of all time. He was the last traveling NWA champion. He could carry ANYONE, including people like Lex Luger, to a decent **** match -- a tremendous worker and seller of moves. He was dynamite on the mic: his best promos can only be rivaled by the Rock. AWESOME as the cocky, cheating, cowardly heel, and pretty good as the legendary "wild" face. Leader of the greatest stable in wrestling history.

He wrestled EVERYONE from Jack Brisco, Andre the Giant, Wahoo McDaniel, The Von Erichs, Dory Funk, and Terry Funk to Ricky Steamboat, Dusty Rhodes, and Magnum TA to Sting, Vader, and Hogan to Bret Hart, Curt Hennig, and Randy Savage to HHH, Mick Foley, The Undertaker, and HBK -- he's done it ALL. And no one else can say that. NO ONE! The man is a wrestling god.

Are you gonna sit there and have the audacity to even mention HBK in the same breath as Flair? Different leagues my friend. HBK is good in his own way, but he just can't compare his career to Flair's, no one can -- and they'll tell you that themselves. Flair is the wrestler's wrestler, he's the the man, do you understand? Diamonds are forever and so is Ric Flair!

Whoooooooo!

 

[Christian Battlez]

A wrestling match is supposed to engage the fan, make them feel something, make it seem real. I challenge you to find me a match from that year that did it better than the HBK, Flair match. No, this match wasn't technically amazing, but since when does a match need to be? The emotion felt from this match was amazing, it had fans in tears. It was truely a great match.

The Edge vs Undertaker match from the same card. It had everyone in the citrus bowl in my hometown on the edge of their seats. We all thought the streak was over. There was insane energy in the arena for the Flair/HBK match believe me. But the energy was higher during the Edge/Taker match because we knew Flair was gonna lose to begin with. It had fans in tears not because of the match but because Flair was retiring.

 

[klunderbunker]

They're going to hype Angle to no end. Do you even know what that company is? A regional promotion that is lucky to get to three states. If you believe that because TNA tells you to, that's very sad and I'm sorry you're that impressionable.

Really? That's most odd because according to every other source I can find, the NWA lost world title status before the original ECW was formed.

Look, it's obvious that you don't know what you're talkinga bout. Yes, Angle has more accolades. Using your deluded logic, Verne Gagne and Ric Flair are the greatest wrestlers of all time. You basing the ratings differences on Shawn Michales, a guy not even in the main event right now, amazes me to no end. Learn something about wrestling and get back to me.

 

[Christian Battlez]

They're going to hype Angle to no end. Do you even know what that company is? A regional promotion that is lucky to get to three states. If you believe that because TNA tells you to, that's very sad and I'm sorry you're that impressionable.

TNA is huge all over the world. They may only be big on the southeast here in the states. But they have huge followings in Canada,Austrailia,England,Japan. I could go on and on.

Really? That's most odd because according to every other source I can find, the NWA lost world title status before the original ECW was formed.

When the NWA Championship was with TNA it was regranted world title status. Then when it was retired by Angle and combined with ROH it was once again brought back down below that level.

Look, it's obvious that you don't know what you're talkinga bout. Yes, Angle has more accolades. Using your deluded logic, Verne Gagne and Ric Flair are the greatest wrestlers of all time. You basing the ratings differences on Shawn Michales, a guy not even in the main event right now, amazes me to no end. Learn something about wrestling and get back to me.

So who is the best then smartass? If you can't use accolades and you can't use drawing ability then how in the blue hell do you gage who is better? I guess its all heresay and opinionation.

EDIT: I think you were saying PPW is a small regional company not TNA sorry for the misunderstanding.lol

 

[Christian Battlez]

This is for KB Credit Wikipedia.

In 2004, NWA-TNA, now known as Total Nonstop Action Wrestling, withdrew from the NWA, but retained the rights to use the NWA World Heavyweight Championship and NWA World Tag Team Championship on their shows. TNA could use the titles any way they saw fit while not incurring the rule of the NWA Board of Directors. While these titles were still defended in several NWA territories and feds, they were exclusive to TNA. Because of TNA's success on Spike TV, Pro Wrestling Illustrated (PWI) (as of the August 2006 issue) re-instated "world title status" back to both Heavyweight and Tag Team belts. The agreement ended on May 13, 2007 with the NWA stripping the TNA-crowned champions of their titles.


See it does count. Next time do some dam research.

 

[klunderbunker]

Sure TNA is huge. The PPW company isn't. If you're going based off of that, then I'll make my own title and become a champion. Regional titles mean shit nationwide and that is fact.

Really? If that's teh case then how come according to PWI, the company that makes the lists of recognized titles, he has 8 total listed: 4 WWE, 1 WHC in WWE, 1 WCW, and 2 TNA. I see no NWA in there at all.

Sure it's opinion. Also, you might notice I never once said that Angle was better. I never said Shawn was better either. If I had to pick one, I'd go with Shawn but it's incredibly close.

 

[HBK-aholic]

He is.

Why's that, exactly?

I agree title reigns mean nothing. Like I've said many times, people like Ted DiBiase and Mr. Perfect were never world champs but they are still all-time greats. What matters is work-rate, drawing power, overness, ability to work the mic, entertainment and crowd reaction, more on that here. You shouldn't measure wrestlers by amount of titles or 5* matches. Steamboat was easily a better worker than either HBK or Angle, DiBiase was easily better on the mic and certainly more effective as a heel, but both had fewer titles and 5* matches. You can't really use "accomplishments" like that as a yardstick in wrestling. You have to look at the full picture. We know where that leads, but it makes for much more interesting discussion than throwing pointless stats at each other.

I disagree with you regarding 5* matches - that's one thing we can base solely on a wrestlers ability, with no arguments. The arguments stem from personal opinions of course, but I think it is important. Shawn has had many more 5* matches than Angle, and the majority of fans agree with that. Using this, it would show that Shawn is a better wrestler.

Of course Flair is the best of all time. He was the last traveling NWA champion. He could carry ANYONE, including people like Lex Luger, to a decent **** match -- a tremendous worker and seller of moves. He was dynamite on the mic: his best promos can only be rivaled by the Rock. AWESOME as the cocky, cheating, cowardly heel, and pretty good as the legendary "wild" face. Leader of the greatest stable in wrestling history.

He wrestled EVERYONE from Jack Brisco, Andre the Giant, Wahoo McDaniel, The Von Erichs, Dory Funk, and Terry Funk to Ricky Steamboat, Dusty Rhodes, and Magnum TA to Sting, Vader, and Hogan to Bret Hart, Curt Hennig, and Randy Savage to HHH, Mick Foley, The Undertaker, and HBK -- he's done it ALL. And no one else can say that. NO ONE! The man is a wrestling god.

Are you gonna sit there and have the audacity to even mention HBK in the same breath as Flair? Different leagues my friend. HBK is good in his own way, but he just can't compare his career to Flair's, no one can -- and they'll tell you that themselves. Flair is the wrestler's wrestler, he's the the man, do you understand? Diamonds are forever and so is Ric Flair!

Whoooooooo!

Wow a Flair fan? I thought we'd died out.

 

[Christian Battlez]

Sure TNA is huge. The PPW company isn't. If you're going based off of that, then I'll make my own title and become a champion. Regional titles mean shit nationwide and that is fact.

I noticed afterward which you were referring to and edited the post.

Really? If that's teh case then how come according to PWI, the company that makes the lists of recognized titles, he has 8 total listed: 4 WWE, 1 WHC in WWE, 1 WCW, and 2 TNA. I see no NWA in there at all.

I already posted the information.

Sure it's opinion. Also, you might notice I never once said that Angle was better. I never said Shawn was better either. If I had to pick one, I'd go with Shawn but it's incredibly close.

I agree it would be close and based on my opinion Kurt Angle is the best ever bar none.

 

[itzLEEyuhBITCH]

Kurt is better than Shawn...in-ring, on the mic, kayfabe/non kayfabe accomplishments, everything. Its a fact...Shawn would tell you that himself.

 

[klunderbunker]

Another point I'd like to ask you about. WHen exactly did Kurt Angle win the NWA World Title? I've been looking and looking and I can't find anytime when he ever won that championship. Most odd indeed.

Anyway, back to the topic as we're boardering on spam here. I'd go with Shawn just by a hair because he wasn't rushed. Kurt got what he got because of his background mainly. Neither have proven to be big draws in WWE where it truly counts, but Shawn has the longevity, which means a lot to me. He's been doing big things for longer than Kurt's whole career. As far as in ring, I'd go with Kurt, but overall I'd take Shawn. He's excellent in the ring and to me, much better on the mic.

 

[itzLEEyuhBITCH]

Another point I'd like to ask you about. WHen exactly did Kurt Angle win the NWA World Title? I've been looking and looking and I can't find anytime when he ever won that championship. Most odd indeed.

Anyway, back to the topic as we're boardering on spam here. I'd go with Shawn just by a hair because he wasn't rushed. Kurt got what he got because of his background mainly. Neither have proven to be big draws in WWE where it truly counts, but Shawn has the longevity, which means a lot to me. He's been doing big things for longer than Kurt's whole career. As far as in ring, I'd go with Kurt, but overall I'd take Shawn. He's excellent in the ring and to me, much better on the mic.

TNA's World Title used to be the NWA World Title...Angle was the last to win it before they changed it to the TNA's world title as NWA took their title back or something like that.


Angle > HBK...coming from a fan of both.

 

[Christian Battlez]

Another point I'd like to ask you about. WHen exactly did Kurt Angle win the NWA World Title? I've been looking and looking and I can't find anytime when he ever won that championship. Most odd indeed.

He won it in a Triple Threat Match with Sting and Christian in the last NWA title match in TNA. Angle made Sting tap at the same time Sting pinned Christian. The ref declared Sting tapped first and named Angle the winner. TNA stripped Angle of the title on Impact and put him in King of the Mountain with a chance to win it back at Slammiversary.

Anyway, back to the topic as we're boardering on spam here. I'd go with Shawn just by a hair because he wasn't rushed. Kurt got what he got because of his background mainly. Neither have proven to be big draws in WWE where it truly counts, but Shawn has the longevity, which means a lot to me. He's been doing big things for longer than Kurt's whole career. As far as in ring, I'd go with Kurt, but overall I'd take Shawn. He's excellent in the ring and to me, much better on the mic.

I find Angle to be exceptional on the mic and better than Michaels especially at this point. But its an opinion and your definetly entitled to it. As for longevity I don't like that your counting points against Kurt for not wrestling as long as Michaels. If anything he should be praised for accomplishing more in less time.

 

[Captain Bean]

nice little heated debate u got going on here. i would say hbk to be honest. hes had more 5* matches as the PWI and match of the year proves. angle has has more championships but had hbk jumped ship to tna im guessing he would have at least a couple more title reigns to his name. in the angle v hbk match at wm 21 id say angle probably outshined hbk, but overall id still go with hbk.